Author Topic: What makes Zelda Zelda?  (Read 27809 times)

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Offline Svevan

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What makes Zelda Zelda?
« on: February 15, 2008, 03:56:48 AM »
That said, the game IS definitely inspired by Zelda games in general, and I believe the producers even admitted the fact...
It's true, Okami is very inspired by Zelda, but to me it does Zelda a one-up by following its own path and its own plot. There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series. The only Zelda games that are as organic as Okami, in my mind, are Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.

Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:51:02 AM by Svevan »
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Offline Bill Aurion

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 04:10:56 AM »
That said, the game IS definitely inspired by Zelda games in general, and I believe the producers even admitted the fact...
It's true, the game is very inspired by Zelda, but to me it does Zelda a one-up by following its own path and its own plot. There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series. The only Zelda games that are as organic as Okami, in my mind, are Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.

Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

I don't think that's very fair, comparing a long-established series to a single "one-of-a-kind" game...For Zelda, the designers have to make the game different enough to be unique, but at the same time make it similar enough that it's still a Zelda game...Because why even bother calling it Zelda otherwise? (Financial benefits aside, of course...)
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Offline Deguello

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 05:00:33 AM »
Bill's right, Svevan.  The theory of Zelda's "predictability" is quashed if you ever consider that somebody's first game in the series might have been Twilight Princess or Majora's Mask.  The only reason Zelda is "predictable" is because it is a series with a lot of fans and all news items about the next game are disseminated en masse and consumed at a rapid pace.

And the idea that Zelda is "bound" to some kind of rigid plot structure is thrown around a lot but I don't see the evidence supporting it.  There can't even be a claim of Ganon being the bad guy each time, as he's only the bad guy in half the games and less than that if you don't count 4 swords.

"There is no way to predict where the game will go because it is not bound to a rigid "structure" that inexplicably and stupidly defines the Zelda series."

This is an interesting claim, possibly because it shows an unconscious attitude about the "Zelda fatigue."  Please remember that "defining" something is an action that no inanimate object can make.  The comment that the qualities of this definition are "stupid" and "inexplicable" places the weight of these attacks on the DEFINERS.  A rock does not tell a tree it is a tree.  And besides, in the wake of all the Zelda hysteria of Wind Waker not being a Zelda game because it didn't "look like one" and the Metroid hysteria of Metroid Prime "not being a Metroid Game," it'd be natural for Nintendo to throw a few familiar things in there. Hell, Zelda Phantom Hourglass got the "non-game" treatment, it had more than it's "Zelda-ness" to worry about.  You could possibly see how Nintendo wants at least a modi*** of familiar themes and ideas if only to assure overly sensitive gamers that yes, you are playing a game that features Link and is called Zelda.

Besides, you're talking Capcom here.  Don't you think if Okami didn't bomb out on the PS2 they would have Okami 3 exclusive to the 360 in Japan by now?  ;D
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 05:07:04 AM by Deguello »
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Offline Svevan

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 05:23:49 AM »
I don't think that's very fair, comparing a long-established series to a single "one-of-a-kind" game...For Zelda, the designers have to make the game different enough to be unique, but at the same time make it similar enough that it's still a Zelda game...Because why even bother calling it Zelda otherwise? (Financial benefits aside, of course...)

Bill: the real question is what makes Zelda "Zelda." It's a question for a different thread though, and I'd bet we'd disagree on the nitty gritty details. My point has always been that dungeons make up a part of what makes Zelda "Zelda," not the whole.


Deg: first off, don't give me a grammar lesson.

And besides, in the wake of all the Zelda hysteria of Wind Waker not being a Zelda game because it didn't "look like one" and the Metroid hysteria of Metroid Prime "not being a Metroid Game," it'd be natural for Nintendo to throw a few familiar things in there....You could possibly see how Nintendo wants at least a modi*** of familiar themes and ideas if only to assure overly sensitive gamers that yes, you are playing a game that features Link and is called Zelda.

This is the one thing I agree with that you said, and I think it supports my point more than yours. Either way, we agree that when Nintendo changes the formula, the "fans" get upset, while reasonable thinking gamers like you, me, and Bill recognize the value of the changes. This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it, and they could do so MORE than they have. That's all I'm saying.

Okami was fresh while still feeling Zelda-y. Wind Waker and Majora's Mask were too. TP was for about two thirds of its play time, while the other third dragged, in my opinion.
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Offline Deguello

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 06:02:15 AM »
Hey I didn't mean to be a Grammar Nazi, it's just interesting how a choice of words can change the intended meaning of a statement.

Besides, Nintendo's "straying" from the Zelda path never cost it its sales in the marketplace or reviews or even general opinion.  There would always be some oddball like Gamespot's 8.8 for TP our own Review of Phantom Hourglass, but generally, Zelda games are still well-received no matter what they are.

In my opinion, my statement supports my point more than yours, because the "Zelda Hysteria" may not necessarily come from fans to begin with, just like the whole "ZOMG Non-game" stuff.  We are in a brave new games press era, where relative objectivity has been traded for brash side-choosing and open bias, such as evidenced is EGM's two-issue feature on how Endless Ocean is a non-game.  Suddenly new definitions pop up left and right and new categories and it's getting pretty hard to keep track of what a game is and what a game isn't. and what's casual and non-core and tonglime-cardhore and graaah!  Maybe IGN should issue a chart, Terror-Alert style, maybe some kind of color wheel, so we can all keep up to date on the latest definitions.  So, even though Nintendo is clearly not beholden to these hostile press outlets, they do require them to disseminate information.  And because of this, when they use the word "Zelda" they better have a left-handed elf guy in green.

Okami does not have this problem, so it can copy parts of Zelda's formula, and put a wolf in it, set it in Mythological Japan and call it "fresh."

Imagine William Shakespeare's King Lear, and Akira Kurosawa's Ran (that's "Rahn" for those unfamiliar.)   Ran is really nothing more than a Japanese version of King Lear.  No matter how stylistically and "different" it is.. it's still just King Lear in a Shogun outfit.

And as to the unfairness, here is a childhood psychological example.  Imagine being a gifted 7-year-old child (I don't have to imagine Ha-HA!) and getting scolded by a teacher for getting a trigonometry problem wrong.  The imagine having an autistic or retarded kid in the room write his name in his own drool and get praise for the "progress he's made."  While I don't think the differences are that extreme between TP and Okami, there is a certain biasedness towards the new even if all the "new" is nothing more than the old in different clothes.  More was expected of Zelda and much, much less was expected of Okami, and that was reflected in it's reviews and sales.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 07:36:37 PM by Deguello »
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Offline Svevan

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 06:06:43 AM »
You might have a point, but I don't think you've played Okami, and I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons. It is DIFFERENT than Zelda, yet the first thing people say when they play it is "Oh, like Zelda, awesome."

Your points on the redefinition of terms are interesting, worthy of a different thread.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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What makes Zelda
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 06:22:29 AM »
This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it, and they could do so MORE than they have. That's all I'm saying.

I'm actually rather curious as to what you think would "break the formula" in the Zelda series while keeping its core intact...For me, the base Zelda formula rotates around two things: 1) the character Link, with a secondary importance of Zelda, and 2) dungeons focused around using the item treasure found within and using said item to defeat the dungeon boss...If you take away either, the essence of what makes the game "Zelda" is lost...So the designers must build around these two aspects in order to make the game unique, but this generally seems to require changing the environment more-so than the actual gameplay (eg. Wind Waker's mostly ocean overworld, Majora's Mask's time-based managing and hustled exploration, etc...)

Otherwise the game is just Zelda in name only, and no one wants that...The fans want the essence of the game to be similar, and non-fans would be just fine with a completely new IP, no?

(Edit: The only progression I could possibly see is through additional environment manipulation, like a potential return of the Rod of Seasons or something similar...That way you could introduce new puzzle elements while still keeping the core Zelda gameplay...)

I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons.

