Author Topic: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis  (Read 58830 times)

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Offline Talon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2005, 06:20:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Nile Boogie
"There currently are no plans for Nintendo Revolution to support high-definition video output. We have thoroughly considered the best means of video output for the system and are dedicated to delivering the best hardware possible to meet the demands of our consumers. Please stay tuned for more details on Nintendo Revolution to be revealed soon."

The wording of this is just vague enough for me to think that Nintendo has something up their sleeve. They have already stated that the 12cm disc would be HD (was this not reported on PGCs' front-page the night after XboX360 MTV crapfest), not my words, Nintendos. That has to mean something more than what we are seeing. Some kinda loop-hole or hidden message. Sound to me like they're coming up with a proprietary form of video output. As good as HD just not the same format.

Adding HD support to a console launching in 2006 can't cost THAT much more than a few dollars per unit , if that. You can buy a 27" brand X HDTV now for about $399.99, while my 27" Phillips cost $321.14 about three years ago. I plan on getting a HDTV as so as there is a reason for me (NFL Sunday Ticket I'm looking you're way)


Im sure that if the statement nintendo made about not supporting HD was taken out of context they would have said something by now to debunk it. And jugding by the consumer backlash i wouldnt be suprised if they did incorporate it afterall.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2005, 06:34:13 PM »
no hirez....free online....
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Offline Savior

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2005, 07:15:07 PM »
but it's obvious that Nintendo isn't in dire danger of disappearing due to financial insolvency.


ALOT of those Third Party games developed on the GBA... I wonder how would the GBA look without Third Parties? Not as economically succesfull for Nintendo.


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Offline nemo_83

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2005, 08:35:05 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Talon
Quote

Originally posted by: Nile Boogie
"There currently are no plans for Nintendo Revolution to support high-definition video output. We have thoroughly considered the best means of video output for the system and are dedicated to delivering the best hardware possible to meet the demands of our consumers. Please stay tuned for more details on Nintendo Revolution to be revealed soon."

The wording of this is just vague enough for me to think that Nintendo has something up their sleeve. They have already stated that the 12cm disc would be HD (was this not reported on PGCs' front-page the night after XboX360 MTV crapfest), not my words, Nintendos. That has to mean something more than what we are seeing. Some kinda loop-hole or hidden message. Sound to me like they're coming up with a proprietary form of video output. As good as HD just not the same format.

Adding HD support to a console launching in 2006 can't cost THAT much more than a few dollars per unit , if that. You can buy a 27" brand X HDTV now for about $399.99, while my 27" Phillips cost $321.14 about three years ago. I plan on getting a HDTV as so as there is a reason for me (NFL Sunday Ticket I'm looking you're way)


Im sure that if the statement nintendo made about not supporting HD was taken out of context they would have said something by now to debunk it. And jugding by the consumer backlash i wouldnt be suprised if they did incorporate it afterall.



The topic on this subject at nintendo.com is 178 pages long already.  That is not including a whole bunch of locked threads about it.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2005, 08:48:04 PM »
"The topic on this subject at nintendo.com is 178 pages long already. That is not including a whole bunch of locked threads about it."

Hopefully they'll notice that since there is still time to put in the feature.  If they're so worried about their precious 50 cents they can raise the price of the console 50 cents.  It's not like anyone would care if they did that.

The problem is that NOA is who would see the response on Nintendo.com but NCL is the one who makes the decisions.  NCL lives in a bubble called Japan and they base worldwide decisions on what's going on there.  In Japan this isn't as big of a deal.  This is largely a North American issue so it would be very surprising if NCL made a decision solely to appease a non-Japanese market.

Offline Talon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #155 on: June 13, 2005, 09:17:49 PM »
I dont see why if NOA sees the response they couldnt possibly pick up the phone to NCL and say

NOA: You idiots, look what you have done!! You have just created riots throught the USA and the rest of the territories besides Japan. Dont be such tightarses and pay the extra 50cents per console to incorporate HDTV
NCL: ME NO SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!! >_<
NCL: AND NO HDTV SUPPORT FOR YOU!!!
<beep> <beep> <beep> <beep>

Its funny though Nintendo might not be soley basing its decision on the Japanese market this time.  I have a feeling the european market has influenced this decision as well since both Japan and Europe havent embraced HDTV as USA has currently.  So HDTV although may be a feature used by MS and SONY to say why their consoles are better may not be utilized by the majority of video game console owners.  Maybe HDTV will be more viable in the generation after the one that is looming upon us when more people have adopted the technology.  
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Offline MrMojoRising

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #156 on: June 13, 2005, 10:50:18 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"The topic on this subject at nintendo.com is 178 pages long already. That is not including a whole bunch of locked threads about it."

