Topic: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?

[Chozo Ghost]

That's 5 buttons (and 6 if you consider that they'd have to know or at least, figure out, what TV/Video does to even play videogames). How is it that with the hundreds of remote controls out there, people, who by your own admission only understand 5 buttons, couldn't figure out a Wii Remote with 2-3 more buttons?-3 buttons makes the Wii remote and nunchuck inadequate somehow. And the point is to get rid of the classic controller.

Well, as I see it most people don't even use all the functions of their remotes. They'll figure out how to turn it on and off, and work the channels and the volume and that's about it. If they need to, they can hunt and peck for the mute or menu button, but chances are they won't have this button's position memorized.

So you're asking why can't people figure out a video game controller which only has 2-3 more buttons? See my explanation above. Plus, in video games timing is crucial. With a tv remote, you have all the time to hunt and peck for that menu button, but in a video game you'll probably be dead before you find it. And this is precisely why many older folks can't handle video games.

[Kairon]

I think it's worth examining that the Wii has the most console exclusives according to GamingTarget.

http://www.gamingtarget.com/article.php?artid=7934

And that the Wii at about 1.5 years of life has 14 of those exclusives rated 75 or higher by metacritic, whereas the 360 had 15 exclusives rated above 75 according to metacritic at the same point in its life cycle.

In fact, the PS3 is accruing quality exclusives, as well as exclusives period, at much slower rates than the Wii. PS3 fans are the ones who should really be arguing about what we're talking about.

So if the Wii is outperforming the other consoles in number of exclusives, and perfectly on track in terms of number of quality exclusives, how can we narrow down specific criticisms?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Yikes, the fact that this is still even a debate 1.5 years into the cycle demonstrates those that "whined" back then had a point, much to apologists' dismay.

Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be. The Wii has been great gaming wise, SMG, Corruption, No More Heroes, Zack and Wiki, being just a few of the games that are stellar titles. Third party support, while far from perfect has improved from the GC era. Heck look at Pro Evolution Soccer which has turned the sports formula on its head and has finally revolutionized it.

Also people conveniently forget how closely Nintendo has tried to work with companies like Ubi Soft. We have to realize that the Wii concept is still very fresh, it is a completely new way of experiencing games and it has a broader market then ANY console before it. It is STILL going to take time for 3rd parties to become accustomed to a market that may not always gravitate towards games that sell well on 360/PS3.

You want to know the biggest problem pushing 3rd Parties towards making more "casual" games? It is not Nintendo, but the people that end up buying those games and making them profitable. Until a company really goes all out on a game, with a big budget that proves to be a success 3rd parties are going to stick with what is successful regardless of what Nintendo does.

I think people expect far too much from the Wii in such a short time, like the DS, it takes time for developers to actually take shots at crafting more traditional games on such an untraditional market and console. New territory is something that is always scary. I think the best thing Nintendo can do is show through their own stuff what can be done with Wii, and hope 3rd parties take some chances.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I agree with you GP, but this gen one big negative stigma it's actually the PS3 and 360 since publishers and devs have to spend more resources on making high definition assets, more man hours making those assets, longer development cycles which makes publishers go into a safe mode for something that will sell and unfortunately means a lot of yearly sequels, generic types of games that will appeal to the male teen - adult demographic with little room for the unique games on those two platforms.

Since development is cheapest on Wii DS and PSP we could see a lot more niche, unique and in a way every type of genre and in a way we do see that, on these three platforms we have "testing the water games", revivals of classic genres(especially on the Wii), ports (mostly on Wii and PSP, or PSP to PS2).

I think that this generation is a mess though considering how many revisions the PS3 and 360 have gone through, publishers playing it safe on the HD consoles, and all three console manufacturers making mistakes on consoles (MS with the worst console and customer support reliability,DRM issues, banning people on live due to expired credit cards, Sony not stocking parts for the 20/60 GB units for repairs, Sony cutting PS2 support on the 40GB units, Nintendo's storage issues and channel limits, and the hotly debated friend code debacle(even though I don't have problem using friend codes one unified friend code would be nice).

[Adrock]

So you're asking why can't people figure out a video game controller which only has 2-3 more buttons? See my explanation above. Plus, in video games timing is crucial. With a tv remote, you have all the time to hunt and peck for that menu button, but in a video game you'll probably be dead before you find it.

