Author Topic: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...  (Read 28845 times)

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Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2006, 09:49:48 AM »
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And when those computers can run OSX legit, I'll buy one of those instead.


From how it's going, I wouldn't doubt that Apple would do that soon. After all, if the OSX runs on x86 Intel Macs, why won't it run on an x86 Intel PC?

...That might be a good move for them to do, actually. Might net them more marketshare.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2006, 11:05:38 AM »
That's been a large subject of debate.

Other than the windows zealots and PC gamers, would people chose to run OSX on productivity machines if they could?

More to the point, what happens when OSX runs windows in the background and people start installing it on PCs? You get the stability and near-invulnerability of OSX with all of the applications you might need to run from windows, all from the same computer.

Also, I should note this: when the Mac-Intel towers are released (which will likely be running a chip which is a modified Xeon processor), those WILL be the fastest commercial Windows PCs in the world. What better reason to switch to OSX when it not only runs windows at the same time but runs it faster than any Dell, Gateway or Alienware (before they got bought) ever could?

And yes, I'm talking about average Joe consumer X, not about the mod freak who has a freon cooling system rigged up to his/her windows box.
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Offline Galford

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2006, 05:24:10 PM »
Wow, it's been so long since I've seen a good Windows vs. Mac thread.

No, really...
Just a couple of points.

One reason OSX doesn't crash as much as Windows is Apple controls both
the hardware and softwar of the Mac.

As stated earlier, if OSX was released into the wild, it would suffer the same problems as Windows.
I don't think you'll ever see Windows run as seemlessly on Macs and on a PC setup.
Yes, I know Boot Camp does work as advertised.

I don't thinks Jobs wants to compete with the Dell and HPs of the world.
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Offline capamerica

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2006, 07:20:35 PM »
You know whats funny. The core of OSX, FreeBSD is Open Source so anyone can look at the code and create a virus that could attack a flaw in that, but no one does or better yet no one can.

Yet with Windows they're are hundreds of  thousands of Viruses released every year and Windows is closed so no one can even peek at the code.

It was because of the fact that FreeBSD is Open Source that we were able to find ways to hack OSX for Intel to run on generic PC hardware. If hackers can hack OSX to run on generic PC hardware then why can't any of them create a simple virus and collect the $50,000. The Hackers collected the prize money for getting WindowsXP to boot on a Intel Mac and if I recall correctly there was a similar prize for getting OSX to run on a PC.

As I stated before I'm currently running Mac OSX 10.4.7 on my 3.0Ghz AMD64, I've been running OSX on my PC since August 2005 and I haven't had a single crash, It has never froze and I have never had to restart it (outside installing a new App) For a OS that wasn't even designed to run on a AMD chip OSX runs pretty damn nice.

I think with in a few years we may see OSX starting to pop up on other PCs. I think it will start out with companies like Dell, Sony, HP and Gateway offering it as an alternative to Windows 2010, so the only way to get it is as a OEM and then from there we might someday start seeing it being sold in a normal retail package. It all really depends on how long Apple needs to relie on Mac Hardware sales, Apple has been slowly moving away from that with all their new programs, iTunes and the iPod. So maybe with in a few years Apple will not have to worry as much about how many Macs they sell and can start licensing OSX out.

And one last thing, S_B brings up a good point. All the Mac OSes that came out before OSX had Viruses and they were less popular then OSX. OS 8 & 9 had alot of viruses, No where near as many as Windows but there were enough that having antivirus on a Mac was a must. But now you have OSX which already has over double the popularity and users numbers then OS8&9 and there isn't a single virus out there for them. Its not because its less popular then Windows its the fact that OSX is really that secure.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2006, 07:44:02 PM »
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Originally posted by: capamerica Apple has been slowly moving away from that with all their new programs, iTunes and the iPod. So maybe with in a few years Apple will not have to worry as much about how many Macs they sell and can start licensing OSX out.


I hadn't thought about that.

I'm willing to bet that the profit margins from iTunes and the iPod are more than their hardware margins could ever hope to be.

They may one day decide that releasing an OS which pushes iTunes for any and ever computer out there would be more profitable than ensuring they have their own hardware under every install of OSX.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2006, 01:24:15 AM »
Since iTunes is on Windows I can't see that being a primary pusher for OSX on x86 adoption. iPod pushes iTunes, not the computers.

