Topic: Is the Wii remote really so unreliable in Zelda: TLP?

[TrueNerd]

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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
It was very difficult for me to execute a spin attack without charging in OoT, MM, and TWW. In Twilight Princess it is so quick and easy that I find myself using it a lot more than I ever did. See a few pots in a row? Break them all with the flick of the wrist (literally).

Yeah, the spin attack is a novelty to me in the three previous 3D Zeldas. It was there, but I never used it. I use the spin attack all the freaking time in Twilight Princess because it doesn't leave you vulnerable for a few seconds before you unleash it. It's terrific.  

Overall, the Wii controls are wonderful. While the sword swinging only works about 95% of the time, it has yet to fail me when I've NEEDED it to work. I haven't died, let alone take any damage, because the controls didn't respond. Plus, all the aiming is so much easier and, more importantly, much more fun. I wholeheartedly recommend the Wii version as the way to go. And no, I don't need to play the GameCube version to make that call.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The spin attack is fine.  I was chaining it to the end of combos in a matter of seconds.

Unsheathing is fine.  That and sword swings are all based on a minimum amount of acceleration of the Remote.

So always use well-defined wrist flicks and don't get lazy, and don't get over-excited.  Don't slash so much so fast that the animations are unable to keep up with you.

I bet the game has more issues with players than the other way around.

[ThePerm]

i haven't had a problem with the controls really, the only problem inst really a problem in that it takes some skill to do the shield thrust.  

[BigJim]

Everyone will have slightly different experiences because we all have different ways we hold our controllers, how we perform movements, and where we sit in conjunction to the sensor bar.

For me the spin attack has been flawless. But the shield thrust doesn't always take for whatever reason. I'm aggressive in my attack style, so at least I don't use it much.

The slight delay in sword swinging was a little jarring at first, but you quickly learn to swing earlier than you're used to in Zelda, and it becomes a non-issue.

The only particular thing that's caught me more than a few times was the aiming. I frequently get the "aim the wii remote" message because of where I sit and the way I comfortably rest my hands as I play. I have to lift my arm up to center the wiimote a lot of times, which is a distraction. But like I said, different experiences for everybody.

[Ceric]

Yeah.  Personally I have the hardest time getting a consistent spin attack out.  I'll want to do it and it just won't happen.  Though I rarely have a problem with the Shield thrust, and when I do I just use the Ball and Chain

[Shecky]

10hrs of play:  Since both of these moves have been in previews I'll consider them minor and this post spoiler free.

Heh, BigJim and Ceric show the two sides of "spin attack/shield bash".

I have no problem with the spin attack.... left, right motion with the controller works fine.  It's the shield bash that I cannot get to a satisfactory level of determinism.  100% on demand would be ideal but there are times where I just can't do it.  The best I can do is about a 70% success rate when I get into a grove.  The remaining attempts either nothing happens or I spin attack instead.  If I end up having to use the technique for the instructors later demonstration, I can see trouble.

IMO, the spin attack should have been 3 motions (left,right,left or right,left,right ....) to make the shield bash more distinct and reliable.

Also, I have no idea how they would even pull off the shield bash in the GCN version.

[xanrastafari]

For those having a problem with the shield bash and the spin attack, I've found that, with a little practice, I can reliably do both.  Here's my techniques:

Shield Bash: Punch.  That's right punch.  Jab the controller forward, directly at the screen.
Spin Attack: Spin your arm around in a vertical circle, kinda like you were going to throw a lasso.  Its worked quite well for me.

[couchmonkey]

Shield bash: It's probably a timed attack (similar to counter attacks from Wind Waker) on the GCN...actually I think it's timed on Wii too, I haven't used it much.  So on GCN, you'd shield, wait for the symbol to appear, then tap up on the stick to do the bash - or something like that.

I find having to unsheath the sword annoying but accurate.  When I forget to unsheath it, I blame myself rather than the game.  But it can be frustrating when you just go through a door or something.  There are occassional blips in the sword controls but overall I find them to be just plain more fun than pressing A. In fact I'm annoyed that certain wolf attacks require A instead of swinging the controller.