If the average person can handle at least 5 different buttons and use them at will, what's stopping them from using a Wii remote with 2-3 more buttons? At some point, they had to find those buttons on the TV/DVD remote and learn what they do so it's not like people are incapable of doing so. You don't hunt and peck for buttons if you know what they do and where they are. That learning what different buttons do is part of playing many videogames. Sure, not everyone wants to play games that require more advanced controls, but no one is forcing them to. That's the beauty of the motion controls in the Wii remote. Casual gamers will never have to learn button combinations if they don't want to. There are plenty of games that use one button only to start the game, the exclusively use motion controls.

I think the best thing Nintendo can do is show through their own stuff what can be done with Wii, and hope 3rd parties take some chances.

Hasn't Nintendo been leading through example for the last 11-12 years? Yeah, lot of good that did........

When it comes to support on the Wii, I blame both Nintendo and 3rd parties. On one hand, I feel Nintendo's focus on casual gamers (which includes but isn't limited to the Wii remote itself, as we've discussed) is making publishers hesitant to support the platform with more hardcore titles. Nintendo, additionally, hasn't done as much as they probably should to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, play the odds. The install base is too large to ignore.

[BigJim]

Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be.

Oh, I'm being grouped now. Awesome. Ironically, the response from the start to "people like Ian and I" has been, "you're so impatient. wait for E3, wait for TGS, wait for GDC, wait for DICE, wait for [vague] 2008 then you will totally see, etc" and one by one not a whole lot of results seemed to pan out. About a year and a half later, the line has been re-drawn enough times that perhaps it's time that the people that insisted on drawing and redrawing it reflect a little on the labels they have been quick to issue all the while. I digress.

Running off lists of games we personally like is easy. I can do the same, but it unfortunately has gaping holes between their releases. Anecdotal lists don't prove anything either way, including stubbornness, when there has always been cash in hand waiting to be spent. The 3rd party situation can be fluffed up any way desired, lists or not, but it won't change that there are issues.

I am aware that wanting more AAA games (from all parties) to fill gaps is controversial and evidently worthy of argument, but consumers are allowed to be demanding. As for adaptability, that's not the consumer's problem either (other than being handed the results).

[animecyberrat]

I am sorry Adrock but that silly. On a TV remote or DVD remote you pick up the remote and press the volume button what once every couple of hours? Even channel surfing only requires a constant pressing of either the up or the down key. There is no thought involved.


Playing a video game you are not only dealing with the button presses, which are more frequent and come in various combinations, you also have to press the D-pad, Joystick or wave the remote around in combination to the button presses. For most non gamers that can be a bit much.

Classic example, Mario and Tetris. Tetris requires moving a piece left or right and rotating one direction or another, the game can be played using only 2 buttons. More casual gamers play Tetris. Mario, just the basics, requires one to be constantly using the D-pad/Joystick or what have you to move your man on screen. In it's basic form yu have running and jumping, which is mapped to two different buttons and works in conjunction with the movement input device.

Mario games are a lot more complicated than running and jumping nowadays and even though he appeals to casuals based merely on recognition, a lot of "old school" Mario gamers who are the lapsed gamers that got into Wii because of it's simplicity still can be intimidated by the more complex controls of the newer games. That there is considering one of the more casual gamer friendly, yet also hard core gamer appealing games Nintendo has to offer.


As for the Wii  install base, true it is larger but consider this, how many of the people who own a Wii are the grandmas and grandpas who only play it occasionally and aside from Brain Age, Wii Play and maybe Wii Fit if their doctors ok it first, don't play much of anything else. How many of those people who own a Wii but could care less what games it has to offer? Right now people talk about the large install base, but I think the true size of the install base who is actually buying games is much smaller than those who are only grabbing the system and maybe 2 or 3 games max.

Right now taking into consideration how many consoles sold is not enough, one must also take into consideration who is buying those consoles and what games are they playing. Yes there are probably a lot of "hard core" gamers but what if hypothetically those numbers are more on par with GC? 3rd Party Devs may need more solid evidence to assure them that Wii can in fact handle the hard core games on a large scale. As of right now all we have to go by are Nintendos own games and the sales of 3rd party games released on the system.


