Topic: Episode 286: Jill-in-the-Box

[Plugabugz]

I'm glad Greg continues to mention Game, because NWR's coverage otherwise is ridiculous.

How can Gamestop no longer selling gamecubes (a console now dead for 6 years) be newsworthy, but a games-only retailer, essentially the UK equivalent of gamestop, not selling Nintendo games in 2012 (including cancelling everyone's preorders for The Last Story with 24 hours notice!) isn't?

If Gamestop cancelled everyone's Xenoblade preorders at the same notice there would be riots.

[Traveller]

If they ran out of time or something fair enough. But they obviously did what they did for a reason, I can't believe they would get to the end of the story and just basically decide to cheap out.. It doesn't make any sense as to why they would not give it the same amount of attention as the rest of the series.

So they either did it for an artistic reason, or they could not complete the game by the deadline. If it was a deliberate design/artistic vision people should at least respect it.

[oohhboy]

Another explanation is that they simply fucked up. It's a far simpler explanation with far fewer hoops to jump through. It is clear from the article that there was an underlying design failure when they collapsed the decision tree.

It is a triumph on Bioware's part that they got so many people emotional involved over 3 games, so when they betrayed that connection, what happened is a perfectly normal reaction. People get together, talked about it, share the pain to diffuse it, some try to affect a change one way or another. It's a perfectly normal coping process, calling them names shows a real lack of insight and empathy on your part.

If it was a deliberate decision on their part they had simply disrespected their own work.

[ejamer]

Re: Mass Effect 3 ending

Gamers complaining and being upset/disappointed is fine.
But believing that they know better, deserve better, and should be able to force the developers to change the ending of a game that has already been released? Not sure how you can suggest that isn't entitlement at work.


However, I do agree that Bioware missed the boat in a huge way with the ending of this game - even if the many hours before that ending are apparently solid. I can't just believe they ran out of time or budget because in either case there could've been DLC planned to mitigate the issue. Instead it seems like this is how they wanted to leave the game world - probably so that future sequels would have a more consistent starting point?


Maybe it shouldn't be surprising that Bioware are more concerned about future viability of sequels than giving fans what they want after the recent novel debacle -- a cheap cash-in instead of a quality effort to expand the franchise. Maybe fan reaction (and the expectation that Bioware will bow to fan demand) was also affected by that novel.  But that doesn't give fans the right to expect a "do over" for a game that cost millions upon millions of dollars to create.

[oohhboy]

I don't think they are asking for a do over and I don't know anyone asking for a do over. You're making up demands that aren't being made, they want a better ending, not a whole new game. Most of the people who did take some form of action probably know they are unlikely to get what they want. They are rolling the dice and if something positive comes of it, that's great. If nothing happens, they come off disappointed, but they have at least worked out some of their frustrations with other people in a non-destructive way. This is healthy and attempting to discourage it by calling them entitled or any other label isn't helping, you're making it worse by trolling them.

A portion of them will probably swear off Mass Effect forever unless some sort of good will gesture is made(Not an EA forte). But whether that should happen or not, is not up to me. If they are smart Bioware should do something positive if nothing else, to cynically maintain the fan base just so they can sell them a sequel or more merchandise.

Edit: Speak of the devil. Bioware is to release some sort of free extended directors cut DLC. My guess is that the game is going to get a Fallout style epilogue.

Strangely for some reason Google is reporting gamasutra as a malware site.

[ejamer]

We're talking about different groups of people then.

Most of the complaints are reasonable and fine. Normal people who were invested in the game enjoyed the bulk of the experience and then were let down by the ending. These people complained, talked about the disappointment with friends, maybe even tried to voice their opinions in a way (petition or whatever) that might bring about improvement.

But there is a set of gamers out there who demand more and honestly believe that Bioware "owes them". They wouldn't settle for anything less than free DLC to change or expand the ending to better match their own expectations instead of the writers' vision. These entitled few might be smaller in numbers, but are unbearably loud and obnoxious. (Seriously: someone considered/threatened a lawsuit?)


To see Bioware offer free DLC that changes/compliments the ending is a generous gesture - but if this second group didn't exist and make up a sizable portion of their audience then it probably wouldn't have happened. Hopefully they don't just bend over backwards, but find a way to stay true to the artistic vision* while giving fans a more satisfying conclusion.


*Assuming the current ending is "artistic vision" and not just prep for future sequels forced onto the writers by cash-hungry management. Personally, I'm not sure about this.  The current end does seem designed to leave the game world ready for new content without having to account for the many player decisions up to that point. Placating their fanbase might also point to "remaining profitable for the future" as a justification for offering free content.

