Author Topic: Clones  (Read 13666 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Clones
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2007, 07:39:40 AM »
We're talking about Ganondorf, not Falcon...
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Clones
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2007, 07:41:00 AM »
The clone war has started again, my favorite debate topic in the UNIVERSE.
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Offline vudu

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RE:Clones
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2007, 07:48:09 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Clones will be absolutely unacceptable unless they're simply alt costumes with a slight physics variation (which is what the Melee clones were anyway). If they're given their own roster spots, then I swear to god, those fireants WILL be in the mail.
So you want Ganondorf to be an alternate costume for Captain Falcon?
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Clones
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 08:06:30 AM »
Ganondorf should be given a move set that actually makes sense for his character...
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Clones
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 08:10:47 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Ganondorf should be given a move set that actually makes sense for his character...


Bill beat me to it.

Falcondorf was such a joke because the moveset made absolutely no sense for his character. He would have made a better Samus clone, as charged projectiles are right up his alley.

I mean that in Brawl any character which is a clone should be an alt costume with some physics changes (if they choose to put them in). Sorry, I wasn't clear on that earlier.

I'd like to see the 'dorf back with a mix of magic and swordplay. Brawl only has one real "magic" user and that's Zelda.

On that note, this is why I want a Fire Emblem caster and/or Ashley.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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RE:Clones
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2007, 08:13:05 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Ganondorf should be given a move set that actually makes sense for his character...


Agreed, but even if he gets his old move set I'm not complaining. He was great in Melee and his play style was vastly different from Captain Falcon's.  
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Clones
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2007, 08:14:53 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
Agreed, but even if he gets his old move set I'm not complaining. He was great in Melee and his play style was vastly different from Captain Falcon's.


I'd complain, but I'm sure my complaints would be drowned out by the complaints of many, many others. Whisper on a scream, as it were.

If anything, Black Shadow should be a Falcon clone as he's at least a physical fighter type (at least he doesn't carry weapons like the 'dorf or Goroh).
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Offline vudu

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RE:Clones
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2007, 08:19:47 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I mean that in Brawl any character which is a clone should be an alt costume with some physics changes (if they choose to put them in). Sorry, I wasn't clear on that earlier.
I knew what you meant.  And my point stands; if your biggest concern in life is whether Falco is a Fox costume or has his own character slot on the menu you're a lucky man.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Clones
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2007, 08:23:51 AM »
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Originally posted by: vudu I knew what you meant.  And my point stands; if your biggest concern in life is whether Falco is a Fox costume or has his own character slot on the menu you're a lucky man.


I've reread my post three times now and I can't figure out how you're divining "the biggest concern in my life" being involved in anything even remotely related to what I've said here. You're either putting words in my mouth or turning what I said into a bizarre absolute.

I've joked about the fire ant thing many times before, if that's what you mean.  
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Clones
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2007, 08:28:28 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Ganondorf should be given a move set that actually makes sense for his character...


Agreed, but even if he gets his old move set I'm not complaining. He was great in Melee and his play style was vastly different from Captain Falcon's.


I'm sorry but one of the most interesting villains in the NIntendo universe should not share the same moveset with a F-Zero reject.  
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Offline Luigi Dude

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RE:Clones
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2007, 08:42:07 AM »
Oh god I've enter 2001 all over again.

Just because of all the hate the clones get I hope Brawl is full of them.  Just so I can see people b!tch endlessly about them again for the next 7 years.

Oh and Ganondorf will be his own character in this game, why does anyone even question this.  You can tell in Melee he was planned on being unique but they didn't have time.  Why else do you think he's holding a sword for one of his victory poses and in his official image.



This shows that when his official image was made, he was originally suppose to be a sword user, but as we all know time ran out and so the only way to get Ganondorf in was to base him off an existing character, or remove him like they did with Ditto and the Fire Emblem stage.  Because of this it is 100% obvisous that Ganondorf will infact be the character he was originally planed to be and there is no need to worry.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Clones
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2007, 08:49:54 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
Oh god I've enter 2001 all over again.

Just because of all the hate the clones get I hope Brawl is full of them.  Just so I can see people b!tch endlessly about them again for the next 7 years.


