Author Topic: People Need To Stop Bitching  (Read 93820 times)

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 02:40:06 PM »
Geez, I'm so sorry I didn't mention the collection of Kirby ports in my list.

I'm not asking Nintendo to cater specifically to my tastes.  It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, mostly due to pathetic third party support.  I'm getting flack like I'm the lone weirdo making this complaint.  Bullshit.  Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.

I want:
- good third party support
- industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers
- a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals
- for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)

Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes.  They have not even sniffed this since the Super Nintendo (and the last two points were never an issue until the Wii).  The Wii U has yet to demonstrate that it will fulfill these requirements or that Nintendo is on the right track to fulfill those requirements down the road with the Wii U successor.  It still has time to do so but after getting burned so bad on the Wii I'm going to wait and see on that.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2012, 02:44:38 PM »
If my Wikipedia sorting/digging skills are right, here's the SNES's NA, Nintendo Published line-up for the last two years of its life (96/97, with the N64 being released in 96)

Kirby Super Star
Ken Griffey Jr.'s Winning Run
Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!
Tetris Attack
Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
Kirby's Dream Land 3

As for the NES, considering it had virtually 100% of the market and wasn't even discontinued from Nintendo until 2003, yeah... it was a bit odd.

But, for completeness:
List of NES games published by Nintendo and released during or after the launch year of the SNES (91-94)...  Be prepared, this massive list may take awhile for your computer to load...

NES Open Tournament Golf (The only game released in 1991 from Nintendo)
Yoshi
Yoshi's Cookie
Kirby's Adventure
Tetris 2
Mega Man 6
Zoda's Revenge: StarTropics II
Wario's Woods

hmm...
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Offline marty

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2012, 02:49:42 PM »
If Nintendo were doing a good job, releasing games people wanted, then they wouldn't have lost a billion dollars last year.  Maybe this thread should be titled "People Need To Stop Pointing Out How Badly Nintendo Is Fucking Up"

Billion?  I think you're confused, sir.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577367243824458530.html

Quote
Nintendo Records $531.1 Million Annual Loss
Your're right, they lost 1/2 a billion dollars. My mistake.
And I agree, neither Sony nor Microsoft are very good at selling videogames either.  Being diversified companies, they're able to hide their game division losses better than Nintendo.


I'm not taking a swipe at Nintendo, I'm just pointing out the fact that they're not making games that many people want.  Nintendo used to do this in the 8-16 bit era and again with the Wii for a few years-- and they did it from the gb to DS, on handhelds, too.  Nintendo hasn't put out a Wii game that's put up any decent numbers since 2009 and the 3ds needed to sell at a loss to survive its first year.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
Geez, I'm so sorry I didn't mention the collection of Kirby ports in my list.

You made a list?  I thought you merely mentioned one of the six known releases that you're interested in and blissfully ignored the other five.

Quote
It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, [...] Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.

So... You realize that Nintendo has been operating the same way for nearly 20 years and you still want them to change?

I wonder, how many years does a business need to have a new business model before people realize that the business has changed and they're no longer compatible?

And I agree, neither Sony nor Microsoft are very good at selling videogames either.

 Really?  Because that's not the impression I get from some of the folks here who seem to keep saying how Sony does this or Microsoft does that and therefore Nintendo should as well.
 
 See, I was thinking all these entertainment losses probably had a lot more to do with the huge, global economic recession and such...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 02:55:23 PM by UncleBob »
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Offline ejamer

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2012, 03:04:46 PM »
Are people actually arguing that Wii has had strong (or even adequate) software support over the past two years for core gamers? That the ongoing drought is acceptable? Seriously?

Look, I like Nintendo.  I am a proud Wii gamer who has collected well over 100 games for the system without counting digital releases - games that I enjoy and have either already played or eventually will. Nintendo makes good hardware, publishes a lot of games I enjoy, and provides a home for various niche titles and genres that are often are ignored on other platforms.

But the Wii software release schedule has consisted of slim pickings for a long time - especially if your interests are limited to core-friendly titles. Saying anything else at this point is delusional.

Check Metacritic and sort best Wii titles by year.

For 2012, you have a grand total of 8 games listed at all (with some unreleased in North America, possibly never coming) and only 3 games higher than an 80 average.  Xenoblade is my favorite game in years and I enjoy an occasional Mario Party 9 for what it is... but it's really really hard to argue that this list represents quality or quantity.