Anyway, I can't find it now but the math was done. For Apple to essentially "replace" their computer division with OSX licensing on PCs, they would have to sell something in the neighborhood of 60 million more copies of OSX *a year* at current profit margins. Not to mention that their current size as a company is only meant to support 5% (or whatever) of the market, and they would have to grow their overhead costs exponentially to support such an effort, IF it were possible and were successful. They could enter new markets to subsidize, but even still...

So it's a huge mountain to climb. But we knew that.

Another interesting tidbit which may or may not be relevant... The iPod deal with HP was supposed to be huge. HP has a worldwide retail and channel and distribution presence that Apple could only dream of. They licensed the iPod and despite this huge asset, the HP units only accounted for 8% of iPod sales. Bottom line: People didn't want the HPods even though they were the same exact thing. They wanted the "Apple" iPod.

Would a PC OEM with OSX even be accepted by the mainstream, or would it become another HPod? Frankly I don't really want to see them license the OS. They are like Nintendo in that they have a distinct vision about what hardware and software should be (in their eyes). It could taint the Apple image.  Just IMHO.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2006, 03:06:07 AM »
Sorry, I managed to not communicate the underlying point here which was that Apple only uses high-quality components which are drastically less likely to fail.

When you order from some PC manufacturer, it's their prerogative to use the cheapest components they can find because they're charging you so damn little for the PC as it is that they'll do anything to make a profit. Macs may cost more, but you get what you pay for.


That's what parts lists are for.

Other than the windows zealots and PC gamers, would people chose to run OSX on productivity machines if they could?

Most productivity machines are owned by companies or other larger institutions. They can just plop Macs in there without much trouble but from what I see they mostly prefer Linux and Solaris.

More to the point, what happens when OSX runs windows in the background and people start installing it on PCs? You get the stability and near-invulnerability of OSX with all of the applications you might need to run from windows, all from the same computer.

Wait, so if you push Windows on an emulation layer it suddently becomes highly secure?

capamerica: BSD is known for trading everything else for security. Out of date drivers, GUIs, applications, etc. Pure BSD is very secure (but not invulnerable) and lacks many features even Linux had for a loooong time now. You can only make guesses about the layers of proprietary software Apple put on top of that and most vulnerabilities are going to sit there.

For a OS that wasn't even designed to run on a AMD chip OSX runs pretty damn nice.

The chip is the least problematic thing, x86 chips(I think we have to say IA32 these days as there is very little of the original 8086 remaining) are compatible to the point where the OS hardly knows what it's running on. Try peripherials like USB scanners, printers, modems, stuff like that. Those are the biggest source of driver problems.

For Apple to essentially "replace" their computer division with OSX licensing on PCs, they would have to sell something in the neighborhood of 60 million more copies of OSX *a year* at current profit margins.

Tells you something about the profit margins on Mac hardware, doesn't it?

Offline capamerica

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2006, 04:49:26 AM »
Try peripherials like USB scanners, printers, modems, stuff like that. Those are the biggest source of driver problems.

Never had any problems todate, The only peripheral I've ever had to install drivers for was for my Scanner, and it was more for Photoshop then OSX, OSX saw it right off the bat, Photoshop didn't.

OSX is really good with external peripherals, Internal is a bit more tricky, But so far I've been pretty lucky and the OSx86 community has been pretty good at writing drivers.

I could say more but its getting pretty obvious that no matter what anyone says your still going to argue it and never except it. All I can say is until you actually use a Mac for more then a few hours you'll NEVER understand.
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2006, 07:02:42 AM »
I'm personally with KDR. I have nothing against Macs, love them really sa they were my beginning lifeblood early on, but PCs are not the insta-cripple machines and omni virii traps I'm seeing them referred to here. In my near 10 years of owning PCs I have only caught abotu 3 major virii, anything else has been incredibly trivial. Those infections were my own fault for not having my proper security active at the time. 3, in 8 - 10 years and none of them crippled me ebyond repair. I'm not trying to say PCs are insanely stablr or what have you, I'm simply saying that maybe, just maybe, all these PC horror stories you hear about/refer to are from people who shouldn't be touching PCs with a 39 1/2 foot pole.