Hopefully they'll notice that since there is still time to put in the feature.  If they're so worried about their precious 50 cents they can raise the price of the console 50 cents.  It's not like anyone would care if they did that.

The problem is that NOA is who would see the response on Nintendo.com but NCL is the one who makes the decisions.  NCL lives in a bubble called Japan and they base worldwide decisions on what's going on there.  In Japan this isn't as big of a deal.  This is largely a North American issue so it would be very surprising if NCL made a decision solely to appease a non-Japanese market.


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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2005, 01:45:25 AM »
You know, the GC's third party support sucks so bad I had to get a PS2. A fanboy might be able to ignore all the gaming glory that happens outside of his reach, claiming that only Nintendo can produce good games, but I certainly can't suppress my sanity enough to believe that. Also while a fanboy might be content with the stuff Nintendo delivers, I miss features the competition has. The PS2's memcards are HUGE compared to the GC's, for example. That goes for the competition, too. Sony's awful controller and interface design make me want to bash some heads into walls. HD is another quality of service feature (obviously not in Europe), omitting it means Nintendo believes more in profit than the quality of the game experience (well, obviously). Especially for split screen HD is almost a necessity. Nintendo always omits features they deem too expensive instead of striving for the perfect game experience (well, they are a corporation but people here claim they already have the best possible experience). This is like the worst kind of communism out there, Nintendo dictates what you want to play and you WANT it. Whatever happened to free will?

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2005, 07:06:51 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BigJim
Kairon, if your standard of success is Nintendo "surviving" then you're not thinking on the same wavelength as others here.

They don't just want a surviving Nintendo, they want a thriving one. Hot third party support is imperative to achieve that. Not many single 3rd party games move systems. But 3rd party games on the whole do. If I'm an RPG fan, I would scoff at the notion of even considering GameCube. Those handful of games wouldn't sustain me for the life of the system. Options are important. And big name releases like RE4 don't have to be events. Why shouldn't they be regular occurances?

These small, stupid decisions for short term profit don't help. Give the developers the OPTION of HD and let them decide if it's worth the "cost" or not. They want options just as we do. It's not even necessarily directly about "bragging rights" or marketshare either. Many of us simply don't want to shell out $600 or more for multiple consoles to play all the games we want to. There's nothing wrong with wanting better or equal 3rd party games, and there's certainly nothing wrong with not wanting to be overlooked altogether for games like we have been with GameCube.

Nintendo pigeonholed themselves into being the provider of "star power" and "safe" games... where games don't sell unless they have that classic Nintendo pixie dust sprinkled all over it, or has yet another famous IP on the box cover. That may be enough for YOU being strictly a "Nintendo fan." But more third party support would help break the mold and return more game options into their lineup... for the rest of us that don't buy consoles just for one developer.


[Note: this is no longer about HD support, but instead the question of whether Nintendo Fans should desire a Nintendo with more marketshare vs. being happy with Nintendo as long as they give everything they can to keep making great games]

I certainly don't seem to be on the same wavelength as others. Other people only seem to want to believe in Nintendo if Nintendo can give them the bragging rights of holding "X" market share and is better than "So-and-so" company.

But that's not what Nintendo's about. In fact, Nintendo is about the opposite: the pursuit of great games. The very fact that there are so many other game makers out there who can put out quality work is a testament to Nintendo's legacy as the only company in the 80's who realized that videogames needed to be held to a higher standard than knee-jerk commercialism. Nintendo is the ultimate reason why companies like Capcom, Konami, SquareEnix and Namco can exist, Nintendo created the environment for the nurturing of all these third party companies that seem to crowd them today.

And you seem to imply that a Nintendo Fan shouldn't have to buy another system. RIDICULOUS! The biggest Nintendo fan in the world should own ALL systems, because they'd be as dedicated to Nintendo's pursuit of quality games as Nintendo themself. They'd find new, innovative, and quality videogames wherever they are, on the XBOX 360, on the PC, on the CellPhone, on a Nintendo system. Because everything great about videogames today is in the vein of what Nintendo believes in: videogames as fun, innovation in more ways than one, new user experiences.