Someone should compare the sales numbers of the casual games and the "hard core" games with GC software sales of similar games. How much more did Galaxies sell than Sunshine? How much more did RE:UC sell than RE:4 GC? How much did Man Hunt 2, Bully, The Godfather, the various Need for Speed games? How much do their sales compare to GC sales? Now compare those same numbers to PS34/360 games. Without that missing data nobody is getting the full picture and both sides are arguing over half truths. None of us know the exact cost of making a game for any of the other consoles. Hell even the costs quoted a year ago are no longer relavent because

A: most devs who made 1 game for PS3 already have the dev kits to make more games for the system,

B: dev kits are cheaper now than they were a year ago so that cost has gone down,

C: Hardware sales are much brighter now than a year ago so there is more potential customers to sell games to than a year ago,

D: Games made last year whose sequels are based on existing software are already cheaper to make and are easier to do so costs are lower there as well.

Bottom line is, whatever it cost a company to make a launch title for PS3 it does not cost that same amount to make a game for PS3 for that same company as the start up costs have already been spent and now they HAVE to recoup those cost one way or another.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be.

Oh, I'm being grouped now. Awesome. Ironically, the response from the start to "people like Ian and I" has been, "you're so impatient. wait for E3, wait for TGS, wait for GDC, wait for DICE, wait for 2008 then you will totally see, etc" and one by one not a whole lot of results seemed to pan out. About a year and a half later, the line has been re-drawn enough times that perhaps it's time that the people that insisted on redrawing it reflect a little on the labels they have been quick to issue all the while. I digress.

Running off lists of games we personally like is easy. I can do the same, but it unfortunately has gaping holes between their releases. Anecdotal lists don't prove anything either way, including stubbornness, when there has always been cash in hand waiting to be spent. The 3rd party situation can be fluffed up any way desired, lists or not, but it won't change that there are issues.

I am aware that wanting more AAA games (from all parties) to fill gaps is controversial and evidently worthy of argument, but consumers are allowed to be demanding. As for adaptability, that's not the consumer's problem either (other than being handed the results).

I think you summed up your position perfectly, you don't like the games out and since they don't please YOU, then support must be lacking. People (Not sure if you were in this group or not) were dooming Wii before it came out, and turns out they had no idea what you were talking about. Nintendo has been doing great, and so have 3rd parties who have actually took time to actually create games for Wii (Capcom, EA, Ubisoft to name a couple). Is it perfect? No but things are getting better, we are finally starting to see people like High Voltage, EA, and THQ start to take more risks with Wii with games like Conduit, Boom Blox (Oh noes, one of those casual games how horrendous), and Deadly Creatures.

Wii Ware is also showing extreme promise for more traditional and "hardcore" experiences but you don't even mention that. I'm sorry that you cannot see that the 3rd party situation is and HAS been improving over the last year and a half, especially over GC, but it is the truth. Now will we be seeing more traditional, ground-up, games for Wii from Third Parties? Well I have no idea, but that does not make the casual games any less valuable because they don't satisfy BigJim. It is a fascinating situation and it is ridiculous to start stating the sky is falling when the Wii and its concept are young.

Please look at the DS as a reference to how long it takes for 3rd Parties to actually start taking risks, it took close to 2 years before it got any substantial support. Now to be clear, I do NOT think the 3rd Party situation is perfect, but I think putting most of the blame on Nintendo is silly. It is kind of funny, perhaps the biggest budget title on Wii, Red Steel, showed right off the bat how 3rd parties can be successful. That was a game that Nintendo worked with Ubisoft on as well. Now who's fault is it really to not take a second jump? Both a 3rd Party AND Nintendo did their job, but 3rd parties still floundered in indecision and crappy ports.

Now I will give you a point, many of us were wrong when it came to what to expect from 3rd Parties. I personally thought we were going to see a bit more risk being taken at this level, though that does not mean I am not pleased at all with the situation because there have been some surprisingly great Wii games (And it isn't just my opinion) from 3rd parties. Is it slower than I would like? Sure. Am I a bit disappointed? Yep, to a degree. Am I completely unsatisfied? Heck no because there have been pleasing games released by 3rd parties!

P.S. You can also argue "gaps" in between games is relative to an individual as well. I could argue 360 and PS3 have had a ton of gaps as well for myself, does that mean they have big problems with 3rd parties? No, it just means the games that were released did not interest me. On the flip side I've always found something to play on Wii, so there have been few if any gaps since I've consistently bought a Wii game or two a MONTH since it was released.