My only honest-to-goodness problem with the sword controls at about the 1/3 point of the game is that when I targeted a certain underwater enemy, I couldn't seem to perform a horizontal slice, which is required to hit its weak spot.  De-targeting fixed it, but I shouldn't have to de-target to attack.

[JonLeung]

I do have a problem with the shield bash, but that's about it.

I say go for the Wii version.  Getting the GameCube version just seems like a step back...  :/

[Famicom]

Unsheathing never gave me issues because I walk/ride (and always have in the 3D Zeldas) with my sword out 99% of the time. Never knew you could do the cool sheathing motion manually until way late. As for the shield bash, I've had more success jerking the nunchuck diagonally downward than directly forward. I guess because I can get more extension that way, and maybe it reads better. Either way, after practicing with it for a few minutes and getting it down consistently, I didn't have anymore issues. Not that it matters since you can go the entire game without using it.

[Nephilim]

Only issue I had was the fishing near the start of the game

[d-mode]

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Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Shield bash: It's probably a timed attack (similar to counter attacks from Wind Waker) on the GCN...actually I think it's timed on Wii too, I haven't used it much.  So on GCN, you'd shield, wait for the symbol to appear, then tap up on the stick to do the bash - or something like that.

I find having to unsheath the sword annoying but accurate.  When I forget to unsheath it, I blame myself rather than the game.  But it can be frustrating when you just go through a door or something.  There are occassional blips in the sword controls but overall I find them to be just plain more fun than pressing A. In fact I'm annoyed that certain wolf attacks require A instead of swinging the controller.

My only honest-to-goodness problem with the sword controls at about the 1/3 point of the game is that when I targeted a certain underwater enemy, I couldn't seem to perform a horizontal slice, which is required to hit its weak spot.  De-targeting fixed it, but I shouldn't have to de-target to attack.

about the horizontal slice thing...... maybe you were holding up on the anolog.  if you are z targeting and pushing up it does a stab motion.  but if you z target and just swing it does horizontal.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Also, holding the analog stick parallel to your opponent (rather than toward) also causes horizontal slices.

THIS SHOULD'VE BEEN COMMON NOLL-EDGE SINCE OCARINA OF TIME

[Keldryn]

Just finished Twilight Princess last night (which was awesome) and I decided to toss Majora's Mask into the Wii today (Gamecube collectors' disc) since I never got very far into it.

Wow, do I ever miss the Wii controls on Twilight Princess.

I'm about 40-odd hours into Okami and I need to finish it off and played it today for the first time since I got the Wii on launch day.  Again, I'm missing the Wii controls and I'm fumbling all over the place.  Yeah, I'll get used to its control scheme again soon enough (other than the fact that the PS2's analog sticks aren't that great at the best of times) but I keep thinking how much cooler it would be if it were on the Wii -- and not just using the remote to control the Celestial Brush either.  I really like the feel of a controller piece in each hand, rather than holding the one controller two-handed.  I like having fewer buttons and using gesture-based controls to perform certain moves.

Well, basically I'm converted.  So when's the next Zelda due out on the Wii?  :-P

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

GoNintendo says it's out this monday!

[BranDonk Kong]

I just wanted to add in that Twilight Princess could very well be the greatest game of all time.  

[Chiller]

After lurking for a while, I have decided to join and add my two cents to this particular topic.  I have just finished TP, after about 40 hours of play (still need 3 heart pieces, and 10 poe souls, though).  In regard to the controls, let me say that this was perhaps one of the easiest playing games I have ever played.  Now, I have been playing since '84, and have owned or played every widely available system, so I have a bit of experience.  I have also thrashed many control pads and joysticks over those years out of contempt for unresponsiveness.  I must say that not once did I ever feel the urge to dash my remote at any point during the normal gameplay (level 8 of rollgoal came close).  Nearly everything came with complete ease, with the sole exception being the shield-attack.  Ironically, the difficulty came, in a manner of speaking, from the ease of execution.  I found that my problem with the shield-attack came mainly from overzealous articulation.  For myself, the best way to get the most consistent result was to use a gentle pushing motion.  A simple shove forward worked nearly 100% of the time.  Only when I became too forceful did I find myself activating the spin attack instead.  So, chalk this up as another vote for the Wii control-scheme.

