Author Topic: What makes Zelda Zelda?  (Read 27809 times)

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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2008, 02:24:02 PM »
What makes a Zelda game a Zelda game?  The fusion of both the adventure and puzzle genres, with a dash of fighting.

The first, most important thing in a Zelda game is the overworld.  It must be grand, it must be interesting, and it must be a little confusing at first.  You're meant to feel insignificant, lost, and yet hope to see everything and find all the secrets.  You should probably, but not necessarily, be able to see a map of where you've been, but it shouldn't show fine details.

The dungeons should contain the puzzles, clearly.  Whether it's how you clear a room of enemies easily with the terrain given, how you open a door or find a key, or how you use your new item, each room should contain a puzzle.  If it doesn't it's useless and a waste of time.  A boss, itself, can be a puzzle, requiring you to learn what tool to use at what time, based on the boss's movement, the stage's design, and what has been acquired in the dungeon preceding the boss.

To add to the exploration, dungeons in Zelda games should rarely have a necessary order, though there should definitely be an intended order.  If any actual order is given by plot, the dungeon should be the first or last dungeon, or a batch of dungeons should be opened up.  It's also typical for one dungeon to be available after specific tools have been gained, but the entrance into one dungeon should rarely require that a previous dungeon be beaten, unless dungeons are opened in batches.

Four Swords games are not traditional Zelda games, and do not follow traditional "rules" that other Zelda games meet.

Now, when you look at Zelda games, it becomes clear that, IMO, a few games miss the "Zelda" mark, yet are in the series.  For example, in the first game, much of the basic enemy combat is meant only to slow down Link's progression, making the overworld seem a little larger than it is.  Link's Adventure branched far off the typical gameplay, and many hate it for that. Personally, of all the Zelda games  I've either played or witnessed much of, I've found that the The Legend of Zelda and A Link to the Past are the two games that best embody Zelda. 

Yes, I know that many people loved OoT, and it and Majora's Mask are great Zelda titles, but OoT just seems out of place with earlier titles.  For example, as much as Epona has become part of Zelda lore now, rides weren't really present in other Zelda titles.  Ok, sure, there were Pegasus Boots in LttP, you got me.  So why, if you have Epona, would you need the ability to teleport everywhere?  Epona and half of the Ocarina's functions contradict each other, IMO.  Now, I know Epona is used to jump fences, yes, I realize that, However, aside from the initial "Wow!" factor of riding Epona, wouldn't the game have been more fun with it's own item that can get you to the fenced areas that also could have some kind of special effect on enemies, as well?  Then, there's the whole torch thing.  What happened to the fire rod?  The ice rod?  You never gain access to an "anywhere" fire weapon, nor do you gain a tool to put out fires, either.  The combat in several areas can impede your progress, but never feels like a puzzle, but rather, a chore.  And of course, Navi really doesn't help the game.

I can't comment so much on any of the other games, since OoT, I've felt a very disinterested in the series.  From all the impressions, pictures, videos, and everything I've seen from all the games, the dungeons and overworlds feel unimaginative, gray, and much less like an adventure than they should.  OoT's puzzles were a little too simple and bland, so I've feared the same in later games, and I don't want to invest myself in a game that I'll feel is a disappointment.  Maybe I made my mind up too soon, but I feel like I was the only one who didn't feel like OoT had a "Wow!" to any of it, and perhaps it's because any time I touch it, I compare it to LttP with disregard to the 3D-ness that others were shocked at in '98.

Honestly, I just want to be able to explore anywhere I want, see things I can't yet reach, and have an environment that's full of questions and mysteries.  I don't feel like many games in the Zelda series give that feeling, but I'm pretty sure they're supposed to.  Oh, and I want to be puzzled in dungeons.  It doesn't matter how the game looks as long as it meets that criteria.  If it does, it's a Zelda game.  If it doesn't, it's an imitation or something else.  If it's okay being something else, I'm okay with it, like the Fourswords titles, which are co-op action/puzzle hybrids, and intentionally leave out the exploration.  However, I feel like a lot of the newer Zelda titles are missing the grand type of exploration, missing out on why we liked the combat, and are missing the intuitive puzzles that the earlier games did.

I would say that there's a limit to what you can do with simple block puzzles, but the Adventures of Lolo and its sequels prove that idea wrong, so I honestly think that Miyamoto & anyone that wants to be involved in Zelda need to establish the series true identity before they make another one, because with each iteration, the games seem to be losing what makes them Zelda.

