Topic: What makes Zelda Zelda?

[Ian Sane]

I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see

Well then they f*cking blew it!  The overworld was largely ripped right from Ocarina of Time.  Yeah it was technically different but to me discovering the world and filling in the map is a big part of what I like about Zelda.  With TP is was like "what's over here?  Oh it's Death Mountain.  Oh it's Karkariko Village.  Oh it's Zora's Domain."  Like yeah it's Hyrule but Hyrule in the NES games and in LttP and in OoT don't feel exactly the same.  They share a few common areas and often have some new ones.  And often if it's an existing area they change it up.  Death Mountain is in every Hyrule-themed game but the Gorons were brand new in OoT so it wasn't like just a rehash of the other Zeldas.  OoT also totally redesigned the Zoras.  But with TP it was like they didn't want to deviate too far from the Hyrule established in OoT.  I think as long as there are a few common locations (obviously some sort of forest, Hyrule Castle, and Death Mountain are givens) they should feel the freedom to cut loose.  They did do that in Wind Waker and I loved it aside from the fact that everything was big blue ocean of nothing.  They also did that with Minish Cap.  That is also in Hyrule but it wasn't like a slightly retooled LttP map.

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

[Maverick]

I actually would have been much much happier if they would have just flat out remade OOT.  I'm still wanting that.  Exactly the same game just with updated graphics.  If I ever win the lottery, I'll use the winnings to bribe Nintendo into doing it just for me (not that my money would mean anything to them nowadays).

Not that I wasn't happy with TP, though.  Just to be clear.

[DAaaMan64]

I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see

Well then they f*cking blew it!  The overworld was largely ripped right from Ocarina of Time.  Yeah it was technically different but to me discovering the world and filling in the map is a big part of what I like about Zelda.  With TP is was like "what's over here?  Oh it's Death Mountain.  Oh it's Karkariko Village.  Oh it's Zora's Domain."  Like yeah it's Hyrule but Hyrule in the NES games and in LttP and in OoT don't feel exactly the same.  They share a few common areas and often have some new ones.  And often if it's an existing area they change it up.  Death Mountain is in every Hyrule-themed game but the Gorons were brand new in OoT so it wasn't like just a rehash of the other Zeldas.  OoT also totally redesigned the Zoras.  But with TP it was like they didn't want to deviate too far from the Hyrule established in OoT.  I think as long as there are a few common locations (obviously some sort of forest, Hyrule Castle, and Death Mountain are givens) they should feel the freedom to cut loose.  They did do that in Wind Waker and I loved it aside from the fact that everything was big blue ocean of nothing.  They also did that with Minish Cap.  That is also in Hyrule but it wasn't like a slightly retooled LttP map.

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

QFT, may Ian be praised!

[Svevan]

I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons.

Actually, could you be more specific on this?  (Having not played it yet and all...)  Isn't this what the Zelda series does anyway?  It maintains "Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons" (because it's Zelda, obviously), and the main focus is on the changes in story and environment...On top of that you have new gameplay mechanics added through new tools for Link to pillage and use...

In Okami, there are a few dungeons, but they are not "goals" by any means. There is a series of mysteries in the plot (similar to the first half of Twilight Princess) but the goal you must accomplish is sometimes just go to a town and talk to a bunch of people, or do some random task in a town you've already been to. It's not nearly as "rigid" as the dungeon-hopping in Zelda, where the game is clearly 8 dungeons strung together. Again, I want to offer the first half of Twilight Princess as the antithesis of the second half. In between each of the first three dungeons were some amazing things to do, like the warthog battles and such. The game felt alive, even though there were dungeons. As soon as I got wolf form and the game told me I had X number of dungeons to go, it was all over. The stuff in between became optional.

In Okami, the lead character Amaterasu does gain "new abilities" with which to fight a few bosses, but sometimes these new abilities help her with other functions of gameplay and are much more important to progressing through the world than they are to fighting. The fighting system is more RPG-like, where you must whittle your opponent down with A LOT of attacks, rather than the puzzle-style bosses of Zelda.

In Okami, the plot drives the action. The overworld is not a circle with dungeons peppered on it, but a connected series of environments, forests and lakes and beaches and deserts and hills, in what honestly feels like the old 2-D Zeldas made 3-D. When it comes to dungeons, Okami could care less. It's much more about the unfolding story being revealed in cities, in forests, in conversations, and yes, in dungeons too. It's just different in a way that I love.

[Kairon]

Yeah, I also have to agree with Ian's post. TP DID do some new things that could've really given the game a real sense of self, but they weren't pushed as far as I think they could've been pushed, like the caves that Link could explore. THOSE were beautiful... but they were few, linear, and pretty pointless. Otherwise, the game felt like a jumble of things they wanted, but didn't really know how to piece together.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Yeah, I also have to agree with Ian's post. PH DID do some new things that could've really given the game a real sense of self, but they weren't pushed as far as I think they could've been pushed, like the caves that Link could explore. THOSE were beautiful... but they were few, linear, and pretty pointless. Otherwise, the game felt like a jumble of things they wanted, but didn't really know how to piece together.

There, much better.

[KDR_11k]

So what makes Zelda, eh?