As an aside, I had a couple of other observations.
Firstly, I spent perhaps 5 hours over the course of the game just fishing aimlessly at the fishing hole.  If they were to expand upon the fishing elements in this game, I could probably spend another 40 hours on that alone (I am an avid fisherman, though).

Secondly, I would like to have seen an increase in difficulty.  I never died, or had to use a potion once - something I have never accomplished in any other game in the series, including Wind Waker.

Finally, if you have any sort of epicondylitis or other tendonitis in the arms, make sure to take a break once in a while.

P.S. - I really hate level-8 of rollgoal.
 

[Keldryn]

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Originally posted by: Chiller
After lurking for a while, I have decided to join and add my two cents to this particular topic.  I have just finished TP, after about 40 hours of play (still need 3 heart pieces, and 10 poe souls, though).

I just finished it on Tuesday night, with a clock time of just under 60 hours.  I still needed to collect about 20 more heart pieces, 21 more poes, 8 more bugs, one more bottle and one more bomb bag.  And I barely did any fishing, actually...

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In regard to the controls, let me say that this was perhaps one of the easiest playing games I have ever played.  Now, I have been playing since '84, and have owned or played every widely available system, so I have a bit of experience.  I have also thrashed many control pads and joysticks over those years out of contempt for unresponsiveness.

Very similar background to me here.  Been playing videogames since my family got an Intellivision for Christmas in 1982 (I was 8 years old), and I've been a huge Zelda nut since I first played the original on my NES in late '87 or early '88.  I've also owned nearly every domestically-released console and gone through many different input peripherals (consoles and PC) in my quest for responsive, intuitive controls.

I didn't find Twilight Princess to be one of the "easiest playing games" I have ever played.  Well, it was easy in terms of the controls being intuitive and responsive, which let me actually focus on the game itself and not on coping with an input device.

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I must say that not once did I ever feel the urge to dash my remote at any point during the normal gameplay (level 8 of rollgoal came close).

The closest I got was when escorting the wagon from Hyrule Castle to the village.  I had to try it a good six times to finally get through.  Mainly because I had trouble getting the boomerang to lock on to the wagon instead of the orc-guys or the birds.  If the remote hadn't been strapped to my wrist (and if the system hadn't been an early Christmas present from my wife, who was sitting right next to me), I might have thrown it across the room.  :-)  Last time I threw a controller in a Zelda game was in Ocarina of Time.  Twice, actually.  The first time was after fighting that stupid Bongo Bongo in the stupid Shadow Temple and dying again, and the second time was during the fight with Ganondorf and I was having trouble reflecting his "balls of light" back at him.

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Nearly everything came with complete ease, with the sole exception being the shield-attack.  Ironically, the difficulty came, in a manner of speaking, from the ease of execution.  I found that my problem with the shield-attack came mainly from overzealous articulation.  For myself, the best way to get the most consistent result was to use a gentle pushing motion.  A simple shove forward worked nearly 100% of the time.  Only when I became too forceful did I find myself activating the spin attack instead.  So, chalk this up as another vote for the Wii control-scheme.

I agree with you -- sometimes a more subtle, gentle motion of the controller is all you need.  In the heat of battle, however, I find it easy to get caught up in it...

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Secondly, I would like to have seen an increase in difficulty.  I never died, or had to use a potion once - something I have never accomplished in any other game in the series, including Wind Waker.

I had a completely different experience.  In Wind Waker, I never died once although I did have to use potions once in a while.  I think I only had 13 heart containers when I finished the game, too.  The only spot where I came close to dying in Wind Waker was during one of the "puppet" phases of the battle at the end -- the centepedy thing.  However, I also hadn't played the game in several months and picked it up to try and finish it off so I was pretty out of practice.

