Topic: Episode 243: Talk Talk Talkpy

[Ceric]

But in general the point is that a Nintendo Centric Sites Podcast tends to introduce me to more products on Other Systems then the multi-platform  sites.

Of course, I can turn that around and say that that's an indictment of how bad the experience is on the Wii when even a Nintendo-centric podcast has to turn to the other consoles to find games they want to talk about most weeks.

lolmonade beat you too it.
Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

[broodwars]

Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what should really be considered "news" sometimes on this site, but it is true that there is a large pool of dedicated writers on this site always scouring for Nintendo news.  That's true.

[Ceric]

lolmonade beat you too it.

Eh, not quite since he was talking about a waning quality of Nintendo-produced titles and I'm talking about the entire library, but whatever.

Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what should really be considered "news" sometimes on this site, but it is true that there is a large pool of dedicated writers on this site always scouring for Nintendo news.  That's true.

That's fine we can agree to disagree.

[Chocobo_Rider]

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

There's an important mass media concept called "Menu equals diet" - there can't be an audience for Nintendo/Wii information if the outlets are "too cool" to provide it.

2. The PS2 had a crap ton of shovelware.  No one seemed to have a hard time ignoring it for the sake of the good games.

[lolmonade]

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

There's an important mass media concept called "Menu equals diet" - there can't be an audience for Nintendo/Wii information if the outlets are "too cool" to provide it.

2. The PS2 had a crap ton of shovelware.  No one seemed to have a hard time ignoring it for the sake of the good games.

1. I've made comments on prior talkbacks on how the 3rd party developers are equally to blame for not appealing to such a high installed base, but keep in mind that the appealing demographic may not be there to warrant Rockstar making a GTA game adhered to Wii, or Valve bringing a scaled-down version of Portal to it.  A lot of companies look at statistics like attach rates, games that generate the most sales, etc.  I don't have the most up-to-date info, last time I checked Nintendo was last for attach rate. 
 
I can't speak as to why or if the video game media is negatively biased towards Nintendo.  I run across much more negativity towards Sony than anyone (deservedly lately). 
 
2.  Maybe it's just me, but as much shovelware titles as there were for PS2, they were also capable of doing multiplat games AND I recall there being many more AAA game options because they got good 3rd party supporty.

[broodwars]

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

The fact that you cite Kotaku as a main source of your ire (and insult me by calling me a "moron thinking in terms of black and white". Thanks for that, by the way) does more damage to your argument than I could hope to achieve.

A site like IGN, Destructoid, or whatnot's job is to inform their audience while generating ad revenue from things their audience has interest in.  If their audience had interest in Wii software, it wouldn't make business sense to ignore it.  Even if every writer at these sites hated the Wii with every fiber of their being, someone would still be covering these games if their audience had the interest and hits to justify it.  And frankly, I don't see them ignoring worthwhile retail software so I find your argument invalid, and I've already stated the financial reasons why WiiWare gets overlooked.  Destructoid especially is fond of posting articles on The Last Story and Xenoblade, as is IGN (including articles on how they want these games).  For that matter, remember the massive amount of hype that IGN put behind the craptacular Conduit, with articles seemingly every day about it leading up to the game's release?

[happyastoria]

I like good games.

[happyastoria]

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

The fact that you cite Kotaku as a main source of your ire (and insult me by calling me a "moron thinking in terms of black and white". Thanks for that, by the way) does more damage to your argument than I could hope to achieve.

A site like IGN, Destructoid, or whatnot's job is to inform their audience while generating ad revenue from things their audience has interest in.  If their audience had interest in Wii software, it wouldn't make business sense to ignore it.  Even if every writer at these sites hated the Wii with every fiber of their being, someone would still be covering these games if their audience had the interest and hits to justify it.  And frankly, I don't see them ignoring worthwhile retail software so I find your argument invalid, and I've already stated the financial reasons why WiiWare gets overlooked.  Destructoid especially is fond of posting articles on The Last Story and Xenoblade, as is IGN (including articles on how they want these games).  For that matter, remember the massive amount of hype that IGN put behind the craptacular Conduit, with articles seemingly every day about it leading up to the game's release?