On another note...I can't wait to playaround on my new setup

AMD Athlon 64 3800+ Venice Core
ASUS A8N5X 939 Socket Motherboard
2GB DDR 400MHz PC3200 RAM
500GB Hard Drive Space (x2 250GB SATA drives)
ATI Radeon X1900GT 256MB PCI Express 16X video card

Carry on

Edit: Oh, and since I noticed Mac vs PC price came into the picture, the price of those components (And the Power supply and case) came to roughly 686, give or take 10. I know it didn't come up to over 700. (Thanks PRiceGrabber and NewEgg!). Granted, I already owned the hard drives so that shaved some significant cost.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2006, 08:33:50 AM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k That's what parts lists are for.


Then I consider never having to look at one before ordering a Mac a luxury. I don't need to worry about what sound card, HD brand, ethernet adapter, etc. I'm going to receive because I've seldom had a problem with them. My HDs under OS9 used to die every now and then. I've yet to lose one under OSX.

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Most productivity machines are owned by companies or other larger institutions. They can just plop Macs in there without much trouble but from what I see they mostly prefer Linux and Solaris.


For ease of use, nothing beats OSX, and I'm saying that from experience.

As a computer tech, you'd be hard pressed to not have a few relatives who think that, because you're tech savvy and a family memeber, they can milk you for all the technical support they'll ever need. Speaking as a guy who relishes every spare second he gets to call his own, this SUCKS. However, once OSX rolled around, I've seen to it that at least 4 relatives have all started using it. Now, these are some of the most computer inept people to walk the planet, and after a few initial questions about OSX, I don't hear a goddamn PEEP out of them. Meanwhile, OS9 and Windows generated plenty of questions from these people (mostly complaints about viruses).

So what's easier to do? Install security and maintenance utilities on the computers of all of these people and attempt to train them to use it and keep everything updated regularly...or see to it that they get an OSX machine and I never hear from them again on the subject of computers?

It's a rhetorical question.

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Wait, so if you push Windows on an emulation layer it suddently becomes highly secure?


No, it becomes OSX's bitch. All of the normal activities which make Windows non-secure (email, web browsing, etc.) are going to be done on the Mac side.

So, yeah, as long as you don't get too many people who, for some godforsaken reason, cling tightly the the twin security abominations of IE and Outlook, Windows will be a great deal more secure because it should never expose any vulnerabilities to the web.

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You can only make guesses about the layers of proprietary software Apple put on top of that and most vulnerabilities are going to sit there.


The same vulnerabilities which even Symantec cannot convince people to find for $50,000?

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The chip is the least problematic thing, x86 chips(I think we have to say IA32 these days as there is very little of the original 8086 remaining) are compatible to the point where the OS hardly knows what it's running on. Try peripherials like USB scanners, printers, modems, stuff like that. Those are the biggest source of driver problems.


That's a given: in any and all cases, it'll be sloppy 3rd party programming which will cause the most issues.

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Tells you something about the profit margins on Mac hardware, doesn't it?


Ever been to Wal-mart and seen those dirt-cheap items which tend to always persist on shelves near the name brand ones? Most people, upon seeing those, will say, "Hey, it's such a bargain!" and buy it, only to have it break or fail on them less than a month later.

That's what windows PCs are: they're cheaper, but they're cheaper for a reason.

Between the fact that my Macs never crash, never lose work which I was in the middle of doing, never become randomly corrupted and need to be repaired, never catch a virus, never become fragmented, never become bogged down with spyware, keep my relatives off my back about tech support and allow me to install one copy of OSX on as many computers as I want, the extra money I've paid for Apple quality has in turn saved me an amount of headaches and hassle monetarily equivalent to the difference I'd pay over windows machines.

The thought has often crossed my mind while struggling with an XP installation: "What would I pay to have avoided this and all subsequent problems I'm going to have with it?"

Windows is trash. It always has been and it always will be. It is a sloppy, poorly-written OS filled with gaping security holes, bad coding choices and ill-fated features which actually damage the OS and pave the way for malware (email scripting, anyone?).

Macs could cost twice what they do now and I'd still buy them. I've dealt with everything, DEC, Redhat, UNIX, even NeXT: Apple is the only company which literally protects my free time by ensuring that I never need to do anything to fix or maintain their computers.