[GoldenPhoenix]

One thing we need to take into consideration is that Brawl is smashing records, and may even surpass Halo 3 in units sold. Isn't that showing something to 3rd Parties? Nintendo may have a more casual focus but they creating enough traditional games that show the market is there, but that the publishers need to take some risks and actually MARKET their games instead of letting them die on the shelves.

[Kairon]

I think it's worth examining that the Wii has the most console exclusives according to GamingTarget.

http://www.gamingtarget.com/article.php?artid=7934

And that the Wii at about 1.5 years of life has 14 of those exclusives rated 75 or higher by metacritic, whereas the 360 had 15 exclusives rated above 75 according to metacritic at the same point in its life cycle.

Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.

And with regards to million sellers, I personally believe (ugh... I hate having to rely on VGChartz) that the Wii is tracking ahead of the 360 in terms of million sellers.

So on the subject of "there aren't enough games" I'd argue that the Wii seems to be tracking with or better than the XBox 360 in terms of breadth of game library, quantity and quality of exclusives and sales power.

The only place I can see there remaining for discussion is third-party multiplatform games that don't appear on the Wii.

[Kairon]

On one hand, I feel Nintendo's focus on casual gamers (which includes but isn't limited to the Wii remote itself, as we've discussed) is making publishers hesitant to support the platform with more hardcore titles. Nintendo, additionally, hasn't done as much as they probably should to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, play the odds. The install base is too large to ignore.

Nintendo has to practically service the entire casual gaming segment on their own, third parties have been so inept at it. Cut 'em some slack. Nintendo's pulling double duty with the Wii, didn't ya know, AND they got Mario Zelda and Metroid out in the first year to boot!

[Luigi Dude]

One thing we need to take into consideration is that Brawl is smashing records, and may even surpass Halo 3 in units sold. Isn't that showing something to 3rd Parties? Nintendo may have a more casual focus but they creating enough traditional games that show the market is there, but that the publishers need to take some risks and actually MARKET their games instead of letting them die on the shelves.

You are correct.  Brawl has sold 4.85 million copies worldwide, with 1.61 million in Japan, and 3.24 million of those sold here in North America in the last SIX WEEKS.  That's right, Brawl which some people on this board thought would be too hardcore for the Wii's userbase to enjoy, has sold over 3 million copies here in America in not even 2 months.  Then when we count the sales this game will get in Europe, Brawl should be somewhere over 7 million worldwide by the end of this summer, which means Brawl will have surpassed Melee lifetime total that it took 6 YEARS to get in a little over 6 MONTHS.

And Brawl isn't the only game doing stuff like this.  Mario Galaxy outsold Sunshines lifetime total in only 2 months last holiday andTwilight Princess for the Wii outsold Wind Wakers lifetime total in only a year.  Of course when you add the Gamecube and Wii version of Twilight Princess together, it's over 6 million worldwide, which crushes Wind Waker.  And all the other ones are the same way, Paper Mario, Mario Strikers, Mario Party, Fire Emblem, even Metroid Prime 3 are outdoing their Gamecube counterparts.  Well Metroid Prime 3 isn't close to Prime 1's numbers but it has outsold Prime 2, which still makes it a success story.

Plus even for 3rd parties, they're getting much better sales.  Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition is close to surpassing the Gamecube version of Resident Evil 4, which is amazing considering Wii Edition is only a port.  This means if Capcom was to make an original Resident Evil for the Wii, it would have incredible sales.  Not to mention Umbrella Chronicles has surpassed 1 million and is still selling.  The recent Winning Eleven (Pro Evolution Soccer) from Konami has sold better then any of their Gamecube games by far, not to mention is actually selling better then the 360/PS3 version.  Plus in Europe, Sega is having amazing sales off of all their Wii games.  Every week the UK charts shows several Sega Wii games on the top charts, doing better then any of Sega's 360 and PS3 games.

Oh I could go on, but the bottom line is the Wii is having amazing sales for pretty much EVERY genre and EVERY type of game, whether it's casual or hardcore.

[IceCold]

We should give you the title of "Official Sales Aficionado"

The recent Winning Eleven (Pro Evolution Soccer) from Konami has sold better then any of their Gamecube games by far, not to mention is actually selling better then the 360/PS3 version.