[oohhboy]

The lawsuit is uniquely an American cultural problem of your own creation. I won't go in to the social commentary behind it, but it is not a gamer problem and is a consequence of what American society has developed into.

As for those "entitled" you speak of, stop hassling them. Responding is the equivalent of kicking a beehive. Besides they probably did everyone a favor by doing most of the heavy lifting.

As for the claim of artistic vision, it's pretty laughable. It's pretty clear some sort of group think **** up happened. They wouldn't need to "Bend over backwards or make good" if they didn't **** up in the first place.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Yea, as much as Bioware probably did "**** up," fan movements to change the content of a game after it's release sets a dangerous precedent and should not be allowed to happen.

That said, I'm sure Bioware/EA are licking their chops at the DLC they can charge for to sell the "new"/"real" ending.  Poor DLC-buyin' saps.

[oohhboy]

Bug fixes and balance changes the content of a game. Are you saying all fan feed back is negative and developers should never give a damn? This isn't a precedent setting event. There has always been some level of feedback after games were finished. Most of the times it deals with bugs, balance, exploits, gameplay and once in a while story continuity errors. This is probably the first time it has made a really visible presence on consoles. Normally this is done in quiet discussion. Imagine if Nintendo had engineered in hooks to fix MK7 Mahu Wuho, a legitimate problem, would you be against fixing it? Do be careful about making blanket statements.

So yeah, I outright reject your notion that this is a dangerous precedent or a precedent in anyway. You can be excused for having a short/limited gaming memory.

[Fatty The Hutt]

Cupcake Protest at Bioware Edmonton
http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/gamers+get+creative+in+protesting+biowares+mass+effect+3/6442610965/story.html
saw this on my local morning show the other day
seems reasonable

[broodwars]

You can argue about their methods, but you have to admit they were effective (much as Operation Rainfall was with similar fervor): Bioware just announced the free "Extended Cut" ME3 DLC to rectify the Ending situation.  Allow me to repeat that for the benefit of NinSage: the DLC is free.

I would also note that this does not set a precedence, because the precedence has already been set with games like Fallout 3 (which also had its ending changed in a later piece of DLC, though for somewhat different reasons).

[Jonnyboy117]

Here is a very good article as to why ME3's ending failed.

That is indeed a great article, but I don't think it shows why the ending failed. It shows that some people had unrealistic expectations about what is possible in this kind of storytelling. It also illustrates how BioWare's handling of the trilogy was so good that some fans misunderstood just how customized the experience actually was. The whole thing is a big misunderstanding, one in which the developer has been unable or perhaps not allowed to explain its position and why things are what they are.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

I have no investment in this situation, having not played any of the Mass Effect games (maybe I'll get around to it when they are all nice and cheap). However, on a philosophical level, I'm kind of disappointed that BioWare caved in and is producing DLC for the sole purpose of appeasing the vocal detractors. Regardless of whether or not they fulfilled on all the promises they made for this series, I was hoping that the team had the integrity as designers to stand by their work. If some people dislike the direction that Mass Effect 3 took, that's their prerogative, but the developer should not feel pressured to add content in order to justify their decisions to these people.

[Traveller]

I have no investment in this situation, having not played any of the Mass Effect games (maybe I'll get around to it when they are all nice and cheap). However, on a philosophical level, I'm kind of disappointed that BioWare caved in and is producing DLC for the sole purpose of appeasing the vocal detractors. Regardless of whether or not they fulfilled on all the promises they made for this series, I was hoping that the team had the integrity as designers to stand by their work. If some people dislike the direction that Mass Effect 3 took, that's their prerogative, but the developer should not feel pressured to add content in order to justify their decisions to these people.

Exactly!

[broodwars]

I have no investment in this situation, having not played any of the Mass Effect games (maybe I'll get around to it when they are all nice and cheap). However, on a philosophical level, I'm kind of disappointed that BioWare caved in and is producing DLC for the sole purpose of appeasing the vocal detractors. Regardless of whether or not they fulfilled on all the promises they made for this series, I was hoping that the team had the integrity as designers to stand by their work. If some people dislike the direction that Mass Effect 3 took, that's their prerogative, but the developer should not feel pressured to add content in order to justify their decisions to these people.