Actually, could you be more specific on this?  (Having not played it yet and all...)  Isn't this what the Zelda series does anyway?  It maintains "Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons" (because it's Zelda, obviously), and the main focus is on the changes in story and environment...On top of that you have new gameplay mechanics added through new tools for Link to pillage and use...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:31:56 AM by Bill Aurion »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 06:31:37 AM »
Zack & Wiki > Twilight Princess
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Offline stevey

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 06:45:28 AM »
They do

nothing else counts

j/k

All that needed for a Zelda game is
Boy meets Princess/Girl
Boy gets sword
Boy kills and solve puzzles
Boy save Princess/Girl
Boy ***** Princess

nothing else is really needed in a zelda game, everything else is filler.

Quote
This should be enough to prove that there IS a formula and Nintendo IS afraid to steer from it,

What about MM, LA, PH, Tingle rupee land, Tetra based game, and Zelda II. They were very different from Zelda formula proving nintendo does steer away from any formula and all are still Zelda and loved for the most part while WW is hated while nothing is really changed from other Zeldas.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 06:51:42 AM »
What makes Zelda "Zelda" is not it's story or it's characters in particular. This is why the whole Zelda is stale argument always strikes me as stupid. Zelda is about a play style. It is about exploring a huge world and figuring out the importance of each part of that huge world. It is about interacting with characters and learning what they need in order to return their existence to normal. It is about going into a dungeon and solving the puzzles and cleverly dispatching enemies with the variety of tools you are given. Being a part of Zelda, since the very first game, has been about being a part of a world and learning how to master the world around you. You start small and insignificant, and by the end you are the hero, you are the master of the land. That quest to attaining that status within that land is what makes the game so glorious. The game never tricks itself into getting caught up in too much story. It gives you enough to get by and convey the importance of your quest and that's it. The rest of the lore of the land is obtained through adventuring. As the game progresses, you realize your existence is not confined to just a story, you are unbound to do what you like within the confines of the land. If you want to side quest and help people or fish or go to a shooting range, that is your prerogative. Thankfully these tasks are separated from the story giving your existence more meaning within the game.

People who get caught up in the concept of needing a story line are missing the point of Zelda IMO. You aren't playing the game for a story, you are playing it to become a part of Hyrule, to become a hero.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 08:08:14 PM »
Quote
Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

To me Twilight Princess came off as Nintendo overcompensating for Wind Waker backlash.  They tried too hard to make a fan friendly Zelda and as a result it ended up being too by the book.  Though for any new gamers first introduced to Zelda on the Wii it's a great start.  Still Nintendo failed to realize that change wasn't the reason for Wind Waker's backlash but rather the specific nature of the change.  But then I think a lot of companies in any entertainment field have difficulty interpreting fan opinion.  Hell I didn't like Wind Waker as much because of the big blue ocean of nothing and because I didn't like the graphic style.  But maybe that's not a common opinion.  Hell maybe what I don't like about Twilight Princess is precisely what others like.

To me Zelda would be defined by the existance of Link as the main character, having real time interaction with the game world, a mix of puzzles and fighting, and a fair amount of freedom to do things at one's own pace.  And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 08:19:14 PM »
What makes Zelda "Zelda" is not it's story or it's characters in particular.

And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

There is still a lot of mystique that falls back onto the Link character...Take a Mario game for example...You could take Mario Galaxy and replace Mario with, uh, a giant penguin, and the game would FEEL like a Mario game, but WOULDN'T BE a Mario game...Feeling like something and actually BEING something are two different things...Zelda games ARE to some point about a different (usually) young man  being tied to the same string of fate as those that came before him and those that come after him...Replacing Link (and his green-clad self) with someone else would only make a Zelda-ripoff...
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »
For me, the base Zelda formula rotates around two things: 1) the character Link, with a secondary importance of Zelda, and 2) dungeons focused around using the item treasure found within and using said item to defeat the dungeon boss...If you take away either, the essence of what makes the game "Zelda" is lost...

On that second point, A Link to the Past, possibly the game with the most influence on the rest of the series (put another way, the most Zelda-y Zelda), features several boss fights that require nothing but your sword.

Offline Mikintosh

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2008, 10:26:39 PM »
Quote
Not to disparage Twilight Princess, which does some amazing new things too. In my review I pointed out that my biggest complaint with that game was how it fell back to the Zelda formula for about 5 dungeons straight, before you finally get to the Twilight Realm and the game opens up again.

To me Twilight Princess came off as Nintendo overcompensating for Wind Waker backlash.  They tried too hard to make a fan friendly Zelda and as a result it ended up being too by the book.  Though for any new gamers first introduced to Zelda on the Wii it's a great start.  Still Nintendo failed to realize that change wasn't the reason for Wind Waker's backlash but rather the specific nature of the change.  But then I think a lot of companies in any entertainment field have difficulty interpreting fan opinion.  Hell I didn't like Wind Waker as much because of the big blue ocean of nothing and because I didn't like the graphic style.  But maybe that's not a common opinion.  Hell maybe what I don't like about Twilight Princess is precisely what others like.

To me Zelda would be defined by the existance of Link as the main character, having real time interaction with the game world, a mix of puzzles and fighting, and a fair amount of freedom to do things at one's own pace.  And Link's inclusion is largely a technicality as a game that features those other items would still feel like Zelda.

As a huge fan of Ocarina of Time who has never played a lot of the 2D game before but has finished all the 3D ones after it, I thought that Twilight Princess was a welcome return to that kind of "adult" Zelda storytelling and style, though I loved Wind Waker too (tho it took me three years to finish...I get distracted easily). I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see; they wanted to create a lush, epic Zelda game that just happened to be in the style of Ocarina of Time. Yes, the game's structure wasn't as well organized as Ocarina's, but it was comparable to Majora's Mask to me, and that's just fine. I do hope we get a sequel of sorts to it though, as they didn't really delve into the Twilight world's history as much as I would've liked, and the abrupt ending made me want to find out more. Maybe a DS spin-off a la Phantom Hourglass?

I do think Link needs to be the hero of any Zelda game as he is the "link" (ha ha) that connects every other title, and he's never had a sidekick that'd be an appropriate replacement. Though actually, a game featuring the TP design of Zelda with Smash Bros.-esque moves would probably be pretty sweet, if done right.

Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 10:55:30 PM »
On that second point, A Link to the Past, possibly the game with the most influence on the rest of the series (put another way, the most Zelda-y Zelda), features several boss fights that require nothing but your sword.

There are always exceptions to the rule... =)

And even then the series has evolved since to be almost exclusively dungeon item boss battle-focused...

I do think Link needs to be the hero of any Zelda game as he is the "link" (ha ha) that connects every other title, and he's never had a sidekick that'd be an appropriate replacement. Though actually, a game featuring the TP design of Zelda with Smash Bros.-esque moves would probably be pretty sweet, if done right.

I personally think it'd work out best if they went the Wind Waker path and had her be playable at a certain point within a normal "Link-dominant" game...That way you could add in variety as well as get two viewpoints on a situation, killing two birds with one stone...
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2008, 11:00:59 PM »
I would play a Zelda game where "Zelda" was the main character and playable character.  I like the idea very much.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2008, 11:07:30 PM »
I would play a Zelda game where "Zelda" was the main character and playable character.  I like the idea very much.

Well aren't you a lucky duck. They already made such a game, and it's called Zelda's Adventure
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2008, 11:10:07 PM »
I think bringing up the CD-i Zeldas in a Zelda topic should be set as a bannable offense! =(
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2008, 11:19:32 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2008, 11:31:36 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.

And I'll have to make my hate-list on what PH did wrong.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2008, 11:36:39 PM »
I think there is something about Zelda games and imagination that the game makes you feel when you are playing as Link. I believe that stems from the character of those that talk to you and Link's lack of speaking.

Everything Ian said I agree with also and Deguello, you are a good writer.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2008, 11:40:29 PM »
Ugh. I have yet to write my hate-list on what TP did wrong. Ugh.

And I'll have to make my hate-list on what PH did wrong.

Just let me know when you are putting that list together, I'd love to help.
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2008, 11:43:52 PM »
My complaint with TP was that in the end it really wasn't different enough, it was basically the same style of game done three times before.