There are tons of developers out there who tie into the real meaning of what Nintendo has accomplished in the videogame industry. DMA (Rockstar North), after making Body Harvest and Space Station Silicon Valley, has proposed that games be culturally referential and, instead of being fantasy based, be a fantastical reflection of realism. Their attempts to build the best GTA they possibly can, while in a different style than Nintendo, is an honest attempt at doing their best to make the best game possible, something I'm sure Nintendo would support, even Miyamoto wasn't keen on their idea of what a videogame should be.

And I don't see why a Nintendo fan would care about the marketshare of just one company when Nintendo has given the videogame industry YEARS just to get to today, a time when quality is not the exception, but a mantra adopted by all, a time when there's more innovation than ever, from Nintendo or others, and a time when the videogame industry is not struggling because of it's failures, but ironically may just be a tad too successful.

To think that Nintendo's worth is directly proportional to their marketshare is false. Nintendo needed to use cartridges to make Mario 64 and Zelda 64 years before the CD technology could stream data that fast? so be it. We got the best games of our lives and Nintendo got 2nd place. What matters more?

A Nintendo Fan is strictly that, someone who believes in what Nintendo is, and what they're doing. At no point does this exclude them from buying any other systems. Heck, I'll buy an XBOX 360 if I have the money for it (which I probably never will, but that's a technicality). Why? Because there are developers out there who can share with me new gaming experiences, new gameplay, and plain old fun. What more could any Nintendo fan ask for?

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Offline nickmitch

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2005, 07:24:14 AM »
Well for MS and Sony to invest in HD gaming is just a smart move for them as both companies make HDTVs. They're just protecting their investment.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2005, 07:28:38 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You know, the GC's third party support sucks so bad I had to get a PS2. A fanboy might be able to ignore all the gaming glory that happens outside of his reach, claiming that only Nintendo can produce good games, but I certainly can't suppress my sanity enough to believe that. Also while a fanboy might be content with the stuff Nintendo delivers, I miss features the competition has. The PS2's memcards are HUGE compared to the GC's, for example. That goes for the competition, too. Sony's awful controller and interface design make me want to bash some heads into walls. HD is another quality of service feature (obviously not in Europe), omitting it means Nintendo believes more in profit than the quality of the game experience (well, obviously). Especially for split screen HD is almost a necessity. Nintendo always omits features they deem too expensive instead of striving for the perfect game experience (well, they are a corporation but people here claim they already have the best possible experience). This is like the worst kind of communism out there, Nintendo dictates what you want to play and you WANT it. Whatever happened to free will?


You've expressed the most perfect and most powerful free-will based action you can in our modern capitalism: you acted as an intelligent consumer, seeing both the good and the bad of any and all products you consider.

You also acted as a Nintendo fan who isn't trapped in the jaded mantra of "Nintendo or bust." The very existence of the videogame industry today is a testament to Nintendo of the 1980's. The proliferation of good third party developers is a direct result of Nintendo's determined push of quality instead of Atari's commercialism. The new experiences you seek in gaming are driven by the knowledge that games can always be more innovative, more interesting, and more fun... a knowledge that we wouldn't have if not for Miyamoto's legacy.

Nintendo is just one videogame company out of hundreds, and because of Nintendo's early victories against long odds, there are now other companies who can make games just as good as Nintendo can. There are companies out there who can innovate as much as Nintendo can. And there are games out there that Nintendo would never have thought up of, but surely approve of.

If anything, Nintendo is a perfect anti-communism. Nintendo is the agent of free-will within the videogame world: Nintendo's work in the 80's and 90's gave us a modern industry where we have choices. Nintendo's dictatorship of that era made sure that we'd have choices between quality third party games, instead of only bland movie spin-offs and consumeristic products.

It is indeed an actual testament to your Nintendo Fanboyism that you bought a PS2. Nintendo always professed to believe in innovation and quality, and the simple fact of the matter is that thanks to mature third companies that benefit from Nintendo's teachings, you can find a lot of those experiences in great gaming on a PS2, PC, or many other systems out there.

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Quote

That goes for the competition, too. Sony's awful controller and interface design make me want to bash some heads into walls. HD is another quality of service feature (obviously not in Europe), omitting it means Nintendo believes more in profit than the quality of the game experience (well, obviously)


Your ignoring so many things here! LOL. Sony's controller is a controller that IanSane would love: it maintains the vialbility of older genres of games that have continued to evolve, while at the same time trying to incorporate something new. Yes, the controller sucks, lol. Sony obviously doesn't have the talent Nintendo does in controller design. But let's not forget that Sony had the ergonomic "prong handles" at around the same time Nintendo did, Sony realized that two rumble motors would enhance the experience of force-feedback more than one would, and...well... I guess that Sony is still deluding themselves about analog buttons...LOL. I can't for the life of me do anything but laugh at the analog button concept... a friendly laugh, of course.

