Author Topic: Nintendo DS multi-catridge: With 4 megs!? (Read 6607 times)

Edfishy · « **on:** November 17, 2004, 08:09:36 AM »

http://ds.ign.com/articles/566/566611p1.html

Grr... Why!? *sniffles*... I had really hoped we could transfer the entire multiplayer side of a game to friends, so they wouldn't need to purchase the game when you wanted to play with each other. But what the bloody heck could you transfer when you have 4 megabytes to work with? Not very much. Nothing more than stripped down multiplayer demos.

*sighs*... Oh well... Perhaps the expansion slot on the DS will allow for an "expansion pack" to allow more room for multi-cartridge games, or maybe they'll be able to heavily compress the files... It would have been great if there was a ready 128 megabytes for multi-cartridge usage, and the function was pre-built into the DS, so all it took for a developer was to select which files to transfer, and whalla. But now I am feeling we'll have a repeat of the GBA, where only 12-15 games in the Nintendo DS's lifespan will support the feature.

Please inform me if I am wrong, because this is certainly going to delay my purchasing a DS for a while.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2004, 08:19:13 AM »

So much like the GBA the one cart multiplayer is going to be pretty lame? Well it's not that surprising and realistically I don't think it's a high enough priority for Nintendo to up the RAM (and thus the cost of the whole system itself) just for this. However I do wish Nintendo was more up front about this before. With the GBA they acted like ALL games would use this and they acted like that again when they showed us the DS. Just say up front that the feature is limited.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2004, 08:29:33 AM »

Stop being a cheapskate...And geez, 4 MB is a lot more than the 256kb that was set aside for the GBA...It won't be nearly as limited as GBA single-pak was...

Spak-Spang · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2004, 08:44:46 AM »

4Megs can be used in a couple of ways, and besides that it won't take long for developers to get the most out of that 4megs, and find interesting ways around the 4Meg limit.

Edfishy · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2004, 09:15:30 AM »

My point exactly. Companies will now need to devote extra money and effort just to figure out how to get this feature to work approprietly. If the feature was setup to where it was point and click to set it up, we'd see every title with the feature. I have a feeling we'll only see it on Nintendo titles.

As for the 4 megs, that's hardly enough memory to store an SNES game. Let alone the large amounts of code and the rich textures that the DS is capable of. This means, sure, you could probably transfer a demo that looks fairly decent, but not unlike the F-Zero:Maximum Velocity demo for the GBA, it would be stripped to one track, no music, and everybody using the same racer.

I'd gladly pay an extra $35-$50 for my DS so that my friends wouldnt have to. It's all about effort. If the DS allowed a full cartridge's amount to be transferred, and just about every DS game supported it, you wouldnt need to beg your friend to get a $35 game so you could play together every week or so.

Why this really burns me up, is that I have five siblings, and was just extatic about the possibillity of playing four-player Metroid Hunters without having to dish out the cash for each DS to have the same game. The idea was intriguing, since it would be exactly like playing on a console. You don't pay $35 per player just to play a four-player game on a console. It's just standard that up to four players can play without having to pay. I only wish this could be carried over to handhelds.

vudu · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2004, 09:27:17 AM »

What incentive do developers have to create single cart multiplayer? If anything, it's only going to help them sell less games.

Even if the 4 meg limit wasn't an issue, I doubt many developers would want to impliment a full-blown single cart multiplayer. You'll most likely be able to use a limited multiplayer with a few small maps, not as many options, and only a few characters. Then, if you like what it has to offer, get your friend to buy the game. Think of it as a shareware version of multiplayer.

Like Bill said, stop being a cheapskate. If you want to play LAN/online games everyone needs a copy of the game. Why should handhelds be any different?

Ian Sane · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2004, 10:00:33 AM »

"If you want to play LAN/online games everyone needs a copy of the game. Why should handhelds be any different?"

Well having multiple copies makes sense for racing game or first person shooters since they work best when each player has his own screen. However there were games made for the GBA that had no use for two seperate screens. Side scrolling beat-em-ups and fighters only use one one screen for multiplayer for example so having to buy two copies is annoying because if the exact same game was released on a console you would only need one. While I doubt the DS can do this it would be nice if they made a portable where there's an option to play multiplayer on one screen. It would be awkward in that you have to look over one guy's shoulder but it would a good way to get one cart multiplayer on titles that don't need multiple screens.

