Author Topic: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card  (Read 46935 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE:GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #300 on: January 17, 2004, 04:14:44 PM »
I just want to chime in on this PC-console complexity issue.  Although there are exceptions all around, I definitely think that PC games tend to be more complex, while console games tend to be simpler.  And that's why I personally prefer console games, and that's why some people prefer PC games.  It's why games that traditionally require complex interfaces, like flight simulators and real-time strategy games, remain mostly in the PC market.  It's very hard to bring these experiences to a console controller.  At the same time, a game like Kirby's Air Ride (to use an extreme example) makes far more sense on the consoles.  All you need is a joystick and one button to play it.  Sure, many PC gamers have special joysticks and controllers, but the only interface a developer can be sure of is keyboard and mouse.  Being that both are highly complex interface devices with dozens of possible inputs, it makes sense that gamers like me prefer to use a simple console controller for games that don't need 20+ buttons to play.

There's a difference between "simpler" and "dumbed down".  No reason to throw spin and connotations all over your words.  I'd love to see some real debate about the proper level of complexity in a modern game, especially in light of Iwata-san's recent comments.
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Offline oohhboy

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RE: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #301 on: January 17, 2004, 05:04:41 PM »
Hey SearanoX, you haven't played the original Marathon series haven't you? The Marathon series is a Sequal/prequal (?) to Halo. That game had more weapons, more unquie weapons, way thicker stroy line, puzzels, more different types of enemies, real secondry functions on all weapons.

Sure the game had about the same level of graphics as say Duke Nukem 3d. But Halo was a step back most of the way. Even now it remains an uncomplete game. Half-life had a greater number of varying evenviroments, more weapons, secondries, better atmosphere. The only thing that Halo has over any of these two games is quick genade, melee, vehicles and better GFX. The AI is nothing special as most of those things have already been done back on the PSX in MOH. Also the lack of options in Halo Multiplayer is unaccpetable. If it was really more multiplayer oriented, it should have more options, bots to fill in the gaps and seeing how the "AI" was so good, it should have been included.

Halo was not revolutionary, evolutionary at best and in no way deserving of all the hype it got. An unfinished game.
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Offline CaseyRyback

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RE:GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #302 on: January 17, 2004, 08:14:13 PM »
I prefer first and third person shooters on PC because kb/m is still the most precise controls when it comes to playing these type of games. It makes these types of games easier since scrolling through weapons or commanding a squad become more fluid by eliminating in game menu's.

I wish more companies would be like SEGA and release an official first party keyboard and mouse. It would be the only way I would ever get back into Xbox Live.

Offline SearanoX

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RE:GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #303 on: January 18, 2004, 04:08:12 AM »
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Hey SearanoX, you haven't played the original Marathon series haven't you? The Marathon series is a Sequal/prequal (?) to Halo. That game had more weapons, more unquie weapons, way thicker stroy line, puzzels, more different types of enemies, real secondry functions on all weapons.


While I've heard of it, I haven't played it...yet.  I hear that it was quite good.  It wasn't really a prequel/prequel, though.  I assume you're referring to it as you would refer to Perfect Dark being a sequel to Goldeneye.  When it comes to things, more weapons, more enemies, etc., that isn't necessarily better.  A game can be packed full of all of those things, but what Halo has over it is one thing - balance.  Halo's enemies, weapons, etc. all serve a purpose.  There is absolutely no weapon that is useless, or obsolete.  The Pistol, for instance, can be the best weapon in the game, while the Needler is good at taking out Elites and attacking from around corners.

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Sure the game had about the same level of graphics as say Duke Nukem 3d. But Halo was a step back most of the way. Even now it remains an uncomplete game. Half-life had a greater number of varying evenviroments, more weapons, secondries, better atmosphere. The only thing that Halo has over any of these two games is quick genade, melee, vehicles and better GFX. The AI is nothing special as most of those things have already been done back on the PSX in MOH. Also the lack of options in Halo Multiplayer is unaccpetable. If it was really more multiplayer oriented, it should have more options, bots to fill in the gaps and seeing how the "AI" was so good, it should have been included.


I'm an avid Half-Life fan, so I know how good the game is, but on a technical level, it doesn't compare.  AI is nowhere near as good, but it makes up for it in puzzle solving, action, atmosphere, etc..  However, Halo does do all of these things better.