My complaint with PH was that it wasn't long enough, even with the main temple having to play through it from the beginning each time, the overall game could have been longer.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2008, 11:49:52 PM »
I guess that means I have to make a list what you all did wrong...Don't make any extra work for me... =(
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 11:51:33 PM by Bill Aurion »
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2008, 12:58:19 AM »
I dare you!
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2008, 02:36:54 AM »
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I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see

Well then they f*cking blew it!  The overworld was largely ripped right from Ocarina of Time.  Yeah it was technically different but to me discovering the world and filling in the map is a big part of what I like about Zelda.  With TP is was like "what's over here?  Oh it's Death Mountain.  Oh it's Karkariko Village.  Oh it's Zora's Domain."  Like yeah it's Hyrule but Hyrule in the NES games and in LttP and in OoT don't feel exactly the same.  They share a few common areas and often have some new ones.  And often if it's an existing area they change it up.  Death Mountain is in every Hyrule-themed game but the Gorons were brand new in OoT so it wasn't like just a rehash of the other Zeldas.  OoT also totally redesigned the Zoras.  But with TP it was like they didn't want to deviate too far from the Hyrule established in OoT.  I think as long as there are a few common locations (obviously some sort of forest, Hyrule Castle, and Death Mountain are givens) they should feel the freedom to cut loose.  They did do that in Wind Waker and I loved it aside from the fact that everything was big blue ocean of nothing.  They also did that with Minish Cap.  That is also in Hyrule but it wasn't like a slightly retooled LttP map.

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

Offline Maverick

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2008, 02:44:26 AM »
I actually would have been much much happier if they would have just flat out remade OOT.  I'm still wanting that.  Exactly the same game just with updated graphics.  If I ever win the lottery, I'll use the winnings to bribe Nintendo into doing it just for me (not that my money would mean anything to them nowadays).

Not that I wasn't happy with TP, though.  Just to be clear.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2008, 10:33:43 AM »
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I read all of the articles Nintendo Power did with the TP staff and you could tell that they weren't just trying to ape past successes or recapture what they thought the fans wanted to see

Well then they f*cking blew it!  The overworld was largely ripped right from Ocarina of Time.  Yeah it was technically different but to me discovering the world and filling in the map is a big part of what I like about Zelda.  With TP is was like "what's over here?  Oh it's Death Mountain.  Oh it's Karkariko Village.  Oh it's Zora's Domain."  Like yeah it's Hyrule but Hyrule in the NES games and in LttP and in OoT don't feel exactly the same.  They share a few common areas and often have some new ones.  And often if it's an existing area they change it up.  Death Mountain is in every Hyrule-themed game but the Gorons were brand new in OoT so it wasn't like just a rehash of the other Zeldas.  OoT also totally redesigned the Zoras.  But with TP it was like they didn't want to deviate too far from the Hyrule established in OoT.  I think as long as there are a few common locations (obviously some sort of forest, Hyrule Castle, and Death Mountain are givens) they should feel the freedom to cut loose.  They did do that in Wind Waker and I loved it aside from the fact that everything was big blue ocean of nothing.  They also did that with Minish Cap.  That is also in Hyrule but it wasn't like a slightly retooled LttP map.

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

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Offline Svevan

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Re: What makes Zelda
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2008, 10:44:48 AM »
I want to vouch for it's strange plot progression and world layout while still maintaining Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons.

Actually, could you be more specific on this?  (Having not played it yet and all...)  Isn't this what the Zelda series does anyway?  It maintains "Zelda-style action, exploration, and dungeons" (because it's Zelda, obviously), and the main focus is on the changes in story and environment...On top of that you have new gameplay mechanics added through new tools for Link to pillage and use...

In Okami, there are a few dungeons, but they are not "goals" by any means. There is a series of mysteries in the plot (similar to the first half of Twilight Princess) but the goal you must accomplish is sometimes just go to a town and talk to a bunch of people, or do some random task in a town you've already been to. It's not nearly as "rigid" as the dungeon-hopping in Zelda, where the game is clearly 8 dungeons strung together. Again, I want to offer the first half of Twilight Princess as the antithesis of the second half. In between each of the first three dungeons were some amazing things to do, like the warthog battles and such. The game felt alive, even though there were dungeons. As soon as I got wolf form and the game told me I had X number of dungeons to go, it was all over. The stuff in between became optional.

In Okami, the lead character Amaterasu does gain "new abilities" with which to fight a few bosses, but sometimes these new abilities help her with other functions of gameplay and are much more important to progressing through the world than they are to fighting. The fighting system is more RPG-like, where you must whittle your opponent down with A LOT of attacks, rather than the puzzle-style bosses of Zelda.

In Okami, the plot drives the action. The overworld is not a circle with dungeons peppered on it, but a connected series of environments, forests and lakes and beaches and deserts and hills, in what honestly feels like the old 2-D Zeldas made 3-D. When it comes to dungeons, Okami could care less. It's much more about the unfolding story being revealed in cities, in forests, in conversations, and yes, in dungeons too. It's just different in a way that I love.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2008, 10:54:34 AM »
Yeah, I also have to agree with Ian's post. TP DID do some new things that could've really given the game a real sense of self, but they weren't pushed as far as I think they could've been pushed, like the caves that Link could explore. THOSE were beautiful... but they were few, linear, and pretty pointless. Otherwise, the game felt like a jumble of things they wanted, but didn't really know how to piece together.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2008, 11:36:22 AM »
Yeah, I also have to agree with Ian's post. PH DID do some new things that could've really given the game a real sense of self, but they weren't pushed as far as I think they could've been pushed, like the caves that Link could explore. THOSE were beautiful... but they were few, linear, and pretty pointless. Otherwise, the game felt like a jumble of things they wanted, but didn't really know how to piece together.

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2008, 11:55:23 AM »
So what makes Zelda, eh?

- A fixed world in which the character can move freely (as opposed to one-off levels you can visit once and never see again)
- Within this world there are items/upgrades which enable the passing of certain obstacles as well as often enabling new combat options. These are permanent, once the player obtains them he can use them until the end of the game (or, in rare cases, until a plot event removes them)
- Movement to areas is restricted by obstacles that require items or plot events to pass
- The world contains dungeons which each contain at least one item/upgrade (which is obtained a little less than half-way into the dungeon) and a McGuffin at the end
- To complete the game it is necessary to obtain all McGuffins.
- Within a dungeon there are rooms, many of which have blocked exits which cannot be opened by combat alone but require special actions
- Throughout the world are optional upgrades which are usually more or less well hidden and give non-essential upgrades to the player character (maximum health, ammo, weapon upgrades, ...)

Yes, this makes Four Sword Adventures not a Zelda game, it's more a collection of mini-Zeldas with no worrying about whether you found all secret stuff since after the level ends it's all gone anyway.

For the record, Metroid:
- Only requires items, not plot events to access new areas (with the exception of the final area which usually requires having eliminated certain enemies)
- Does not have dungeons, the game map has multiple sections but these are still interconnected in many ways instead of all connected to only one section.

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2008, 03:14:11 PM »

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2008, 07:11:26 PM »

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2008, 10:27:25 PM »
Hardcore Zelda purists like to point out what is and isn't Zelda. If someone had suggested that Link transform into a wolf or be controlled using on a stylus 5 years ago, purists would cry foul and say "that's not Zelda." Truth is, Nintendo decides what is and isn't Zelda. We accept everything about the series because Nintendo tells us what defines a Zelda game. If Nintendo sticks to their guns and Twilight Princess really is the last Zelda of its kind, I think most fans will accept the next iteration of Zelda as a true Zelda game.

Of course, I say all this assuming that Nintendo advances the series in terms of the world they created. For example, Link won't pull out a shotgun or fly a spacecraft. I think Nintendo knows enough about the characters and the world those characters inhabit to create a new installment that may not be so conservatively Zelda but still fits into what fans can accept as a Zelda game.

Offline IceCold

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2008, 11:11:52 PM »
I think KDR nailed the technical aspects of a Zelda game. They usually work within those borders, but there's still lots of room for creativity (as Adrock implied).

Also, dungeons are far and away my favourite parts of Zelda games.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2008, 11:14:57 PM »
Hardcore Zelda purists like to point out what is and isn't Zelda. If someone had suggested that Link transform into a wolf or be controlled using on a stylus 5 years ago, purists would cry foul and say "that's not Zelda."