I died quite a few times in Twilight Princess.  In fact, I hadn't seen that many "Game Over" screens in a Zelda game since Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.  Especially at the beginning of the game, enemies seem to do a lot more damage than then did in WW and hearts are dropped dramatically less often from enemies and pots/grass than they were in the previous few games.  And you take quite a bit of damage from falling into Lava or into a bottomless pit.  Red potions, soup, milk, and fairies heal fewer hearts as well.  

I honestly believe that the "easiness" of recent Zelda games is in a large part due to the players having played and replayed the previous games and just getting too good at them.  The Wind Waker is criticized everywhere for being too easy and definitely much easier than Ocarina of Time.  My wife has played and completed A Link to the Past 3 or 4 times but never played any of the N64 Zeldas.  I got her to try Wind Waker (which I found much easier than Ocarina of Time) and she found it too difficult to play.  She thought the controls were too complicated and difficult and the 3D world was too disorienting to navigate.

Those of us who have been playing video games for 20+ years and who were playing throughout the evolution of gameplay from the simple 8-bit games to the more complex 2D 16-bit titles and through the PlayStation/Saturn/N64 transition-to-3D-era (not to mention the concurrent transition to 3D games on the PC platform) have a significantly different perspective than those who missed part(s) of this gradual transition.  A game that would be truly challenging for us would most likely be unapproachable for new gamers or those who haven't really played games since the SNES.  I'm thinking mainly of adult gamers here -- children are generally more adaptable and primed to learn and those who grew up playing 3D games wouldn't encounter the same issues.  Twilight Princess was the most fun I've had with a game in years, and I felt more personally involved in the gameplay than in any other game in recent memory.  That's enough for me.

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Finally, if you have any sort of epicondylitis or other tendonitis in the arms, make sure to take a break once in a while.

I have pretty severe tendonitis in both arms from daily computer work and while using the mouse really starts to hurt my arm after a while, I haven't had any problems with the Wii remote yet.  Though Wii Boxing really makes my arms fatigued after a couple of matches.

[Chiller]

Ah, yes - Intellivision was my fist system, as well.  My father purchased it when I was around three or four, and we had a lot of fun with it, especially with Las Vegas Poker and Armor Battle.  I would still have it if it weren't for the fact that one of the ICs went bad.  I do, however, still have most of my other systmes, including an old Sear Super Pong (which I was given in 85).

My last controller incident was in one of the two "Metroid Prime" games, during one of the last boss fights, where you have to switch between two visor modes repeatedly.  It seemed that the target-lock just would not work correctly, and the strafe maneuver would always cause my to move in a linear fashion, rather than actually around the target.  Also, with the way the controls were mapped, I remember having a hard time switching vizors quickly enough.  Of course, now that I think of it, the strafing problem did happen a couple of times in TP, but I was able to recover from this a lot more easily.

As for Wind Waker, I certainly don't want to make it seem as though it was harder than TP.  I still think that it was rather easy, as well - even my 63-year-old mother could play it (she is just starting TP so I don't know how she compares the two).  However, there were a couple of boss fights in Wind Waker where I had to break out a potion, especially in the battle with the "sand-worm" boss (Molgera, I think).  You might be able to chalk that up to slightly less-responsive controls.

Finally, I think that it was mainly the jerky motions associated with lure fishing that inflamed my tendon.  Moderation is still a good idea, I think.

As another aside, it is interesting to note the differing perspectives on what is considered to be "easy," or "intuitive."

[Keldryn]

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As for Wind Waker, I certainly don't want to make it seem as though it was harder than TP.  I still think that it was rather easy, as well - even my 63-year-old mother could play it (she is just starting TP so I don't know how she compares the two).  However, there were a couple of boss fights in Wind Waker where I had to break out a potion, especially in the battle with the "sand-worm" boss (Molgera, I think).  You might be able to chalk that up to slightly less-responsive controls.

I thought it was pretty easy as well.  But if I hadn't played through Ocarina of Time a few times (as well as other 3D action/adventure games), then I might not have found it quite as easy.

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Finally, I think that it was mainly the jerky motions associated with lure fishing that inflamed my tendon.  Moderation is still a good idea, I think.

