Topic: Games That Retro Studios Should Be Developing for the Wii U

[broodwars]

Why would you want to change the best part of Star Fox (i.e. the on-rail parts)? Sure, everyone enjoyed taking out StarWolf (or trying to) during the Independence Day like mission in StarFox 64, but the meat and potatoes of the games was flying through space debris and asteroid fields as you shot enemies or blew up obstructions so you could "USE THE BOOST TO GET THROUGH!"

That's StarFox. That's why it was so fun. Changing it would be change the game.

Yeah, and that design was fine...15+ years ago for the first 2 games when our consoles really couldn't do 3D polygonal space combat well.  But the industry has changed, and we can do better than the On-Rails Shooter now.  Star Fox needs to get with the times (especially since Rail Shooters don't sell anymore), and the Rogue Squadron games were a good example of how to do so.

[Ian Sane]

I find that Rogue Leader gives me the same sort of thrill that Star Fox 64 does so a Star Fox in that style would work fine.  The problem with the recent games has been more of the stupid design to get out of the vehicles.  Hell Rogue Squadron 3 had that problem as well.  Devs don't like people staying in vehicles for some reason.

I don't see however why free range and rail levels can't co-exist.  You can make it mostly free range and then have times where Fox flies into a space station that puts the level on rails.  Think of the Space Armada level in Star Fox.  That can only be done on rails.  Same with the train level in Star Fox 64.  The devs can be smart about it and not make a purely on-rails shooter but put in on-rails gameplay in many sections.  Some level concepts favour free range and some favour on-rails.

[King of Twitch]

Retro is great at making lush, beautiful environments to explore and organic looking enemies to blast. In SF you'll just be looking at them out the window at 250mph, thinking of Krystal. What's the point?

[Kytim89]

Thi is what I had in mind for Star Fox Wii U:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE6kyoY6KGc

[ThePerm]

that looks like the shadow of the empire flight level.


it would be cool if there were worlds that were round that you could fly back and forth to, a whole solar system full of interesting stuff. There would be races from one place to another place, and event you had to participate in. If you wanted you could land your ARwing and walk around the animal city. So yeah GTA meets Starfox.

[TrueNerd]

Miyamoto chimed in on this discussion today. He said Retro could make a Zelda game. I'd be in for that.

[Adrock]

Star Fox could stand to be less serious and should steer away from realistic graphics as much as possible.

I liked the ideas that suggested by Lithium a page back. The puppet style art direction would make Star Fox stand out. It'd be a good way of semi-rebooting the series. And if Nintendo could find the talent to pull off a Fantastic Mr. Star Fox or a self-referencing parody, they should totally go for it. At this point, I'm pretty much willing to accept anything that isn't furry melodrama.

[Ian Sane]

Perm, are you honestly suggesting the ability to get out and walk around as a good idea?  The second Fox steps his foot outside of his ship the game is fucked!

[Kytim89]

The only time Star Fox should get out of his ship is between missions on the Great Fox. I imgaine him walking around the hanger bay where the Arwings and other vehicules are stored. This is where Fox will speak to his crew mates.
 
Here are some of my ideas for the game:
 
The Arwings should be customizable in a similar manner as th karts in Mario Kart.
 
There should be a ton of side missions where Fox can earn money to enhance the weapons, shields and features of the Star Fox team's Arwings.
 
Diverse levels that take advantage of the horse power of the Wii U.
 
Motion Plus integration in some manner.

[ThePerm]

yes, i am serious. People just try to make the same games over and over again, and there's little depth beyond the first one. Japanese companies like Namco will do this thing where they try to add something and terribly fail at it. They do it on such a small scale that its just a passable stupid level. I think about making a Star Fox game. I throw 90% of the ideas ever used in Star Fox, and I think about what it would be like if Star Fox was never made and we had the opportunity to make a sci-fi game about anthropomorphic animals with a star wars influence. How would you create that world. You take for instance Star Fox Aventures, that wasn't really a star fox game to begin with, that was Dinosaur Planet with sheeps clothing.