As an additional comparison, buying a PC is like buying a whiny emo for a friend: the f*cker won't shut up about his problems and will spend a great deal of time cutting himself, is always getting sick, but he'll eat at dirt-cheap restaurants.

Buying a mac is like having a friend who never has emotional drama, never needs consoling, never gets sick and never asks any favors. He's always helpful, always has information, and if he says he'll do something, you know it'll happen, he just insists on eating at good restaurants when you go out to eat.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2006, 09:46:32 AM »
So what's easier to do? Install security and maintenance utilities on the computers of all of these people and attempt to train them to use it and keep everything updated regularly...or see to it that they get an OSX machine and I never hear from them again on the subject of computers?

Yeah, you're lucky. I don't know anyone who has enough money to afford a Mac Mini (not even I can afford one, at least not without using up my entire cash reserves). Their computers are combinations of leftovers I generated in previous upgrades to my PC. And obviously they are retarded enough to install random software off the internet and wonder why their computer gets sluggish. If I tell them there's a 50€ way to upgrade their PCs to suck less they would balk at the price. 600€ is completely out of question. Don't believe I haven't tried getting my father to buy a Mac for himself (but it'll drive him nuts if it's anything like Linux and insists on secure passwords, he thinks passwords are for paranoids).

Although I believe I'd still have to take away his root password to prevent him from screwing the computer up. He's the kind who, when he sees a warning, just clicks "okay" and wonders what it was about. You can label an option "do NOT change" and he'll change it. If I had a Euro every time I told him that that option has NOTHING to do with what he's trying to accomplish and in fact turning it on will make 100% sure that it won't work and he still goes ahead and activates it while telling me he thinks it will work. ("No, don't turn that on, we've already got a DHCP on the network and that will just cause a conflict" "I'll turn it on" "No you won't" "I think I should try it" "You shouldn't" "You don't know it won't work until you try it" "I know damn well it won't work because I understand just what the hell you're doing there" "I'll go ahead and turn it on then" Damn, sounds like a Dilbert strip)

That's what windows PCs are: they're cheaper, but they're cheaper for a reason.

That reason being that they aren't made by a company that considers itself to have a monopoly on its product (except for Windows but that's not the PC).

As an additional comparison, buying a PC is like buying a whiny emo for a friend: the f*cker won't shut up about his problems and will spend a great deal of time cutting himself, is always getting sick, but he'll eat at dirt-cheap restaurants.

Then my emo must have cut his throat already because my computer isn't complaining at all.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2006, 10:15:36 AM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k Yeah, you're lucky. I don't know anyone who has enough money to afford a Mac Mini (not even I can afford one, at least not without using up my entire cash reserves). Their computers are combinations of leftovers I generated in previous upgrades to my PC. And obviously they are retarded enough to install random software off the internet and wonder why their computer gets sluggish. If I tell them there's a 50€ way to upgrade their PCs to suck less they would balk at the price. 600€ is completely out of question. Don't believe I haven't tried getting my father to buy a Mac for himself (but it'll drive him nuts if it's anything like Linux and insists on secure passwords, he thinks passwords are for paranoids).


Who said anything about a mac-mini?

I give them $200 G4s off of eBay with OSX installed on them and I never hear from them with problems. $80 for the latest OSX CD (which isn't even necessary and I was going to buy it for myself anyway) and $100-300 for the mac itself and that's all they'll need. These are just email and web computers anyway. I can still install OSX on G3s and those can go for even less but they still run JUST fine so long as all they need is basic productivity and not video editing and the like.

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Although I believe I'd still have to take away his root password to prevent him from screwing the computer up. He's the kind who, when he sees a warning, just clicks "okay" and wonders what it was about. You can label an option "do NOT change" and he'll change it. If I had a Euro every time I told him that that option has NOTHING to do with what he's trying to accomplish and in fact turning it on will make 100% sure that it won't work and he still goes ahead and activates it while telling me he thinks it will work. ("No, don't turn that on, we've already got a DHCP on the network and that will just cause a conflict" "I'll turn it on" "No you won't" "I think I should try it" "You shouldn't" "You don't know it won't work until you try it" "I know damn well it won't work because I understand just what the hell you're doing there" "I'll go ahead and turn it on then" Damn, sounds like a Dilbert strip)


He sounds like an ideal OSX candidate. If his processor supports SSE2, then you can install the PC version of OSX on his machine without much issue.