I don't completely disagree with you, as I think there is a certain artistic vision that game developers need to have to create a unique and interesting product.  Here's the thing, though (and I realize that this is an unpopular opinion): video games are products.  They can be artistic and have grand visions, but at the end of the day their primary goal is to be something that their audience wants to buy.  Bioware spent the entirety of the Mass Effect series drumming-up user choice in the series, how a user's experience with the trilogy would be their story.  That was the product they sold to gamers with Mass Effect 3, but it was not the product that gamers got and Bioware apparently failed to properly convey the story they wanted to tell instead.  "The Customer is Always Right", so if you're going to deliver something that's not quite what they want, your audience had better think that it's what they wanted all along by the end.

I think they had a moral obligation to either deliver on their promises or better tell the story they intended to tell so their audience comes away satisfied, and hopefully this DLC does just that.

[oohhboy]

I believe it perfectly illustrated as to why they failed. They ended the game with at a singular choke point. Add in the bad writing combined with the use of most laziest writing device a writer could use tied to endings that make absolutely no connection to past choices that are completely arbitrary and toss in the build up, you get a perfect storm. There wasn't one point of failure, it was a chain of failures and had at least one of them not happen, they wouldn't be in this mess.

Look back to Fallout 3 and why that ending failed. You were given an arbitrary binary choice that didn't even take into account the logic of it's own universe. Someone needed to turn something on in a high radiation environment. You could either send yourself or your companion. If you send yourself you get praised as the new Jesus figure living up to the ideals of your father. If you send in your companion, you betrayed everything you stood for and is considered evil. The problem was that there are a number of companions who are immune to radiation, so would make for the perfect solution to the problem. There is a side B where you were automatically evil by poisoning everyone. Plus the game pretty much just ends. The DLC and the rejigged ending didn't make it any better, it in fact made it more stupid.

Had they made an epilogue that tied your final ending choice to all the other threads, they wouldn't have this problem. If you have played Fallout 1 or 2 you would know exactly what I am talking about. the end wasn't about killing the final boss. It was the epilogue detailing the consequences of your actions that was the true ending, the payoff, one customised to your journey. It wasn't some expensive series of clip shows. It was a series of background pictures and a voice over with subtitles. That is good enough, the player only wanted affirmation that their actions meant something.

I consider bad story telling no different than a bug in a game and should treated as such. There is no integrity to the ending to uphold considering they themselves held it to such low esteem and failed to allocate enough effort to it. There is no integrity to be had standing by something that is wrong. Willingness to admit that you were wrong and correct your mistakes is a sign of real integrity. To me it would be like standing by a show stopping bug and not fixing it claiming it was artistic direction, that it's a feature, not a bug.

[TJ Spyke]

How many movies have you seen that left you with the feeling the "Wow that was a horrible ending, why did they think that was any good?" only to find directors cuts and extra endings upon viewing which did much better.

But you don't have morons suing the movie studio and filing complaints with the FTC and BBB over it. You don't like the ending? Then make your own game. The games are the creative outlet for the developer and it's THEIR choice as to what happens. BioWare should not give into the demand of a few whiny fans who think they should get anything they want. Do they have a right to complain? Sure, anybody can complain about anything they want. Those fans should learn how to be mature though.

[broodwars]

But you don't have morons suing the movie studio and filing complaints with the FTC and BBB over it. You don't like the ending? Then make your own game. The games are the creative outlet for the developer and it's THEIR choice as to what happens. BioWare should not give into the demand of a few whiny fans who think they should get anything they want. Do they have a right to complain? Sure, anybody can complain about anything they want. Those fans should learn how to be mature though.

I don't agree with the extreme methods that certain fans used to lobby for this new ending, but art is not created in a vacuum.  It never has been.  Art is created to be something that the artist's audience wants to see, preferably something they want to buy so the artist can make more art.  I think too often artists are given god-like status and free reign to do whatever they want regardless of whether there's an audience that wants it, and they are pretentiously defended as omniscient and untouchable.  Developers are indebted to their customers to give them the product they want, or give them a product they think they wanted by the end of the experience.  If they can't, they are failed artists.

Bioware's fans were right to complain to get this ending changed if Bioware failed in convincing them that their vision of an ending was what they wanted, though the fans certainly went too far.

[TJ Spyke]

The fans have a right to complain, but they don't have a right to expect the ending to change. If BioWare wants, they can make a alternate ending (which they likely would do anyways because they can get an extra $10-15 per person), but the canon ending should be the ones they created originally. Art in general is an expression of what the artist wants, I don't think it should be corrupted by catering to what some people want. I can think of far worse endings (like any NES game that just had something like "Thank You For Playing!").