First, let's look at the environments - you claim that there isn't enough variety...hello?  Have you played the game?  Look at The Pillar of Autumn, and then compare it to say, what you see on the Halo mission.  We go from small, cramped quarters to huge mountainous areas where vehicle is nearly the only way to get around efficiently.  Not to mention of course the huge structures and underground installations that can be found - all of it looking significantly un-human.  Next, we go to Truth and Reconciliation, where the mission takes place during the night in a rocky, mountainous area.  Flashlights, night vision, and stealth are all quite integral in the beginning of this one.  When we get to the latter half, aboard the Covenant ship, it changes into a purple-blue-green, technological wonder.  Hallways are blinking with lights, holograms are everywhere, floors are tiled in intricate ways.  Now, we get to the Silent Cartographer and it's coastal setting.  It features both interior and exterior areas.  The exterior areas are great, with the sun beaming down, huge pieces of an installation protruding out from the rock, and the water lapping along the beach.  Compare that now to Assault on the Control Room, which features some interior environments that follow The Silent Cartographer's style, but also huge outdoor areas filled with snow.

I'll stop there.  You see my point when it comes to lacking variety.  I know what you're going to argue back, though - that everything is the same in style.  All of the Covenant stuff, Forerunner, and Human...they all stick to the same distinct looks.  Tell me exactly what's wrong with that?  Using a setup like this, you can always tell exactly who built something, who is occupying it, and what has happened there in the past.  It's quite common for things made by a particular ethnic group, people, etc. to have their own consistent theme.  Were you to argue that, it'd be the same as claiming that Africa lacks variety because everyone there lives in mud huts (more or less, let's not get into specifics).

Now, if you're going to argue at the reuse of levels, you can, because I'll admit that they are reused, but not to a huge extent.  In fact, only two of them are reused in any way, and they all feature massive changes.  Take Two Betrayals.  Not only is the time of day different, there are enemies battling throughout the area.  There are many new areas which could not previously be accessed as well.  Now, let's look at The Maw.  It features the same style as the original Pillar of Autumn mission, but is also vastly different.  The ship is quite destroyed, with sand and dust caking many of the surfaces.  Nearly half of the thing is destroyed as well.  In addition, there are also tons of new areas.

You claim the AI in Medal of Honor is so great?  I've played a few of those games, and it isn't.  Nearly every single thing in the entire game is scripted, including how the enemies react, how they move, etc..  Halo, on the other hand, features some of the best AI seen in a game.  You ever played Legendary mode?  It's damn hard.  And they don't make it hard by increasing damage enemies take and making you take more damage - no, they do it by improving the artificial intelligence.  If you think that Normal is somewhat difficult, you haven't seen anything.  Enemies outflank, create distractions, dodge, run away, seek backup, wait in ambush, charge, and more.  I didn't see anything like that in Medal of Honor, and when I did, most of the time, it was either a coincidence or a scripted behaviour.

AI in multiplayer - they could have done it, most likely, but not only would the game have most likely slowed to a crawl with people + bots, but it would have also most likely taken quite a bit of time to implement it.  After all, the AI would have to be completely different than what is in the game right now.  In the single player game, enemies wait for you, generally.  They don't go around looking for you, using vehicles, etc..  They don't need to.  Because the way the game works, it's unnecessary.  Now, if they had implemented AI, it most likely wouldn't have been good due to time constraints.  It would also put lots of strain on the CPU of the machine - one that is already greatly burdened with four other players.  Look at Perfect Dark - the framerate with Simulants was awful, no matter how good they were.  Now, to offset this, you could either reduce the CPU power that the AI characters require, but would also mean having the AI making less decisions at a time, resulting in stupider enemies.

As for the melee attack - it speaks for itself.  I consider it to be a revolutionary feature.  It's one of the most useful tools in the game - being able to sneak up behind an enemy, hear the satisfying thunk of your Pistol butt on the back of their head, and watch them sink to the ground without a sound is one of the best things about the game.  It really adds a lot to it.  Now you don't have to use bullets for everything, and wake up the entire neighbourhood.  Sure, games have had an unarmed attack in the past before, as well as melee attacks with guns, but they have never, ever been as useful or as fun as they are in Halo.

Vehicles?  They're pretty revolutionary-seeming to me.  After all, there's no other game that really has them so well implemented.  The game literally switches from an FPS to a vehicular combat game in no time at all.  Not only that, but the way they handle, as well as how each one has it's own strengths and weaknesses make them quite revolutionary indeed.
   
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Halo was not revolutionary, evolutionary at best and in no way deserving of all the hype it got. An unfinished game.