Meanwhile, Nintendo's stance on HD is instead Nintendo placing themselves in a commitment to their innovative software developmental efforts. Have you never heard of the general who crossed a river on boats, and then burned the boats so his men couldn't retreat? Obviously, without HD-definition, Nintendo (and third parties) will be forced to innovate, and they won't have the tempting distraction of trying to compete graphically, a distraction which would lead to a dead end because Nintendo will never beat Sony or Microsoft in such a technical field. It's funny, so many companies have tried to force bleeding edge graphics on the DS and the most fun I've had with mine has been crayola-like Pac-Pix and sprites-only Sprung.
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2005, 07:58:43 AM »
For me the fear is that Nintendo systems won't be worth buying or that Nintendo itself will wither and die due to ongoing mistakes.   Nintendo has been pulled off a few small store shelves in my city, and I've heard of Wal-Marts in other places selling off their GameCube stock, which I think is awful.  How can a company that sells its own hardware and publishes around 20 games a year survive if major retailers won't carry its products?  Imagine a Nintendo that becomes marginzalized like 3DO or NGage.  That's what I'm afraid of - and Nintendo's worth will go down in such a situation.  It won't be able to sustain the kind of gaming we've come to expect, and third party support will drop to sub-N64 levels.  I don't mind if Nintendo isn't first, but I do want a console that's worth my money.

I agree with your comment that Nintendo fans should be able, and should even want, to enjoy games on other consoles but it's not like new consoles are cheap.  For a lot of people it will come down to one or the other, and for multi-console owners, Nintendo may become the "expendable" one.  If it breaks down or you need quick cash, bye-bye Revolution.

I'd be happy if Nintendo simply earned more customers next generation.  It doesn't have to be first or even second to make me happy, just sell a few thousand more Revolutions than GameCubes.  I believe the lack of HDTV could prevent that from happening.
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Offline Mario

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2005, 08:13:30 AM »
I'd like to hear Iwata or Reggie comment on this.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2005, 08:15:08 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: couchmonkey
For me the fear is that Nintendo systems won't be worth buying or that Nintendo itself will wither and die due to ongoing mistakes.   Nintendo has been pulled off a few small store shelves in my city, and I've heard of Wal-Marts in other places selling off their GameCube stock, which I think is awful.  How can a company that sells its own hardware and publishes around 20 games a year survive if major retailers won't carry its products?  Imagine a Nintendo that becomes marginzalized like 3DO or NGage.  That's what I'm afraid of - and Nintendo's worth will go down in such a situation.  It won't be able to sustain the kind of gaming we've come to expect, and third party support will drop to sub-N64 levels.  I don't mind if Nintendo isn't first, but I do want a console that's worth my money.

I agree with your comment that Nintendo fans should be able, and should even want, to enjoy games on other consoles but it's not like new consoles are cheap.  For a lot of people it will come down to one or the other, and for multi-console owners, Nintendo may become the "expendable" one.  If it breaks down or you need quick cash, bye-bye Revolution.

I'd be happy if Nintendo simply earned more customers next generation.  It doesn't have to be first or even second to make me happy, just sell a few thousand more Revolutions than GameCubes.  I believe the lack of HDTV could prevent that from happening.


Now THAT, I can agree with.

There's no doubt that Nintendo has to try to keep up with today's industry, or they'll not only miss out on new gaming possibilities brought about by technology, but also not have the freedom to make games they way they want to. It certainly isn't the videogame industry of the 80's or even the 90's anymore. I don't envy Satoru Iwata, he's got his work cut out for him, and none of the immense resources that Sony or Microsoft has.

