Author Topic: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!  (Read 4630 times)

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Offline dhowerter

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Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« on: November 30, 2006, 10:58:35 PM »
Hi.  Hopefully you can help me with this

I was reading a recent Nintendo World Report Mailbag (November 12ths)

when I came upon this letter and its response: (My question is right after the letter and my question is based on this letter/response)


"To PlanetGameCube:

Hello. I'm a huge DS fan, but the Wii is slowly but surely winning me over. I have a few questions about the sensor bar that I hope some of you might be able to answer.

I have very poor vision; I have to play my consoles about 2 feet from my TV to see them well enough to play them. I'm wondering what the range of the sensor bar will be, because I believe I heard it would be at least 3 feet, which would seriously affect me. And does the sensor bar need to be exactly above or below the TV? Also, could it be possible to set the sensor bar behind the TV instead of above or below it? That way I could put it behind it, centered, about 3 or 4 feet away from me, but I'm not sure if the TV's insides would mess with the reception. Or, I could put it below the TV, on top of a stand next to my Wii, and point at it below. Would that work?

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.



Answer:

During my playtime with Zelda, I did a quick sensor bar test. The minimum distance away from the sensor bar that you'll need to be to prevent any controller issues looks as if it's about 2½ or 3 feet. Any closer, and it looks like the remote loses track of one of the bar's IR points and goes haywire. That only applies to games that need the bar to point at stuff, though, so if you want to play Excite Truck, there's no need to point at it. In fact, you probably don't even need the sensor bar once the game starts.

There is no restriction on where you place the sensor bar, other than the remote must see it. It cannot be hidden from view because the controller's pointing tech uses an infrared signal. ***Other than that, you can put it on the floor, against a wall, on the ceiling; just make sure that you point at the bar instead of the television***, and there are no strong light sources in the direction which you intend on pointing."



MY QUESTION:

I am in somewhat the same boat as the person asking the question in that, because of space restrictions I can't change, when I will be sitting in front of my TV, the wiimote will be less than 2 feet from the sensor bar.
That is probably too close

SO then I looked at the part of the answer I surrounded by ***s and thought I might try putting the sensor bar on the CEILING (which is a nice range of 5 feet from where the wiimote would be when I'm sitting down) or on the FLOOR, like the answer above suggested.

Now here is the fun part, although I think that doing one of those would make the POINTER part of the wiimote work fine, I'm a bit worried about what it would do to the motion sensing parts of the wiimote.

For example, if I were to put the sensor bar on the ceiling, I would have to hold the wiimote basically pointing straight up (with the buttons facing me) instead of the normal horizontal position (with the buttons facing straight up).

Now with a game that, for example, relates the moving of the wiimote in the horizontal position FORWARD to say, engage a zoomed in scope view for shooting (Red Steel I think), that means if I'm holding the wiimote pointing towards the ceiling, I'd have to move the wiimote TOWARDS the ceiling to engage the same feature, correct?

BUT will that work since where gravity is pulling is different on my wiimote than on a wiimote in the normal horizontal position?   (on mine it would be pulling towards the back of the wiimote where the expansion connector is and in the horizontal position it would be puling towards the bottom where the battery compartment is)

If someone wanted to like temporarily stick their sensor bar to the celing to test this and make sure the motion sensitive moves work right while aiming the wiimote towards the celing, I'd be very grateful :-D (or heck maybe you could just get someone to hold it above you while you use the wiimote below it).

But in any case, anybody have a answer (or at least a educated guess)?


.

