Topic: "Oblivion" gets 4 1/2 yawns on a scale of 5

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Well, I'd hate to see how the non-hard drive version plays like...

[capamerica]

I was thinking the same thing while I was playing it.

[denjet78]

Can't we all just agree than Western RPGs suck?... Well, I have to admit that Japanese RPGs suck too but let's just get back to my irational hatred of Western RPGs.

First off, the art direction sucks, in all of them, period. I tried getting into them. I played a little Baulders Gate, Icewind Dale, a couple others that I can't remember the names of because I just don't care. And the art in all of them just sucked... How can anyone like a game that just looks so... so UGLY!

Second, two many options. Way, WAY too many options. Why am I spending an hour-and-a-half SETTING UP my game? Am I going to get to play any time soon? I have to choose my charaters - What species are they going to be? Male or female? I get to pick a job class? HOW MANY ARE THERE? Now if I pick a human male and make him this, when he levels up enough he can become this but a female human gets these options instead? Wait, what does the flying monkey turn into after level 57 if he's got this job? ARGH! Oh, and now I have to pick my characters stats too? And I can customize what they look like but in the end they're all fugly anyway? Now where in the manual does it say how many saving throws I get? Page 4, 938? Or was that page 3,675? Why doesn't this damn thing have an index?

Third, the nerds who invented Dungeons & Dragons should be shot, and along with them all of their family, friends, aquaintances, people who saw them on the bus, just anyone who knows they exist at all.

Fourth, they tend to make no sense, and they make no qualms about that. So I build my characters (and I have no idea what I did to them anyway) and then I'm dropped off at what appears to be some random location, maybe given a little bit of the back story, and then told to go on my way. On my way where? Just... wander around until I find something? Well there's a cave and... Oh wait, I'm dead now. What happened? I didn't see any rats! Let's try this again. I'm not going into that cave this time though. Instead I go into town and the first person I talk to kills me. Why? What the HELL did I DO? I even pressed the attack button this time but nothing happened! Oh, I have to equip my weapons before they work? Okay... And just where would I find said weapons?  And would someone just kill that damn monkey already? If he buzzes me one more time I SWEAR to god...

Fifth, now take all that crap online and add all the other insanity that goes with that including PKers. 'Nuff said.

Sixth, I think I'm going to run downstairs and get a soda. This whole list thing has made me kind of parched if you know what I mean.

Seventh, I don't really need a seventh do I? How about just: "I HATE WES-TERN R-P-GS!"

THEY SUCK!

THEY SUCK!

THEY SUCK!

And it's too late to try and change my opinnion. Because of some bad experiencs, some REALLY bad experiences, all Western RPGs suck in my mind and it's going to take a while before I'm willing to give up on that prejudice and give them another try. Maybe when they come out with one that isn't set in Middle Earth or set in the Middle Ages or whatever else crappy place universe that D&D style games are set it. It's the same reason why I can't stand FPS games. They're either all set in the distant future or in WWII. People, a little originality wouldn't kill you... Would it? I mean I'm asking because I don't know. It's only polite. They might be alergic to it or something seeing as how they seem to avoid it like the BLACK PLAGUE.

I guess I should end this huh? It's like almost 3am and I have to be up by 8. I should really get some sleep...

*ahem*...

WILL YOU BE MY FRIEND?

[Kairon]

I will be your friend.

I too dislike Western RPGs.

Westerners should just completely shift over to MMORPGs and revive the dead "adventure" game genre, those are really what Western RPGs are even though they lie to themselves otherwise.

The Elder Scrolls is basically an MMORPG, or is it the other way around? And any puzzle mechanics or gameplay mechanics in Western single-player RPGs can be much better done in adventure games.

It's not that I don't appreciate what you're doing Bethesda, and others. It's just that I think you're altogether horribly misguided.

... Except for Planescape: Torment... I haven't played that, but from what I hear it actually IS something worth investigating as opposed to all these D&D knock-offs.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[wandering]

I like DnD. For the whole role-playing, playing with other people, aspect.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Just because you don't like RPGs doesn't mean they all suck.

[Bill Aurion]

"Westerners should just completely shift over to MMORPGs"

What is WRONG with you?  More MMORPGs is NOT a good thing...

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Just because you don't like RPGs doesn't mean they all suck.