For 2011 things are better... sort of.  There are 9 titles with a Metacritic rating over 80 (including 3 digital releases and the Bit.Trip compilation) and at least enough variety that you'll probably find something worth trying if you dig in a little bit.  But how many core gamers are satisfied with a console that offers less than one good game per month for multiple years?
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2012, 03:10:31 PM »
Quote
It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, [...] Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.

So... You realize that Nintendo has been operating the same way for nearly 20 years and you still want them to change?

I wonder, how many years does a business need to have a new business model before people realize that the business has changed and they're no longer compatible?

Well I did put up with the N64 and Gamecube.  They were not quite what I wanted but were tolerable.  The Wii was the first one I really outright disliked.  But is having shitty third party support part of Nintendo's business model or is it just an undesired result of incompetence?  I highly doubt they set out intentionally to do this.  But I would only say Nintendo has been outright incompatible with me for six years.

My attitude was originally more like "hey, you guys make the best games, but your last few consoles have had some problems you should address to improve the experience you provide to your customers."  Nintendo even felt they needed to do something different with the Wii, I just strongly dislike the approach they chose.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2012, 03:14:00 PM »
Are people actually arguing that Wii has had strong (or even adequate) software support over the past two years for core gamers? That the ongoing drought is acceptable? Seriously?

Depends on how you frame the argument.  Some folks seem to think that Nintendo should return to the "good ol' days".  Looking at it that way, Nintendo's pretty well in line with the "good ol' days" - which is pretty much my point.  Nintendo is exactly what Nintendo has been.

How bad would it have sucked to have an NES in 1991, with the only Nintendo release that year being NES Open Tournament Golf?  I mean, ouch.

The bigger issue is that folks want Nintendo to return to the NES/SNES era.  The problem that so many people don't realize is that the policies that Nintendo had in play during this time frame were the exact reason so many long-term folks in the industry dislike Nintendo - to this very day.

Companies that had tons of hits on the NES readily jumped ship to the Genesis/Mega Drive as soon as they could.  Likewise, as soon as Sony came calling, they jumped ship off the SNES (and many have never really looked back).

Nintendo got away with what they did during the NES-era (and, to some extent, the SNES-era) because they were the only game in town.  You want to sell games?  You play by our rules.

That's just not the case anymore.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 03:54:07 PM by UncleBob »
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2012, 05:38:11 PM »
If I was going to write up a report card of Nintendo for the Gamecube era it would have had these points:

What you're doing wrong:
- Third party support is not very strong.  You have to be accomodating to provide incentive for third parties to support your system.  Being stubborn and inflexible does not work.
- You need to match industry standard features if all of your competitors offer it.  Refusing to make online games was the wrong idea because the rest of the industry went with it.  If you're the only one out, you're out of date and both third parties and potential customers will reject your system if it is out-of-date.
- While you often have very creative ideas, this approach is not always necessary.  You do not need to do everything in a unique way.  You need to recognize when a new approach will improve something and when something is already being done in the most logical, conventional way it could be.  If someone else is already doing something the ideal way to do it, just do it the same way.  There is no benefit in something being different arbitrarily.

What you're doing right:
- The games.  Your games are often ambitious and creative and of a high quality.  The controls are tight and responsive, the graphics are good, the games are often bug free.  There is your greatest strength.  Keep up the good work.
- Your physical hardware is of good quality and is well-built and reliable.
- When they aren't unique entirely for the sake of being unique, your ideas are often creative and fun.  You have emormous potential for great ideas and just need a better filter to determine when to go forward with them.

Now after the Wii I would say:

What you're doing wrong:
- All points in previous report are still a problem with no noticable improvement and in the case of third party support the situation has gotten worse.
- The one thing you absolutely got right was the games but you now will intentionally make unambitious games for casuals and non-gamers.  You have made titles like NSMB, which lack creativity, entirely because they will sell well.  Corners are cut with titles like Pilotwings 3DS reusing elements from Wii Sports Resort.  Outright low quality games like Donkey Kong Barrel Blast have been released.  The standards of controls have fallen considerably with many games have loose, unresponsive controls to push gimmicky control schemes, without an option for responsive traditional controls.  In fact Metroid Prime 3 is one of the only Wii core games that doesn't have the option for traditional controls that truly feels like it requires the new control scheme.  Otherwise great games like Super Mario Galaxy and Donkey Kong Country Returns suffer from imprecise "waggle" controls that come across as unnecessary, with no alternate control scheme available.

What you're doing right:
- Aside from the games, the items from the previous report have not diminished.
- When none of the problems outlined above are present, you still appear to have the capacity to make great games.