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

They can be artistic and have grand visions, but at the end of the day their primary goal is to be something that their audience wants to buy.  Bioware spent the entirety of the Mass Effect series drumming-up user choice in the series, how a user's experience with the trilogy would be their story.  That was the product they sold to gamers with Mass Effect 3, but it was not the product that gamers got and Bioware apparently failed to properly convey the story they wanted to tell instead.  "The Customer is Always Right", so if you're going to deliver something that's not quite what they want, your audience had better think that it's what they wanted all along by the end.

Well, that's where we diverge, because that mantra, "The Customer is Always Right", is rooted in American culture, where good public service is valued more than it is in the UK, for example. I don't believe that the customer is always right.

In my view, it's the creator's vision that should take precedence, not the creator's perception of what the consumer thinks should happen. I don't want to be reductive, but I'm tempted to say that if the consumer isn't happy with the end product and reckons they could do better, they should make something themselves.

[broodwars]

In my view, it's the creator's vision that should take precedence, not the creator's perception of what the consumer thinks should happen. I don't want to be reductive, but I'm tempted to say that if the consumer isn't happy with the end product and reckons they could do better, they should make something themselves.

A creator's vision is fine, but if you can't convince your audience that your vision is worthwhile than you have failed.  Bioware obviously failed based on the public outcry, and being "the creator" doesn't make them untouchable.  And if Bioware wanted to sell any more games, it was in their best interest to take a second crack at actually being competent storytellers.

[TJ Spyke]

If you enjoy 99% of the game, then not liking that last 1% (even less than that) doesn't make them bad storytellers. And based on how many people have bought the game so far, the amount who are complaining are in the minority. I would bet that even if BioWare doesn't provide an alternate ending, most of those complaining will still buy their next game the day it releases.

[broodwars]

If you enjoy 99% of the game, then not liking that last 1% (even less than that) doesn't make them bad storytellers. And based on how many people have bought the game so far, the amount who are complaining are in the minority. I would bet that even if BioWare doesn't provide an alternate ending, most of those complaining will still buy their next game the day it releases.

When you tell an epic story like Mass Effect, the ending is the most important part as it is what you have been building up towards throughout the journey.  If you pull the strings at the end and the story doesn't come together, you merely have a series of interesting strands waving in the wind and have failed at your main goal.  And, yes, that makes you a bad storyteller in my eyes, since you apparently didn't know what to do with your story once you had it.

[oohhboy]

You are right they shouldn't have launched lawsuits and filed with the FTC and the BBB, but that is a product of the American society. Everything about it is heading towards or is adversarial, Us vs Them. That mind set shows up in these very forums where people would pick a side, draw an arbitrary line in the sand and defend it to the death for no other reason than to satisfy their idealogical ego while painting everybody on the other side the same colour. It has happened in this very thread.

Ninsage made indefensible blanket statements.

Yea, as much as Bioware probably did "**** up," fan movements to change the content of a game after it's release sets a dangerous precedent and should not be allowed to happen.

Traveller called an entire industry worth of customers selfish idiots. A NWR staff member!

On the topic of the ME3 ending. I have not played any of them, but I think that this debacle just portrays video game players as being selfish idiots. I get that the ending may be terrible etc. But trying to get the developer to change it is wrong and I hope Bioware does not give in to the demands.

TJ, your missing the point. Artists aren't infallible, no one is. They make mistakes and most of the time we don't see the mistakes since they fix them before we see them. If this was a airplane, Bioware took off smoothly, cruised to the destination efficiently, only to crash the plane on landing declaring it a success. A story is a package of those 3 elements, you fail one, you fail the others as they are interlinked. They can't undo the landing, but they can go through the black box, figure out what when wrong and make good on their mistakes. It's not that the customer is always right, it's that the producer can be wrong. Bioware got called out on an obvious mistake. You are defending artist like people defend cops even when they do something very wrong. "They can't be wrong, they are Cops!", wrong, they are fallible human beings.

Also don't pull out NES game endings as a straw man, we are over 20 years removed from that. If you are going to pull out the "Thank you for playing " Card, pick a recent game with such an ending that generated some sort of emotional out pouring. I mean, if you were to pick something with asinine ending, pick a fighting game like Tekken with it's speedo wearing man servant and boxing Kangaroos. The problem with that is the fans of those games just don't give a **** about the endings, so it is ok to have a horrible ending.

I doubt they are going to have an alternate ending. The addition is going to be a dynamic epilogue of some sort. That's what I would bet on.

[Traveller]

It doesn't matter if the ending is bad or if a new ending is better. Once it has been released that should always be the correct version of things. New ending may appease people, but it should never be the canonical version.

Look at star wars for a reverse of this argument.