Isn't that their job? You know, to cover games. To be fair, James and Greg are the only ones who constantly play Nintendo games, the other two are a different story. But then again, when was the last time I played a Wii game? Actually, when was the last time I turned my PS3 on to play a game? Hmmmm. You see, for me, games this gen are kind of lame. I'm playing my PS2 more often than any of my current gen systems. Persona 4 is quite the amazing game!

[broodwars]

I'm playing my PS2 more often than any of my current gen systems. Persona 4 is quite the amazing game!

That it is, though I could do without some of the secretarial work of scheduling and micro-managing the Social Links and a lot of the grind in the randomly-generated dungeons.  Playing the PS2 so much is nothing to feel ashamed of.  In retrospect (I didn't own a PS2 until this generation), that system had an amazing library.  Unfortunately, I got rid of my PS2 when I got a backwards-compatible PS3, which unfortunately died last year and I still have some PS2 games to finish off (Shadow Hearts 2 & 3 and Wild Arms 4 & 5, all highly recommended btw).

[Mop it up]

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

One article I did end up hearing about though, was an article IGN posted about New Super Mario Brothers Wii being a lazy rehash, which was clearly a slander against the Wii. A reader followed up this article with a list of games on other systems that should also be considered lazy rehashes by IGN's terms, yet were instead praised. That doesn't sound fair to me, though this is just one instance so it isn't enough for to prove anything. But it is a reason why I don't pay attention to such sites.

[lolmonade]

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

This this this!  1000X this!  Don't like what websites are saying (or not saying) about Nintendo?  Don't visit their site anymore.  You already know their revenue stream is based on the number of hits to their site.  I used to read Ars Technica all the time for gaming news, but I've found lately that some of their gaming writers are complete trolls, so i've put ad-blocker on their website so they don't get any revenue from me.

[broodwars]

One article I did end up hearing about though, was an article IGN posted about New Super Mario Brothers Wii being a lazy rehash, which was clearly a slander against the Wii.

Ugh, the forums ate my original response to this so I'll make this second attempt short:

The article you're referring to is here, and it's not a "slander against the Wii" at all.  The author praises Nintendo's business sense multiple times, as well as mentioning that he's been following Nintendo for multiple generations by that point.  What the author complains about is how Nintendo has used the Wii's technical deficiencies and huge casual sales as an excuse to put the minimal amount of effort into their 1st party software, especially in terms of presentation.  There are multiple examples of this in the article, from the duplication of Toad characters in NSMBW instead of having a real 4th character, to the rampant use of public domain music in Wii Music, to Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.  To be frank, that's fair criticism.

[Chocobo_Rider]

We really don't need to start splitting hairs, people.  This isn't a question of Nintendo/Wii deserving fair treatment/coverage because "it's the best gaming platform" - it's a matter of it deserving fair treatment because it is a major video game platform. Period.

Does anyone in this conversation not consider the Wii a major game platform or Nintendo a major game company? Anyone?

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

This this this!  1000X this!  Don't like what websites are saying (or not saying) about Nintendo?  Don't visit their site anymore.

Agreed 100%.  I think I expressed that sentiment in my post from last night.  I don't visit Kotaku or IGN or Destructoid anymore (though D-toid still had SOME good stuff.)  I used to enjoy ScrewAttack.com's material until they got all "hardcore" and image conscious.

I do believe that if G4 had not alienated the many Nintendo fans they used to have, they wouldn't be in the ratings trouble they are in, having been dropped from DirecTV.
 
Unfortunately, it's gotten so bad that all I can pay attention to are Nintendo-centric outlets.  And that's not ideal because I am interested in the other consoles too.  But I can't find one multi-platform site that isn't dripping with flame-bait and/or Nintendo-mockery 24/7.

We should demand better.  Cutting off their hits is one thing.  But I don't think these folks really get the message that way.  If someone writes something that you feel is just plain poor journalism, you should write to them, their superior, or their parent company.  Change requires action.

.... or, just keep doin' your thing, enjoy your games and ignore the insanity.  It's certainly easier and I envy you if you can do it.  But, we gotta live in this world, I'd like it to be a cool one.