Who said I hate RPGs? I LOVE RPGs! It's my favorite genre. Has been ever since I played the original FF on my NES about... Wow, it's been over 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're not paying attention.

I hate RPGs NOW. I still love my old school games.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78

Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Just because you don't like RPGs doesn't mean they all suck.

Who said I hate RPGs? I LOVE RPGs! It's my favorite genre. Has been ever since I played the original FF on my NES about... Wow, it's been over 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're not paying attention.

I hate RPGs NOW. I still love my old school games.

Ok, so you hate Western RPGs with a flaming passion, but like the Japanese style, correct? Heh, exact opposite of me. I love thw Western style but can't stand the turn-based systems. To each his own, I guess.

And to be honest, I HATE MMOs. It's hardly a community, everyone's just running arnound solo and absolutly no one seems to roleplay at all, even on RolePlay servers! It's all "wheres teh phat lewt?!?" "How I mine 4 fish?" "Spare change 4 a noob?!?". Gimme TES anyday.

[Frozen Atlantic]

Morrowind was cool, especially when you added some hawt modz.

I'll upgrade my PC, fix the character models, and let er rip. Fun times. What's to complain about?

EDIT: I don't mean hawt like... nekkid fairies or something. Hawt like good.

Yeah.

[Syl]

I hated morrowind, i absolutely loved oblivion.

120 hours in, finished most of the main quests, enjoyed almost every bit of it.  The game's combat is a bit lacking (of course), but it does get incredibly difficult once you reach higher levels.  I played as a battle mage conjurer for the most part.  Summoned by helper, used him to tank and then whacked away with my sword and spells till the enemies died.  There were many instances where tactics played an absolutely vital role in my surviving.  

The ending to the mains story was excellent, but the Dark Brotherhood storyline was the best (with some of the best writing i've ever seen in a game).  The final Thieves Guild mission is something that needs to be experienced.  Even though I was horrible at sneak.

And for everyone who complains about the graphics, here are some screenshots: (Taken with my computer - the jaggies don't look that bad in game, but the jpeg compression amplifies them.)  My computer isn't "top of the line" it's closer to mid-range now, and i was easily pulling 25FPS outside and 60fps inside, with the loading times almost never existing.  (Of course, i had a few mods that removed the annoying "loading" messages so it was seamless.)  Of course, my harddrive is an absolute beast (WD Raptor 74gig), so my complete lack of load times (except for the few seconds entering a city) is something that won't be exactly the same for everyone.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion18.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion13.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion3.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion1.jpg

Picture 17 is a (very old) picture of my character.  If you're wondering why he's so damn ugly - it's cause I'm a vampire, stage 2 in that picture I believe.  (I love how vampirism was added to the gameplay, it was done incredibly well.)  

The game is absolutely beautiful and I never really found the character models distracting.  I thought they were very well done - in the entire game i never came across 2 people who looked the same.  (With the exception of the twins).  Even the non-human races managed to have individual characters that were unique.  The voice acting was a bit too similar all around, but considering how many lines they gave voice acting too - it's rather incredible.

The game didn't interest me at first till i left the sewers and started to randomly explore the countryside, by about hour 3 or 4 i was hooked and didn't stop playing for an entire month.  After finishing the dark brotherhood the new game vibe wore off and i started playing it less and less till i finished the main storyline (and did most of the sidequests - excellent as they are) and eventually moved onto other things.  Still, oblivion is damn good.

To those complaining about loading on the 360:
play the game a few times and the loading will almost entirely dissapear.  The game is loading things to harddrive for the first few sessions, once it's done cacheing the majority of the game, the loading is far faster.

Of course, i'd highly, highly reccomend the PC version instead.  Better controls, more customizable, far, far more mods (mmm... Obscuros Oblivion Overhaul....) and just all around better.  Of course, i'm the type of guy that would essentially prefer the PC vrsion of *any* game, unless the porting was horrible.  

[KnowsNothing]

The thing is, while Oblivion certainly looks pretty, it lacks imagination.  Everything looks so boring to me.  That's why, even with lower rez textures and less polygons and less advanced lighting, I'd MUCh rather look at a game like Twilight Princess because it looks like imagination and LOVE was put into everything.  With a game like Zelda it feels like the developers had fun creating the game world, with Oblivion is feels like the employees just wanted to churn everything out just so they could get paid.  It's all so bland and generic.