What interests me is why are the Animals at war with the simians, what are the simians doing to take over the galaxy, what are the plotting, is there some sort of political lean? What really makes Andros evil? How did this come to be. Is there some sort of freedom fighting resistance? This is a futuristic setting, so what is the underground of the anti-simian movement like? You could probably draw some parralels to BG&E. Then you have the original game and its just space flights, its essentially 1942 with a different perspective, and while this is fun, its stale. What really needs to change is the game goes from being this feeble universe of point a to point B to this epic massive dense thing.

[Stogi]

You are thinking about it like a script-writer and not a game designer. A game designer shouldn't give two shits why Andros is evil. He shouldn't give a **** about politics.

just sayin

[BlackNMild2k1]

Minor detail
But should we really call Starfox on-rails? As it is more a corridor flying game.
It's like the old top down shooters only in full 3D.

[Kytim89]

If Retro is developing a Star Fox game then they should allow the option of switching the voice overs to the gibberish found in the original Star Fox game.
 
ROB 64 should be changed to "ROB U" for the Wii U game.

[Kytim89]

Being developed for a HD system, I would really want whoever makes Star Fox for the Wii U to design the Arwings in terms of actual aerospace pyhsics to feel like actual aircraft. Authenticity is what i am getting at.
 

[Spak-Spang]

Yeah, I know I am the minority, but I don't care anything about any story in a game.  I want to play an awesome game...and if the game if fun, I am happy.

With Star Fox, I agree it is more a sidescrolling shooter in 3D, and that gameplay really allows for a very specific level design idea.  Yeah...its on rails, but it isn't like House of Dead were you are only shooting...you are doing alot of maneuvers. 

However...making a game that allows you to do more moves while onrail might be important. 

The problem with Rogue Squadron type games is that it is easy to get lost and lost the point of a level...or just get side tracked.  The game works great when all you have to do is kill things and the experience is awesome...but when you have to do other missions it breaks down.

This is where tight level design and player limitation actually comes in handy.  For instance if you make an escort level limit your distance from the target you are protecting it makes it easier to make tighter more focused enemy placement and allows the player to feel more in control.

Another problem with space shooters is the problem with blind spots.  In First Person Shooters, blindspots don't matter as much because you are not always moving forward, but in a flight game you are always moving, and can easily crash or get lost in the action. 

Star Fox's designs actually avoid most of these problems.

[Ian Sane]

yes, i am serious. People just try to make the same games over and over again, and there's little depth beyond the first one. Japanese companies like Namco will do this thing where they try to add something and terribly fail at it. They do it on such a small scale that its just a passable stupid level. I think about making a Star Fox game. I throw 90% of the ideas ever used in Star Fox, and I think about what it would be like if Star Fox was never made and we had the opportunity to make a sci-fi game about anthropomorphic animals with a star wars influence. How would you create that world. You take for instance Star Fox Aventures, that wasn't really a star fox game to begin with, that was Dinosaur Planet with sheeps clothing.

What interests me is why are the Animals at war with the simians, what are the simians doing to take over the galaxy, what are the plotting, is there some sort of political lean? What really makes Andros evil? How did this come to be. Is there some sort of freedom fighting resistance? This is a futuristic setting, so what is the underground of the anti-simian movement like? You could probably draw some parralels to BG&E. Then you have the original game and its just space flights, its essentially 1942 with a different perspective, and while this is fun, its stale. What really needs to change is the game goes from being this feeble universe of point a to point B to this epic massive dense thing.

You just look at the game with different priorities then.  I look at Star Fox as this game where you're a pilot and you and your crew are involved in dog fights in a space setting.  I don't think too much about the specifics of the world as that is of minimal relevance to the gameplay.  Star Fox is essentially a shmup.  I play it to fly around in a spaceship blasting the crap out of enemies trying to kill me.  I like the characters and the setting and don't think those should be glossed over but the gameplay is all about spaceship combat.  That's what is necessary to make it a Star Fox game.

People talk a lot about the characters in F-Zero and how they should branch them out.  I think they can do it in a spin-off but F-Zero isn't about the characters, it's about high-speed hovercar racing.  I don't really care about Captain Falcon's bounty hunter history.  He's just a cool visual design for a pilot for the hovercar I'm racing with.  The racing is what makes the game.