Seriously? That's incredible - innovation like PES should be rewardsed.

Also, you forgot to mention Red Steel - it was a huge commercial success.

[KDR_11k]

Talking about button counts on remotes is silly if you forget that most of the buttons peopel know are paired. When you have two buttons affecting volume, one increasing and one decreasing it's easier to remember them as a pair. Such a pair should be considered one button (just like the dpad is one "button") since you only have to remember one to know both.

More buttons = lower signal to noise. Even if you only use two buttons, finding them isn't always easy. Hell, a game using only "confirm" and "cancel" on the PS2 is already confusing because you don't know which button does which. It's important to provide visual and tactile guidance towards the buttons that will probably do something.

Also consider how people remember the controls. They will often forget details, remembering only "press the button near the thumb" which means they are screwed if they have to remember one button out of a button diamond, they will remember it's in the diamond but not which button in there. On the GC you could remember "big green button", on the Wiimote you can remember "big thumb button" and have more or less a unique grip for each button (I often confuse + with - and 1 with 2 since those buttons are very similar but I never confuse, say, 1 with A).


The game situation to me is still that there are way too few games I want, there's almost none (or truly none?) that I want badly and the rest are more of the "moderate want" type which I'm not willing to pay full price for.

[Kairon]

Hell, a game using only "confirm" and "cancel" on the PS2 is already confusing because you don't know which button does which.

I've been a gamer all my life and I've been tricked by that so many times, and usually on the PS controller too. I think it's got to do with a cultural disconnect between westerners and the Japanese about what an X and O mean. I'm thinking that to Westerners, "X marks the spot" or "Sign your X on the line" and is therefore an affirmative symbol. However, I suspect that the Japanese use X as a "dame desu" and a sign to mark something wrong, and therefore, a negatory response.

[Ceric]

I have to agree with the line in the sand.  There hasn't been much that has had me wanting to buy it at launch or I must have.  Also Wiiware is Vapor Ware until I can buy it.  Like Home and LBP for the PS3 till I can get it in my hand I don't count it.

Even Mario Kart I don't really want because I really enjoyed Double Dash and Mario Kart DS.  I wanted a blending of the best of both in the Wii game and from what I've read that is not the case.  I'll probably eventually rent it.

As for those sales numbers if they weren't better then the Cube I be surprised.  If I had the time I go digging for numbers but I'm not there yet.  I rather like to see what percentage of Wii owners own the game compared to the percentage of Cube owner who own the equivalent.  Let say, imaginary numbers, Sunshine had a 71% attach rate with the Cube and Galaxy had a 60% attach rate with the Wii.  By virtue of selling more raw copies Galaxy is doing fiscally better but it be doing worse then Sunshine in the arena of the users it had to work with.

All very interesting.

[Mario]

I think it comes down to this. If you're open minded, you'll find heaps of games you WILL love on Wii. If you're dumb, you wont, and you'll complain, and life will suck so bad you'll try and you'll bring other things down to raise yourself.

So basically Wii is amazing.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I think it comes down to this. If you're open minded, you'll find heaps of games you WILL love on Wii. If you're dumb, you wont, and you'll complain, and life will suck so bad you'll try and you'll bring other things down to raise yourself.

So basically Wii is amazing.

If your looking by the different amount of genres then yes Wii is amazing, the crazy thing is even though I have owned a 360 first my Wii library is bigger than my 360 or PS3 library.

[Adrock]

Such a pair should be considered one button (just like the dpad is one "button") since you only have to remember one to know both.

You still need to know what they do and where there are, just as any other button. You can't separate function and position. There's still a degree of learning involved in both a TV remote and a game controller.

Casual games on the Wii are designed around motion controls, rather than button presses. However, if a casual gamer wanted (and that's the key here) to move on to traditional games, "graduate" from casual to "hardcore" games if you will, they can and buttons aren't going to stop them. Why? Because they can figure out a regular remote (position and function of certain buttons). Because every seasoned gamer had to once. Were we deterred by the SNES? Still, that's if they want to and I'd say, most of them do not. They'll keep playing Wii Sports.