[Syl]

Oblivion really isn't that bland and generic though, there are very distinct architectural styles for every single town, each and every dungeon - although usually reusing the same textures- are handcrafted and many of htem even have small stories attached.  Each and every one of the thousands of interiors were all designed personally, every single book in the game can actually be read.  (Some of them are very entertaining).  Yes, i'd venture to say that some of the househould interiors and maybe even a few of the dungeons were uninspired, but comparing them to a zelda game that isn't even released yet is rather an insult.

The game is absolutely beautiful, and considering how much stuff is in the game, it's amazing that every single thing in it is handcracted.  To my knowledge, only the oblivion gates are random dungeons - and even then, the "Random" part is that it chooses a particular oblivion gate realm from a huge list - so it is still handcrafted, but you just don't know which one you're going to get.

I'm not entirely sure what about it looks boring?  Please explain, in any of those pictures i just posted, what about them is lacking "imagination and love!" The attention to detail in Oblivion is absolutely mindboggling.  Which is the exact opposite of what you stated.  It is  *very* far from "bland and generic" aside from perhaps, enemy types and race stereotypes.  (Even though the enemy types are generic, the models are very far from it).  They are keeping in line with Elder Scrolls Arena - which is a 15 year old game now.  

[SixthAngel]

I feel the same way as KnowsNothing.  I also felt that way about Morrowind.  I liked the game but found it uninspiring.

While everything in Oblivion is technically pretty it is artistically ugly.  The enemies (and character models) are detailed but they are so generic and could really use something to make them memorable.  As an example I will use Warcraft.  Orcs and humans are fantasy fodder yet all of these character designs are fresh and unmistakably Blizzard.  Bethesda doesn't and shouldn't need to go the same way with their designs but they need to do something to make things interesting.  Designs of many things just seem dull and unimaginative now.

[Syl]

Oblivion, for me, is striving for Realism.  In it's pursuit of realism, certain artistic limitations had to be adhered too.  I can actually mention many favorite characters (espicially from the Dark Brotherhood quest), but the lack of everything "dripping in style" (ala WoW) is actually something that made the game much more immersive for me.

The main limitations come from the game itself, each and every single piece of equipment or item you see in the game can be manipulated.  Any and all clothing, armor, weapons, etc. that enemies have - you can pick up and use.  While many of the enemies come from generic backgrounds - they have a far more "classical" look to them.  As i said, this actually enhanced the immersion for me.  When striving for realism, you must give realistic attributes to things, you can't go on wildly divergent style.  All of the towns, buildings, random locations and flora and fauna was absolutely amazingly well done.  The wilderness is just wonderful to walk around in.  I spent the majority of my game running around the wilderness picking flowers and such.  Yes, certain things could be improved upon - but it's like that with any game.

Yet again, the game has a legacy to keep up with.  It's the 4th game in a series that is built upon realism and enemy styles from the late 80's/early 90's.  This is the style that the game kept up with, it's the style the game does very well.  Yes, the game does approach uncanny valley at times, but with a few tweaks (mainly involving stopping that horrendous ultra-close-up zoom during talking) i've really liked it.  It may be difficult to make someone "pretty" in oblivion, but it is very much the same way in real life, these people live a hard life and really have no reason to look like beauty queens.  Yet again, it's part of the problem when Realism is the goal.  

What the game "lacks" in art - it completely makes up for in Writing and quests.  The quests are the meat and bones of the game, and many of the quests are some of the best i've ever came across.  Sure they almost all rely on scripted events and specific actions, but they are all made so incredibly enjoyable.  They actually feel plausible, real quests with a real goal - even the (extremely, extremely few) "Find X amount of this, or Kill X amount of that" manage to make sense because of how the writing backs it up.  There are some sick and twisted things in oblivion if you dig enough to find them.  (Part of the reason i wonder why the hell the game got away with a "T" to begin with - although that's a different argument)

Of course, morrowind to me is an entirely different beast to me, the game world was so barren that i really could not stand the damn game.  (Not to mention that many parts of the game were horribly broken.)  

[Syl]

double post, oops.  

