Topic: Final Wii U Controller to Use Traditional Analog Sticks?

[Adrock]

I think they're specifically referring to fighting games, namely Capcom vs. SNK 2 and possibly Soul Calibur II.

[broodwars]

I personally started to lose faith in Nintendo's dedication to excellent controls as soon as they started mapping simple button presses to waggle.  I lost that faith altogether when Nintendo forced Retro studios to implement mandatory waggle into DKCR's pixel-perfect platforming for the sheer purpose of having commercials featuring guys in horrible gorilla costumes shaking the Wiimote.  Allowing Sakamoto free reign to force stiff and increasingly painful NES-style control on the player in Metroid Other M didn't help, either.  Hell, letting Sakamoto anywhere near that project didn't help in general.

[Ian Sane]

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

The DS didn't get really good until developers essentially pretended the touch screen didn't exist and just made "normal" games.  Then Nintendo suddenly decided this was no good and shoe-horned horrible broken controls into Zelda to "prove" the concept.  It isn't like there are DS games that make you say "man, I can't imagine what videogames would be like without a second screen."  The best example of a new feature being immediately proven is the analog stick.  Super Mario 64 comes out and we're wondering how we could ever do controls in a 3D game with anything but.  Practically every N64 that came out after used the stick and with Nintendo's games you couldn't imagine them without it.  It was just instantly the new standard.

Nintendo had the GC/GBA connectivity and it never really went anywhere.  You could tell from the games they did make that they had to struggle to think of any ideas for it.  They were all gung-ho about a Pac-Man game that was such a minor title they gave it away for FREE.  You don't keep such a non-marketable idea around unless you're short on ideas.  They came up with the concept and assumed it would inspire them and it sure as hell didn't.  Then they did a similar idea with the DS and the first year or so of the DS was like some sick joke.  Nearly every game was some forced half-baked nonsense.

Now they're bringing it back to consoles.  If this concept was so inspiring then the ideas would be coming out like a faucet.  They didn't on the Cube and they didn't on the DS so WHY NOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT?  It's the same damn thing they have struggled to come up with ideas for, to the point that they made Zelda play like **** to try to force it.  Compare to the analog stick or the SNES L&R buttons.  The ideas just came almost effortlessly for those controller innovations.

What we're going to get is status screens and maps on the tablet.  We're going to have games that use the normal controls for 90% of it and then have some arbitrary point where you have to touch the screen.  We'll get some forced usage that makes some games frustrating to play.  Don't expect anything beyond what we got on the DS.  If they had brilliant Mario 64 calibre ideas they would have used them ten years ago!  They didn't because these ideas don't exist, or at the very least Nintendo can't think of them.  They're not going to go from forced nonsense like Phantom Hourglass to sublime dual screen mastery just because this is now on a console.

[Adrock]

The World Ends With You begs to differ.

When developers create games specifically with the touch screen in mind, they can make truly great things. Same with motion controls. They have to commit to it though. And once again, "not for Ian" doesn't mean "bad."

Also, how are you not getting the idea behind using the controller as the main screen? When your girlfriend wants to watch Keeping Up With The Kardashians, you can let play Mario instead.

[NWR_insanolord]

It's like me and Adrock are long lost twins, as we always seem to be agreeing with each other. Yes, there are a lot of games that do touch controls well. The key is not to force the issue.

I completely agree with you, Ian and broodwars, that the forced waggle that a lot of Wii games used was an awful design choice. A lot of that, though, was forced upon them by the controller they had to work with (although it doesn't excuse the lack of a Classic Controller option in some of those games).

On a lot of different levels, the Wii's main problem was a lack of foresight on Nintendo's part. In terms of online play, storage, hardware design and controls, Nintendo made decisions early on that ended up severely limiting what the system could do. Before NinSage or whomever criticizes me for being anti-Nintendo, I should say that despite all that the Wii is probably my favorite Nintendo console ever, but that doesn't change the fact that it could have been so much more.

That's why it's comforting to see that Nintendo seems to be learning from their mistakes. Most of what they've done and said so far with the 3DS and Wii U indicates that they've taken the criticism to heart, and are trying to fix those things. The Wii U controller can do a whole lot of different things, giving developers, both Nintendo's own and those of third parties, options. The hardware seems to be a lot better thought out this time around, and everything Nintendo's saying gives me confidence that they really have learned.