Perhaps...  Zelda doesn't fatigue my arms at all, but Wii Boxing certianly does.  Using a mouse is by far the worst in terms of causing tendon inflammation for me.  The only video game controller that I really need to be careful with is the Guitar Hero one.  Using the strum bar makes my forearm start to burn after a little while...

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As another aside, it is interesting to note the differing perspectives on what is considered to be "easy," or "intuitive."

I find it quite fascinating, and it reinforces for me that Nintendo is taking the right approach with the DS and the Wii.  The first video game system my wife spent much time on was the SNES (she's 2 1/2 years younger than me, but her family didn't have any game systems when she was young).  She played a lot of Zelda: LttP (to her it's the "original" Zelda), Link's Awakening on the GB adapter, Final Fantasy II & III, Breath of Fire, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario RPG, etc.  An ex-bf had a PS1 and she played a number of RPGs and Civilization on there.  But no "true" 3D games (3D characters on pre-rendered backgrounds, yes, but those aren't really 3D) and just with the original controller with the D-pad and no analog sticks.  

She didn't play anything on Gamecube or PS2 until she met me, and it took her a long time to get used to analog control.  She really disliked it for a long time, preferring the D-pad.  I think it was Mario Party that got her used to the analog sticks, actually.  She got me an Xbox for Christmas in '04 and when she first picked up the Xbox controller to play, the first thing she said was "Wow, this has a LOT of buttons."  Now, it doesn't actually have any more buttons than the PS2 controller, but it looks like it does at first.  She finds the Gamecube controller the most intuitive of those 3 consoles.  And she's quite impressed with how intuitive the Wii controls seem to be.  She spends most of her video gaming time on my DS though (Brain Age)... I haven't had a chance to use it in a while.  :-)

My sister (who is about my wife's age) has pretty similar views on game controls.  She played the NES and Genesis games with me when we were young (and she was way better than me at Mario-type platformers) and a lot of PC RPGs and graphic adventures (Sierra & LucasArts games).  She didn't really ever play any of the PS and Saturn games when I got those systems, and I'd moved out by the time I got the N64, PS2, and Gamecube.  She likes D-pads and 2D graphics.  Analog sticks are touchier and modern game controllers are complex with a lot of buttons.  Free-movement 3D worlds are too disorienting.  

People like my wife and my sister are never going to spend money on a Playstation3 or Xbox 360.  But the DS or Wii?  Quite likely.  If nothing else, the stylus on the DS and the remote (as a pointer) on the Wii allow a pretty close emulation of using the mouse on a PC, and there are  a lot games that can be played solely with the mouse.

A Wii (and or/DS) version of a Civilization or Sim City game would be a brilliant move.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: SheckyIt's the shield bash that I cannot get to a satisfactory level of determinism.  100% on demand would be ideal...

I got it to 100%  and I was overjoyed.  Battles are 1000 times more enjoyable now when I can just put a shield to an enemy whenever and exactly when I feal like it.  I was even able to time it block arrows as practice.

The motion I used is this.

1) Holding the nunchuk upright such that the cord portion is pointing downward.
2) Treating the corded area almost like a piviot, slightly rotate either forward (toward the screen) or backwards (toward yourself).  A moderate flicking motion works best.

100% success, no joke (ok maybe 99.9%)

No punching up down or anything like that.

[Gamebasher]

Wel, I am happy to read so many positive feedbacks on the Wii controls.

All thats left to do now is to buy a Wii and Zelda which I intend to do.

Nintendo rocks!

And so do you, Reggie! Reggie? Oh, there you are! I just wanted to...aaarrggh...!!??....
....NO...DON´T do that......................   .............

I am speechless! He just took my name and kicked my butt! So now I am nameless with a big shoestamp on my behind. I think he was wearing a Mario-shoe. Yeah, big freaking Mario shoe stamp there.
Well, I guess that is common practise with fearsome Nintendo Presidents. I just hope he won´t also take the names of Iwata and Miyamoto. Because then they will kick HIS butt!!!!!!!! And take his name, and give it to somebody else! Muhahahaha!

Well, Reggie. We still love you the way you are. You really kick the competitions butts! And that was about time for somebody to do just that!