While I agree that some things weren't perfect about the game, it was certainly not unfinished.  It was finished.  In the sense you're referring to, in that it could have been better had they had more time, well, that's the same for every other single game ever developed.  Wind Waker?  Yeah, they had to cut significant portions from the game for that one.  What about Half-Life?  Even VALVe has admitted to it being not as good as they intended.  They had wanted to do so much more to the game, but couldn't due to technology limitations.

Really, even though there were some things that the game doesn't do perfectly doesn't stop it from being one kickass and original game.  

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #304 on: January 18, 2004, 08:04:19 PM »
Errrr... Battlefield has vehicles and those were not stolen from Halo, they were taken from Codename: Eagle (I think that's its name), the previous game DICE developed. So, in effect, Codename: Eagle had vehicles before Halo had. The discussion about the game sounds like it was a LOT of fun in multiplayer.

Offline oohhboy

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RE: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card
« Reply #305 on: January 19, 2004, 03:23:01 AM »
The Sequal/Prequal thing is more than a GE to PD thing. A little less than a direct sequal/prequal as it doesn't link directy with the marathon series story line, but the entire space opera was taken from it. Chiefs design, general naming of the levels, the ememies, the AI construt idea, the design of the friendlies that fight with you, the rocket launcher, the chief's shields, crashed ship(one in every Marathon game). I find it is probaly a prequal to the Marathon series due to the fact that it does not have any of the other weapons found in the series like the fusion pistol/rifle, assult rifle with attached genade launcher, dual sawn-off shot guns.

Melee attack, though welcome, becomes mostly unusable after invading the convent cruiser the first time.

Human artitechture, Convent, outdoors and halos buildings. A total of four different enviroments. The ship you arrive on is nicely details with the armory and the mess hall and what not you find on a ship with the damaged variant already aparent before you even leave the ship. Outdoors, generally a North American look to it, nice and big with a snow variation to it. Covent, gravity lift, hallways, hanger, more hall ways, bridge, more hall ways, prison cells then more hall ways that mostly link back to the hanger. great stuff there with the hallways. Halo's native buildings, concrete, plenty of hallways, open rooms with no identifyable funtion or tactical sense, copied and past rooms. In general, no detail. Besides the human ship, tere arn't any texts or culture detail or alein signs saying bridge readable or not. A couple of holograms you mentioned on the convent cruiser in the hallway. Just no detail.

AI in multiplayer, I had a blast playing PD with four players and max AI. Sure there were slow downs, but your saying the the Xbox doesn't have the power to run AI in multiplayer even though it has atleast a dozen ememy and friendly running about killing each other running this super AI it has? How about those face huging things that come in swarms that come? What about the lack of options?

The weapons in Halo are forced into class differences unnesserearably like with the shotgun agints the flood and convent weapons agints the convent. You figure that the convent would make thier weapons effective againsts humans more than it's effective against themselfs right? and why the shotgun Vs zombie thing? And what? no effective head shots excpet for the sniper rifle? question able weapon physics with the assult rifle. Why so weak? Why not use larger caliber rounds for far more damage at reduced clip size. If it is an SMG, why the massive spray? Shotgun, why does the bullets seem to disappear after 15 meters? Why no follow the mormal shotgun physics model where they don't disappear and continue to travel doing less damage?

I never said the AI in MOH was great, you said that. And without scrpiting, what is an AI? Do you really think that we really do have AI? or a set of weighted courses of action which once decided on because of the change in weighting goes on through with the script? If the Halo AI wasn't scripted into the levels, then they would have been used in multi with the addition of hidden markers in the map to allow the AI to know that is a rock and that is cover if I need it. How come CS AI bots when dropped into an unfimiliar level be able to anylanlize the level and decide on which what to do? About ledgenary mode, they do increase the damage you take. They shoot more and are more accurate. That seems pretty standard to me. They still use the same tactics when playing normal, just more often.

I will explain in greater detail why Halo is an unfinished game. Look at the beginning levels. Nice to look at in general? Yes? then comes to the two alien enviroments, only one that looks alien and one that looks like a prefab concrete you find in the subway. Reusing levels, no alternate routes, or illuison of having alternate routes, no exploration of levels for extra weapons, zero puzzels, no bosses or anything even simliar to one, nothing extra, no unlockables, zip. Bare bones and with repeating bones. If that is not unfinshed I don't know what is. Bungie/MS had a choice while Valve may not have.

Oh I played the game and I don't know why everyone sems to be wetting thier pants everytime someone mentions the game.

Although one thing I do enjoy about Halo is Red Vs Blue. Go figure.
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