I can't wait to get my hands on the thing in two weeks.

[Oblivion]

You going to E3? Jealous.

[Caterkiller]

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

The DS didn't get really good until developers essentially pretended the touch screen didn't exist and just made "normal" games.  Then Nintendo suddenly decided this was no good and shoe-horned horrible broken controls into Zelda to "prove" the concept.  It isn't like there are DS games that make you say "man, I can't imagine what videogames would be like without a second screen."  The best example of a new feature being immediately proven is the analog stick.  Super Mario 64 comes out and we're wondering how we could ever do controls in a 3D game with anything but.  Practically every N64 that came out after used the stick and with Nintendo's games you couldn't imagine them without it.  It was just instantly the new standard.

Nintendo had the GC/GBA connectivity and it never really went anywhere.  You could tell from the games they did make that they had to struggle to think of any ideas for it.  They were all gung-ho about a Pac-Man game that was such a minor title they gave it away for FREE.  You don't keep such a non-marketable idea around unless you're short on ideas.  They came up with the concept and assumed it would inspire them and it sure as hell didn't.  Then they did a similar idea with the DS and the first year or so of the DS was like some sick joke.  Nearly every game was some forced half-baked nonsense.

Now they're bringing it back to consoles.  If this concept was so inspiring then the ideas would be coming out like a faucet.  They didn't on the Cube and they didn't on the DS so WHY NOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT?  It's the same damn thing they have struggled to come up with ideas for, to the point that they made Zelda play like **** to try to force it.  Compare to the analog stick or the SNES L&R buttons.  The ideas just came almost effortlessly for those controller innovations.

What we're going to get is status screens and maps on the tablet.  We're going to have games that use the normal controls for 90% of it and then have some arbitrary point where you have to touch the screen.  We'll get some forced usage that makes some games frustrating to play.  Don't expect anything beyond what we got on the DS.  If they had brilliant Mario 64 calibre ideas they would have used them ten years ago!  They didn't because these ideas don't exist, or at the very least Nintendo can't think of them.  They're not going to go from forced nonsense like Phantom Hourglass to sublime dual screen mastery just because this is now on a console.

Ok what is your ideal controller then? What in the world should developers do to improve controllers? More buttons, more sticks? seriously what? Or are we just at perfection at this point?

If developers finally realized the second screen doesn't have to have touch controls for every game, why would it be a problem now? Just being able to look at maps and switch items on the fly without slowing the pace of the game is huge for me. Tell me how much you enjoyed taking on and off the Iron Boots in OoT? You like Xenoblade don't you? How much did you enjoy bringing up a map or new screen to check something minor? If I could still walk and explore while just checking that stuff it would make things so much convenient. That is just as much a natural progression as the analog stick.

And no, after getting used to Kid Icarus, I learned how to relax my hands(No different than destroying my thumb on the control stick during SF64 and Mario Party when I was younger), I can play without the stand, and understand totally why duel analog would not work for this game. Uprising is an Epic game that took me about 5 levels to really get into, but after that I got it. Maybe you don't see cause you refuse to play the game, but with a little time the control scheme is perfect.

When the Analog stick and 3D games became the norm, I had a heck of a time walking narrow paths, walking slowly or judging distances. So jumping into that wasn't just naturally intuitive for everyone, it's the reason why 3D Mario sales so much lower than 2D Mario.  Playing Kid Icarus is like that. One has to just give it a chance and i'm glad people are from the looks of it's sales.


Granted not every game with a touch screen is great. I enjoyed Spirit Tracks for a while before I got bored, but I do understand fighting the controls with that game. Even with Nintendo the new technology caused a knee jerk reaction, lately things have just gotten better and better, I don't see why the trend wouldn't just continue.

[tendoboy1984]

Ok what is your ideal controller then? What in the world should developers do to improve controllers? More buttons, more sticks? seriously what? Or are we just at perfection at this point?

If developers finally realized the second screen doesn't have to have touch controls for every game, why would it be a problem now? Just being able to look at maps and switch items on the fly without slowing the pace of the game is huge for me. Tell me how much you enjoyed taking on and off the Iron Boots in OoT? You like Xenoblade don't you? How much did you enjoy bringing up a map or new screen to check something minor? If I could still walk and explore while just checking that stuff it would make things so much convenient. That is just as much a natural progression as the analog stick.