So wait, you don't want to be back in 2001 all over again because of the clone complaints but you still want clones in the game so there will...be clone complaints?
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline vudu

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RE:Clones
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2007, 08:51:14 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I've reread my post three times now and I can't figure out how you're divining "the biggest concern in my life" being involved in anything even remotely related to what I've said here. You're either putting words in my mouth or turning what I said into a bizarre absolute.
With all the time you and Pap have spent complaining about clones, you two could have created your own development house, assembled a team full of all-star programmers, secured the necessary funds, and programmed, tested, balanced, & released your own Smash Bros game.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:Clones
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2007, 11:07:13 AM »
I know I am considered one of the biggest clone haters around here so hear me out on this one. I personally don't mind the concept of clone characters that much since every single fighting game has at least one character that is a clone of another (Ken is perhaps the most famous clone character of all time and the MK series and the Namco 3D fighters are riddled with them). However, I HATE clones when...

1. They are used to easily expand a roster

2. They take the place of a much worthy character

3. When they don't make sense at all

Melee is guilty of all three. Its common fact that Melee was only going to feature 5 secret characters. But the team decided to add more characters to the list, but  there wasn't any time as Nintendo kept rushing them so they decided to take existing characters and make clones out of them. I know clone defenders keep saying that creating and balancing characters isn't easy and I agree. However, between making a brand new character and creating a clone based on an existing character its clear that making a clone is FAR easier. The clones were a product of a rushed development cycle because Nintendo NEEDED the game out by Christmas. So in all honesty, as weak as the 5 secret characters were I would've preferred to have the roster end there than to expand it with cheap characters.

Second, they should have used more worthy characters. Take a look at some of Brawl's newcomers; Wario, Pit and Metaknight. Fans wanted them playable way before Melee was announced so why didn't the team take some time to make them and make fans happy? I don't recall anyone saying "Gee, I sure hope Dr. Mario is a playable character!" or "Young Link should be in game, even though Link is already there!".

Finally, many of the clone characters didn't make sense AT ALL. I understand Falco and he was a good alternative to Fox's insane speed. Pichu, sure. Roy? I'm not a big fan but he was decent. But Dr. Mario? And Ganondorf a CAPTAIN FALCON clone?? With Dr. Mario that means there are THREE characters with the same moves. Luigi makes sense as a Mario clone since that's how he was always portrayed, but even they had the right idea of making him a little more unique. Dr. Mario should have been an alternate costume, PERIOD.

And Ganondorf...I don't need to explain it. He was his own character so it was VERY weird that they made him a Capt. Falcon clone. Same deal with Young Link.

So in short, I don't mind a couple of clones here and there as long as they make sense. However, when they take up half the roster and  they don't make sense THAT'S when I get angry...

Which is why I think Brawl will not have that many clone characters. With the team having more time to work on the game, the newcomers list being big (and likely to grow each day) and the many new characters that have been suggested it looks like Brawl's roster might be very varied and unique. So if they make a lot of clone characters once more then I'll second S_B's idea of mailing fire ants...
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:Clones
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2007, 11:07:18 AM »
Gah...stupid computer.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Clones
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2007, 12:57:41 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu With all the time you and Pap have spent complaining about clones, you two could have created your own development house, assembled a team full of all-star programmers, secured the necessary funds, and programmed, tested, balanced, & released your own Smash Bros game.


If only it were that simple...
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Crimm

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RE:Clones
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2007, 03:32:37 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu With all the time you and Pap have spent complaining about clones, you two could have created your own development house, assembled a team full of all-star programmers, secured the necessary funds, and programmed, tested, balanced, & released your own Smash Bros game.


If only it were that simple...


You also have to create a budget, blow that budget.  Create a release date, and then break it multiple times.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Clones
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM »
On the same note, I have absolutely zero expectation that Brawl will have clones.

It was rightfully delayed until February so Sakurai could have more time and as such it isn't suffering from the same issue of being rushed.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Luigi Dude

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RE:Clones
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2007, 06:58:38 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
On the same note, I have absolutely zero expectation that Brawl will have clones.

It was rightfully delayed until February so Sakurai could have more time and as such it isn't suffering from the same issue of being rushed.

Well it can still have clones but just for a different reason.  In Melee's case Sakurai and his team had set a goal to have around 25 characters and the only way to make that goal in the time Nintendo was allowing them was to base characters off of others.