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
I feel the same way as KnowsNothing.  I also felt that way about Morrowind.  I liked the game but found it uninspiring.

While everything in Oblivion is technically pretty it is artistically ugly.  The enemies (and character models) are detailed but they are so generic and could really use something to make them memorable.  As an example I will use Warcraft.  Orcs and humans are fantasy fodder yet all of these character designs are fresh and unmistakably Blizzard.  Bethesda doesn't and shouldn't need to go the same way with their designs but they need to do something to make things interesting.  Designs of many things just seem dull and unimaginative now.

Oh, you mean Blizzard, as in the company that applied to make an RTS based on the Warhammer licence, was turned down and created WarCraft, a title laughably similar yet just far enough away to avoid a lawsuit? Sorry, I geat really angry when I hear people (unknowingly, of course) praise Blizzard for ripping off Games Workshop. And I'm tired. I'll fix up this rant tomorrow.

EDIT: Here comes the fixing up. Just take a peek at the Orcs in Warhammer (Clicky link). Now compare Blizzard's orcs. Both share a heavily disporportionate lower jaw, a heavily barbaric appearence and, most importantly, were originally similar in character. Orcs in WarCraft were originally controlled by something (forgive me here, I'm not 100% sure), and Orcs in Warhammer are brutal but not aligned with evil. They kill both Ummies an' dem Chaos boyz (soory, had to add in the Orc voice). Both are dangerous but not truly evil. No other Orcs share that. LotR Orcs are purely evil destroyed humans, and Bethesdas Orcs are just another race, as civilized as any other.

There's many more similarities, such as that both elves are afraid of using magic. Where else have you heard of magic being dangerous? In Warhammer, magic is dangerous because it calls upon the power of the Chaos Gods, and only mortals with incredubly strong wills can use it without being corrupted. In WarCraft, dark elves don't like to use magic for fear of it brining back the Burning Legion.

I won't even get started on StarCraft ripping off Warhammer 40k. There's so much there. Protoss are COMPLETE ripoffs of Eldar. Heck, their psychic powers even share names. Terran marine armor looks so much like Space Marine armor (Pic)
it's not funny. And don't get me started on Zergs and Tyranids. Both are controlled by a single leader (be it Hive Mind or Overmind) and look almost the same(Take a look).

Really, all Blizzard does is steal ideas from Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and remove the grimness.

*NOTE: This is not intended to insult anyone (except Blizzard), rather it is meant to inform.*

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Oh, you mean Blizzard, as in the company that applied to make an RTS based on the Warhammer licence, was turned down and created WarCraft, a title laughably similar yet just far enough away to avoid a lawsuit? Soory, I geat really angry when I hear people (unknowingly, of course) praise Blizzard for ripping off Games Workshop. And I'm tired. I'll fix up this rant tomorrow.

Is that true???

If so, I had no idea this was the case...

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Yeah, that's the sad thing. So many people don't realise it. Most people take a look at Warhammer and think it rips of Blizzard.

Fleshing out my rant in a second...

[Kairon]

Well, in Blizz's defense, I feel that they've fleshed out and delineated their own lore significantly enough that I no longer feel like WarCraft Orcs are similar to WarHammer Orks. Thrall is just that cool.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[SixthAngel]

I said that Oblivion needs its own style not take Blizzards "dripping" style.  They are going for realism, I know.  That in no way negates the use of style, especially when the characters are obviously not real (the graphics are good but the uncanny valley? please).  Plenty of other games that go for realism add a specific style.  Making someon pretty should be easy with all that hardware too.  Games in the past managed to do it and they had far less to work with.  This is one reason I think Oblivion is so mod friendly like Morrowind.  It's general lack of a specific style and design means that it is easy to design new items and objects that actually look like they belong in the world.  I liked Morrowind and I am positive I would like this game if I had it but this is a weak point.  Perhaps making the world huge caused sacrifices in the amount of time they could design enemies and characters.

I didn't praise Blizzard in my orignal post just commented on their style but I'll take a crack at defending them.