And no, after getting used to Kid Icarus, I learned how to relax my hands(No different than destroying my thumb on the control stick during SF64 and Mario Party when I was younger), I can play without the stand, and understand totally why duel analog would not work for this game. Uprising is an Epic game that took me about 5 levels to really get into, but after that I got it. Maybe you don't see cause you refuse to play the game, but with a little time the control scheme is perfect.

When the Analog stick and 3D games became the norm, I had a heck of a time walking narrow paths, walking slowly or judging distances. So jumping into that wasn't just naturally intuitive for everyone, it's the reason why 3D Mario sales so much lower than 2D Mario.  Playing Kid Icarus is like that. One has to just give it a chance and i'm glad people are from the looks of it's sales.


Granted not every game with a touch screen is great. I enjoyed Spirit Tracks for a while before I got bored, but I do understand fighting the controls with that game. Even with Nintendo the new technology caused a knee jerk reaction, lately things have just gotten better and better, I don't see why the trend wouldn't just continue.

The main advantage I can see of having a second screen on the controller is the ability to instantly access content that would otherwise be used in a pause menu. And for a game like GTA, having the huge city map in the palm of your hands would be brilliant.

[Ceric]

Think about real life and what you use a second screen for.  GPS immediately comes to mind.   Giving people options is akin to giving people more ways to shoot themselves in the foot.  How can you reallly mess up controls with 2 buttons and a d-pad?  On the flipside its really hard to simulate a lot of different experiences that way.

As for the next evolution.  Controllerss that start off with no buttons and lower and raise there button areas in patterns and shapes determined by the developers.  Giving the feel of the different buttons how they want it to feel.  Same with tactile senses like clicky - squishy.

[Infinitys_End]

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

[Ceric]

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

I've got one that does induction charging so I just sit them on the pad when I'm done and there ready to go.

[tendoboy1984]

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

[Chozo Ghost]

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

How is swapping out rechargeable batteries any more convenient than swapping out regular batteries? Do you actually comprehend what he said?

[tendoboy1984]

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

How is swapping out rechargeable batteries any more convenient than swapping out regular batteries? Do you actually comprehend what he said?

Because you just buy one set of rechargeable batteries instead of constantly buying regular batteries over and over again. Saves money that way.

[Adrock]

The problem wasn't the price; it was the inconvenience of having to switch out batteries which you still have to do if the batteries are rechargeable.

[tendoboy1984]

The problem wasn't the price; it was the inconvenience of having to switch out batteries which you still have to do if the batteries are rechargeable.

Then maybe Nintendo should have made their own rechargeable battery packs, but Nyko beat them to the punch.

[nickmitch]

Nyko didn't beat Nintendo to the punch. Nintendo left the door open for them as a cost cutting measure.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

[tendoboy1984]

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

I never use the speaker because I can't stand the terrible sound quality. Rumble is essential for some games.

[nickmitch]

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

True. I guess I was thinking of why Nintendo didn't just include it to begin with. I think Nintendo does that solely to keep those companies alive.

[UncleBob]

Very happy with my Energizer induction charger.

[broodwars]

Well, I've found the ultimate way to avoid having battery issue with my Wiimote:  I just don't play Wii games.  I haven't had to change my Wiimote's batteries in years.   

In all seriousness, I don't think I've ever seen a controller drain batteries as quickly as the Wiimote does, especially with the Motion+ attached.  I hope that with the Wii U Nintendo would allow the tablet or Wiimote to charge by cable even if the system is off.  It's kind of annoying that my PS3 has to be on for my Dualshocks or Move controllers to charge.

[Adrock]

I recall reading the tablet controller has a wall charger. I hope I didn't just imagine that because I want it to be true. I'm not a fan of having to keep the PS3 to charge the Dualshock 3 either. It's usually not a big deal because I'll charge it while watching Netflix or something but it's mildly inconvenient and I'm not buying a charge stand.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The uMote has a charging stand/dock if the patents are to be believed.

So you should be able to dock your uMote (on the night stand) and charge it while you watch Netflix (in bed).

[NWR_insanolord]

That wouldn't be surprising after the charging stand they included with the 3DS. I love that thing; it's so simple and has to be pretty cheap to build, but it's a really nice touch and comes in handy.