Also consider how people remember the controls. They will often forget details, remembering only "press the button near the thumb" which means they are screwed if they have to remember one button out of a button diamond, they will remember it's in the diamond but not which button in there. On the GC you could remember "big green button", on the Wiimote you can remember "big thumb button" and have more or less a unique grip for each button...

I've already adressed this: There are ways to make it easier for people if in fact, people need it to be. Convex/concave buttons (like the SNES), different shaped/sized buttons (like Gamecube, but not as ugly) and so on.

There doesn't need to be a diamond arrangement (though I'd like to point out again that the DS has one). Take the Wii remote and add 3 "satellites" buttons. If, at that point, people still can't figure out that they must press the big, round A button when an onscreen indicator tells them to press the big, round A button (i.e. Wii Sports), especially when their thumbs rest directly on the big, round A button, and the other satellite buttons located around the big, round A button are programmed to do nothing, then that's their own fault because they are stupid and they have no business being anywhere near a videogame controller. I would wager that very few people fit into that catagory and I don't think a whole controller should be designed around accomodating/coddling them.

[BigJim]

I think you summed up your position perfectly, you don't like the games out and since they don't please YOU, then support must be lacking. People (Not sure if you were in this group or not) were dooming Wii before it came out, and turns out they had no idea what you were talking about. Nintendo has been doing great, and so have 3rd parties who have actually took time to actually create games for Wii (Capcom, EA, Ubisoft to name a couple). Is it perfect? No but things are getting better, we are finally starting to see people like High Voltage, EA, and THQ start to take more risks with Wii with games like Conduit, Boom Blox (Oh noes, one of those casual games how horrendous), and Deadly Creatures.

Well we can swing that pendulum either way -- if you are satisfied, then there's not a drought, etc etc. ad infinitum. As you mentioned, droughts are relative. But anyway, I personally didn't doom the Wii, but I did say "show me the money" and thus ensued a moving benchmark of wait for this or that event, and using titles like Red Steel as proof of perpetual AAA title support. When that didn't pan out, they moved on to the safest and only other future likely-AAA titles they knew of including Mario and SSB that were still a year-plus away. One couldn't have a valid point because [insert future titles and events here] was coming. The answer was always around the corner. Apparently still is.

Now I will give you a point, many of us were wrong when it came to what to expect from 3rd Parties. I personally thought we were going to see a bit more risk being taken at this level, though that does not mean I am not pleased at all with the situation because there have been some surprisingly great Wii games (And it isn't just my opinion) from 3rd parties. Is it slower than I would like? Sure. Am I a bit disappointed? Yep, to a degree. Am I completely unsatisfied? Heck no because there have been pleasing games released by 3rd parties!

Ahhhhhhh. Finally. Sweet smell if validation. Such a rarity here. 

Wii Ware is also showing extreme promise for more traditional and "hardcore" experiences but you don't even mention that. I'm sorry that you cannot see that the 3rd party situation is and HAS been improving over the last year and a half, especially over GC, but it is the truth. Now will we be seeing more traditional, ground-up, games for Wii from Third Parties? Well I have no idea, but that does not make the casual games any less valuable because they don't satisfy BigJim. It is a fascinating situation and it is ridiculous to start stating the sky is falling when the Wii and its concept are young.

I didn't say the sky was falling or anything bad about casual games. You've kinda run off with a false assumption there. I'm looking forward to Wii Ware, no doubt about it. I'm not banking on them to fill X-month-long gaps since so little is known about it, but anything is *some* help. I am jazzed about the possibilities, but we can't play possibilities. So yeah, it boils down to just another "wait for" talking point with a nebulous pending outcome. That record's been playing for the last 1.5 years. Heh.

Please look at the DS as a reference to how long it takes for 3rd Parties to actually start taking risks, it took close to 2 years before it got any substantial support. Now to be clear, I do NOT think the 3rd Party situation is perfect, but I think putting most of the blame on Nintendo is silly. It is kind of funny, perhaps the biggest budget title on Wii, Red Steel, showed right off the bat how 3rd parties can be successful. That was a game that Nintendo worked with Ubisoft on as well. Now who's fault is it really to not take a second jump? Both a 3rd Party AND Nintendo did their job, but 3rd parties still floundered in indecision and crappy ports.