So my general opinion of the Wii is that Nintendo fixed nothing and broke the one thing they did better than anything else.

Offline Adrock

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2012, 05:46:31 PM »
I want:
- good third party support
- industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers
- a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals
- for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)

Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes.
What? Yes, they are. With the except of the 2nd point (and even that's kind of iffy depending on what you consider a standard), every one of those things are subjective.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 05:56:46 PM by Adrock »

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2012, 06:15:10 PM »
I want:
- good third party support
- industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers
- a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals
- for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)

Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes.
What? Yes, they are. With the except of the 2nd point (and even that's kind of iffy depending on what you consider a standard), every one of those things are subjective.

How can we possibly discuss how good or bad Nintendo is without some level of subjectivity?  Essentially any displeasure with Nintendo could then be defended away as "well, you're just asking Nintendo to cater specifically to you so your point is moot."  I think my requests are quite broad.  It's not like I said "never let Sakamoto make a Metroid again" or "stop making Mario Party games".  See, THAT would be asking them to cater to my specific tastes.

Offline Louieturkey

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2012, 07:11:36 PM »
Nintendo needs better third party support to gain back more of the core market.  Nintendo is not going to change their philosophy of making games for everyone.  So they need the other companies to create the games catering to certain demographics.  One the NES, yes Nintendo only released 1 game in 1991, but over 100 games were released for the system that year and at least 20 of those were high quality games that were liked by many.  In 2012, the Wii has more 1st party games than the NES did in 1991, but the amount of good games released on the system total was far more than the Wii has had in the last 2-3 years.

It really all comes down to third party support.  NES and SNES both had very good third party support as well as great Nintendo games.  N64 had little 3rd party support but amazing Nintendo games.  The GCN started with good third party support but that quickly ran dry and only had the Nintendo games again.  The Wii had the worst third party support in regards to "core" gamers as that term was created because the Wii existed.  GB,GBA,DS,3DS all have had great third party support in addition to the great Nintendo games and all of those have been considered great systems.

The systems that had bad years right before new hardware was coming out were the ones with bad third party support.  If the Wii U gets the same games the PS360 get over the next 1-2 years and then also get the games that the PS4/Xbox420 get then they will be in good shape (as long as those third party games keep selling on their system).  Otherwise, it will continue to be more of the same, regardless of how many systems the Wii U sells.


Offline Adrock

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »
I think my requests are quite broad.
They're broad requests but you demand very specific responses. "A good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals." What the hell does that even mean? That can be interpreted in any number of ways including how Nintendo is already doing things.

You don't allow for a lot of gray area reasoning. Everything is so black and white with you which I suppose makes your Batman avatar appropriate here. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. The reason I get into these debates with you is because I just don't understand your opinion. I don't have to agree with you to see where you're coming from. I think the reason I tend to disagree with you a lot is because I don't view things as absolutes.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2012, 01:45:52 AM »
Okay, I did this for fun, not as a debate piece, so it's not perfect.  Notably, because I quickly pulled the info from Wikipedia, some of the dates do not reflect the North American release date.  Additionally, some of the publisher info might not be 100% (for example, if the game was published by one company in Japan and another company here in the states, it might be listed under one or the other companies.)  It's not perfect, but I think it'll make an interesting jumping off point.

So - without further ado - stats!  North American, Nintendo Published Titles by system, by year:

NES-68   SNES-44   N64-48   GCN-50   Wii-54
1985-18   1991-5   1996-6   2001-5   2006-6
1986-9   1992-7   1997-9   2002-9   2007-12
1987-8   1993-7   1998-8   2003-14   2008-6
1988-8   1994-11   1999-12   2004-8   2009-11
1989-7   1995-6   2000-12   2005-11   2010-10
1990-10   1996-6   2001-1   2006-3   2011-7
1991-1   1997-2   -   -   2012-2
1992-1   -   -   -   -
1993-3   -   -   -   -
1994-3   -   -   -   -

So... The Wii has had more Nintendo-published titles than ANY other system, aside from the NES which had a crazy amount of launch titles (18) and kept going for three years longer than any other Nintendo system (adding 7 more titles to the mix).

If anyone's super interested in the master list (in particular, editing the years for the releases), let me know and I can send you the spreadsheet....