Also, alternative worlds, dimensions, and gameplay, like Wolf Link, and things like that have precedence.  LttP had the Dark World and Bunny Link, OoT had Young Link's time and Old Link's time.  Really, I've felt like the purpose of the two worlds is to add an element of exploration.  Like solving a 3D jigsaw puzzle from two separate angles or something.  That's how I've felt, at least.

Edit:  As far as taking Zelda and putting the next game in a new environment, I'm actually all up for it.  I think it would inspire the developers to consider the base gameplay we like about Zelda, and re-establish that much stronger than any 3D Zelda has, since fans would probably need the gameplay more than ever to accept the game.  I would be excited to see something new that can retain the sense of adventure that older titles held.  And no, sailing doesn't have that same sense of Adventure to me.

Offline Shecky

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2008, 04:16:47 PM »
Agreeing with a bulk of what thatguy said initially (up till about the dungeon segment)

Every room doesn't need to be a puzzle or have a surprise and ever inch of the overworld doesn't have to either.  They need to be scattered about to make in indeterministic.  The original LoZ would be a lot different if every screen had something to uncover.

Also, you do have the fire and ice rods in OoT.  They're just called arrows ;)

One of the trends/problems with 3d games these days is that a lot of effort is put into controlling the user environment.  (ie: invisible walls that prevent what otherwise WOULD be traversable if approached from the intended angle).  Developers are striving for a much more controlled environment.

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2008, 04:43:22 PM »
Ehh, I forgot about the arrows.  To me, though, they were still arrows.

You're right, I over-exaggerated about the dungeon rooms, but I stand by what I said about the overworld.  There's something interesting about just about every "screen" in the overworld in LttP.  To me, OoT had a lot less hidden in things.  In LttP, every time I got a new item, I'd want to trek all over the map to see if there was anything new, but it certainly didn't seem the same way in OoT.  That's the feeling I'm trying to express with the map.

Offline wandering

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2008, 06:14:48 PM »
A Zelda game has a world which must be explored, an evil which must be felled, and a child who must grow up. It fills you with awe, and fear, and occasionally makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2008, 07:17:14 PM »
Epona was introduced because the 3d overworlds in OOT were large to give a sense of exploration (and because you could see far so it'd look weird if the field wasn't much larger than a room) but at the same time were empty because the system couldn't handle more and running across that huge field on foot is simply no fun. Earlier Zeldas didn't need that because the part of the overworld that was visible at any time was small enough to allow filling it with all kinds of interesting stuff.

I don't like how the boss battles have turned into item spam since OOT though, makes them really silly and easy at times.

Offline Adrock

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2008, 12:34:01 AM »
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Wandering wrote:
Why not? Gunpowder exists in the Zelda universe. And, I haven't played Majora's Mask, but doesn't Link travel to a moon in it?
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Offline Athrun Zala

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2008, 03:20:04 AM »
A Zelda game has a world which must be explored, an evil which must be felled, and a child who must grow up. It fills you with awe, and fear, and occasionally makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
I agree with this definition.

also, it proves that TP is not a real Zelda.
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Offline Mario

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2008, 04:06:00 AM »
Don't be ridiculous. Mario Party 4 is not a real Zelda, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is. As soon as the next Zelda is released everyone's going to be looking back on TP and saying what an overlooked gem it was.

Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2008, 04:13:39 AM »
Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's. 

All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2008, 04:16:59 AM »
Don't be ridiculous. Mario Party 4 is not a real Zelda, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is. As soon as the next Zelda is released everyone's going to be looking back on TP and saying what an overlooked gem it was.

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Offline Mario

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2008, 05:22:33 AM »
Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's. 

All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.
Bull. There's a lot of subtle imaginative things in the game, for one, when the Twilight world becomes apparent and you're left wondering what happened to all the people, lots of things went through my mind. There's a lot of things in TP that aren't obvious at all, like what most characters are thinking / what they are doing. It's been about a year since i've played it but these things still stick out to me while most things like the dungeons i've forgotten.

Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2008, 05:32:23 AM »
All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.

Christ, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but I have to point out that there's a limit to how wrong one can be...on every level...