Edfishy · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2004, 10:38:08 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: kingvudu

Like Bill said, stop being a cheapskate. If you want to play LAN/online games everyone needs a copy of the game. Why should handhelds be any different?

Because it was my assumption that Nintendo was attempting to break the handhelds out of their current rut of being simply arcade games while you're on the road. As I said, most console games featuring multiplayer support four-player split screen. The DS was to my understanding going to bring to us what we always wanted: Four players, each with their own screen. A console has the tether of requiring all four players to be playing off of a friend's console & game, why should a handheld be any different?

If your excuse is merely that PC games require one copy of a game per person for a LAN game, than you are very much mistaken. Up until recently, a PC game could legally be installed onto multiple computers so you could have your friends all play in a LAN game without them needing to buy the game. No CD burning was necessary, just install the game, and use the CD once on bootup.

Spak-Spang · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2004, 11:11:26 AM »

You also make it seem that 4 Megs is the same 4 Megs constantly.

Why couldn't they design the game to create 2 Megs on basic game, and what level and characters you pick the DS will send that next information to the computer for the other 2 Megs.

There are ways for this to work and work well.

And for those simple gamer games that aren't racers, first person shooters.

The Beat'm Ups, and Sidescrollers, and whatnot that is EXACTLY how they will do it.

2Megs for or so for basic code and 1Meg for graphics needed or level and 1 Meg to send music and sound effects for that level. (Of course these aren't exact numbers I am just saying how it could be done.)

God Speaks · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2004, 11:36:23 AM »

This is news? It's been known for quite a while now that the DS would only have 4MB of buffer to store cartridge data. It's not as bad as it sounds because DS games need to be read into memory anyway before you can use it, unlike the GBA.

Chongman · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2004, 11:38:57 AM »

Ian Sane...i keep getting the impression that you're the cynic of these boards :-P.

Anyhow, we haven't heard any negative news about multiplayer limitations from people who have tried it out with some of the launch games...so perhaps it isn't too small afterall. In any case, we'll just have to wait and see. I definitely wouldn't shrug the entire multiplayer feature off like you guys seem to be doing

Switchblade Cross · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2004, 12:43:13 PM »

I really dont think that 4Mb is that little. I mean, thats 15 times the about if the GBA single cart transfer. It's also only 1/4 the size of the largest SNES game. Come on, Mario DS and Ridge Racer can transfer their complete multiplayer mode, while Mr. Driller requires 2 cards! I think this whole thing will be less an issue regarding not having enough space to put the game in, and more about the effort put forth by developer...

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
You also make it seem that 4 Megs is the same 4 Megs constantly.

See, the developers can only transfer 4Mb. Thats 4Mb at a time though! They can make the full mode available and instead of trying to transfer everything at once, only send the levels and info that is neede before each match, and then clear that space for new information when a new round beings. This easily maks 4megs seem like a lot more...

Switchblade Cross · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2004, 12:44:21 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
...While I doubt the DS can do this it would be nice if they made a portable where there's an option to play multiplayer on one screen. It would be awkward in that you have to look over one guy's shoulder but it would a good way to get one cart multiplayer on titles that don't need multiple screens.

SEGA Nomad man...

Polyethylene · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2004, 12:54:01 PM »

4 megs is good enough, i mean, metroid hunters have multiplayer and is so far the game with the best graphics on the DS.

And developers don't have to transfer all the game or all the multiplayer part of the games, that's not the way it works.

There will be developers that won't use this feature but they will be the lazy ones or the ones that want you to buy your own copy.

So far all the Nintendo multiplayer games have this feature so what's the deal.

ruby_onix · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:06:58 PM »

If single-cart multiplayer games are going to suck because there's only 4 megs of RAM, wouldn't that mean that every single DS game is going to be just as bad?

If anything, the single-cart DS multiplayer games might have more loading times than regular DS games, because they have to load the game from the wireless connection, not the cart.

IIRC, the PlayStation only had 2 or 3 megs of RAM at it's disposal.

Jdub03 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:23:12 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onix
If single-cart multiplayer games are going to suck because there's only 4 megs of RAM, wouldn't that mean that every single DS game is going to be just as bad?