I'm the most hardcore Zelda fan here, and I love Wind Waker (especially the open ocean), Twilight Princess (especially the wolf mechanics), and Phantom Hourglass (especially the touch screen use)...Does this make me TOO hardcore to fit within the "hardcore Zelda purist" category? =O
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 11:16:33 PM by Bill Aurion »
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2008, 12:43:54 AM »
Ah I love the open sea, I kinda even think Wind Waker was better than TP. But I don't know...
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Offline Adrock

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2008, 02:27:23 AM »
Quote
Bill Aurion wrote:
I'm the most hardcore Zelda fan here, and I love Wind Waker (especially the open ocean), Twilight Princess (especially the wolf mechanics), and Phantom Hourglass (especially the touch screen use)...Does this make me TOO hardcore to fit within the "hardcore Zelda purist" category? =O
Sigh..... My point is that if someone were to suggest something that was never in a Zelda game before, Zelda purists would flame him to oblivion claiming "that's not Zelda" because X or Y was never in a Zelda game before. Zelda fans (notably the purists) accept something as Zelda because Nintendo makes the games a certain way and tells people that it is Zelda. If we could go back to 2004 when the DS first came out and suggest a Zelda game controlled only with a stylus, the Zelda purists would have gone nuts. It was only after fans got their hands on Phantom Hourglass that they accepted it as Zelda and even then, not everyone was happy with it.

You have to take personal preference into consideration, but I still say that, for the most part, Zelda  purists are hesitant to accept changes and additions to the series unless Nintendo puts it into a Zelda game.

Offline Stogi

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2008, 10:17:00 AM »

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.

You should play TP again.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2008, 10:26:38 AM »
TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2008, 11:16:27 AM »
TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.

TP was no more or no less "disjointed" than any other 3D Zelda game, not to mention disjointed is a completely subjective term. I felt PH was disjointed, but I'm sure you would disagree. We get it, you hate TP, but there are many of us that loved it and that tells me there is something quite redeeming about it.
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Offline Shift Key

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2008, 11:18:12 AM »
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2008, 11:20:53 AM »
TP did so much stuff ham-fisted though. It was almost disturbing to play. Rarely have I played a Nintendo game that was so out of joint with itself... except for Wind Waker. But at least Wind Waker was a clear state of incompletion. TP was a jumble of game systems that weren't integrated cohesively, very strange for a Nintendo game.

TP was no more or no less "disjointed" than any other 3D Zelda game, not to mention disjointed is a completely subjective term. I felt PH was disjointed, but I'm sure you would disagree. We get it, you hate TP, but there are many of us that loved it and that tells me there is something quite redeeming about it.

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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2008, 11:25:56 AM »

TP is the definition of trying to ape past successes or recapture what one thinks the fans want to see.  I liked it a lot but I've never played a Zelda game that was so conservative.  It's the Gunstar Super Heroes of Zelda, where they're trying so hard to please the fans that they damn near remake the earlier game (ie: OoT).

But that's EXACTLY what the Ocarina of Time fans wanted.  Ocarina of Time is the best selling Zelda game selling close to 8 million copies and when it came out in 98 it created a whole new generation of Zelda fans.  To millions of people Ocarina of Time became their first Zelda and as a result, their version of how the series is.

This is why Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were both hated by the new fans because they weren't Ocarina of Time 2.  So when Majora's Mask only sells 3 million copies and Wind Waker only sells 4 million copies, Nintendo finally gave in and gave the fans EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED, Ocarina of Time 2.  And it payed off because right now Twilight Princess has sold close to 6 million copies, and it's still counting.  By the time it finally stops selling it'll probably be close to 7 million copies making it the second best selling Zelda right behind, you guessed it, Ocarina of Time.

Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's.  Not to mention a lot of the Twilight Princess reviews even called to the game the best Zelda or one of the better ones.  Hell, the only reason the Wii version of Twilight Princess has a 94% average is because most reviews only deducted it points for being a Gamecube port.  The Gamecube version has a 96% average which makes it the second highest reviewed Zelda behind once again, Ocarina of Time.

My biggest problem with TP is I didn't get the "feelings" I got when I played OoT, MM, or Wind Waker.

You should play TP again.

I will do that one day, got any recommendations on why you say that?  It could be incentive for me.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2008, 11:43:28 AM »
I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2008, 11:45:59 AM »
I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.

Nastalgia plays a role, but I remember an explicit feeling I got playing OoT, MM, and to a lesser degree Oracles and WW.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2008, 11:46:27 AM »
I've been meaning to replay OoT for a long time now to see if that nostalgia holds up. It'd help to make me notice the points in TP I felt lacking.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2008, 11:51:32 AM »
I try not to put much merit in "feeling" because sometimes those feelings are impossible to knock out even if there are truly better games out there. It is called nostalgia and that can and does blind all of us.

Nastalgia plays a role, but I remember an explicit feeling I got playing OoT, MM, and to a lesser degree Oracles and WW.

I do too, and it was because of how fresh and new they were (well not MM so much but OOT).
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Offline wandering

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2008, 01:47:51 PM »
If Nintendo sticks to their guns and Twilight Princess really is the last Zelda of its kind, I think most fans will accept the next iteration of Zelda as a true Zelda game.

Of course, I say all this assuming that Nintendo advances the series in terms of the world they created. For example, Link won't pull out a shotgun or fly a spacecraft.

Why not? Gunpowder exists in the Zelda universe. And, I haven't played Majora's Mask, but doesn't Link travel to a moon in it?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 07:56:31 PM by Wandering »
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2008, 02:24:02 PM »
What makes a Zelda game a Zelda game?  The fusion of both the adventure and puzzle genres, with a dash of fighting.

The first, most important thing in a Zelda game is the overworld.  It must be grand, it must be interesting, and it must be a little confusing at first.  You're meant to feel insignificant, lost, and yet hope to see everything and find all the secrets.  You should probably, but not necessarily, be able to see a map of where you've been, but it shouldn't show fine details.

The dungeons should contain the puzzles, clearly.  Whether it's how you clear a room of enemies easily with the terrain given, how you open a door or find a key, or how you use your new item, each room should contain a puzzle.  If it doesn't it's useless and a waste of time.  A boss, itself, can be a puzzle, requiring you to learn what tool to use at what time, based on the boss's movement, the stage's design, and what has been acquired in the dungeon preceding the boss.

To add to the exploration, dungeons in Zelda games should rarely have a necessary order, though there should definitely be an intended order.  If any actual order is given by plot, the dungeon should be the first or last dungeon, or a batch of dungeons should be opened up.  It's also typical for one dungeon to be available after specific tools have been gained, but the entrance into one dungeon should rarely require that a previous dungeon be beaten, unless dungeons are opened in batches.

Four Swords games are not traditional Zelda games, and do not follow traditional "rules" that other Zelda games meet.

Now, when you look at Zelda games, it becomes clear that, IMO, a few games miss the "Zelda" mark, yet are in the series.  For example, in the first game, much of the basic enemy combat is meant only to slow down Link's progression, making the overworld seem a little larger than it is.  Link's Adventure branched far off the typical gameplay, and many hate it for that. Personally, of all the Zelda games  I've either played or witnessed much of, I've found that the The Legend of Zelda and A Link to the Past are the two games that best embody Zelda. 

Yes, I know that many people loved OoT, and it and Majora's Mask are great Zelda titles, but OoT just seems out of place with earlier titles.  For example, as much as Epona has become part of Zelda lore now, rides weren't really present in other Zelda titles.  Ok, sure, there were Pegasus Boots in LttP, you got me.  So why, if you have Epona, would you need the ability to teleport everywhere?  Epona and half of the Ocarina's functions contradict each other, IMO.  Now, I know Epona is used to jump fences, yes, I realize that, However, aside from the initial "Wow!" factor of riding Epona, wouldn't the game have been more fun with it's own item that can get you to the fenced areas that also could have some kind of special effect on enemies, as well?  Then, there's the whole torch thing.  What happened to the fire rod?  The ice rod?  You never gain access to an "anywhere" fire weapon, nor do you gain a tool to put out fires, either.  The combat in several areas can impede your progress, but never feels like a puzzle, but rather, a chore.  And of course, Navi really doesn't help the game.