If you focus too much on the characters and story you get OTHER M!  Sakamoto sees Metroid as Samus Aran and Ridley and the space pirates.  I see Metroid as a game where the world is one big area that you explore in a non-linear manner, fighting enemies, uncovering secrets and gaining new abilities that allow you to explore further areas.  Sakamoto focused on the characters and story and made a Metroid game I thought was complete horseshit because its gameplay had very little connection to the rest of the series.  As a result it completely missed the whole point of why I and many others like the series in the first place.

If you want to focus on story elements books and movies are the place to go.  Gameplay is key so when I think of videogame ideas it's always gameplay first.

[King of Twitch]

Jeeze if all the fanboys' ideas are this bad, just imagine what Nintendo will do to it. Next they'll be doki doki panicking the franchise all over again.

[Lithium]

You are thinking about it like a script-writer and not a game designer. A game designer shouldn't give two shits why Andros is evil. He shouldn't give a **** about politics.

just sayin

Well I agree in that Starfox shouldn't be taken seriously, but that aproach isn't a bad thing for a game designer to have if he/she is setting out to do a serious game. I can count all the videogame stories I actually cared about with my fingers.


but back on topic taking that approach to the story is better suited to games that already take themselves seriously. The main reason Other M bombed wasnt because it had a story it was because Sakamoto is a horrible scriptwriter.

[broodwars]

but back on topic taking that approach to the story is better suited to games that already take themselves seriously. The main reason Other M bombed wasnt because it had a story it was because Sakamoto is a horrible scriptwriter.

Precisely.  I wouldn't have minded Other M's story if it were actually good and well-told.  But it's not.  In fact, it's one of the worst examples of video game storytelling I've ever seen, let alone what it does to Samus Aran as a character.

I thought the story of the original Star Fox/Star Fox 64 (since Star Fox 64 is basically a remake of the original Star Fox) was merely ok in its simplistic, archetypical nature.  But after Star Fox 64, the entire franchise just went off the deep end story-wise, seemingly becoming more about Furry Fan-fiction than actual storytelling. 

The series needs to get back to basics with actual storytelling that's well-done, but not too forceful.  As much as I'm into the intricacies of Sci-Fi universes and "Epic G-damn Space Opera" in particular, that's probably too much for most people.  I'd settle for a well-told story that doesn't just feel like background noise, which is how the first two games felt.

And for the love of all that is holy, re-cast Slippy with a voice that's not incredibly obnoxious for once.

[Caliban]

Retro is great at making lush, beautiful environments to explore and organic looking enemies to blast. In SF you'll just be looking at them out the window at 250mph, thinking of Krystal. What's the point?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Being developed for a HD system, I would really want whoever makes Star Fox for the Wii U to design the Arwings in terms of actual aerospace pyhsics to feel like actual aircraft. Authenticity is what i am getting at.

Oh lord.

[MegaByte]

Yeah, and that design was fine...15+ years ago for the first 2 games when our consoles really couldn't do 3D polygonal space combat well.  But the industry has changed, and we can do better than the On-Rails Shooter now.  Star Fox needs to get with the times (especially since Rail Shooters don't sell anymore), and the Rogue Squadron games were a good example of how to do so.

Star Fox's predecessors were full 3D. There are other outlets for 3D space battles. Star Fox was always best as a rail shooter.

[broodwars]

Star Fox's predecessors were full 3D. There are other outlets for 3D space battles.

Oh really? Where?  Who is doing full 3D arcade-style space combat games anymore?  I can't think of any made after the Rogue Squadron games.  I think even the Wing Commander games were done by then.  Some companies still make 3D aerial combat games like the Ace Combat or HAWXS series, but I can't stand how those games control and I can't think of any space-based ones.

Star Fox was always best as a rail shooter.

Nintendo sucking at making full 3D combat scenarios does not equate to rail shooters being the superior gameplay style.  I'll take just about any Rogue Leader stage over any Star Fox 64 Rail Shooter level.  Rail Shooters have run their course.  They're fine for the off-hand level or so for a change of pace, but like many Nintendo franchises Star Fox needs to move forward.  It can't always be the 2-hour long (at best) Rail Shooter with questionable replay value anymore.  There's no value in that in today's market.