Offline D_MaN87

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2006, 12:33:39 AM »
Im not sure about the ceiling, BUT, i have really bad eyes, and SHOULD be (but not) wearing glasses.  I have my sensor bar below my tv, and I sit no more then a foot or two away, and with the right adjustments in the wii menu it works fine.  Games ive played that work good this way are Red Steel, Zelda, Wii Sports, and Need for Speed Carbon
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 01:23:45 AM »
I'm pretty sure you guys have bad eyesight because you sit entirely too close to the television.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Svevan

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2006, 08:19:41 AM »
This will vary. Red Steel's zooming will most likely require you to move the controller towards the sensor bar, not the tv. But Trauma Center's defibrillators may well require you to move the remote and nunchuk towards the TV, and not the sensor bar. The reason is that Red Steel's zooming takes place in direct collaboration with the direct pointing (which is the only thing the sensor bar handles) whereas Trauma Center's defibrillators just require forward backward movement with no direct pointing involved. Another game that uses vertical movement but no direct pointing is Wii Sports Boxing. Feel free to face any direction you want while boxing, your character will always punch forward. Same goes for Golf - golf backwards if you want! The sensor bar won't play into any of the sports games actually, so facing the TV or the sensor bar is not mandatory.

I haven't tested this in Red Steel though, and if I get the chance I will let you know.
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Offline SixthAngel

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2006, 08:45:09 AM »
The more I play the Wii the more how the pointer function works confuses me.  The Wii not only has a way to tell where I am pointing but it can tell how small the playing screen is somehow.  When I brought my game into picture and picture mode I had to aim at the tiny screen in the bottom corner.  The thing really is awesome.   Setting up the sensor bar on the ceiling would make you lose the fact that you are actually pointing at that part of the screen.  I suggest you try to find a way to set it behind the tv to not lose this cool function.

Offline RiskyChris

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2006, 08:54:33 AM »
You can put the sensor bar anywhere you want.  The only time you need to point at it is for pointer functions.

I'm considering putting my sensor bar way off to the right (about 60 degrees to my right) so I can slouch more while I play.

Offline dhowerter

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 05:41:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: D_MaN87
Im not sure about the ceiling, BUT, i have really bad eyes, and SHOULD be (but not) wearing glasses.  I have my sensor bar below my tv, and I sit no more then a foot or two away, and with the right adjustments in the wii menu it works fine.  Games ive played that work good this way are Red Steel, Zelda, Wii Sports, and Need for Speed Carbon


Hmm interesting. What exactly are the "right adjustments", just so I know ?

You adjust the Sensor Bar Sensitivity right? What number do you put it on?

Any other specific "right adjustments"?

.

Offline dhowerter

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 05:57:34 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
This will vary. Red Steel's zooming will most likely require you to move the controller towards the sensor bar, not the tv. But Trauma Center's defibrillators may well require you to move the remote and nunchuk towards the TV, and not the sensor bar. The reason is that Red Steel's zooming takes place in direct collaboration with the direct pointing (which is the only thing the sensor bar handles) whereas Trauma Center's defibrillators just require forward backward movement with no direct pointing involved. Another game that uses vertical movement but no direct pointing is Wii Sports Boxing. Feel free to face any direction you want while boxing, your character will always punch forward. Same goes for Golf - golf backwards if you want! The sensor bar won't play into any of the sports games actually, so facing the TV or the sensor bar is not mandatory.

I haven't tested this in Red Steel though, and if I get the chance I will let you know.




BTW, to clarify here when you say move the controller towards the TV, you mean holding it normally/horizontally and pushing towards the tv yes? and also, when you say Red Steel's zooming would have you move the controller (which is now vertical and pointing UP towards the ceiling /sesnor bar), you mean pushing towards the ceiling, yes?

Heh I understand your Red Steel zooming / Trauma Center defribilator example, but I think you misunderstood me slightly. If I'm supposed to move the controller forward (towards were the Infrared sensor is on the wiimote) for red steel, you say towards the sensor bar on the ceiling. I understood that

BUT if you still had the wiimote (and presumably the nunchuck too) oriented 90 degrees BACK (wiimote aiming at ceiling/sensor bar and front of nunchuk - where the C and Z buttons are - also aiming at CEILING - I would assume if you're using them together they better be oriented the same way then pushing tem forward and backward for the defibrilator , well would that not ALSO result in them being pushed toward the ceiling, then towards the floor, towards the ceiling ,etc.?