I can't comment so much on any of the other games, since OoT, I've felt a very disinterested in the series.  From all the impressions, pictures, videos, and everything I've seen from all the games, the dungeons and overworlds feel unimaginative, gray, and much less like an adventure than they should.  OoT's puzzles were a little too simple and bland, so I've feared the same in later games, and I don't want to invest myself in a game that I'll feel is a disappointment.  Maybe I made my mind up too soon, but I feel like I was the only one who didn't feel like OoT had a "Wow!" to any of it, and perhaps it's because any time I touch it, I compare it to LttP with disregard to the 3D-ness that others were shocked at in '98.

Honestly, I just want to be able to explore anywhere I want, see things I can't yet reach, and have an environment that's full of questions and mysteries.  I don't feel like many games in the Zelda series give that feeling, but I'm pretty sure they're supposed to.  Oh, and I want to be puzzled in dungeons.  It doesn't matter how the game looks as long as it meets that criteria.  If it does, it's a Zelda game.  If it doesn't, it's an imitation or something else.  If it's okay being something else, I'm okay with it, like the Fourswords titles, which are co-op action/puzzle hybrids, and intentionally leave out the exploration.  However, I feel like a lot of the newer Zelda titles are missing the grand type of exploration, missing out on why we liked the combat, and are missing the intuitive puzzles that the earlier games did.

I would say that there's a limit to what you can do with simple block puzzles, but the Adventures of Lolo and its sequels prove that idea wrong, so I honestly think that Miyamoto & anyone that wants to be involved in Zelda need to establish the series true identity before they make another one, because with each iteration, the games seem to be losing what makes them Zelda.

Also, alternative worlds, dimensions, and gameplay, like Wolf Link, and things like that have precedence.  LttP had the Dark World and Bunny Link, OoT had Young Link's time and Old Link's time.  Really, I've felt like the purpose of the two worlds is to add an element of exploration.  Like solving a 3D jigsaw puzzle from two separate angles or something.  That's how I've felt, at least.

Edit:  As far as taking Zelda and putting the next game in a new environment, I'm actually all up for it.  I think it would inspire the developers to consider the base gameplay we like about Zelda, and re-establish that much stronger than any 3D Zelda has, since fans would probably need the gameplay more than ever to accept the game.  I would be excited to see something new that can retain the sense of adventure that older titles held.  And no, sailing doesn't have that same sense of Adventure to me.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2008, 04:16:47 PM »
Agreeing with a bulk of what thatguy said initially (up till about the dungeon segment)

Every room doesn't need to be a puzzle or have a surprise and ever inch of the overworld doesn't have to either.  They need to be scattered about to make in indeterministic.  The original LoZ would be a lot different if every screen had something to uncover.

Also, you do have the fire and ice rods in OoT.  They're just called arrows ;)

One of the trends/problems with 3d games these days is that a lot of effort is put into controlling the user environment.  (ie: invisible walls that prevent what otherwise WOULD be traversable if approached from the intended angle).  Developers are striving for a much more controlled environment.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2008, 04:43:22 PM »
Ehh, I forgot about the arrows.  To me, though, they were still arrows.

You're right, I over-exaggerated about the dungeon rooms, but I stand by what I said about the overworld.  There's something interesting about just about every "screen" in the overworld in LttP.  To me, OoT had a lot less hidden in things.  In LttP, every time I got a new item, I'd want to trek all over the map to see if there was anything new, but it certainly didn't seem the same way in OoT.  That's the feeling I'm trying to express with the map.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2008, 06:14:48 PM »
A Zelda game has a world which must be explored, an evil which must be felled, and a child who must grow up. It fills you with awe, and fear, and occasionally makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2008, 07:17:14 PM »
Epona was introduced because the 3d overworlds in OOT were large to give a sense of exploration (and because you could see far so it'd look weird if the field wasn't much larger than a room) but at the same time were empty because the system couldn't handle more and running across that huge field on foot is simply no fun. Earlier Zeldas didn't need that because the part of the overworld that was visible at any time was small enough to allow filling it with all kinds of interesting stuff.

I don't like how the boss battles have turned into item spam since OOT though, makes them really silly and easy at times.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2008, 12:34:01 AM »
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Why not? Gunpowder exists in the Zelda universe. And, I haven't played Majora's Mask, but doesn't Link travel to a moon in it?
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Offline Athrun Zala

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2008, 03:20:04 AM »
A Zelda game has a world which must be explored, an evil which must be felled, and a child who must grow up. It fills you with awe, and fear, and occasionally makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
I agree with this definition.

also, it proves that TP is not a real Zelda.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2008, 04:06:00 AM »
Don't be ridiculous. Mario Party 4 is not a real Zelda, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is. As soon as the next Zelda is released everyone's going to be looking back on TP and saying what an overlooked gem it was.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2008, 04:13:39 AM »
Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's. 

All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2008, 04:16:59 AM »
Don't be ridiculous. Mario Party 4 is not a real Zelda, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is. As soon as the next Zelda is released everyone's going to be looking back on TP and saying what an overlooked gem it was.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2008, 05:22:33 AM »
Now even though some of you guys didn't like how Twilight Princess turned out, you have to remember a lot of people did.  Most people I know loved Twilight Princess and view it as one of the best Zelda's. 

All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.
Bull. There's a lot of subtle imaginative things in the game, for one, when the Twilight world becomes apparent and you're left wondering what happened to all the people, lots of things went through my mind. There's a lot of things in TP that aren't obvious at all, like what most characters are thinking / what they are doing. It's been about a year since i've played it but these things still stick out to me while most things like the dungeons i've forgotten.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2008, 05:32:23 AM »
All of those people are wrong.

Something adventure games in general need is imagination.  It was woefully devoid in much of TP.

Christ, I wanted to stay out of this thread, but I have to point out that there's a limit to how wrong one can be...on every level...

Characters, gameplay, bosses, dungeon design, enemies, items, EVERYTHING except possibly the story (defeat Ganondorf, save the world) was unique and imaginative...Unless you can point out where you can play as a wolf, use a ball and chain, use the spinner, fight on horseback, etc, in any other Zelda game...
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Offline stevey

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2008, 05:57:35 AM »
If someone said this a year ago they would be laugh out of the forum, TP is greatest Zelda game of all time.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2008, 08:44:57 AM »
I'm sorry, no.  The WORLD wasn't really all that imaginative.  They could have done SO much more.  Could have tried something else.  There was no need to make OoT 2 after Majora's Mask and Wind Waker really set a tempo for creating new worlds with interesting facets.

If ANYONE says this isn't the least imaginiative Nintendo Zelda made since Link to the Past they're lying or just wearing rose collored glasses.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2008, 09:35:51 AM »
I'm sorry, no.  The WORLD wasn't really all that imaginative.  They could have done SO much more.  Could have tried something else.  There was no need to make OoT 2 after Majora's Mask and Wind Waker really set a tempo for creating new worlds with interesting facets.

If ANYONE says this isn't the least imaginiative Nintendo Zelda made since Link to the Past they're lying or just wearing rose collored glasses.

Wait Link to the Past wasn't imaginative? Now who is lying there! Link to the Past set the tone for the rest of the series. Whether it be the dungeon set up, alternate settings, establishment of the master sword, intricate puzzles beyond blowing up walls or pushing blocks, more focus on items impacting boss battles (LoZ had it but not to the degree LTTP took it), and one the first attempts at integrating Zelda with a continuous narrative. Not to mention that OOT is an extension of the LTTP template only in 3D, so is that not imaginative? Give me a break.