PS - before anyone over 20 gets clever, not this one.  =P

[Mop it up]

To be frank, that's fair criticism.

I'd agree to that if they applied the same level of criticism to the other systems, but they do not. That was my point.

[Chocobo_Rider]

... Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible. Good point! </saaaaaaaarcasm>

[broodwars]

... Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible. Good point! </saaaaaaaarcasm>

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort, so I would appreciate you not ranting about things I haven't said.  I do think Nintendo's slacked-off when it comes to presentation (and to an extent originality) this generation with notable exceptions, but I don't think they've put out more than a couple of truly bad games this generation (those being Mario Sports Mix and Wii Music, only one of which Nintendo themselves developed).  I accepted a long time ago that the casual Nintendo titles were just not for me, so I can't call them bad.  They just aren't my thing.

I'd agree to that if they applied the same level of criticism to the other systems, but they do not. That was my point.

I don't know, I see an awful lot of criticism on these sites about sequel-itus and their desire to see new IPs and ideas.  A lot of the sequels currently being praised were created this generation, so they haven't had 20 years to "get old".  And games that are weak from a technical standpoint tend to get reamed in reviews as well.  Sure, you have your standard-issue FPS games that tend to skate on good graces, but I see that double-standard on all the systems so long as they can still provide an enjoyable experience.

[Mop it up]

Oh right, I forgot that presentation is directly linked to an enjoyable experience.

I still see it as people claiming things in which they have no interest as being bad, and maintaining condescending behavior to those who differ. Gaming sites are pretty similar to what happened with the Wii third-party situation, in that's it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a bit of a catch 22. Just as there was no audience for third-party games because third-parties didn't make (good) games, so to are there less hits for Nintendo-related articles because there are few (good) articles.

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible.

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort,

Well, you did say the entire Wii library sucks. Twice. So I can see how that could be inferred as stating such.

[broodwars]

Well, you did say the entire Wii library sucks. Twice. So I can see how that could be inferred as stating such.

My apologies if that was the inference.  I was speaking of the library as a whole (which I thought I made clear), just as I mentioned the libraries of the HD consoles as a whole.  You can't ignore all the shovelware crap on the Wii; the notable bad 3rd party games; and what I consider to be some less-than-stellar 1st party games, which drag the quality of the entire library down.

And while it's not the entirety of the experience, presentation always plays a large role in making an experience enjoyable in our video games.  Ours is a visual, auditory, and experiential medium.  How the experience is presented matters, and that's more than just graphical fidelity.  It's also graphical design, style, tone, paying attention to small details that complement the game world, and how information is conveyed to the player.  For example, take something like Metroid Other M.  One of the huge detractors from that game's presentation is the really terrible voice acting and shoddy storytelling, which harmed my experience completely independent on the Wii's graphical capabilities. 

By contrast, I've recently been playing Killzone 2, a game with huge graphical fidelity but more importantly does a really good job of putting me in the game world and emphasizing a certain epic-ness to the proceedings.  That enables me to look past what is really a pretty standard shooter and enjoy the experience, and that's all presentation.  I've also recently played a PS3 budget title called Majin & The Forsaken Kingdom, a game with very low production values but is strong stylistically with decent storytelling that is conveyed well.  Presentation matters.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'll tell you the same thing I tell critics of The Simpsons: of course you can ignore the bad ones. No one is forcing you to play the shovelware, and the fact that it exists shouldn't be counted against the system. Judge a system based on its good games, not by the bad ones. That having been said, the near total lack of third party support hurts the Wii in that comparison as well, but Nintendo's own software certainly makes the Wii worth owning.

[Mop it up]

As someone who owns over one hundred Wii games, I of course disagree about the library being sucky. But since it's largely a matter of opinion, there's not much reason for me to argue over it, as long as the complaints remain grounded.

As for presentation, style matters to me more than realism, so I'm fine with the presentation in most Wii titles. Would games look better with increased system specs? Sure, but the difference isn't as large as games that strive for realism so it doesn't matter very much to me. I don't look closely enough to notice the difference, and aren't interested in most games where it would make a difference.

[Jonnyboy117]

To be fair, James and Greg are the only ones who constantly play Nintendo games, the other two are a different story.