Blizzards interest in the Warhammer franchise obviously means that they liked the fantasy setting so their are similarities.  Many of your points are simply fantasy fodder.  Orcs with big lower jaws and barbaric appearances are the classic orc because since LOTR they have been barbaric.  A big lower jaw makes a character look brutish.  In the original Warcraft the orcs were the badguys who followed the demons but the story has changed recently since they became good in 3.  Being afraid of magic is another ripoff from LOTR where everyone is afraid of the magic ring.  Warhammer just seems more of ripoff because of the corrupting thing.  Starcraft I can't comment on because I never played it much but I always thought the Zerg were ripoffs of the aliens from Alien.  40k's aliens seem to be too.

Warcraft has similarities to Warhammer but a different story and game was made using classic fantasy characters.  It borrows elements from the many fantasy works that came before it just as Warhammer does. and each sequal fleshes out the world even more.  Every fantasy tale rips of LOTR but people don't run around saying "Warhammer sucks."  Since they also made Diablo I assume they have a general love for fantasy.  Finally Blizzard just makes good games.  The games were good and the gameplay was there idea.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

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I said that Oblivion needs its own style not take Blizzards "dripping" style.  They are going for realism, I know.  That in no way negates the use of style, especially when the characters are obviously not real (the graphics are good but the uncanny valley? please).  Plenty of other games that go for realism add a specific style.  Making someon pretty should be easy with all that hardware too.  Games in the past managed to do it and they had far less to work with.  This is one reason I think Oblivion is so mod friendly like Morrowind.  It's general lack of a specific style and design means that it is easy to design new items and objects that actually look like they belong in the world.  I liked Morrowind and I am positive I would like this game if I had it but this is a weak point.  Perhaps making the world huge caused sacrifices in the amount of time they could design enemies and characters.

So, you don't have the game and are just going on what people say? Bah, the faces aren't bad, sure there's the occasional bad one but its almost never something completely unnatural. And as for style, I don't quite see what you mean.

Quote
I didn't praise Blizzard in my orignal post just commented on their style but I'll take a crack at defending them.

Blizzards interest in the Warhammer franchise obviously means that they liked the fantasy setting so their are similarities.  Many of your points are simply fantasy fodder.  Orcs with big lower jaws and barbaric appearances are the classic orc because since LOTR they have been barbaric.  A big lower jaw makes a character look brutish.  In the original Warcraft the orcs were the badguys who followed the demons but the story has changed recently since they became good in 3.  Being afraid of magic is another ripoff from LOTR where everyone is afraid of the magic ring.  Warhammer just seems more of ripoff because of the corrupting thing.  Starcraft I can't comment on because I never played it much but I always thought the Zerg were ripoffs of the aliens from Alien.  40k's aliens seem to be too.

Warcraft has similarities to Warhammer but a different story and game was made using classic fantasy characters.  It borrows elements from the many fantasy works that came before it just as Warhammer does. and each sequal fleshes out the world even more.  Every fantasy tale rips of LOTR but people don't run around saying "Warhammer sucks."  Since they also made Diablo I assume they have a general love for fantasy.  Finally Blizzard just makes good games.  The games were good and the gameplay was there idea.

Everything is based on something else, that's true. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon writing, and found inspiration from many of their anchient myths. But, he didn't copy them. He was inspired by them, but didn't just take them,change the names and context and call it his own. Warhammer di much the same. Orcs are presented as a truly barbaric and brutal race- but not truly evil. The Empire of Man is a highly corrupt and brutal state held only together by the Emporer Karl Franz. Magic is dangerous because it draws on the powers of the Chaos Gods. What other fantasy has such ideas? Sure, they were inspired by other ideas, but they add the grim Warhammer touch to them. And in Arhammer 40k, the tyranids, while clearly based on ALiens, have thewir own touch to them. They don't hatch from eggs laid in people, they instead invade a world and begin to dissolve any biological matter and any minerals they find into a goo to create more tyranids. Blizzard, however, has only recently begun to change their stories to be different. Sure, by now WarCraft has a unique storyline, but it still was originally a ripoff of Warhammer.

Sure they make good games, I agree. But the style is still from Warhammer.

[wandering]

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There's no point to photo realism when everyone and everything in the game is FUGLY.

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I don't know how long I spent trying to create a non-ugly character before I just gave up and went with a non-human.

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And I can customize what they look like but in the end they're all fugly anyway?

My character isn't ugly!

 

[Infernal Monkey]

Thanks for letting us know two years later.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: wandering
My character isn't ugly!

Lies.