Funny, I don't recall TP having ANY resemblance to the world in OOT beyond the same name and it taking place in Hyrule. The overworld was completely different while still maintaining a sense of familiarity (which I don't think is a bad thing).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:40:54 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2008, 09:56:21 AM »
The overworld in TP was very, very... empty. Plus, it had a lot of features which weren't implemented or were ultimately pointless. There's never been a hyrule so big... or so empty. I mean, even Windwaker had ways to keep the ocean dynamic, but TP's field are... quite bland.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2008, 10:00:34 AM »
If they weren't bland, you'd bump into everything on your horse, and you'll never get that "Dances with Wolves" feeling when you play the game in your underwear.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2008, 10:00:45 AM »
The overworld in TP was very, very... empty. Plus, it had a lot of features which weren't implemented or were ultimately pointless. There's never been a hyrule so big... or so empty. I mean, even Windwaker had ways to keep the ocean dynamic, but TP's field are... quite bland.

Someone is forgetting OOT Hyrule field. TP's Hyrule field was amazing and I had a ton of fun exploring it. Also which features weren't implemented? I take it you were on the design team to have this knowledge?

This is really funny coming from someone who defended NMH's bland and empty overworld as something great. It makes TP's highly explorable overworld look like the greatest thing that ever was created for gaming (Or maybe it was a parody of something?).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 10:04:19 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Crimm

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2008, 10:17:55 AM »
No, I'm using Link to the Past as the cut-off point for "Modern Zelda".  I'm not saying it isn't imaginative, I just don't want the NES games involved in this discussion.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2008, 11:14:28 AM »
I'm disappinted in the field area because it simply lacked a cohesive character. Not only was there less to discover compared to OoT, but there were many landscape features which were put in that served no purpose whatsoever, extremely shocking for a Nintendo game. The ruins in the big western field(TP orientation), for example, were not hooked into any story or sidequest whatsoever, something I consider a HUGE oversight. The shallow lake and bridge in the southern fields too were placed, but were'nt there for any real purpose.

This is shocking because Nintendo games have always been an example of complete utilization, from getting a bottle under the bridge in LTTP to the multiplicity of holes to fall into in OoT's field. In stark contrast, the caves in TP are few and far between, possibly potent landscape features are left under-utilized, and the scale neccesitates a horse, but doesn't come anywhere close to delivering the grandeur of cresting a hill to see Hyrule Castle town right at sunrise (OoT). Sadly, most of the space of the Hyrule Fields in TP was used onlt yo make the hiding of a handful of golden bugs somewhat more interesting.

But were the developers trying to use TP's overworld as a framing mechanism for the rest of the game? If they were, they were trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Previous Hyrule fields had proved quite adept at framing the world already, so why the big spaces? For scale? I'm sorry, but Zelda should NOT become True Crime L.A. For content? We've already disproven that point above. For Reality? At GDC 2004, Aonouma said that Miyamoto often said that "Zelda is a game that values reality over realism." (More from Aonouma's 2004 GDC speech later)

...For Epona to run through?

In fact, Nintendo's forcing of the issue just went to shoe how shoe-horned the Epona feature was. Nintendo wanted to harken back to OoT, so they forced in a feature to the game, Epona, despite many areas of the game being inaccessible to the horse. Even the complaints that the warp system was so much more useful than Epona goes to show how unnecessary and extraneous and un-Nintendo-like the horse riding gameplay was. Epona is only truly important in two very much cinematic-wannabe set-pieces in the game(chasing King bulbin in the fields, and fighting him on the bridge), scripted occurences which are themselves amazing for forcing the Zelda gameplay away from the illusion of freedom into a trapped corridor of linearity.

It's shocking, because the entire western field is used almost solely for Epona's riding segments, an entire section of dead land, ringed by incongruent chasms,placed specifically for Epona to run through. *sigh* This is exactly the sort of reverse games building process that I didn't expect to see from Nintendo. For TP, they must have decided way back before 2004 that they wanted to see that LOTR-esque horse battle, and worked backwards from there to force that unnaturally into the game. This is in extremely stark contrast to the usual organic quality of Zelda games. It introduces impurities, or Aku, and Zelda is all about handling all these different elements so that the impurities and excesses are kept to a mnimum.

TP , I claim, is a game with an excess of Aku. And it's somewhat sad because the game's director, Aonouma, describes Aku and Zelda so perfectly in this section from his talk at GDC 2004:

Quote
"Even when you're making a game, mixing together different ingredients into one pot produces aku. In games, the impurities are the elements that feel unnatural or out of place. I think that making a good game or being a good chef means doing a good job of removing these impurities. By combining this slow and steady work of removing these impurities and adding the spice is what Mr. Miyamoto calls Zelda reality. Doing a good job of stirring in the occasional fresh ingredient keeps the deliciousness of Zelda and leads us to new innovations with the franchise."
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
TP is rush-job fanservice fluff.  << see, less words required.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2008, 11:58:44 AM »
Quote
What makes a Zelda game a Zelda game?  The fusion of both the adventure and puzzle genres, with a dash of fighting.

Pro said this first, and I completely agree.. Zelda games can be represented by the Triforce of Wisdom (Puzzle solving), Power (combat) and Courage (exploration).

But I completely disagree with his TP trolling. He's obviously exaggerating to elicit a reaction, and has been doing so for a long time. It's quite annoying.

EDIT:

Quote
I can't comment so much on any of the other games, since OoT, I've felt a very disinterested in the series.  From all the impressions, pictures, videos, and everything I've seen from all the games, the dungeons and overworlds feel unimaginative, gray, and much less like an adventure than they should.


Oh yeah? Wind Waker's screenshots and videos looked like that?

Quote
So why, if you have Epona, would you need the ability to teleport everywhere?  Epona and half of the Ocarina's functions contradict each other, IMO.

Well, you could only teleport to certain locations. There was still plenty of on-foot or horseback travel between areas.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:05:24 PM by IceCold »
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2008, 12:08:11 PM »
I agree about the hores battles.  I felt like they weren't really done.  Yeah, they were amusing when they happened, but after that there wasn't much to em.

If they wanted mounted combat they should have created an area where getting off your horse was certain doom, where you were threatened, or where you had to stand down an onslaught.  Take "fight on horse" beyond just a few scripted events and the odd enemy encounter, make them real experiences.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2008, 12:19:27 PM »
I'm honestly not satisfied with TP.  My enthusiasm for the game steadily went downhill, as I kept encountering more "empty" objects and flashy filler in the latter half of the game, the nature of which Kairon just articulated.  A final boss with "no" magick, governed by cheap swordplay, narrow-minded strategy, and POOR programming is not fit close off a formula-generation of 3D Zelda games.  A false Princess Zelda boss fight, whose time was spent doing mostly nothing, doesn't help the situation, instilling the idea it was mostly for show, lowering her value in the overall product.  Those are just the obvious tidbits.

Dare I say, the game somehow insults the player's merit.

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 12:24:15 PM by Professional 666 »
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Offline IceCold

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2008, 12:40:04 PM »
That's better.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2008, 12:50:48 PM »
This thread is a broken record of discussions that took place last year during Wii's gaming drought.

lol zelda fans
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2008, 01:32:29 PM »
I felt that TP's overworld was much better than OOT's but then again I hate almost everything about OOT. Even if the stuff on the fields didn't have any purpose in the story I think that gave it more of a point, it doesn't feel like exploration when all you see is a sign "come back later" and later get guided to those places anyway. To me exploration is seeing things I would not see otherwise.

But I think the original question was in how much Okami differs from Zelda. One difference is that you rarely return to "cleared" parts of the overworld for anything besides using new abilites to unearth some minor treasures.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2008, 02:45:12 PM »
A Zelda game has a world which must be explored, an evil which must be felled, and a child who must grow up. It fills you with awe, and fear, and occasionally makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
I agree with this definition.

also, it proves that TP is not a real Zelda.

If you're saying Link wasn't a child at the beginning of Twilight Princess, I disagree.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2008, 05:54:58 PM »
I would really like to see Link be more of a combination of a warrior and mage. I think that could add a lot to the series. OoT was the closest Link ever got to being a mage and I would really like to see that go further and evolve into new gameplay mechanics. As for the world I really do like imaginative worlds and I believe TP has it(western section, horseback fighting on bridge) although not as much as WW. Those parts were very memorable and fun to play to me. With TP they tried hard to keep the OoT feel and it kept the game from feeling completely fresh.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2008, 06:42:08 PM »
This thread makes me want to punch babies.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2008, 07:21:37 PM »
Haha, wow, you do realize you can say the same thing about OOT right? Hyrule field is the epitome of excessive in that game, it was one huge field with NOTHING to do in it. More to discover in OOT? I think you need to play OOT again because TP beats it over the head when it comes to discovery.