Brawl on the other hand because of all the time it's had will probably make it's intended goal with all the characters the way they're originally planned.  But if the team has extra time I'm sure they will create some clones to throw in the game just for the hell of it.  If say Sakurai's goal for Brawl is to have 40 characters and they reach that goal, I could easily see them adding somewhere between 2 -5 clones just for some last minute characters that would have other wise not appeared at all.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Clones
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2007, 08:47:01 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
On the same note, I have absolutely zero expectation that Brawl will have clones.

It was rightfully delayed until February so Sakurai could have more time and as such it isn't suffering from the same issue of being rushed.

Well it can still have clones but just for a different reason.  In Melee's case Sakurai and his team had set a goal to have around 25 characters and the only way to make that goal in the time Nintendo was allowing them was to base characters off of others.

Brawl on the other hand because of all the time it's had will probably make it's intended goal with all the characters the way they're originally planned.  But if the team has extra time I'm sure they will create some clones to throw in the game just for the hell of it.  If say Sakurai's goal for Brawl is to have 40 characters and they reach that goal, I could easily see them adding somewhere between 2 -5 clones just for some last minute characters that would have other wise not appeared at all.


As I said before, if Sakurai and co can create the best game possible, and still have some time left over I will fully endorse clones. Honestly I have a good feeling that this may be the case considering Sakurai appears to have all the time he needs to create a stellar game.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:Clones
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2007, 04:56:16 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
On the same note, I have absolutely zero expectation that Brawl will have clones.

It was rightfully delayed until February so Sakurai could have more time and as such it isn't suffering from the same issue of being rushed.

Well it can still have clones but just for a different reason.  In Melee's case Sakurai and his team had set a goal to have around 25 characters and the only way to make that goal in the time Nintendo was allowing them was to base characters off of others.

Brawl on the other hand because of all the time it's had will probably make it's intended goal with all the characters the way they're originally planned.  But if the team has extra time I'm sure they will create some clones to throw in the game just for the hell of it.  If say Sakurai's goal for Brawl is to have 40 characters and they reach that goal, I could easily see them adding somewhere between 2 -5 clones just for some last minute characters that would have other wise not appeared at all.


Since you put it that way I have to agree. Clones in Brawl won't be that bad IF they have a great roster (which I'm betting anything it will).
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Offline Adrock

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RE: Clones
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2007, 08:22:57 AM »
Quote

pap64 wrote:
Since you put it that way I have to agree. Clones in Brawl won't be that bad IF they have a great roster (which I'm betting anything it will).

I said essentially the same thing in my very first post of this thread.

Just to recap and expand on my thoughts:
1. Clones = more characters which is always a good thing in my mind
2. Since there are more individual, unique newcomers along with (I'm expecting) the return of every original veteran, the roster is varied enough that including "clones" isn't artificially expanding the roster. The development team did a good job giving us plenty of characters to choose from so "clones" just give us eve more characters to choose from, especially characters who might've missed the cut.
3. In addition to changing certain attributes, altering a move or two could give the "clones" a more unique feel.
4. Alternate costumes > color palettes. These, too, could give us characters we wouldn't get otherwise (like Liquid Snake, though he could easily be a "clone" character or a newcomer).

Offline NWR_pap64

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RE: Clones
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2007, 08:38:19 AM »
You forgot to mention that the clones have to make sense. Like I said in my earlier post, Falco, Pichu and Luigi make sense since they were far to similar to the main character in their respective games. However, Dr. Mario could've easily worked as an alt costume for Mario while Ganondorf has both magical and weapon based attacks to choose from.

I still don't champion clone characters, but if they are used in the right way (as in extras to complement the roster rather than official characters used to easily expand the roster) I don't mind them that much.
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Clones
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2007, 08:57:07 AM »
I'll agree to that.  If there were a Bowser Jr. clone that played like Bowser but faster, that would be fine.  If Paula appears as a Clone to Lucas, I'd be fine with that too, Poo would work in that case, also.  I think Pichu was just a bad idea, though, and if there were to be a Pikachu evolution, I think a slower, more powerful Raichu would be appropriate.  The Fire Emblem characters weren't really different enough, IMO.  Young Link could have stood a few more changes, too.  But if it takes very little time to add in a clone character, say you cuold add five in the time it took to add one and maintain balance, I'm for losing one or two completely unique characters for a handful of clones, but only a few.

Offline IceCold

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RE: Clones
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2007, 11:14:13 AM »
Quote

I'm sorry but one of the most interesting villains in the NIntendo universe should not share the same moveset with a F-Zero reject.
Pshh.

F-Zero GX > any Zelda game
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