Seriously, I'll give you a URL to download the DVD image of the installer disc (it doesn't come on CDs, sadly). All you'd need to do is burn it and install it on his machine as a dual-boot scenario. I guarantee problems like the aforementioned will be a distant memory after a few months.

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That reason being that they aren't made by a company that considers itself to have a monopoly on its product (except for Windows but that's not the PC).


They're cheaper because they're made from lower quality components.

There's a reason why you can get a "good" gaming PC for $500 or $2,000 which will run the same games: one of them was built with components which are are known for stability and high quality and the other was made from components built by the very lowest bidder.

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Then my emo must have cut his throat already because my computer isn't complaining at all.


No, you're just preemptively attacking his problems so he has nothing to whine about via anti-virus and spyware utils.

And wait until the next unknown virus rolls around: he'll be whining plenty.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2006, 10:20:19 AM »
My father's aunt has a Mac.  It did not magically transform her into a problem-free computer whiz.  It just changed the nature of her questions so that I can't answer them anymore.  Fortunately, she has a son of her own to deal with it.  Computer literacy isn't directly related to the operating system.  Maybe she's less likely to get infected by random viruses now, but she still can't remember how to check her email.  I don't think it would be user-friendly enough for her to understand it even if there were a gigantic Check Email button on the front of the computer and nothing else.

My parents haven't figured out that they can have more than one application running at once, and that something can still be running even if they can't see it behind another window.  I doubt that OSX would help me deal with that.  Yet in spite of that my father knows that he should keep an up-to-date virus scanner and firewall on the computer.  The man can't grasp the concept of Alt+Tab, but he never gets a virus.  It's just not that complicated.  

Offline BigJim

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2006, 10:52:42 AM »
I don't agree with the notion that when you're buying a Mac you're paying more because you're always buying better quality. While it may be true depending on the product, I don't think it's always accurate.

Granted an over-the-counter $400 PC might be a time bomb. I would never touch one of those.

But compared to the industry average of 6-11% margins, Apple's average margins are closer to 20-25%. Much of the "quality hardware premium" is pocketed cash. That's their model, that's how they like it. Margins over volume. If someone wants to say the extra cost is for peace of mind or value as it relates to the iLife software, lack of malware, or even hardware style, etc. then that's cool.  But hardware quality, in general, doesn't always fly. Even IF they incorporate better quality stuff, they're still pocketing more for it.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2006, 11:37:39 AM »
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Originally posted by: PartyBear
My father's aunt has a Mac.  It did not magically transform her into a problem-free computer whiz.  It just changed the nature of her questions so that I can't answer them anymore.  Fortunately, she has a son of her own to deal with it.  Computer literacy isn't directly related to the operating system.  Maybe she's less likely to get infected by random viruses now, but she still can't remember how to check her email.  I don't think it would be user-friendly enough for her to understand it even if there were a gigantic Check Email button on the front of the computer and nothing else.


OSX's primary user friendly feature is the "dock", which is a bar which you can place on the left, right or bottom of the screen which contains all of the applications you use on a regular basis and you can simply click the one you want. The dock can be scaled to any size, can be told to hide when not needed or can be magnified when you mouse over it, making the icon larger. It also always displays the name of the application when you mouse over it regardless of settings.

The mail application is an application called "Mail". It's represented by a big picture of a stamp and has a little red number which appears in the upper right hand corner of the icon which indicates how many new email messages you have at any given time.

I never said OSX transformed people into computer whizzes, but when you remove the need for maintenance from the picture, things can only get better.

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My parents haven't figured out that they can have more than one application running at once, and that something can still be running even if they can't see it behind another window.  I doubt that OSX would help me deal with that.


The dock displays black arrows below any application icon which is currently running. It's visible at all times and you can clearly see which applications are running and which aren't.

I won't deny that there's a certain level of ineptitude that no OS could ever hope to overcome, but from my experience, OSX is by far the closest.

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I don't agree with the notion that when you're buying a Mac you're paying more because you're always buying better quality. While it may be true depending on the product, I don't think it's always accurate.


Every Mac I've purchased in the last 7 years is still running and is also running the latest version of OSX because it's backwards compatible with all of the hardware, even 3 generations old. They're not gaming rigs, but they perform their basic functions just fine without ever needing maintenance or repair.