Greg has access to a larger pool of Nintendo games thanks to his Japanese Wii (which includes a distinct Virtual Console library and Japanese DS demos). I think you are mistaken about James bringing up Nintendo games more often in New Business. He's had just as much trouble as Jon and I. Perhaps someone will eventually do a statistical analysis. I try to always have something to say about a Nintendo game, but it's not always possible. Worthwhile releases don't happen consistently enough on any single platform (keep in mind we buy these games with our own money), and it is surprisingly difficult to bring fresh game impressions to the show every single week.

Also, I can use this space to insert the easy joke that Jon has brought a Nintendo game consistently for several weeks now... all the same game, of course.

[NWR_insanolord]

The guys on RFN are high profile enough that they don't have to play Nintendo games anymore. It's the rest of us on staff who aren't celebrities who they make play the games that are coming out on Nintendo platforms.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Mop it up - You are very smart.  I thank you for being awesome.

Insanolord - You are 100% correct with your Simpsons analogy.  More people should be so smart.

Jonny - You guys do a fine job keeping things focused on Nintendo.  More is always welcome, but you do just fine. 

Also, you should never feel like you have to get to a new game just to have something new to talk about.  I've really enjoyed hearing about Lindy's trek through Chrono Trigger from week to week.  It would water down the quality of the show if you guys were just rushing from game to game for the sake of fresh topics but never really dug deep enough to have anything meaningful to comment!

~

On a personal note, I find it funny that though I usually burn through games JamesJones-style, I've really played nothing but Pokémon White, PLatUnwoundFuture and DKCR since like... March.  So my "new business" would have been very "consistent" shall we say =)

PS - watched PLatEternalDiva the other night.  Flappin' awesome.  More Prof Layton games/movies can't come soon enough!

PPS - Funny story.  Since I am an (adjunct) professor with an "L" last name, I proposed to my wife by sending her to locations around town with puzzles I printed on a ProfLayton template I made.  I had friends waiting at the different locations dressed as "strangers" to give her the next puzzle.  The last location was our favorite restaurant where I was waiting with the ring. 

We're pretty awesome dorks, so, it was pretty much the coolest thing ever ^_^

[Ceric]

Mop it up - You are very smart.  I thank you for being awesome.

Insanolord - You are 100% correct with your Simpsons analogy.  More people should be so smart.

Jonny - You guys do a fine job keeping things focused on Nintendo.  More is always welcome, but you do just fine. 

Also, you should never feel like you have to get to a new game just to have something new to talk about.  I've really enjoyed hearing about Lindy's trek through Chrono Trigger from week to week.  It would water down the quality of the show if you guys were just rushing from game to game for the sake of fresh topics but never really dug deep enough to have anything meaningful to comment!

~

On a personal note, I find it funny that though I usually burn through games JamesJones-style, I've really played nothing but Pokémon White, PLatUnwoundFuture and DKCR since like... March.  So my "new business" would have been very "consistent" shall we say =)

PS - watched PLatEternalDiva the other night.  Flappin' awesome.  More Prof Layton games/movies can't come soon enough!

PPS - Funny story.  Since I am an (adjunct) professor with an "L" last name, I proposed to my wife by sending her to locations around town with puzzles I printed on a ProfLayton template I made.  I had friends waiting at the different locations dressed as "strangers" to give her the next puzzle.  The last location was our favorite restaurant where I was waiting with the ring. 

We're pretty awesome dorks, so, it was pretty much the coolest thing ever ^_^

So here's the real question for ya.  If you were playing Portal 2 would your Wife/Fiance/Not Sure  play Co-Op with you?

[Chocobo_Rider]

Oh yes, she would.  Honestly, the only problem I've found with a gamer spouse (and trust me this is a good problem to have!) is that there is almost no such thing as "single player" anymore =P

If I want to play a long single-player campaign on my own schedule (rarely happens these days anyway!) I'd have to sit her down and say: "look, this game is too time-consuming to play between our separate schedules ... you play one of your games while I'm doing this one" and then she gets a little sad, but then she is happy once she goes back to Puzzle Quest for eight-hundred-billionth time ^_^