Topic: Disney bought Fox: Fox Shareholders Agreed to $71B Disney Buyout!!

[UncleBob]

There's some part of me that wants to rebut the Luke meme with arguing that most people don't follow a linear path from bad/conflicted to pure goodness, and often fight against their weaknesses their entire lives with both victories and failures.  But the internet at large wants Luke to be a purely good and infallible hero, I get it.  Also I feel like I've already lost by arguing with a meme.

Agreed on all this.

Luke was the original Mary Sue, being a little whiney farm boy who was just amazingly talented with The Force due to his secret lineage of Midiclorians that allowed him to become the hero of the movies - when he spent half of them just being a whiney little twit.  Yoda didn't want to train him and knew it was a bad idea from the start.

And now, fans are surprised that Luke is a terrible person and a whiney little twit.

I wonder if they even watched the original trilogy.

[ThePerm]

Well hopefully Rey will join the dark side in this next movie. They should have done it in the last move, but there is still time. Also, Luke doesn't die like we thought. He merely figured out how to teleport, which will lead to some bad-ass fight scenes. Also, Luke should wear all white like Gandalf did when Gandalf came back from the dead.

[oohhboy]

Agreed on all this.

Luke was the original Mary Sue, being a little whiney farm boy who was just amazingly talented with The Force due to his secret lineage of Midiclorians that allowed him to become the hero of the movies - when he spent half of them just being a whiney little twit.  Yoda didn't want to train him and knew it was a bad idea from the start.

And now, fans are surprised that Luke is a terrible person and a whiney little twit.

I wonder if they even watched the original trilogy.

This line of thought is exists is to be a hot take and a fabrication to coverup the sequels horrendous writing.

[broodwars]

There's some part of me that wants to rebut the Luke meme with arguing that most people don't follow a linear path from bad/conflicted to pure goodness, and often fight against their weaknesses their entire lives with both victories and failures.  But the internet at large wants Luke to be a purely good and infallible hero, I get it.  Also I feel like I've already lost by arguing with a meme.

Agreed on all this.

Luke was the original Mary Sue, being a little whiney farm boy who was just amazingly talented with The Force due to his secret lineage of Midiclorians that allowed him to become the hero of the movies - when he spent half of them just being a whiney little twit.  Yoda didn't want to train him and knew it was a bad idea from the start.

And now, fans are surprised that Luke is a terrible person and a whiney little twit.

I wonder if they even watched the original trilogy.

Luke is so not a Mary Sue. He gets a crash course on the Force from Obi Wan, and the most he ever does in the original movie is passively amplify his existing piloting skills for a single shot & some evasion. At the beginning of Empire, all he can do is crudely pull his lightsaber to him. Then he gets a REAL training period with Yoda that's still incomplete, so Vader kicks his ass & chops his hand off.

In Jedi, he has much more experience, and the EMPEROR still kicks his ass. Vader has to kill the Emperor for him. Luke actually gets hurt & loses a fair amount in the OT.

By contrast, Rey is the Wunderkin.

[UncleBob]

>This line of thought is exists is to be a hot take and a fabrication to coverup the sequels horrendous writing.

I very strongly remember Wizard and ToyFare magazines making fun of Luke for being a whiny farm boy often.

But that could have just been them setting up a rebuttal for the bad story telling in the sequels twenty years later.

>Then he gets a REAL training period with Yoda that's still incomplete,

Luke's six months of training with Yoda, running through the swamp while Yoda wacks him with his beater is hardly comparable to the near lifetime of experience Rey has scavenging, grifting, and fending for herself in a wild-west space world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvFMO1aoNk

Seriously, folks - Mark Hamill himself, the man who has publically gone on record with not being happy with Luke's treatment in 8, has stated in interviews that he played Luke as a whiny turd in the OT on purpose.  To deny this is just silly.

[nickmitch]

Now bring me Doom!!!
and who wants to bet that there is a new end credit scene being worked on for Endgame and Spider-Man right now.