If anything, the single-cart DS multiplayer games might have more loading times than regular DS games, because they have to load the game from the wireless connection, not the cart.

IIRC, the PlayStation only had 2 or 3 megs of RAM at it's disposal.

Really, how much did the n64 have?

Edit: I looked it up and i believe the n64 has 4megs, the psx has 2megs, and the n64 with expansion pack has 8megs. I wonder could they increase the DS ram to 8 just like n64.

Edfishy · « **Reply #16 on:** November 18, 2004, 11:09:05 AM »

I really do hope you all are right, as it will be a big bummer if this revolutionary abillity goes completely unused in the next few years.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #17 on:** November 18, 2004, 11:30:11 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Jdub03
I wonder could they increase the DS ram to 8 just like n64.

GBA port

MattVDB · « **Reply #18 on:** November 18, 2004, 11:38:59 AM »

Wasn't Mario64 in its entirety 4 megs? If you can fit that much game into that much space, I am not worried about space for developers. 4 megs compared to consoles sucks, but 4 megs compared to the system at hand isn't too shabby.

ruby_onix · « **Reply #19 on:** November 18, 2004, 12:48:58 PM »

Quote
Wasn't Mario64 in its entirety 4 megs?

Yeah, you're right. All of this talk of "megs" had me thinking that the DS had 4 megabits of RAM, when actually it has 4 megabytes of RAM (as far as we know).

Mario 64 was on a "32 megabit" cart, which translates into 4 megabytes.

These first-generation DS cards are "1 gigabit", which translates into 128 megabytes, FYI.

TheYoungerPlumber · « **Reply #20 on:** November 18, 2004, 12:49:31 PM »

Quote
See, the developers can only transfer 4Mb. Thats 4Mb at a time though! They can make the full mode available and instead of trying to transfer everything at once, only send the levels and info that is neede before each match, and then clear that space for new information when a new round beings. This easily maks 4megs seem like a lot more...

Exactly. 4 MB (That's Megabytes, not Megabits, sir) is a considerable amount of space for a DS game. If you think he's just making up stuff, think back to the GBA. Case in point: have you played Mario Kart: Super Circuit on the GBA with one cart multiplayer? The game downloads one track at a time.

Well, I find it hard to believe the DS couldn't 'swap out info' in a similar fashion. With a 11 Mbps connection available, I'd imagine doing so would be fairly painless. There are 32 Megabits of RAM in the DS (4MB * 8 Mb/MB), making for roughly 3 seconds of data transfer at a time (though setting up the transfer will take time too I suppose).

How easy is wireless data hot-swapping on the Nintendo DS? I have no friggin idea, but I'm sure it is possible, and probably easier to do than on the GBA. I hope Nintendo provided tools for this in the development kit, but they probably didn't. Even so, 4 MB should be enough for a decent multiplayer game, especially if that game is 2D.

Oh, and Matt, Mario 64 was 64 Megabits = 8 Megabytes, twice the size of Nintendo DS's RAM. 4 MB for a handheld isn't shabby, but people keep eyeing the PSP with its 32 MB (much of which is needed b/c it is a disc-based system, but still).

Edfishy · « **Reply #21 on:** November 18, 2004, 12:50:50 PM »

Hm. That does strike a good point. I didnt even think about the Ram and what it did(stupid me). I some reason assumed that all of the data was read off of the cartridge while the game was running. I guess I am too used to working with PC's.

MattVDB · « **Reply #22 on:** November 18, 2004, 12:59:15 PM »

Either way. 8 MB or 4MB. I don't care. It will be plenty enough for _most_ multiplayer games. I can forsee limits and all, and that is to be expected. It is even reasonable to see a company not put in every multiplayer feature deliberately. Think Perfect Dark. While you could play it without the Ram pack, the Ram pack unlocked most of the game. On one hand, compared to consoles, it sucks that you have to buy multiple copies (so most games should include at least a limited multi) but it makes sense for the company to not include every feature of the game for 15 other people who didn't buy the game. Think of it: If Halo2 required only 1 copy for a 16 player match, think of how much money they would have lost. They would have AT LEAST lost 150 dollars in sales, and up to 750. This is a lot. (I realize it is console to handheld, but the comparison still remains)

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Author Topic: Nintendo DS multi-catridge: With 4 megs!? (Read 6607 times)