*edit* - This doesn't include any digital titles, of which Nintendo is responsible for a small handful of awesome ones on the VC/WiiWare.  Like Fluidity.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 01:53:07 AM by UncleBob »
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Offline Phil

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2012, 01:49:06 AM »
For the reason above, the Wii was my second favorite Nintendo system just behind the Super Nintendo. It had Nintendo developing some of their best games and the Virtual Console was a great feature.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #89 on: June 13, 2012, 02:17:03 AM »
Uncle Bob, another thing about your list that is probably off is that you are probably counting casual games like Wii Play/Fit/Sports/Music, Link's Crossbow Training, and so on, as well as ports or collections such as NPC Pikmin 2 or Metroid Trilogy. I don't think those should be counted as new games. If you take all of that out where would your stats stand then?

I appreciate the effort you put into it and it is very interesting, but as you yourself said its not accurate.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 02:24:43 AM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Phil

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2012, 02:36:13 AM »
Uncle Bob, another thing about your list that is probably off is that you are probably counting casual games like Wii Play/Fit/Sports/Music, Link's Crossbow Training, and so on, as well as ports or collections such as NPC Pikmin 2 or Metroid Trilogy. I don't think those should be counted as new games. If you take all of that out where would your stats stand then?

I appreciate the effort you put into it and it is very interesting, but as you yourself said its not accurate.

Why wouldn't those games count?
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Offline Tamazoid

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2012, 04:12:14 AM »
So just because a game is targeted at a different demographic it isn't a game? That's a complete BS argument, the Wii series are video games whether you like it or not, they still take time to make it's not like Nintendo can press a magic button and a "Wii__" game pops out. Uncle Bob's list is listing the GAMES that Nintendo published for the Wii, nothing more or nothing less. NPC games are games published by Nintendo for the Wii.


Also no where in his list does it state these games are 'new'. You can't dispute the facts, Nintendo has published more games for the Wii than any system since the NES.

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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2012, 04:26:05 AM »
I'm not arguing that those aren't GAMES. But they aren't "core" games, and I thought that's what we arguing about? If its not then I was mistaken about this whole conversation.

If you happen to love games like Chicken Shoot, Elf Bowling, Carnival Games, etc. then I'm sure you have no problem with the Wii's software library. Good for you. What about those who like more traditional games, though? Don't their opinions matter? Nintendo claims they are trying to target "everyone" with their software, but not "Everyone" is happy with these products. One size does not always fit all.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:29:16 AM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2012, 10:11:28 AM »
That is an interesting question... If you take out ports/remakes, where do you stand with the NES?  A good chunk of the early NES Library consisted of Nintendo putting their arcade titles on cartridge.

Plus, the NES had the "Games we're not counting as games because they don't interest me"... Duck Hunt (Wii Play), Dance Aerobics (Wii Fit), World Class Track Meet (Wii Sports), Barker Bill's Trick Shooting (Link's Crossbow Training).  I suppose there isn't an equivalent to Wii Music on the NES though.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2012, 10:48:32 AM »
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2012, 12:05:15 PM »
That would be on-par SNES wise.  For the SNES, I'd pair Super Scope 6 with Wii Play, Yoshi's Safari with Link's Crossbow Training, the two Ken Griffey Jr. games, Super Tennis, and, perhaps, Kirby's Dream Course against Wii Sports.  Not much of a game to compare to Wii Fit on the SNES front though.
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Offline Louieturkey

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2012, 01:09:40 PM »
I'm not arguing that those aren't GAMES. But they aren't "core" games, and I thought that's what we arguing about? If its not then I was mistaken about this whole conversation.

If you happen to love games like Chicken Shoot, Elf Bowling, Carnival Games, etc. then I'm sure you have no problem with the Wii's software library. Good for you. What about those who like more traditional games, though? Don't their opinions matter? Nintendo claims they are trying to target "everyone" with their software, but not "Everyone" is happy with these products. One size does not always fit all.
I suggest you get the master spreadsheet from Uncle Bob and make this list yourself.  It'll help you figure out your argument.  I'd caution though that you figure it out for all the systems.  Uncle Bob is right.  There were a lot of games on the NES that pretty much mirror the "casual" games on the Wii.

Actually, history should show us that the Wii U will be awesome.  The Wii has mirrored the NES pretty well with the casual and core games that they released. If history continues to repeat, the Wii U will be like the SNES in that it will have a lot more core games and be highly regarded as an amazing system because of the games.  This is all my opinion. :)

Offline Evan_B

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2012, 01:34:57 PM »
We can only hope that the Wii U is actually the "Super Wii".
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Offline Drizzt

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #98 on: June 13, 2012, 01:46:48 PM »
That'd be amazing.

Offline Louieturkey

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Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2012, 02:07:23 PM »
We can only hope that the Wii U is actually the "Super Wii".
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