Topic: 2 Zelda's on DS?

[Myxtika1 Azn]

What is this word "rendered" that you guys are talking about?  Isn't anything image that can be seen on the screen rendered?

[thepoga]

I think what they mean is "pre-rendered" sprites. It's where they made the sprites by taking the images from CGI models.

[Pale]

yeah sorry....referring to pre rendered as poga said...

[KDR_11k]

"rendered" as opposed to "hand painted". A lawyer would argue that a painting is a rendering as well but I think we had a similar semantics debade about FMV vs. video file playback some time ago.

Pale: I dunno about DKC since I've never played it but MvsDK was definitely weaker than DK'94. Either way, I think the rendered sprites hurt the game's atmosphere.

[couchmonkey]

I have to admit, something about the pre-rendered sprites in Mario vs. DK brought the game down in my opinion too.  But having said that, I like seeing 2D game graphics done in all formats.  I think Donkey Kong Country, Yoshi's Story and Sabre Wulf look great with pre-rendered sprites,  I think Alien Hominid and Yoshi Touch n' Go and Capcom vs. SNK look great with traditional sprites, and I think Goemon's Great Adventure and Viewtiful Joe look great with 3D graphics.

As for a new Zelda, I'll take absolutely anything Nintendo gives me.  I would kind of like to see them try something that combines different perspectives.  Maybe like Paper Mario, only the camera could switch to a totally overhead view in certain puzzle situations.

[Ian Sane]

I've noticed that pre-rendered graphics look great on the SNES but look like ass on the GBA.  I imagine it has to do with brightness required for GBA games.  Pre-rendered sprites look best with more shadows.

I consider Super Mario RPG to be the best looking game ever made.  It just looks PERFECT and it uses pre-rendered sprites.  So I don't have a problem with pre-rendered sprites in general.  But there's a certain mood and setting that it works better with.  MvsDK did NOT have the correct mood and setting.  In that case it looked out of place.  I think it's mostly because the box art had flat cartoon art so the style they went with in the game didn't fit the style they used in the design.  There wasn't as much detail either.  It has to be just so and Nintendo didn't get it right with MvsDK.  It's like how FMV can work great but Nintendo royally goofed it in Super Mario Sunshine.

Anyway I prefer pre-rendered sprites for a 2D game over polygons for a 2D game because of two reasons.  First of all pre-rendered sprites look much smoother and don't look as blocky.  Second sprites allow for better animation.  They use frame-by-frame so we don't have as weird pantomime crap like we see often with polygons.  You also don't have to worry about how the polygons interact with each other.  There's less clipping and if there is something like light or rain you don't have to worry about it interacting with the polygon in a weird manner.  With sprites if you want the character to enter the light you just make another lighter sprite.  Though not as realistic it allows for consistency so you don't have the whole look ruined due to random goofs.

[darknight06]

"I've noticed that pre-rendered graphics look great on the SNES but look like ass on the GBA. I imagine it has to do with brightness required for GBA games. Pre-rendered sprites look best with more shadows."

The resolution plays a significant part of that too.  Part of the reason DKC on GBA looked worse in some respects have everything to do with the 64 vertical pixel difference between the SNES and the GBA.  Make the sprites too big and you'll have a situation similar to what Mega Man and Bass suffered through to an extent on the GBA, graphics taking up too much screen real estate. (though I will give them credit for some clever cropping)  Technically speaking, there was no reason for DKC to come out inferior looking given the hardware spec is a bit more than that of an SNES, other than the GBA screen.  Now the DS takes the brightness and color issue out of it since it's backlit, so if they were to do something like this on there instead, it SHOULD be every bit as good, if not FAR superior to the SNES.  

I actually have to agree with you on MvDK's style.  What that game needed was a solidly drawn true 2D cel aninated look to it instead of the 3D rendering they did.  Yeah, it looked slick but it had no life to it.  It kinda felt like, "here's your graphics" instead of "here's your world."

I can give you another reason to like sprites over polys in a 2D world.  Sprite collision detection is just boxes, 3D models need collision spheres which can be a lot more iffy at times.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Quote
Anyway I prefer pre-rendered sprites for a 2D game over polygons for a 2D game because of two reasons.  First of all pre-rendered sprites look much smoother and don't look as blocky.  Second sprites allow for better animation.  They use frame-by-frame so we don't have as weird pantomime crap like we see often with polygons.

Back in my day, we had to live with a four frame walk cycle!  Sometimes our sprites would change shape for no apparent reason!

Ah, Cranky Kong -- where would I be without you?  And I'm not talking about the new disgustingly helpful Cranky Kong, either.  "Don't worry boys, you'll get better."  Ugh.

[PaLaDiN]

They bastardized Cranky Kong? When did this happen?

[darknight06]

Rare did it on the GBA DKCs.

[KDR_11k]

I can give you another reason to like sprites over polys in a 2D world. Sprite collision detection is just boxes, 3D models need collision spheres which can be a lot more iffy at times.

Bullshit. To your physics engine there is no difference between sprites and models, if you don't have a third dimension there is no reason to use three-dimensional collision shapes. You'd still have your hitboxes. Works the other way around as well, Doom doesn't have hitboxes despite using sprites, it uses cylinders.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Quote
Originally posted by: darknight06
Rare did it on the GBA DKCs.

I was actually thinking Namco with their disgustingly pleasant Cranky in Donkey Konga, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[thepoga]

man, visiting cranky kong on DKC was the best.

[Kirby (cheat wizard)]

Going back a little bit: MvsDK and DKC may look bad  on GBA or GBA SP but they looks great on the DS!

[KDR_11k]

Eh? I didn't see any improvement from the DS.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Its maybe better on the DS because of the brighter screen.