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Offline Pittbboi

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #164 on: June 14, 2005, 08:58:36 AM »
And that's my whole argument.  It would be nice, as a Nintendo fan, to see Nintendo back at number one (and not just for the bragging rights that you keep insisting, but because of the options it will have as the market leader). But I, and I'm sure a lot of people, wouldn't be any less satisfied if Nintendo just did better this generation, and not worse than the generation before. And in order for that to happen, Nintendo's going to have to stop caring about itself so much and focus a little bit more on what third parties may want (the same third parties that you admit Nintendo helped garnish). Because Nintendo may be the best, but Nintendo is not good enough to keep itself afloat on its own merits. And more than keeping itself afloat, Nintendo should want to keep it's fans happy by making their investment in the Revolution worth something more, and not just a tool to play Nintendo games.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #165 on: June 14, 2005, 09:22:37 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pittbboi
And that's my whole argument.  It would be nice, as a Nintendo fan, to see Nintendo back at number one (and not just for the bragging rights that you keep insisting, but because of the options it will have as the market leader). But I, and I'm sure a lot of people, wouldn't be any less satisfied if Nintendo just did better this generation, and not worse than the generation before. And in order for that to happen, Nintendo's going to have to stop caring about itself so much and focus a little bit more on what third parties may want (the same third parties that you admit Nintendo helped garnish). Because Nintendo may be the best, but Nintendo is not good enough to keep itself afloat on its own merits. And more than keeping itself afloat, Nintendo should want to keep it's fans happy by making their investment in the Revolution worth something more, and not just a tool to play Nintendo games.


That's where I have to disagree with you. I don't buy a Nintendo system to do anything BUT play the very best Nintendo has to offer. We're not Nintendo fans because Nintendo made compromises back in the day, we're Nintendo fans because Nintendo stuck to their guns and always did what was best for the games they wanted to make, no matter the risk. The fact that they were dominant for so long was a nice little side-benefit of the fact that they made great games.

Anyways, wasn't 10+ years of Nintendo dominance enough for anyone? lol.

It'd definitely be great for Nintendo to be more prevalent in the gaming world, but I hardly think sacrificing even a little of Nintendo's freedom to create and innovate is worth..what? niceties for us?

Besides, Nintendo as the market leader would probably be horrible for videogaming, as opposed to producing benefits like you imagine it will. Videogames have advanced so much that Nintendo doesn't have anywhere near the resources, the administrative capabilities, nor the know-how to be the caretaker for all of videogames. Nintendo as market leader worked in the 80's when videogames needed somebody with a vision to save the industry from destruction. And Nintendo had a good run. But even the Sega Genesis itself showed that modern gaming is just too big for any one company to keep track of, and especially when that company is Nintendo.

Should Nintendo pay attention to third parties and consumers? Yes. After all, these are their peers and the people who play games. But should these concerns trump Nintendo's freedom to make the games they think should be made? Definitely not.

And where does the HD issue stand here? If Nintendo doesn't intend to make 1080p games, then it's a waste of money to them. And third parties may want to take advantage of it, but Nintendo probably sees 1080p support as something that can distract companies from concentrating on new gameplay instead of slicker graphics, and something that can tempt developers to make "pretty" games instead of good ones.

That's probably what Nintendo's thinking: that if they want to make better games, 1080p support is not only a waste financially since HD is non-existent in Europe, Asia, and only 12.5% penetrated in the US... but it's also something that can tempt developers (like Nintendo) to spend resources on things OTHER than good games.

That's what I'm thinking their stance is (though this entire argument ignores the possibility of Nintendo offering another "type" of High Definition viewing (i.e. VR headsets, lol)). And love it or hate it, it seems to be in line with Nintendo doing their utmost best to try to make the best games they can. That's why I can live with it, because I believe that Nintendo has nothing but good intentions, lol.

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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Mario

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2005, 10:14:38 AM »
Quote

Besides, Nintendo as the market leader would probably be horrible for videogaming

I highly disagree, Nintendo as the market leader would mean ALL significant third party support. Best first party games + best third party games. Sony and Microsoft would be left with nothing but their pathetic first party games, we would only need to own one console.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #167 on: June 14, 2005, 10:16:45 AM »
And you seem to imply that a Nintendo Fan shouldn't have to buy another system. RIDICULOUS! The biggest Nintendo fan in the world should own ALL systems, because they'd be as dedicated to Nintendo's pursuit of quality games as Nintendo themself.

Theory, meet practice. I don't know how much disposable income you have for games but I certainly don't have enough to buy all consoles and I don't have the time to keep up with the news for each to make sure I don't miss any sleeper titles, etc.

It is indeed an actual testament to your Nintendo Fanboyism that you bought a PS2. Nintendo always professed to believe in innovation and quality, and the simple fact of the matter is that thanks to mature third companies that benefit from Nintendo's teachings, you can find a lot of those experiences in great gaming on a PS2, PC, or many other systems out there.

WTF? Are you now declaring Nintendo as the idea of good games? You sound almost as insane as Gamebasher by now, do you pray to Miyamoto every morning?

Have you never heard of the general who crossed a river on boats, and then burned the boats so his men couldn't retreat?