There's gotta be something going on.  I think the easiest thing would be a Deadpool 4th wall breaking scene with some of the Avengers crew.

I've been wondering how they introduce everyone.  The Fantastic Four could've been trapped in the Quantum Realm this whole time (bit of stretch though, if you'll pardon the pun).  But the NYC Avengers Tower is perfect for the Baxter Building. 

I've even been thinking that maybe Endgame ends with Cap and the crew making a universe where the snap didn't happen, forcing themselves to abandon the old universe for a super sad/dark ending.  But that wouldn't really explain why there are suddenly mutants.

[UncleBob]

Mutants are caused by the snap - people who were snapped then reversed are at risk of genetic mutation or some such.

Whatever they come up with, I look forward to seeing how they introduce Magneto.  His ties to WWII are so much a part of his character...

[broodwars]

>This line of thought is exists is to be a hot take and a fabrication to coverup the sequels horrendous writing.

I very strongly remember Wizard and ToyFare magazines making fun of Luke for being a whiny farm boy often.

But that could have just been them setting up a rebuttal for the bad story telling in the sequels twenty years later.

>Then he gets a REAL training period with Yoda that's still incomplete,

Luke's six months of training with Yoda, running through the swamp while Yoda wacks him with his beater is hardly comparable to the near lifetime of experience Rey has scavenging, grifting, and fending for herself in a wild-west space world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvFMO1aoNk

Seriously, folks - Mark Hammill himself, the man who has publically gone on record with not being happy with Luke's treatment in 8, has stated in interviews that he played Luke as a whiny turd in the OT on purpose.  To deny this is just silly.

A Mary Sue is a wish fulfillment character inserted into a story who's just naturally better at everything than everyone else & everyone loves them. It's named after a Star Trek fan fiction character who was exactly like that.

Luke being a whiny kid in A New Hope doesn't make him a Mary Sue. However, Ray's impeccable list of talents in just TFA ALONE do, talents that can't be hand-waived away with "she had a hard life."

Han tells her the Jedi exist, and she does the mind trick on her second attempt. She knows and pilots the Falcon, a ship she's never BEEN IN before, better than Han. She beats Kylo Ten, someone who HAS had lightsaber training, in her 1st lightsaber duel.

And that's not even getting into her talents beyond TFA.

[UncleBob]

Who doesn't like Luke in the Star Wars universe?  He gets a big open mouth kiss from his sister.  The dirty scoundrel Han Solo becomes his BFF.  His power of love even turns one of the biggest bads in the universe good.

Luke, with no on-screen experience in flying space craft, jumps into a military vehicle and outflies entire squadrons of pilots, making a near impossible shot (which, alone, is shitty story teling until it was retconned in Rogue One) without targeting systems.

Yes, Rey barely manages to beat Ren, who is bleeding out from Chewbacca's shot and with the help of FINN.  That's perfectly believable. Let's see you lose half your blood and hold your own against an opponent who's been fighting for survival their entire life.

[Adrock]

Han tells her the Jedi exist, and she does the mind trick on her second attempt. She knows and pilots the Falcon, a ship she's never BEEN IN before, better than Han. She beats Kylo Ten, someone who HAS had lightsaber training, in her 1st lightsaber duel.

I’m not debating that other stuff again. For the bolded part: Get right the **** out of here with that. Han made the Kessler Run in less than twelve parsecs, motherfucker. No one pilots the Millennium Falcon better than him.

[broodwars]

Who doesn't like Luke in the Star Wars universe?  He gets a big open mouth kiss from his sister.  The dirty
Luke, with no on-screen experience in flying space craft, jumps into a military vehicle and outflies entire squadrons of pilots, making a near impossible shot (which, alone, is shitty story teling until it was retconned in Rogue One) without targeting systems.

Yeah, I'm not letting this one go. He mentions in the movie several times that he's a fairly decent pilot from piloting his Skyhopper. If you go by the deleted scenes and the Radio Drama (and I do, because I love that Radio Drama) when his friend Biggs gets more screen time, Luke was widely considered good enough to enroll in the Imperial Flight Academy.