- A fixed world in which the character can move freely (as opposed to one-off levels you can visit once and never see again)
- Within this world there are items/upgrades which enable the passing of certain obstacles as well as often enabling new combat options. These are permanent, once the player obtains them he can use them until the end of the game (or, in rare cases, until a plot event removes them)
- Movement to areas is restricted by obstacles that require items or plot events to pass
- The world contains dungeons which each contain at least one item/upgrade (which is obtained a little less than half-way into the dungeon) and a McGuffin at the end
- To complete the game it is necessary to obtain all McGuffins.
- Within a dungeon there are rooms, many of which have blocked exits which cannot be opened by combat alone but require special actions
- Throughout the world are optional upgrades which are usually more or less well hidden and give non-essential upgrades to the player character (maximum health, ammo, weapon upgrades, ...)

Yes, this makes Four Sword Adventures not a Zelda game, it's more a collection of mini-Zeldas with no worrying about whether you found all secret stuff since after the level ends it's all gone anyway.

For the record, Metroid:
- Only requires items, not plot events to access new areas (with the exception of the final area which usually requires having eliminated certain enemies)
- Does not have dungeons, the game map has multiple sections but these are still interconnected in many ways instead of all connected to only one section.

[Luigi Dude]

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

[DAaaMan64]

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.

[Adrock]

Hardcore Zelda purists like to point out what is and isn't Zelda. If someone had suggested that Link transform into a wolf or be controlled using on a stylus 5 years ago, purists would cry foul and say "that's not Zelda." Truth is, Nintendo decides what is and isn't Zelda. We accept everything about the series because Nintendo tells us what defines a Zelda game. If Nintendo sticks to their guns and Twilight Princess really is the last Zelda of its kind, I think most fans will accept the next iteration of Zelda as a true Zelda game.

Of course, I say all this assuming that Nintendo advances the series in terms of the world they created. For example, Link won't pull out a shotgun or fly a spacecraft. I think Nintendo knows enough about the characters and the world those characters inhabit to create a new installment that may not be so conservatively Zelda but still fits into what fans can accept as a Zelda game.

[IceCold]

I think KDR nailed the technical aspects of a Zelda game. They usually work within those borders, but there's still lots of room for creativity (as Adrock implied).

Also, dungeons are far and away my favourite parts of Zelda games.

[Bill Aurion]

Hardcore Zelda purists like to point out what is and isn't Zelda. If someone had suggested that Link transform into a wolf or be controlled using on a stylus 5 years ago, purists would cry foul and say "that's not Zelda."

I'm the most hardcore Zelda fan here, and I love Wind Waker (especially the open ocean), Twilight Princess (especially the wolf mechanics), and Phantom Hourglass (especially the touch screen use)...Does this make me TOO hardcore to fit within the "hardcore Zelda purist" category? =O

[DAaaMan64]

Ah I love the open sea, I kinda even think Wind Waker was better than TP. But I don't know...

[Adrock]

Bill Aurion wrote:
I'm the most hardcore Zelda fan here, and I love Wind Waker (especially the open ocean), Twilight Princess (especially the wolf mechanics), and Phantom Hourglass (especially the touch screen use)...Does this make me TOO hardcore to fit within the "hardcore Zelda purist" category? =O

Sigh..... My point is that if someone were to suggest something that was never in a Zelda game before, Zelda purists would flame him to oblivion claiming "that's not Zelda" because X or Y was never in a Zelda game before. Zelda fans (notably the purists) accept something as Zelda because Nintendo makes the games a certain way and tells people that it is Zelda. If we could go back to 2004 when the DS first came out and suggest a Zelda game controlled only with a stylus, the Zelda purists would have gone nuts. It was only after fans got their hands on Phantom Hourglass that they accepted it as Zelda and even then, not everyone was happy with it.

You have to take personal preference into consideration, but I still say that, for the most part, Zelda  purists are hesitant to accept changes and additions to the series unless Nintendo puts it into a Zelda game.

[Stogi]

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.

You should play TP again.

[Kairon]

TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.

[GoldenPhoenix]

TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.

TP was no more or no less "disjointed" than any other 3D Zelda game, not to mention disjointed is a completely subjective term. I felt PH was disjointed, but I'm sure you would disagree. We get it, you hate TP, but there are many of us that loved it and that tells me there is something quite redeeming about it.

[Shift Key]

SHEIK IS A WOMAN

[Kairon]

TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.

TP was no more or no less "disjointed" than any other 3D Zelda game, not to mention disjointed is a completely subjective term. I felt PH was disjointed, but I'm sure you would disagree. We get it, you hate TP, but there are many of us that loved it and that tells me there is something quite redeeming about it.

I'll get you for this GP! One of these days! One of these days!

[DAaaMan64]

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.

You should play TP again.

I will do that one day, got any recommendations on why you say that?  It could be incentive for me.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.

[DAaaMan64]

I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.

Nastalgia plays a role, but I remember an explicit feeling I got playing OoT, MM, and to a lesser degree Oracles and WW.

[Kairon]

I've been meaning to replay OoT for a long time now to see if that nostalgia holds up. It'd help to make me notice the points in TP I felt lacking.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.

Nastalgia plays a role, but I remember an explicit feeling I got playing OoT, MM, and to a lesser degree Oracles and WW.

I do too, and it was because of how fresh and new they were (well not MM so much but OOT).

[wandering]

If Nintendo sticks to their guns and Twilight Princess really is the last Zelda of its kind, I think most fans will accept the next iteration of Zelda as a true Zelda game.

Of course, I say all this assuming that Nintendo advances the series in terms of the world they created. For example, Link won't pull out a shotgun or fly a spacecraft.

Why not? Gunpowder exists in the Zelda universe. And, I haven't played Majora's Mask, but doesn't Link travel to a moon in it?