No but I remember the Führer who told his soldiers to hold Stalingrad until the last man instead of surrendering.

Obviously, without HD-definition, Nintendo (and third parties) will be forced to innovate, and they won't have the tempting distraction of trying to compete graphically, a distraction which would lead to a dead end because Nintendo will never beat Sony or Microsoft in such a technical field.

How does less resolution force you to innovate? Hell, you could restrict them to Atari 2600 level technology and they'd manage to produce the same tired old garbage every year. The problem is not the graphics, it's the managers being in charge. A manager has business training and does what business school taught him, which is minimize risks and maximize profits. Innovation is uncalculable but fails more often than not. Success would mean huge profits but failure huge losses and managers don't like to gamble. They might not be able to use graphics to sell their game anymore but does that mean they'd try to do something completely unproven, i.e. uncalculable? No, they'll just try to grab more popular licenses or something. Nintendo knows Miyamoto has a very high success rate at innovation. EA knows the same about Will Wright. But not everyone has a Shigeru Miyamoto or Will Wright, most have just a few mediocre (or even good) game designers without such a good track record and more importantly strict managers that won't allow for artistic freedom.
Not that it's bad that Miyamoto or Wright are hard to compete with. Every era and art has its grand masters, Miyamoto and Wright are some of the grand masters of videogames.

Besides, Nintendo as the market leader would probably be horrible for videogaming, as opposed to producing benefits like you imagine it will. Videogames have advanced so much that Nintendo doesn't have anywhere near the resources, the administrative capabilities, nor the know-how to be the caretaker for all of videogames.

Sony or MS clearly aren't putting in enough effort to count as the "caretakers" of gaming. They just provide the hardware, make sure users buy it and let others make games for their systems in exchange for a licensing fee. Nothing to take care of here. Noone needs to supervise the gaming market anyway, it works pretty well for itself. There is nobody who could regulate the PC games market yet it still exists. What might hurt gaming is Nintendo's arrogance but I think that happens to everyone who is in the lead. Honestly, was there ever ONE company that wasn't arrogant when they had the power? Power corrupts.

Besides, graphics and gameplay aren't mutually exclusive. Your artists aren't going to make the game more balanced in the time they don't spend on making assets, the most important part to making a good game is a good idea. Sure, more graphics mean higher dev costs and even more risk averse managers but seriously, you won't get these guys to approve innovation until you drop them down to ASCII graphics and games that take a month or two to develop.

What DOES work, as shown by the Playstation and DS, is forcing a new technology on them. They become afraid that their product will sell worse if it doesn't use the new tech so they try to make up a way to use it. Sure, most will try to make enhanced rehashes but many will see that their old ideas won't necessarily yield the same results as they previously did and will okay games they never would otherwise in order to find out what works and what doesn't.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2005, 10:23:58 AM »
"we're Nintendo fans because Nintendo stuck to their guns and always did what was best for the games they wanted to make, no matter the risk."

This sentence is so ironic.  This is exactly why I became a Nintendo fan and why I've been so critical of them in the last few years.  The problem is that in the last couple of years Nintendo has comprimised what's best for their games for money.  They don't take risks if it means they'll not make a profit for a quarter.  For example their reasoning for not going online was that it wasn't profitable.  It wasn't that it would comprimise their games or that online gaming has too much lag or anything like that.  The decision was made entirely because of money.  Mario Kart Double Dash was comprimised as it was limited to LAN only when if Nintendo was willing to take a bit of a risk it could have been online.

This HD stuff is the same way.  Their choice to not support it is entirely money driven and Rev games will be comprimised because of it.  It's not as crucial since it's only based on visuals but they're still cutting out a feature that directly affects games to save a couple of bucks.

Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2005, 10:31:02 AM »
Let's not make assumptions, Ian.

I'm not convinced that this is a profit issue... if it's a couple of bucks, why don't they just increase the price by a couple of bucks?
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Offline Mario

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2005, 10:32:29 AM »
Quote

Their choice to not support it is entirely money driven and Rev games will be comprimised because of it.

Will they really though? If HD makes games have a lower frame rate, like Bloodworth suggested, then I think it's a step backwards.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #171 on: June 14, 2005, 10:47:53 AM »
Yeah, I doubt I'll be able to afford more than one console, but the idea of having to look in different places for the best games shouldn't be repulsive to a videogame fan.