If seven years of reliable functionality, backwards compatibility, hardware stability and tons of use isn't the very epitome of quality, what is?

What product with moving parts lasts 7 years and is still supported by the company who built it after all that time?

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But compared to the industry average of 6-11% margins, Apple's average margins are closer to 20-25%. Much of the "quality hardware premium" is pocketed cash. That's their model, that's how they like it. Margins over volume. If someone wants to say the extra cost is for peace of mind or value as it relates to the iLife software, lack of malware, or even hardware style, etc. then that's cool. But hardware quality, in general, doesn't always fly. Even IF they incorporate better quality stuff, they're still pocketing more for it.


They have to make up for R&D somehow.

Why do you think $50,000 can't buy a virus for OSX? That kind of security didn't come from just anywhere: it came from from paying some of the best programmers in the world to wrack their brains ensuring that there were no holes into OSX.

When they don't sell the volume of regular PCs, yet they likely incur far more in R&D costs, they have to make up the difference somehow, and like I said, that difference is more than worth it for the quality of the resulting product.
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Offline BigJim

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2006, 02:12:32 PM »
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Every Mac I've purchased in the last 7 years is still running and is also running the latest version of OSX because it's backwards compatible with all of the hardware, even 3 generations old. They're not gaming rigs, but they perform their basic functions just fine without ever needing maintenance or repair.
s
If seven years of reliable functionality, backwards compatibility, hardware stability and tons of use isn't the very epitome of quality, what is?

What product with moving parts lasts 7 years and is still supported by the company who built it after all that time?


I didn't say Macs weren't quality hardware. I can likewise say every PC I've had (or built) has so far has stood the test of time also. Only I retire them before they die since I upgrade every few years, and hand them off to a friend/relative. The oldest one that's still in use is my grandparents Pentium 2-233 from 98 or 99. We can exchange anecdotal evidence, but it's pointless. A decent lifetime can be managed as long as weak, timebomb hardware is avoided.

Mac motherboards come from Asus or Intel. CPUs come from Intel. GPUs come from nVidia, ATI or Intel. Hard drives come from Segate, WD, Maxtor, Hitachi, Samsung or Fujitsu. The essential insides are virtually identical. The failure rate of hard drives are a wash among all brands. And there is no "this Mac ATI x1600 is better than the PC one." It's the same stuff from the same vendors. There is very little that is particularly exceptional inside the Mac that can't be found in a typical PC. The only things to be cautious of are questionable RAM, motherboard, and power supply sources. Of which the "good ones" don't warrant much of a premium price over even the so-so ones, especially in volume sales.

Quote

They have to make up for R&D somehow.

Why do you think $50,000 can't buy a virus for OSX? That kind of security didn't come from just anywhere: it came from from paying some of the best programmers in the world to wrack their brains ensuring that there were no holes into OSX.

When they don't sell the volume of regular PCs, yet they likely incur far more in R&D costs, they have to make up the difference somehow, and like I said, that difference is more than worth it for the quality of the resulting product.


You don't need to be defensive. I'm aware of how margin is re-invested in companies. I'm also aware of OSX's quality. I use it frequently. But it's software. It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of hardware coming off the assembly line. Like I said, if someone wants to associate the extra cost with better peace of mind from the OS, iLife software, enclosure style, or whatever, that's all well and good. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that the premium pays for hardware that's somehow better than PCs, when it's mostly the same stuff.  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2006, 07:21:45 AM »
No, you're just preemptively attacking his problems so he has nothing to whine about via anti-virus and spyware utils.

And wait until the next unknown virus rolls around: he'll be whining plenty.


Neither of those found anything for years. I could go without them but I prefer having the option to scan immediately if I think there might be a problem. There have been plenty of "unknown" viruses over those years. Haven't been hit by one. As I said, firewall and some smarts and they won't even reach you.

OSX's primary user friendly feature is the "dock", which is a bar which you can place on the left, right or bottom of the screen which contains all of the applications you use on a regular basis and you can simply click the one you want. The dock can be scaled to any size, can be told to hide when not needed or can be magnified when you mouse over it, making the icon larger. It also always displays the name of the application when you mouse over it regardless of settings.