[MegaByte]

There are lots of flight combat games, especially on PC. X-Scape, though that's a little different. Ace Combat. It's not space, but same thing (and also the part of Star Fox Assault that sucked). Nobody else does rail shooters. Hardly anybody ever did rail shooters. Nintendo hasn't shown what a good rail shooter is anytime recently. They haven't run their course.
Edit: Before anybody mentions it, Sin & Punishment isn't the same thing.

[ThePerm]

yes, i am serious. People just try to make the same games over and over again, and there's little depth beyond the first one. Japanese companies like Namco will do this thing where they try to add something and terribly fail at it. They do it on such a small scale that its just a passable stupid level. I think about making a Star Fox game. I throw 90% of the ideas ever used in Star Fox, and I think about what it would be like if Star Fox was never made and we had the opportunity to make a sci-fi game about anthropomorphic animals with a star wars influence. How would you create that world. You take for instance Star Fox Aventures, that wasn't really a star fox game to begin with, that was Dinosaur Planet with sheeps clothing.

What interests me is why are the Animals at war with the simians, what are the simians doing to take over the galaxy, what are the plotting, is there some sort of political lean? What really makes Andros evil? How did this come to be. Is there some sort of freedom fighting resistance? This is a futuristic setting, so what is the underground of the anti-simian movement like? You could probably draw some parralels to BG&E. Then you have the original game and its just space flights, its essentially 1942 with a different perspective, and while this is fun, its stale. What really needs to change is the game goes from being this feeble universe of point a to point B to this epic massive dense thing.

You just look at the game with different priorities then.  I look at Star Fox as this game where you're a pilot and you and your crew are involved in dog fights in a space setting.  I don't think too much about the specifics of the world as that is of minimal relevance to the gameplay.  Star Fox is essentially a shmup.  I play it to fly around in a spaceship blasting the crap out of enemies trying to kill me.  I like the characters and the setting and don't think those should be glossed over but the gameplay is all about spaceship combat.  That's what is necessary to make it a Star Fox game.

People talk a lot about the characters in F-Zero and how they should branch them out.  I think they can do it in a spin-off but F-Zero isn't about the characters, it's about high-speed hovercar racing.  I don't really care about Captain Falcon's bounty hunter history.  He's just a cool visual design for a pilot for the hovercar I'm racing with.  The racing is what makes the game.

If you focus too much on the characters and story you get OTHER M!  Sakamoto sees Metroid as Samus Aran and Ridley and the space pirates.  I see Metroid as a game where the world is one big area that you explore in a non-linear manner, fighting enemies, uncovering secrets and gaining new abilities that allow you to explore further areas.  Sakamoto focused on the characters and story and made a Metroid game I thought was complete horseshit because its gameplay had very little connection to the rest of the series.  As a result it completely missed the whole point of why I and many others like the series in the first place.

If you want to focus on story elements books and movies are the place to go.  Gameplay is key so when I think of videogame ideas it's always gameplay first.

im not into telling story through cinemas, im more into ubiquitous story telling. Like metroid prime or portal. Theres story all around you, you just have to look for it. Also the gta series in the way it sets up missions for you to do. Say your just talking to some rabbits on this one planet trying to collect some money to buy a part for your ship, and then they tell you theres a secret item that they want captured from this floating asteroid. The only problem is to get this item on the astroid, your going to have to fly through space to the meteor and then through a cave system of the meteor. When you start to fly there you see that you have some competition and they become your enemies, it turns into a regular starfox mission. Not big cinema type stuff, kinda like when your playing zelda and you talk to the marathon runner and he bets you that he can beat you to the bridge, except instead of walking and riding epona to the bridge you take an ARwing through the solar system.

[Spak-Spang]

I like what Ian had to say about integrating online rail shooters and free range shooters.  Nintendo did that already, but always just as a single level or an end level scenario.  How about having a game that Incorporates both seamlessly and creates multiple instances of it.

One level could be a race to a hidden base...as you go you find out that someone is stalking you or trying to stop you.  This battles starts as an inclusion to the on rails section...but a trap is set against you and you are now in a fight for your life.  You go into a free range battle and as you overcome the battle...you damage your attackers ship...and they begin to flee, into a nearby asteroid field.  You chase after them shifting back into an on rails race through the asteroid system.  The battle ends in a boss fight in traditional Star Fox manner.