But yes, the health of today's videogame industry and the vibrancy of so many developers are all parallel to what Miyamoto himself is pursueing: more fun and better games. I certainly don't pray to the all-might Miyamoto sensei... he's much too humble for that, and I try to learn from his humility, lol. But even though Miyamoto and others may have different ideas on what direction games can and should go in, the presence of capable third parties is a testament to not only Nintendo's success at saving the videogame industry in the 80's, but also the success of Nintendo's beliefs: Innovation can trump mediocrity and quality can trump commercialization. That so many in the industry now lay a claim to this mindset shows that Nintendo has already affected the industry in such a way that instead of wanting a uniform and dominant Nintendo, we should treasure the diversity that has resulted.

The spirit of Nintendo is..well...the spirit of fun isn't it? Fun through new experiences and quality work. There are Non-Nintendo games that have fun, so why should any Nintendo fan feel bad about having to look elsewhere for new gaming experiences?

Also, you make a convincing point about the risk-averse managers. Nintendo apparently believes that they won't need 1080p support for any games they make to succeed, but now anyone who makes revolution games will have to believe that also. Will that keep developers away, or be a non-issue? Honestly...who even knows at this point with so little known about the Rev itself? All that can be said is that this is the direction Nintendo's going in, and that as a Nintendo fan I find it highly interesting to see exactly how different they are in thinking about videogames from everyone else. In fact, I've come to respect it.

And I still highly believe that to have Nintendo with market dominance would be a bad thing for gaming. Nintendo's dominance of the 80's and 90's was coincidental, Yamauchi saw a way to make money and grabbed it. But with Yamauchi gone, Miyamoto is the heart and soul of Nintendo and he doesn't seem to care a fig about controlling the rest of the industry. Sure, he'd like to influence it, but through his games, not any edicts.

And as such, Nintendo is in no way or form an entity that can take on the mantle of what videogames are today. Videogames today are violent (something that Miyamoto eschews), sexy, niche, hardcore, casual, regurgitated and innovative, big and small, indie and corporate, cinematic and interactive, male, female, children, adult...

And Nintendo doesn't want to think of videogames like Rockstar Games, Midway, Squareenix, and others who share a myriad set of viewpoints, all of which would need to be encompassed if Nintendo was the one and only console maker. They've censored blood, sex and violence. They lack the technological knowhow to make the graphic cards and processors of the future. They've become very averse to adopting brand new technologies until they see a clear business strategy with them. They refuse to go after hardcore gamers whose tastes have been altered beyond any normal concept of "fun."

Simply put, Nintendo does not represent everyone in the videogame market, and they shouldn't. When Nintendo was king, videogames were only for children. It took another company to come in and represent the specific needs that Nintendo was ignoring.

The only industry which will benefit from Nintendo as the only console maker is an industry that has crashed, marginalized itself, lost it's direction, and that nobody believes in. While there are many worries about the future of today's videogame industry, in many ways it's more dynamic, more inclusive, and more exciting than anything Miyamoto could ever have dreamt up. And that's a good thing.

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Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #172 on: June 14, 2005, 10:55:06 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"we're Nintendo fans because Nintendo stuck to their guns and always did what was best for the games they wanted to make, no matter the risk."

This sentence is so ironic.  This is exactly why I became a Nintendo fan and why I've been so critical of them in the last few years.  The problem is that in the last couple of years Nintendo has comprimised what's best for their games for money.  They don't take risks if it means they'll not make a profit for a quarter.  For example their reasoning for not going online was that it wasn't profitable.  It wasn't that it would comprimise their games or that online gaming has too much lag or anything like that.  The decision was made entirely because of money.  Mario Kart Double Dash was comprimised as it was limited to LAN only when if Nintendo was willing to take a bit of a risk it could have been online.

This HD stuff is the same way.  Their choice to not support it is entirely money driven and Rev games will be comprimised because of it.  It's not as crucial since it's only based on visuals but they're still cutting out a feature that directly affects games to save a couple of bucks.



They didn't go online because they didn't have the know-how, nor the games for it. It's as simple as that. If Nintendo had gone online with the Cube, they wouldn't have the resources to support online play, they wouldn't have the know-how to get an online network made right, and they wouldn't have the games to make it worthwhile.

From Nintendo's standpoint, they did the right thing for their games because trying to shoehorn the online functionality into traditional game ideas that didn't fit it would have been a distraction and a waste. Miyamoto has yet to come up with an innovative way to use online connectivity, and without a Nintendo game, why in the world would they make a Nintendo network?