I agree, that is a great feature, I use it extensively.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2006, 07:28:36 AM »
Start Butt.on FTW

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2006, 07:56:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: BigJim
You don't need to be defensive. I'm aware of how margin is re-invested in companies. I'm also aware of OSX's quality. I use it frequently. But it's software. It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of hardware coming off the assembly line. Like I said, if someone wants to associate the extra cost with better peace of mind from the OS, iLife software, enclosure style, or whatever, that's all well and good. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that the premium pays for hardware that's somehow better than PCs, when it's mostly the same stuff.


Sorry if I sounded defensive: I didn't mean to do so.

However, you answered your own question: you said yourself that, in order for Apple to make enough money on the sale of software, they'd need to sell 60,000,000 units of OSX or so every year.

The mainstay of their R&D goes into their software, and yet it's Apple's HARDWARE which nets them the most money, the money they spend on improving the software. Basically, that cash has to come from somewhere and you yourself said it ain't the software which is bringing it in.

Apple's basically backwards like that: they make money on hardware to ensure that their OS stays top-notch and near-free (you can use one OSX installer disc on as many Macs as you can find, no CD keys or registration required).

Quote

Neither of those found anything for years. I could go without them but I prefer having the option to scan immediately if I think there might be a problem. There have been plenty of "unknown" viruses over those years. Haven't been hit by one. As I said, firewall and some smarts and they won't even reach you.


IMHO, the computer should be smart enough on its own that you don't need to take extra steps to protect it. I have Macs connected to public IP addresses sans firewall via T1 and they've never seen a problem. I've tried the same with Win2K servers and they've been hacked the same goddamn day.

Quote

I agree, that is a great feature, I use it extensively.


Now you're just being bitter.

But unless those icons actually provide useful information like the the number of new emails or IMs or can be altered to any size, then the Mac dock is still superior.

Plus, for older and less computer adept individuals, when you launch an application, the icon jumps up and down, indicating that it's starting up. In the case of windows, double clicking an icon doesn't tell you anything while the application is loading which can easily confuse people who aren't computer savvy, causing them to open 3-4 instances of the same application.

It's not something you or I would need, but most of this discussion isn't about you or me, it's about the ability of an OS to negate the inexperience of its user.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #94 on: July 19, 2006, 08:14:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I agree, that is a great feature, I use it extensively.

I am now intensely curious about the contents of this mysterious cereals.txt file.  Is it a list of favorite breakfast cereals?  Code for a revenge hit list?  Misspelled record of serial numbers?  The mind boggles.

Quote

Originally posted by: Professional 666
Of all the programs in the world, I use Windows Explorer the most.  It kicks ass.  Therefore, I just set it to a hotkey combo.

But it already is set to a hotkey combo, unless you're talking about something else.  I'm confused.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #95 on: July 19, 2006, 08:58:07 AM »
Well, I've been using
Ctrl+Alt+/ since the Win95 days (pre-Windows Key era?), cuz on all my keyboards it's easy to press with index+middle+ring fingers (works for left- and right-handed people!).

On my laptop, I hit
Ctrl+Alt+Z, cuz it doesn't have a right-Ctrl, and the Windows Key is at some far off place where the Pause-Break key would be, in terms of location
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Offline Syl

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2006, 09:15:23 AM »
this thread makes me lol.  
...

Offline Ceric

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2006, 09:35:07 AM »
I must say from my personal experience I don't like OSX Look and  Feel that much.  Here's why:

1) Dock.  It's a love hat relationship.  If I could have a seperate one that acted more like the windows taskbar then that be great.  I always have multiple apps up and going between them.  I find how the OSX does this to be annoying at times.
2) Maximize.  When I hit Maximize in Safari I want it to fill the screen not just the middle.  It might just be the Widescreen displays though.
3) Menubar not being part of the application.  Sometimes I feel like I'm doing aerobics when I need to do something with the menu and then back to my window, menu, window menu window feel the burn.
4) I really don't like when I say for the OSX to "Open With" that it doesn't let me choice any program.  I had a disc image that I was trying to load into Virtual PC I ended having to rename its extension to trick OSX into letting me open it with VPC.
5)  Shortcut keys.  This is a pet peeve for me on OSX.  Apple's reason for a long time for not having a second mouse button was the more people kept with the keyboard the better.  So  expected shortcuts out the wah-zoo when I actually get to regularly use OSX I find that the OS is devoid of shortcut keys.  Also who in there right mind decided that enter would be rename and Apple+O would be to open you file?