In the Radio Drama (which is largely based on an earlier Lucas script for ANH before it was edited down), Luke doesn't just get automatically thrown into an X-Wing. Dodanna & Biggs throw him in a flight simulator, where Luke "only dies twice." He's told to "cheer up" at that, as he did better "than most of the people going up in this mission" and Biggs was "throwing half the Imperial Starfleet" at him. The 1st episode of the Radio Drama also shows-up Luke's piloting expertise flying races against some local hotshots, where he wins a race by flying through "The Stone Needle", which you can find in the training level of the 1st Rogue Squadron game. He impresses Biggs, who's just about to defect to the Rebels.

You can argue the canonical nature of the Radio Drama, but it doesn't contradict anything that happens in the film and is supported by lines in the film. If we're supposed to accept that Rey is some badass fighter because she had to fight to survive off-screen, we can also accept that Luke was a hotshot fighter pilot who was never allowed to leave the farm and join the Imperial Academy. That is, by the way, a plot point in ANH.

[BeautifulShy]

>This line of thought is exists is to be a hot take and a fabrication to coverup the sequels horrendous writing.

I very strongly remember Wizard and ToyFare magazines making fun of Luke for being a whiny farm boy often.

But that could have just been them setting up a rebuttal for the bad story telling in the sequels twenty years later.

>Then he gets a REAL training period with Yoda that's still incomplete,

Luke's six months of training with Yoda, running through the swamp while Yoda wacks him with his beater is hardly comparable to the near lifetime of experience Rey has scavenging, grifting, and fending for herself in a wild-west space world.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvFMO1aoNk

Seriously, folks - Mark Hammill himself, the man who has publically gone on record with not being happy with Luke's treatment in 8, has stated in interviews that he played Luke as a whiny turd in the OT on purpose.  To deny this is just silly.

A Mary Sue is a wish fulfillment character inserted into a story who's just naturally better at everything than everyone else & everyone loves them. It's named after a Star Trek fan fiction character who was exactly like that.

Luke being a whiny kid in A New Hope doesn't make him a Mary Sue. However, Ray's impeccable list of talents in just TFA ALONE do, talents that can't be hand-waived away with "she had a hard life."

Han tells her the Jedi exist, and she does the mind trick on her second attempt. She knows and pilots the Falcon, a ship she's never BEEN IN before, better than Han. She beats Kylo Ten, someone who HAS had lightsaber training, in her 1st lightsaber duel.

And that's not even getting into her talents beyond TFA.

She isn't a Mary Sue.  Rey is someone who is generally surprised with her abilities all throughout TFA. She knows the Falcon because of her boss owned the Falcon after Han lost it and his boss made some alterations on it.  So she knows how it is currently built than Han did in the past. She even makes a comment about flying in ships before but has never left the planet to Finn after they escape at the beginning. 

Kylo Ren was trying to get her to his side so he wanted her alive. He also was blasted by that powerful gun that Han and Chewie were using on stromtroopers that just blasted those away. So he is very injured and kept hitting his wound to keep himself going during the fights with Finn and Rey.  Rey was also being very defensive and evasive while Kylo was being very aggressive with his movement until she realized she had the strength within her to beat Kylo in the state he was in.   

Also a lot of what Rey can do isn't explicitly spelled out for the viewer.   She is shown getting different ship parts and sells them so she has some working knowledge of how ships work. Her fighting ability is because of having to live on a planet all alone and having to learn how to defend herself as most women need to ,sadly have to learn, growing up. 

[ThePerm]

Dead Pool is a Mary Sue. He gains all those abilities just by being tortured.

[Adrock]

Snoke very specifically instructs Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him. He wasn’t trying at all to kill her until she started getting the upperhand. Ren just killed his father, got shot to **** by Chewbac...

Nope. I’m not getting into this. I’m still jokingly mad about the “better than Han” comment.