D'oh! Red Steel again! All I can say again is that this is a decade-plus-long problem. If you think that the clock should be "reset" because the DS and Wii are so different, we just disagree. I don't know who gets the majority of the blame for the issue, I just said Nintendo gets plenty. Additionally, ultimately the onus is on them to rectify it, one way or another, regardless of how it's divided up.

Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.

Oh I didn't mean to forget you Kairon. The results seem kinda ho-hum across the board. LOL. A 75 rating is a bit subjective to them. I didn't count the number of 80+ rated titles (my own equally useless subjective benchmark for a flawed rating system) but I'll dig around when I get a chance. But I don't think any particular tastes are well accounted for, unless maybe if you're an FPS fan with an Xbox. (just a generalization since I didn't look yet.) It's possibly problematic across the board.

[Kairon]

Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.

Oh I didn't mean to forget you Kairon. The results seem kinda ho-hum across the board. LOL. A 75 rating is a bit subjective to them. I didn't count the number of 80+ rated titles (my own equally useless subjective benchmark for a flawed rating system) but I'll dig around when I get a chance. But I don't think any particular tastes are well accounted for, unless maybe if you're an FPS fan with an Xbox. (just a generalization since I didn't look yet.) It's possibly problematic across the board.

Well, unless you can think of a better metric, which is what you're asking for, I think that metacritic is the most stable one we have at hand to measure game quality. In fact, it may even be biased against Nintendo since certain big sellers like Carnival Games and Wii Play and even Excite Truck do NOT reach 75 on that scale, and it's widely suspected that a lot of reviewers have difficulty reviewing Wii games.

If we want to move ahead on this topic, I think we have to draw a line in the sand, and metacritic is agreat place to start. And according to those metacritic figures based on exclusive games, the Wii is doing just fine in quality. In quantity it holds the lead. I wonder if we look at genres, whether the Wii might have a breadth in that too that would be healthy.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well I think this is a good place to say BigJim and I agree to disagree. Before I go I think the only system that you can truly argue that there were droughts on in the context of a TRUE drought (games hardly coming out at all) is the N64. Now there was a drought lol.

[Plugabugz]

I think we all expect too much to a certain standard, and anything that is PERCEIVED to be below that we collectively turn our nose up at.

[BigJim]

Well, unless you can think of a better metric, which is what you're asking for, I think that metacritic is the most stable one we have at hand to measure game quality. In fact, it may even be biased against Nintendo since certain big sellers like Carnival Games and Wii Play and even Excite Truck do NOT reach 75 on that scale, and it's widely suspected that a lot of reviewers have difficulty reviewing Wii games.

If we want to move ahead on this topic, I think we have to draw a line in the sand, and metacritic is agreat place to start. And according to those metacritic figures based on exclusive games, the Wii is doing just fine in quality. In quantity it holds the lead. I wonder if we look at genres, whether the Wii might have a breadth in that too that would be healthy.

I dunno. It seems like there is some consensus showing that there is room for improvement. It's just a matter of varying degrees by which people are individually impacted. I don't think a statistical breakdown is going to resolve much beyond that. For example, if someone's not interested in sports or Zack and Wiki games (and why not, you silly fools?) then their inclusion on a list doesn't alleviate their impact. I think it's reasonably acceptable enough that there's acknowledgment of an issue, and based on tastes, its severity (if any effect) is flexible but real.

Before I go I think the only system that you can truly argue that there were droughts on in the context of a TRUE drought (games hardly coming out at all) is the N64. Now there was a drought lol.

Oh gawd, if nothing else we agree those were teh hardc0r3 droughts.

[Kairon]

I dunno. It seems like there is some consensus showing that there is room for improvement. It's just a matter of varying degrees by which people are individually impacted. I don't think a statistical breakdown is going to resolve much beyond that. For example, if someone's not interested in sports or Zack and Wiki games (and why not, you silly fools?) then their inclusion on a list doesn't alleviate their impact. I think it's reasonably acceptable enough that there's acknowledgment of an issue, and based on tastes, its severity (if any effect) is flexible but real.

But then we've essentially abandoned the issue and said, "well it's subjective!" I mean, the same criticism can, and has, been levelled at the XBox 360.
Well, whatever your stance on this, the Wii is in much better shape than the PS3. I mean, as bad as the N64 was, I think it was still an amazing time for amazing games. The PS3 doesn't have a Mario 64, let's all remember.