Epona, one of the main complaints about OOT was the empty field (I'm sorry but your "holes to fall into" was not discovery, and most did not care for it. So I think Nintendo found a balance between utilizing Epona and not having to trek accross a long distance. In fact it could be argued that the warp system was far more Zelda like than OOT since the whistles did that in LTTP and LoZ.  Heck you could even argue that Epona is anti-Zelda if you want to start saying what is or is not Zelda. So please, this is bordering on silly hate-rage, the complaints about Zelda: TP were always about it being too similar to OOT not some mutant like Kairon is trying to suggest.

Zelda: TP was the next step in the Zelda series evolution, like Wind Waker, it integrated more cinematic elements into the main story. Because of lack of N64 hardware limitations they were able to expand the world leaving more to be explored. More than once I was in awe of Zelda: TPs world, and I could not wait to explore every nook and cranny of it. I have no doubt Miyamoto would have expanded the Zelda world himself if he had the hardware power to do it, in fact he was a key part to TP which I think Kairon is forgetting. To even argue that OOT Hyrule field had more merit than TP is ludicrus at best since it was TRUE filler, regardless if it had secret holes to fall into. In TP I hated to go past areas in Hyrule field that I could explore, in OOT I couldn't get through the field fast enough.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 07:46:39 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2008, 08:51:06 PM »
I have nothing against expanding the landscape of Hyrule. I'm all for horseback riding or epic scale. I have nothing against warps even. But TP simply implemented these in an uneven fashion.

The underutilization of Hyrule Field's main features, the excess of warps for areas beyond epona's reach, the lack of real visual setpieces in the fields even... This was a great game, but as a Zelda-quality or Nintendo-quality title, it was surprisingly not as well put together as I was expecting.

So GP, how does TP excel in discovery? There are few caves to delve into(and even then they're exceedingly linear), you're punished for discovering with excess rupees you can't carry around (there's no worse punishment for an explorer than discovering a new place, finding a treasure chest... then not being allowed to take what's inside), and the twilight dichotomy that worked so well in the beginning of the game is virtually stripped away from you in the second half. Not to mention, on the whole TP is one of, if not the most, linear, scripted, on-rails Zelda ever.
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Offline Armak88

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2008, 08:59:15 PM »
I can see both sides of this argument, but to say that TP is not a Zelda game is insane. If anything, TP is too zelda, and that's the problem. I enjoyed TP a lot. I felt that the dungeons were extremely well done and the boss fights were fun. The game would toy with your expectations because it was so similar to OoT, which I thought was clever. I was blown away when the magnet in the fire temple first pulled me up to the ceiling with the iron boots. But then there were elements that felt underdeveloped. The use of wolf link, the sword techniques (they really should have introduced sword/shield using enemies earlier i the game) and I felt like some of the items really could have been used more. But this only tells me that the game was not perfect. The only other complaint that I had was that it was too easy, but I think most games are heading that direction, which is too bad, but I don't mind as much if they are still fun.

What it comes down to is that the only reason TP isn't seen as better than OoT is that OoT came first. TP is better than OoT in every way. So this I suppose brings me to my question. It might be another thread but all the complaining begs the asking, what is it that you want to see from the next zelda game?
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2008, 09:21:51 PM »
Ocarina's field was the result of N64's bleeding edge technology.  Be happy.

TP's field(s) was meant to be zoomed by as scenery (where did i hear that before...), as the wolf and the horse enabled it so (on the flip side, it also became a time filler).  The avatar will encounter very little without moving forward in some sense (roaming on foot is somewhat ridiculous and is entirely the fault of the player).

But yeah, TP was a hand-holding Disney ride.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2008, 09:34:25 PM »
What it comes down to is that the only reason TP isn't seen as better than OoT is that OoT came first. TP is better than OoT in every way. So this I suppose brings me to my question. It might be another thread but all the complaining begs the asking, what is it that you want to see from the next zelda game?

I want more use of the torch. More caves, dark ruins, and maybe even a semi-combat use for it. Light is a major aspect of exploration, I think it could be used to great effect in an exploration game...

Also, I'd like to see more vertical uses of the hookshot like from TP, but maybe a bit more natural/rappelling/spelunking sort of, not the mechanical way it was done in TP.

Ocarina's field was the result of N64's bleeding edge technology.  Be happy.

TP's field(s) was meant to be zoomed by as scenery (where did i hear that before...), as the wolf and the horse enabled it so (on the flip side, it also became a time filler).  The avatar will encounter very little without moving forward in some sense (roaming on foot is somewhat ridiculous and is entirely the fault of the player).

But yeah, TP was a hand-holding Disney ride.

I guess I can see the "zoomed by" as scenery bit... but that's anti-thetical to the explorative nature of Zelda games isn't it? The natural sense of Zelda should be to take the time to become personally acquainted with nooks and crannies in the landscape. Miyamoto games are like Japanese gardens, a small amount of space but with choreographed discovery around every bend. This line of "scenery you zoom by" sounds extremely disjunctive.
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2008, 09:57:53 PM »
Does every flipping footstep you make have to lead you to a rock (or an octorok) like in Zelda 1?

To me, TP's field seemed to be designated as your horse's playground.

What would the game look like if Zelda 1's raw, "content"-filled world design showed up in today's games?  You'd get the likes of Pikmin and Metroid Prime.  TP has these areas, but they've been separated from the field areas (the outskirts of the main map, I suppose), and they're not necessarily horse-friendly.

Now, if there was some wicked subterranean regions, full of more secrets, beneath the entire field, accessible from a slightly odd but inconspicuous tree (Princess Bride, anyone?), that would be neat, and would provide a contrast to the calm emptiness of the field.  Unfortunately Nintendo doesn't want to take these kinds of risks anymore, cuz they're too conservative in order to please fans by making an overly-Zelda Zelda; or they wouldn't have any ideas left for Metroid.

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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2008, 10:02:23 PM »
I loved the horse back fighting, it almost had that GTA feel of it, something you could just kinda do for hours. Much like the fishing was in OOT.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2008, 10:03:05 PM »
Quote
I'm disappinted in the field area because it simply lacked a cohesive character. Not only was there less to discover compared to OoT, but there were many landscape features which were put in that served no purpose whatsoever, extremely shocking for a Nintendo game. The ruins in the big western field(TP orientation), for example, were not hooked into any story or sidequest whatsoever, something I consider a HUGE oversight. The shallow lake and bridge in the southern fields too were placed, but were'nt there for any real purpose.

!@#*(%

That's the only way to describe what was going through my mind when I read this...Maybe it was because I spent my entire childhood in the woods, but I take exploration very seriously...And the very core of exploration is that you don't EXPECT to find something...

That is actually the problem with most adventure games: the fact that the gamer (such as yourself) has been tricked/trained into thinking that everything must have a purpose...You see it with a lot of games, where some weird thing pops up and gamers all over the internet are intent on it having some deeper meaning...Wind Waker was actually an excellent step in the opposite direction of this flawed game design, producing islands that had little or no purpose to the main direction of the game...

In the real world, if you were out exploring a vast field, and you see a really tall tree out in the middle of it, what would you do?  Most likely go and check it out because it stands out...But when you get there, are you expecting a reward?  I sure as hell hope not...Exploration is about finding and discovering new things, NOT expecting a payout from it...That just makes a payout just that much sweeter when you do find something of importance...
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2008, 10:08:51 PM »
Lol bill, treasure maps don't count.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2008, 11:11:14 PM »
I wonder if part of any of the "problems" with TP or other Zelda games is that the bar has been set too high.

I got into Zelda with LttP.  I don't really care for the NES Zeldas.  LttP is where all the elements that make me a fan of Zelda were introduced.  After that comes Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.  Well hell you could give me a list of the best games of all time, have those titles as the top four and I would have a hard time disagreeing.  The Zelda series busted out four of the greatest games ever IN A ROW.  Well how does one follow up on that?  Mario had that problem with Mario Sunshine and Zelda has that problem as well.  Once you get on such a role that fans get used to every new sequel being a GOAT candidate even a great game is going to be a bit of a disappointment.