[UncleBob]

I'm not letting this one go. He mentions in the movie several times that he's a fairly decent pilot from piloting his Skyhopper.

I was hoping you'd bring this up.

Luke's T-16 Skyhopper has a maximum altitude of 300km.  The Earth's atmosphere extends roughly 480kms above the surface of the planet.  It's reasonable to assume Tatooine's atmosphere is similar.

Thus my earlier statement, "no on-screen experience in flying space craft"

You can come up with as much off-screen stuff as you want.  I have no doubt in 40+ years, we'll have a plethora of pre-Seven Rey material that one could use to justify whatever nit picks you might have.  Which would be handwaved away as ret conning and poor story telling on the part of the movie.  Which I'd agree with. Just like using the radio drama from four years after the release of ANH is ret conning and explaining away poor story telling.

[BeautifulShy]

So which of these new Fox properties does everyone think will get a movie first in the MCU?

[UncleBob]

So which of these new Fox properties does everyone think will get a movie first in the MCU?

Bartman.  Obviously.

Day 1 tickets for that.

[nickmitch]

Mutants are caused by the snap - people who were snapped then reversed are at risk of genetic mutation or some such.

Whatever they come up with, I look forward to seeing how they introduce Magneto.  His ties to WWII are so much a part of his character...

Right. There are VERY few ways (and none that I can really think of) to make it work without time travel based shenanigans.

So which of these new Fox properties does everyone think will get a movie first in the MCU?

Well, if they still put out Dark Phoenix, which I don't think should count, I'd imagine they'd do another  X-Men or Deadpool film, especially if they keep those characters goings.  However, if not, I think Fantastic 4 would be the way to go.  I think the Ragnarok director would be a good fit and is already familiar with the MCU and they would tie nicely into the cosmic pieces of phase 4.

Edit: Posting the below made me realize that the current incarnation of Alpha Flight could be a good fit, especially since it's a team led by Captain Marvel.

[nickmitch]

So which of these new Fox properties does everyone think will get a movie first in the MCU?

Picture for conversational reference:

[Adrock]

Not a new theory: Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver didn’t get their powers from the Mind Stone. They’ve been mutants the entire time and the MCU has been all House of M for years.

Marvel probably couldn’t and wouldn’t do a straight adaptation. Maybe Scarlet Witch de-powered mutants and made everyone forget about them including herself. Baron von Strucker used Loki’s scepter to unlock their mutant powers thinking the scepter gave them their power.

Reversing the snap in Endgame makes her remember what she did and/or resets “No more mutants” and mutants slowly begin regaining their powers and memories. Avengers 5 is Avengers vs X-Men.

[BeautifulShy]

Mutants are caused by the snap - people who were snapped then reversed are at risk of genetic mutation or some such.

Whatever they come up with, I look forward to seeing how they introduce Magneto.  His ties to WWII are so much a part of his character...

Right. There are VERY few ways (and none that I can really think of) to make it work without time travel based shenanigans.

So which of these new Fox properties does everyone think will get a movie first in the MCU?

Well, if they still put out Dark Phoenix, which I don't think should count, I'd imagine they'd do another  X-Men or Deadpool film, especially if they keep those characters goings.  However, if not, I think Fantastic 4 would be the way to go.  I think the Ragnarok director would be a good fit and is already familiar with the MCU and they would tie nicely into the cosmic pieces of phase 4.

Edit: Posting the below made me realize that the current incarnation of Alpha Flight could be a good fit, especially since it's a team led by Captain Marvel.

I think the Fantastic 4 could work for the first MCU one for a few reasons. It expands on the cosmic part of the MCU and you could bring in Galactus and the Silver Surfer.  Reed Richards is one of the smartest people in Marvel comics and he could show his expertise with different mutations in the future but if Quick Silver and the Scarlet Witch come back then he can show the remaining Avengers ect that they are mutants and not powered my the mind stone.  Then for the post credit scene they could do a little leaser for the X-Men and maybe tie in with Dark Phoenix and introduce the Shi'ar empire and the fall out over what Jean did in the Dark Phoenix movie. 