Characters, gameplay, bosses, dungeon design, enemies, items, EVERYTHING except possibly the story (defeat Ganondorf, save the world) was unique and imaginative...Unless you can point out where you can play as a wolf, use a ball and chain, use the spinner, fight on horseback, etc, in any other Zelda game...
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Offline stevey

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2008, 05:57:35 AM »
If someone said this a year ago they would be laugh out of the forum, TP is greatest Zelda game of all time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 07:23:58 AM by stevey »
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Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2008, 08:44:57 AM »
I'm sorry, no.  The WORLD wasn't really all that imaginative.  They could have done SO much more.  Could have tried something else.  There was no need to make OoT 2 after Majora's Mask and Wind Waker really set a tempo for creating new worlds with interesting facets.

If ANYONE says this isn't the least imaginiative Nintendo Zelda made since Link to the Past they're lying or just wearing rose collored glasses.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2008, 09:35:51 AM »
I'm sorry, no.  The WORLD wasn't really all that imaginative.  They could have done SO much more.  Could have tried something else.  There was no need to make OoT 2 after Majora's Mask and Wind Waker really set a tempo for creating new worlds with interesting facets.

If ANYONE says this isn't the least imaginiative Nintendo Zelda made since Link to the Past they're lying or just wearing rose collored glasses.

Wait Link to the Past wasn't imaginative? Now who is lying there! Link to the Past set the tone for the rest of the series. Whether it be the dungeon set up, alternate settings, establishment of the master sword, intricate puzzles beyond blowing up walls or pushing blocks, more focus on items impacting boss battles (LoZ had it but not to the degree LTTP took it), and one the first attempts at integrating Zelda with a continuous narrative. Not to mention that OOT is an extension of the LTTP template only in 3D, so is that not imaginative? Give me a break.

Funny, I don't recall TP having ANY resemblance to the world in OOT beyond the same name and it taking place in Hyrule. The overworld was completely different while still maintaining a sense of familiarity (which I don't think is a bad thing).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:40:54 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2008, 09:56:21 AM »
The overworld in TP was very, very... empty. Plus, it had a lot of features which weren't implemented or were ultimately pointless. There's never been a hyrule so big... or so empty. I mean, even Windwaker had ways to keep the ocean dynamic, but TP's field are... quite bland.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2008, 10:00:34 AM »
If they weren't bland, you'd bump into everything on your horse, and you'll never get that "Dances with Wolves" feeling when you play the game in your underwear.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2008, 10:00:45 AM »
The overworld in TP was very, very... empty. Plus, it had a lot of features which weren't implemented or were ultimately pointless. There's never been a hyrule so big... or so empty. I mean, even Windwaker had ways to keep the ocean dynamic, but TP's field are... quite bland.

Someone is forgetting OOT Hyrule field. TP's Hyrule field was amazing and I had a ton of fun exploring it. Also which features weren't implemented? I take it you were on the design team to have this knowledge?

This is really funny coming from someone who defended NMH's bland and empty overworld as something great. It makes TP's highly explorable overworld look like the greatest thing that ever was created for gaming (Or maybe it was a parody of something?).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 10:04:19 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2008, 10:17:55 AM »
No, I'm using Link to the Past as the cut-off point for "Modern Zelda".  I'm not saying it isn't imaginative, I just don't want the NES games involved in this discussion.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2008, 11:14:28 AM »
I'm disappinted in the field area because it simply lacked a cohesive character. Not only was there less to discover compared to OoT, but there were many landscape features which were put in that served no purpose whatsoever, extremely shocking for a Nintendo game. The ruins in the big western field(TP orientation), for example, were not hooked into any story or sidequest whatsoever, something I consider a HUGE oversight. The shallow lake and bridge in the southern fields too were placed, but were'nt there for any real purpose.

This is shocking because Nintendo games have always been an example of complete utilization, from getting a bottle under the bridge in LTTP to the multiplicity of holes to fall into in OoT's field. In stark contrast, the caves in TP are few and far between, possibly potent landscape features are left under-utilized, and the scale neccesitates a horse, but doesn't come anywhere close to delivering the grandeur of cresting a hill to see Hyrule Castle town right at sunrise (OoT). Sadly, most of the space of the Hyrule Fields in TP was used onlt yo make the hiding of a handful of golden bugs somewhat more interesting.