Just my rant on the subject.  I have much of the same opinion on OSX as I do on Windows Mobile 5.  Love the Background parts of it but disagree with/hate the front-end.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2006, 09:57:51 PM »
But unless those icons actually provide useful information like the the number of new emails or IMs or can be altered to any size, then the Mac dock is still superior.

The icons have two sizes (because Windows only requires apps to include two icon sizes) that can be chosen. You can use third party software with larger icons but quickstart should be sufficient for most purposes. These bars are simply depictions of folder contents (I could set one to a harddrive and navigate the drive from there). Some of the links go into folders I commonly use.

You can have dynamic display of stuff in the system tray which can contain application links as well (TweakUI). AFAIK no mail app bothers with putting much info there.

IMHO, the computer should be smart enough on its own that you don't need to take extra steps to protect it. I have Macs connected to public IP addresses sans firewall via T1 and they've never seen a problem. I've tried the same with Win2K servers and they've been hacked the same goddamn day.

Do what you want to do. I'm not saying Windows is perfect but it's not as bad as people make it out to be either. Most likely those Macs have an included firewall (these days all OSes come with one, including WinXP) because whatever happens you just don't want to connect to the web without a firewall. Even if you are 100% sure that your OS is without bugs you don't do that.

I am now intensely curious about the contents of this mysterious cereals.txt file. Is it a list of favorite breakfast cereals? Code for a revenge hit list? Misspelled record of serial numbers? The mind boggles.

List of serials since I take my games to LAN in a cd bag instead of the original cases (saves a LOT of room especially with those DVD cases used nowadays) and it's likely that I don't have the paper with the CDkey with me should anything happen (basic rule of LAN: Be prepared for ANYTHING) or should I need to spawn a few installs for multiplayer (these days you need cracks for that since I don't think we can find any game every participant owns). These days the latter case happens much more, I wasn't the guy who drew the arse card* (theory of LANs: One guy always has the arse card, i.e. his computer will refuse to work) for years.

*= Literal teranslation of our colloquial term for that. "Arschkarte gezogen"

Offline 18 Days

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RE:My Mac is a better PC than my PC...
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2006, 04:47:04 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
I must say from my personal experience I don't like OSX Look and  Feel that much.  Here's why:

1) Dock.  It's a love hat relationship.  If I could have a seperate one that acted more like the windows taskbar then that be great.  I always have multiple apps up and going between them.  I find how the OSX does this to be annoying at times.
2) Maximize.  When I hit Maximize in Safari I want it to fill the screen not just the middle.  It might just be the Widescreen displays though.
3) Menubar not being part of the application.  Sometimes I feel like I'm doing aerobics when I need to do something with the menu and then back to my window, menu, window menu window feel the burn.
4) I really don't like when I say for the OSX to "Open With" that it doesn't let me choice any program.  I had a disc image that I was trying to load into Virtual PC I ended having to rename its extension to trick OSX into letting me open it with VPC.
5)  Shortcut keys.  This is a pet peeve for me on OSX.  Apple's reason for a long time for not having a second mouse button was the more people kept with the keyboard the better.  So  expected shortcuts out the wah-zoo when I actually get to regularly use OSX I find that the OS is devoid of shortcut keys.  Also who in there right mind decided that enter would be rename and Apple+O would be to open you file?

Just my rant on the subject.  I have much of the same opinion on OSX as I do on Windows Mobile 5.  Love the Background parts of it but disagree with/hate the front-end.


1. I find it more logical that apps in teh dock remain in teh same postion whethor they are open or closed. I throw all my frequent apps to the same side next to each other anyway.
2. Yeah this can be annoying. Try to think of the green button as a window "adjust" key rather than a maximise one. It's more a relic from earlier systems where it was better to have a button that would automativally adjust the window to the smallest possible size while still displaying everything.
3. Ten pixels is pretty difficult to cross, sometimes I try and move my mouse this far but die of exaustion halfway.
4. Did you ever try right clicking? or drag and drop? OSX has this and you can set default apps too.
5.What is Apple+O meant to be? I can't think of any other function beginning with O.
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