And of course would THAT ^^ work?  (and don't forget to test red steel too

Offline dhowerter

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 04:05:47 PM »
Bump because I really need to know -_-

 

Offline Svevan

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 09:01:05 PM »
One, your last post was nigh unintelligible - what exactly were you asking?

Two, I don't have the means to tape a Sensor Bar to my high ceiling....today. But I may later.
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Offline RickPowers

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 06:23:18 AM »
Just because it hasn't been clearly articulated yet ...

The motion sensing is done in the controllers, not the sensor bar.  Anything that requires use of the accellerometers in the controllers will work fine regardless of sensor bar placement.

The IR Receiver in the Wiimote is the only thing that requires the sensor bar.  As a result, as long as you can see the sensor bar from some location, you can aim the Wiimote at the sensor bar rather than the TV.  It will feel strange, but it will work.  So for example, if you were to mount the sensor bar above your TV on the wall, that might give you enough distance without drastically altering the play experience.

Alternatively ... you could build your own IR emitters that are closer together, which will make the Wii seem like you're playing from a further distance than you really are (because the distance between the two emitters is how the Wiimote senses depth).   Then you could put them right by your TV and you'd be fine.

There's really no magic in this ... I wish Nintendo wouldn't obscure the technology to make it seem like it's "magic" when it's not all that advanced.  In fact, they'd have some pretty cool options if they'd open it up a bit more.
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Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2006, 09:03:23 AM »
fun anecdote:-- I was folding laundry at my kitchen table, my Wii is located two rooms away.. I felt some rumbling in my controller and realized that I was actually still directly controlling the pointer in the Wii menu... and im talkng about a distance of over 25 feet without direct line of sight of the TV/sensor bar!

I'll draw a quick picture later tonight, but I was pointing at a reflection of my TV on a pair of glass doors in my living room.. crazy!
I'll shut up now...

Offline dhowerter

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2006, 09:32:16 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
One, your last post was nigh unintelligible - what exactly were you asking?

Two, I don't have the means to tape a Sensor Bar to my high ceiling....today. But I may later.



Heh. Wel, I'll try to clarify a bit

lets see..

First, forget COMPETELY about the sensor bar and the pointing function for a second and just focus SOLELY on the wiimote's and nunchuck's motion sensitivity.

Basically, my main worry is that if the wiimote or nunchuck's motion sensitivity is dependant at all upon GRAVITY to work correctly, then by aiming both straight up towards the ceiling instead of their normal positions, where gravity is pulling in a different direction and the motion sensitivity simply may not work right (example: the defibrilators in trauma center with a forward/backward motion or heck even the punching forward/backward in Wii sports boxing)

to be even more clear, wiimote in normal position (position A) =      oIIIIIIIII       vs.

wiimote in my "aiming straight up position" =  

                                                                          o       (position B)
                                                                         | |
                                                                         | |
                                                                         | |
                                                                         ---
Forgive my terrible ascii art of the wiimote (btw, for orientation purposes the o = the IR sensor on front of the wiimote)

Obviously, in position A gravity is pulling downwards towards the bottom of the wiimote (where the battery compartment is) and in position B gravity is pulling towards the BACK of the wiimote (where the extension connector is )

I'm just worried that the difference in the direction gravity is pulling when using position B will screw up the acelerometers inside the wiimote and thus any motion sensing controls in games (again like the defibrilators in Trauma center) won't work right.

Do you understand my question now? :-)
   

Offline Svevan

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2006, 06:39:16 PM »
So I did some tests (none with Red Steel, I don't own a copy).

First off, I was completely wrong about Trauma Center. The defibrillators do rely on the direct pointing because they are sensing depth. That means that to push the defibrillators towards the patient, you have to push the remote and nunchuk towards your sensor bar, wherever it is. So that doesn't answer our question.