I'm not merely talking about persistent worlds and player-matching. A Nintendo game has to do more than lazily hook one modem up to another to justify it's existence. A Nintendo game has to treat online connectivity as an integral fabric of the game itself, it has to make online connectivity feel like the touch screen for Pac Pix, or the analog control for Super Mario 64: not just an option tacked onto a game, but a natural and essential part of what gameplay should be.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #173 on: June 14, 2005, 11:20:53 AM »
"If Nintendo had gone online with the Cube, they wouldn't have the resources to support online play, they wouldn't have the know-how to get an online network made right, and they wouldn't have the games to make it worthwhile."

Then how do they have the resources and the know-how NOW?  The only thing that's changed is the potential cost.  They had games that were worthwhile.  Mario Kart has LAN play.  That's the same thing as online play only with a shorter distance.  Nintendo only didn't go online because they didn't think it was profitable.  They said that numerous times.

"A Nintendo game has to do more than lazily hook one modem up to another to justify it's existence."

This relates to another reason I became a fan of Nintendo and am so critical now.  In their peak every Nintendo game had a reason to exist.  That's not so anymore.  They've made all sorts of totally redundent sequels and spin offs that had no reason to exist aside from making a quick buck.  The Mario Party titles are the obvious example plus they made Cube Mario Tennis and Golf games that added very little to the near perfect design of the N64 games.  They've been farming out franchise characters to third parties, they make all sorts of junk Pokemon product, and they're even releasing franchise pinball games which is the ultimate example of milking a franchise.  Nintendo has established in the last few years that a Nintendo game doesn't have to do anything to justify its existence provided people buy it.

You're taking the Nintendo from the 80s and 90s that truly was an innovative game artist and putting them in the present.  The Nintendo making these decisions is a different Nintendo.  In the 21st century Nintendo has been very corporate.  They care first and foremost about their precious profit and will gladly comprimise their integrity as a game artist for money.  We know they will because they have.  Even five years ago I would have justified this decision as being "better for games" as well but they're different now.  Five years ago I would NEVER expect to see Mario in an EA game or Star Fox being shoehorned into an original Rare game.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2005, 11:44:41 AM »
Yes indeed, look at Mario Kart: DD and Kirby's Air Ride. Both games were lackluster in their Lan implementation because LAN added absolutely nothing new to the gameplay. Mario Kart: DD, which should have been a headliner, was absolutely UNBALANCED in it's 8 player mode. People picking it up for the very first time ended up in 2nd place, while I was 8th! And I owned the game! HELP!

Also, I agree with you that Nintendo has had a spate of not-up-to-snuff titles. But I attribute this to Nintendo's trying to emulate their competitors. Remember the debacle with SMS where they were proclaiming that the opening was FMV? Also, Wind Waker was obviously released half-finished, and while Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire were amazing, Gold/Silver/Fire Red/Leaf Green are all amazingly disappointing games that no one seems to want to admit.

But I'd like to object to your use of Mario Party. Sure, you don't seem to be a fan. But I've played countless iterations of it at my younger cousin's house and I must say, each iteration hasn't failed to impress me and make me want to play it some more. From duels, to exciting new mini-games, I've been amazed that I could remain interested in the series as long as I have. Haven't played the microphone yet but... well, we'll see, lol.

And Miyamoto is still at it with Pikmin. God that game is beautiful.

And of course countless other innovative concepts. Pac Man Vs. Wario Ware. Til n' Tumble/Wario Ware Twisted. Animal Crossing. Nintendogs.

And who are we to credit for the innovations of the DS? Here is an example of Nintendo releasing new hardware specifically so they can create new types of software. My most played game right now is actually Namco's Pac Pix, but I'm looking forward to this new Kirby game exceedingly now, sounds like a more amazing version of Yoshi's Tocuh n' Go!

Therefore, I still believe that the Nintendo of the 1980's and 90's still exists today. It's just that when they are encroached upon by deadlines, by the need to be held to standard's other than their own, when they basically become distracted from making great games, then they fail. When they are forced to inject LAN gameplay in a game like Mario Kart: DD which was apparently wholly unsuited for large scale multiplayer action, then they fail. So I hope to god that whatever online games they have coming down the pipes are online because it wasn't forced, but because the gameplay needs it.

Nintendo is still in the business of making games. But they can obviously fail when they don't have a game concept worthy of these gimmicks. Which is why I'm happy Nintendo didn't go online with the cube: if they did, they would have failed.

Like the online issue, HD support isn't as much about money as it is about what it means for successful game development on the revolution.

Carmine M. Red
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.