Zelda probably has raised the bar higher than any videogame series in existence.  OoT is the popular choice for greatest game of all time.  It tops GameRankings almost ten years after it's release.  The game got perfect 10's from everyone.  Anyone who craps on it in any way is accused of trolling.  The game has become mythical.  It's the Citizen Kane of videogames.  Nintendo can probably never top it.  They can make a game that is technically as good or better but it won't have the mystique.  And if they ever top it then they're f*cked again because then they'll struggle with topping THAT game.

I think Nintendo is fully aware of this too.  That's why Majora's Mask was such a unique title.  They knew on the N64 that an OoT2 wasn't going to fly so they turned OoT on it's ear and made more of a companion and it worked.  But once they moved to newer hardware fans were obviously going to expect a sequel that uses the new hardware to provide a jump up and it's just too hard to do that.

I guess they should just try to make great Zelda games and we'll all see which ones we become most attached to.  There are people here that are as ga-ga over WW or TP as I am over Link's Awakening.  That's just how things work.  For me the post-N64 Zelda game that really grabbed my interest was Minish Cap of all things.  I couldn't even tell you why but I plowed through that game in days and couldn't get enough of it.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2008, 12:05:14 AM »
Guess that's why I hate OOT, I played Wind Waker before it and thus lacked the "OMG 3D!!" effect, instead noticing the improvements Wind Waker brought and missing them.

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2008, 12:45:42 AM »
Quote
Guess that's why I hate OOT, I played Wind Waker before it and thus lacked the "OMG 3D!!" effect, instead noticing the improvements Wind Waker brought and missing them.

There was more to OoT than "OMG 3D!!".  The ambition of the game provided more of the wow factor at the time.  I mean you play the instrument with button combinations!  The sun rises and sets!  If you hold a stick out near a butterfly sometimes it will land on your stick!  At the time that level of detail was unheard of in any videogame.

Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2008, 03:19:29 AM »
Quote
I'm disappinted in the field area because it simply lacked a cohesive character. Not only was there less to discover compared to OoT, but there were many landscape features which were put in that served no purpose whatsoever, extremely shocking for a Nintendo game. The ruins in the big western field(TP orientation), for example, were not hooked into any story or sidequest whatsoever, something I consider a HUGE oversight. The shallow lake and bridge in the southern fields too were placed, but were'nt there for any real purpose.

!@#*(%

That's the only way to describe what was going through my mind when I read this...Maybe it was because I spent my entire childhood in the woods, but I take exploration very seriously...And the very core of exploration is that you don't EXPECT to find something...

That is actually the problem with most adventure games: the fact that the gamer (such as yourself) has been tricked/trained into thinking that everything must have a purpose...You see it with a lot of games, where some weird thing pops up and gamers all over the internet are intent on it having some deeper meaning...Wind Waker was actually an excellent step in the opposite direction of this flawed game design, producing islands that had little or no purpose to the main direction of the game...

In the real world, if you were out exploring a vast field, and you see a really tall tree out in the middle of it, what would you do?  Most likely go and check it out because it stands out...But when you get there, are you expecting a reward?  I sure as hell hope not...Exploration is about finding and discovering new things, NOT expecting a payout from it...That just makes a payout just that much sweeter when you do find something of importance...

I agree with you, but TP almost punishes you for exploration. There's not much to discover, no nooks, no crannies, no hooks for player attention. Exploration, to me, means developing a personal relationship with the landscape, learning how you fill the space and how you can personally use the space. The space is... I never really developed a communication with the landscape in TP...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 03:37:59 AM by Kairon »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2008, 03:35:34 AM »
You mean TP?

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Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2008, 03:38:25 AM »
Whoopsie-daisy. Man I knew I was tired. And this is before GDC even...urrrggghh
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #95 on: February 20, 2008, 03:38:59 AM »
Don't tell me you're going to GDC.
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Offline KnowsNothing

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #96 on: February 20, 2008, 06:03:32 AM »
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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #97 on: February 20, 2008, 06:26:02 AM »
Quote
Guess that's why I hate OOT, I played Wind Waker before it and thus lacked the "OMG 3D!!" effect, instead noticing the improvements Wind Waker brought and missing them.

There was more to OoT than "OMG 3D!!".  The ambition of the game provided more of the wow factor at the time.  I mean you play the instrument with button combinations!  The sun rises and sets!  If you hold a stick out near a butterfly sometimes it will land on your stick!  At the time that level of detail was unheard of in any videogame.

I think that's part of my problem, Ian.  I think they were too ambitious with OoT, and in the end, I think a lot of actual gameplay was left out for the little details, and those little details weren't worth it.  I think few saw the forest through the trees, and I wanted a nice forest.

Offline Kairon

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2008, 12:22:55 PM »
It's the little details that make the game. The reason the adults in my family knew what Super Mario 64 was was because Mario fell asleep if you did nothing for awhile.
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Offline Mikintosh

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2008, 12:56:48 PM »
Quote
Guess that's why I hate OOT, I played Wind Waker before it and thus lacked the "OMG 3D!!" effect, instead noticing the improvements Wind Waker brought and missing them.

There was more to OoT than "OMG 3D!!".  The ambition of the game provided more of the wow factor at the time.  I mean you play the instrument with button combinations!  The sun rises and sets!  If you hold a stick out near a butterfly sometimes it will land on your stick!  At the time that level of detail was unheard of in any videogame.

I think that's part of my problem, Ian.  I think they were too ambitious with OoT, and in the end, I think a lot of actual gameplay was left out for the little details, and those little details weren't worth it.  I think few saw the forest through the trees, and I wanted a nice forest.

What, did they cut something out?

And what exactly would have been gained by them being less amibitious? OoT was such a fantastic game that they could essentially recycle the engine three more times while simply changing the environments and stories and I gladly buy each one because they got the formula so right the first time. The fact that they do something new and different with each installment rather than just making OoT2 & 3 & 4 is what makes Zelda as a series worth it.

Offline decoyman

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2008, 09:21:30 PM »
I think a lot of us are victims of the over-hype of TP. We waited so long, and the game became so built-up, that when we finally got to play it we couldn't help but be disappointed. This is also because what Twilight Princess did well, it did SO well that other things that were only done "acceptably" begin to tarnish in comparison.

No, TP isn't perfect. But neither is OOT.

This brings up an interesting point: barriers to immersion. It's hard to go back to play Ocarina of Time for someone who's already played Wind Waker or Twilight Princess because of these increased barriers to immersion inherent with an older game. As I see it, there are two main things standing in the way of a gamer and the game communing: presentation (graphics/sound) and control.

As presentation gets better and controllers are refined, it becomes virtually impossible to step back to a more primitive time and enjoy a game in its original context (as gamers experienced it when it was first released). How does the saying go? "A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimension" (Oliver Holmes)... in essence, we are creatures of the present whose values and predilections are shaped by what we have experienced. Further, as nostalgia begins to take a role in our evaluations of games from the past, these evaluations become further divided from those who experienced it much later, out of its historical order.

I would also argue that, as we age, we become harsher critics in everything, games included. Yet, we retain our original judgments of games from when we first played them, whether that was yesterday or as a seven-year-old. What I'm trying to get at is...

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2008, 10:25:02 PM »
Nintendo set the bar high.  But not high enough, which is why they keep running into it.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2008, 04:34:44 PM »
Oh, i won the thread.
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Offline mantidor

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2008, 11:44:25 AM »
what the hell? an old TP rant thread and I did not participate in it?

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Offline EasyCure

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2008, 11:48:37 AM »
Which by the way i JUST bought yesterday, so if anyone wants to do that wi-fi battle thing let me know :)

same goes for mario kart, tetris, and animal crossing since i can finally play those games online... soooo late to the party :(
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Offline animecyberrat

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Re: What makes Zelda Zelda?
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2008, 12:36:36 PM »
I already got rid of Mario Kart but I have Tetris plugged into my DS permanently. 
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