Then I tried Wii Sports Boxing. Certainly I can face any direction I want (I tried boxing backwards with a mirror) and my punches will still go. But I can't, for instance, lie down and punch towards the ceiling to box, no matter where my sensor bar is. It doesn't make any sense to do it. Here's the issue: the motion sensing for the position of my hands somehow DOES know whether I'm holding the controllers parallel to the ground or parallel to my television. That means gravity is involved somehow (gyroscopes? accelerometers? I don't know what these things do). So that means yeah, sword fighting in Red Steel would be quite iffy if your sensor bar is on the ceiling and you desire to hold your remote and nunchuk in an upward position. I think you would have to switch hand positions between sword fighting and gunning (although sword fighting may use direct pointing as well, I haven't had enough playtime to verify that).

In short, find a way to put your sensor bar on your TV. Wear glasses or contacts to fix your farsightedness. If you want to put your sensor bar to the right of your television and a few feet behind it, you can do that, but I don't think you'll get any luck when you move it vertically. Your hands will simply be in the wrong position to play most of these games.
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Offline IceCold

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2006, 07:28:23 PM »
Well, WiiSports doesn't use the sensor bar at all, so it doesn't matter where it is. I don't think Red Steel uses it for sword fights either, so it really shouldn't be a problem. The only time you'd need to point at it is when you're aiming, right?
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Offline Svevan

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2006, 07:46:47 PM »
His question was whether he could continue to point the Remote and Nunchuk at his oddly placed Sensor Bar when he WASN'T direct pointing. The answer is no, at least based on Wii Sports Boxing. The motion sensing (even without direct pointing, meaning without the sensor bar) is meant to be used in generally one position.
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Offline RickPowers

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2006, 12:22:24 PM »
Actually, Trauma Center doesn't use depth detection for the difib sequences.  It's pure motion detection (the first clue is that you use both controllers, the second is that the Wiimote is pointing UP).  There's another section that MAY use the depth sensing (the electrical pins in the bomb sequence), but I doubt it.

Playing at a constant angle shouldn't be too much of a problem unless the angle is pretty severe.  The accellerometers do use gravity to do their jobs.  If that's going to be a problem, I'd highly recommend either making changes to your play environment, or finding someone skilled with basic electronics that would be willing to custom make some IR emitters for you.
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Offline Svevan

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 01:06:05 PM »
Rick, with regards to the defibrillators: you're wrong. Go try it, right now. I figured the same thing, but as it turns out the game is only sensing the remote, not the remote and nunchuk. Your chuk could be completely still while moving the remote forward, and it'll work. It's not motion sensing at all.

Custom IR Emitters FTW, though - if you can, dhowerter, rig up something like that post haste.
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Offline dhowerter

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RE:Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2006, 05:08:53 PM »
Svevan  / ALL -

Well that clears that up

OK then, I thought of another possible solution to my sensor bar problem:



I found this pic of the INSIDE of the sensor bar:

http://www.informit.com/content/images/art_fogie_insidewii/elementLinks/wiifig26.jpg


Now, I've read elsewhere that the reasons the wiimote goes nuts when you get it too close to the sensor bar (and you're using the pointing function) is that the wiimote (which acts kinda as a infrared camera) loses track of one of the two sets of Infrared LEDs you can see on each side of the sensor bar. (You are so close it can only see one of them I believe)

Thus my question:

If you were to disassemble the sensor bar and take OUT the wire/ two sets of Infrared LEDS and then place them on your TV normally BUT put them CLOSER TOGETHER, might that let the wiimote with the pointing function work at a closer range than if the sensor bar was used normally?

 

Offline Svevan

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RE: Sensor Bar Question - PLEASE Help!
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2006, 05:38:48 PM »
Theoretically, yes. So long as you don't screw up the whole shebang. Also, it's been proven that custom IR emitters can be made out of candles in a dark dark room, and TV remotes. Some technical knowhow (and a soldering iron) could make you something ugly, but functional.
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