But were the developers trying to use TP's overworld as a framing mechanism for the rest of the game? If they were, they were trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Previous Hyrule fields had proved quite adept at framing the world already, so why the big spaces? For scale? I'm sorry, but Zelda should NOT become True Crime L.A. For content? We've already disproven that point above. For Reality? At GDC 2004, Aonouma said that Miyamoto often said that "Zelda is a game that values reality over realism." (More from Aonouma's 2004 GDC speech later)

...For Epona to run through?

In fact, Nintendo's forcing of the issue just went to shoe how shoe-horned the Epona feature was. Nintendo wanted to harken back to OoT, so they forced in a feature to the game, Epona, despite many areas of the game being inaccessible to the horse. Even the complaints that the warp system was so much more useful than Epona goes to show how unnecessary and extraneous and un-Nintendo-like the horse riding gameplay was. Epona is only truly important in two very much cinematic-wannabe set-pieces in the game(chasing King bulbin in the fields, and fighting him on the bridge), scripted occurences which are themselves amazing for forcing the Zelda gameplay away from the illusion of freedom into a trapped corridor of linearity.

It's shocking, because the entire western field is used almost solely for Epona's riding segments, an entire section of dead land, ringed by incongruent chasms,placed specifically for Epona to run through. *sigh* This is exactly the sort of reverse games building process that I didn't expect to see from Nintendo. For TP, they must have decided way back before 2004 that they wanted to see that LOTR-esque horse battle, and worked backwards from there to force that unnaturally into the game. This is in extremely stark contrast to the usual organic quality of Zelda games. It introduces impurities, or Aku, and Zelda is all about handling all these different elements so that the impurities and excesses are kept to a mnimum.

TP , I claim, is a game with an excess of Aku. And it's somewhat sad because the game's director, Aonouma, describes Aku and Zelda so perfectly in this section from his talk at GDC 2004:

Quote
"Even when you're making a game, mixing together different ingredients into one pot produces aku. In games, the impurities are the elements that feel unnatural or out of place. I think that making a good game or being a good chef means doing a good job of removing these impurities. By combining this slow and steady work of removing these impurities and adding the spice is what Mr. Miyamoto calls Zelda reality. Doing a good job of stirring in the occasional fresh ingredient keeps the deliciousness of Zelda and leads us to new innovations with the franchise."
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
TP is rush-job fanservice fluff.  << see, less words required.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2008, 11:58:44 AM »
Quote
What makes a Zelda game a Zelda game?  The fusion of both the adventure and puzzle genres, with a dash of fighting.

Pro said this first, and I completely agree.. Zelda games can be represented by the Triforce of Wisdom (Puzzle solving), Power (combat) and Courage (exploration).

But I completely disagree with his TP trolling. He's obviously exaggerating to elicit a reaction, and has been doing so for a long time. It's quite annoying.

EDIT:

Quote
I can't comment so much on any of the other games, since OoT, I've felt a very disinterested in the series.  From all the impressions, pictures, videos, and everything I've seen from all the games, the dungeons and overworlds feel unimaginative, gray, and much less like an adventure than they should.


Oh yeah? Wind Waker's screenshots and videos looked like that?

Quote
So why, if you have Epona, would you need the ability to teleport everywhere?  Epona and half of the Ocarina's functions contradict each other, IMO.

Well, you could only teleport to certain locations. There was still plenty of on-foot or horseback travel between areas.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:05:24 PM by IceCold »
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Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2008, 12:08:11 PM »
I agree about the hores battles.  I felt like they weren't really done.  Yeah, they were amusing when they happened, but after that there wasn't much to em.

If they wanted mounted combat they should have created an area where getting off your horse was certain doom, where you were threatened, or where you had to stand down an onslaught.  Take "fight on horse" beyond just a few scripted events and the odd enemy encounter, make them real experiences.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2008, 12:19:27 PM »
I'm honestly not satisfied with TP.  My enthusiasm for the game steadily went downhill, as I kept encountering more "empty" objects and flashy filler in the latter half of the game, the nature of which Kairon just articulated.  A final boss with "no" magick, governed by cheap swordplay, narrow-minded strategy, and POOR programming is not fit close off a formula-generation of 3D Zelda games.  A false Princess Zelda boss fight, whose time was spent doing mostly nothing, doesn't help the situation, instilling the idea it was mostly for show, lowering her value in the overall product.  Those are just the obvious tidbits.

Dare I say, the game somehow insults the player's merit.

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:24:15 PM by Professional 666 »
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Offline IceCold

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2008, 12:40:04 PM »
That's better.
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