This may not work if they want to introduce the X-Men in their own movie or if they want a new cast but that may be interesting.

I also like what Adrock said and it kinda ties in with mine in some respects.

[nickmitch]

Not a new theory: Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver didn’t get their powers from the Mind Stone. They’ve been mutants the entire time and the MCU has been all House of M for years.

Marvel probably couldn’t and wouldn’t do a straight adaptation. Maybe Scarlet Witch de-powered mutants and made everyone forget about them including herself. Baron von Strucker used Loki’s scepter to unlock their mutant powers thinking the scepter gave them their power.

Reversing the snap in Endgame makes her remember what she did and/or resets “No more mutants” and mutants slowly begin regaining their powers and memories. Avengers 5 is Avengers vs X-Men.

Ah! I started to think "House of M", but that story took place in a world where Magneto was king of the world or something.  So, I thought, well maybe it could be the inverse, but then I got caught up on why Scarlet Witch was still there with her full powers.

But the Mind Stone thing would make sense, since it could be causing the to "remember" their powers.

[oohhboy]

RE: Uncle bob

Of course Luke a whiny turd at the start. He is stuck on the ass end of the galaxy desperate enough to go to into government military service to gtfo. He then gets lied to, pushed to physical, mental limits and emotional reveals. He has legitimate complaints. Of course the video has a lot of BS for comedy reasons, had some laughs.

He is experienced with flying, combat manoeuvres and shooting but his 'shoots back at you' combat inexperience almost kills him when he disregards advice. They wouldn't have sent him up unless he had shown some aptitude or skill. Biggs could have vouched for his flying skills "Just like back home".

He barely survives the Death Star, gets saved twice and needed Wedge to cover him, as part of a massive team effort to make a shot that he might have never had to make. He gets shot down in ESB losing his gunner. He barely survives to the end of the trilogy and has to rely on an emotional appeal to an estranged father's core spark of good. His combat ability and use of the Force the majority of the time is defensive, unimpressive, weak compared to every other user.

None of this requires material outside of the movies and I haven't listed every example.

A little look into definitions. Here is a softball version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhrfhQbY0K8

Luke is as about as far away from a Mary Sue as you could possibly get. Luke is an inspirational character not a self insert.

R1 answered a question nobody asked for from one line of dialogue. It was also answered better outside of the movie in the first Dark Forces game, Kyle Katarn stole it because he got paid to do so, killed a bunch of people to do it.

300 km is LEO and is space. Depending on the organization 80-100 km will get you astronaut wings. The lowest orbiting satellite I remember off hand was GOCE at 255km to measure Earth's gravity. 480km is an arbitrary number you threw out of nowhere. This is why I find you so disingenuous as you throw out obvious lies as chaff.

[ThePerm]

I think when they re-introduce the X-men it should be through Deadpool. Deadpool has strange continuity with the rest of the X-men. I don't think Negasonic Teenage Warhead has crossed over and Colossus was different in Deadpool.

There is still time to Retcon Dark Phoenix and new mutants though. Actually new mutants would be a decent launching point for MCU with reshoots and editing. You could easily retcon Captain America Civil war as the starting point of the Mutant Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_Acts_(comics)#Marvel_Cinematic_Universe

If I were to do an X-men I start it off just like the cartoon. With Jubilee getting swept up into the X-men. It would be kinda like a zombie apocalypse movie in that while there are no Zombies there is a ton of Television News coverage talking about new acts to "take care" of mutants. Or it could be modeled after a holocaust movie like Shindlers list.

[UncleBob]

300 km is LEO and is space. Depending on the organization 80-100 km will get you astronaut wings. The lowest orbiting satellite I remember off hand was GOCE at 255km to measure Earth's gravity. 480km is an arbitrary number you threw out of nowhere. This is why I find you so disingenuous as you throw out obvious lies as chaff.

Heterosphere.