Topic: Is Nintendo killing thirdparty support itself?

[Gamebasher]

Over at IGN, in the GameCube Mailbag section, a guy recently wrote the editors, about how frustrated he is over the considerably lesser releases of games being planned for the Nintendo GameCube, as opposed to its two main competitors, PS2 and XBOX. He thinks there is a trend to sort of avoid the GCN, and in response to his query the editor replies-

that while there is a number of unmissable must-have games coming for GCN, they are mostly first-party, and second-party releases, and that if you leave out Namco, Capcom and SEGA there is almost no other releases on the Gamecube for the rest of the year.

He continues by saying that this has been the Nintendo situation since the N64 days and he labels it a problem which stems from Nintendo apparently still being stuck in the days of the SNES where is was the undisputed videogame leader.

He feels that Nintendo thinks that developers should feel privileged to develop games for itĀ“s gamemachines, whether it be out of ignorance or arrogance. He has something to back up his claims though, having recently spoken to a major (unnamed) third-party developer who was approached by a Nintendo representative who wanted them to start developing for the Nintendo Revolution. But they scoffed, wanting the rep to give him a reason why! He was given what is probably the lamest reply you could ever give to anybody approaching a developer for support of your gaming platform and that was the end of that. A frighteningly arrogant response, which, if true, wont do them any good. The letter and response can be viewed

Here

You can now judge for yourselves, if you think it has any substance. IGN is the biggest in the Gaming Media, so I would say they know what they talk about, and that it gives reason to worry about the future for thirdparty gamesupport on Nintendo platforms, nomatter how advanced the gameinterface!!

Is Nintendo ignorant or arrogant? Or are they fully aware of the whole situation, and doing nothing about it because they donĀ“t care? Has this anything to do with the many times below-average games, being released by the third-parties, that simply donĀ“t sell on the GCN for lack of ability to compete with the better offerings, from first- and second parties? And, finally, do any of you think that this situation could dramatically affect the entire market in the future, for good or for worse?

If you look at the situation over at the PS2 and XBOX platforms, there is quite a few good games on offer there, but even more junk games than good ones (just take a look at the Reviews and the scores for each of most games!). Is the ratio of good vs. bad games on either of the three platforms the same? And if so is Nintendo doing themselves an ill-favor by allegedly not granting enough support for those third-parties which could fill their gamelibrary with all sorts of games and help attract even more gamers to GCN thus once again creating more attention for Nintendo?

No fanboy rants, please!

I think that even all the fanboys in the world couldnĀ“t save Nintendo, if they are really treating the all-important third-parties this way!

 

[Deguello]

Hearsay and conjecture, typical IGN antics.  They do not say either the name of the 3rd party developer or the mysterious "Nintendo Rep."

Also The language with which the "Third party head" used is not very appropriate for a CEO or President of a Company, and even if they used that language, that response is totally taken out of context Bill 'O Reilly-style.

This reeks of fabrication.

[joshnickerson]

I'll say this...
"You can't spell 'IGNorant"... without IGN."

[CHEN]

There's no proof whatsoever. Don't take everything IGN says as facts. I thought people know better nowadays.

[Ian Sane]

I kind of doubt the accuracy of that "conversation" but I do think that Nintendo does inadvertingly screw their own third party support over due to ignorance.  I remember a while back there was a rumour that Nintendo had lowered their licensing fees but that even after being lowered the fees were STILL higher than Sony's and Microsoft's.  You just can't do that sort of thing if you're not the market leader.  No one will pay EXTRA to support a console that's in LAST PLACE and that traditionally has the lowest selling third party games.  That's just simple business.

Now I don't know how accurate that rumour is though Nintendo has traditionally had a reputation of bullying third parties and there's been no indication that they've changed or at least changed enough for third parties to care.  Hell they've screwed up some of their third party support because of things we can see.  If a game is online it's not on the Cube or it is but the Cube gets a hacked up version that's missing a lot of features.  Sports games are almost always worst on the Cube because the memory card is too small.  The Cube controller reaks for fighting games and, surprise, fighting games on the Cube are rare.  Those are examples that we can see that are the result of ignorance.  Nintendo designs the console for themselves and doesn't take into account how others will use it and loses some support because of it.  It's the N64 situation though in a much smaller scale.

Nintendo's third party problems basically stem from that fact that it's 2004 and Nintendo acts like it's 1994.  They assume third parties want to support them.  A more accurate assumption would be to assume that NO ONE wants to support them.  That's not completely accurate but that sort of thinking would encourage them to improve third party relations more.  It also relates to ignorance of the buying public.  Nintendo thinks people will buy their console just for them and third party games are a bonus.  That's for the most part not the case and they would do better if they regarded third party support as more important.  Basically Nintendo has to give third parties an incentive to support them.  Their strategy where they work with third parties is a good idea but it's not widespread enough and they need some more incentives that will attract everyone.

[Deguello]

"No one will pay EXTRA to support a console that's in LAST PLACE and that traditionally has the lowest selling third party games. "

Second Place, please.  Video Games do not only exist in North America.

[Bill Aurion]

IGNcube has been out to get Nintendo ever since the GC was revealed...Why, I have no idea...

[Ian Sane]

"Second Place, please. Video Games do not only exist in North America."

Fine second world wide.  But to American third parties it is in last place.

[odifiend]

Can we get Mario in here or get some numbers supporting their second place status?  I've heard the box generally sells better in Europe and Australia and I know it sells better in North America.  Not to downplay the buying power of Japan, but I have doubts that they can make up the difference of 3 other regions.

[Deguello]

"But to American third parties it is in last place."

Eh, they are just sore their generic World War II-themed Stealth Squad-based Tactical Squad-tactics based Tactical-base squad games don't sell too well in Japan, so they blame the most Japanese thing that isn't Sony.

[odifiend]

Yeah, I bet every last third party company is.  You are the winner.

There are third companies who play ludicrous blame games (Acclaim, Midway, Eidos, etc...), but for the most part I lot of them are justified in dropping support.  Even the third parties that support the cube mentioned by IGN, Namco, Sega and Capcom, are taking back promised exclusives.  Tales of Symphonia, Monkey Ball, 2 of the Capcom 5 (might be capcom 4 now).
Is it Nintendo's fault, probably not. My guess is that conversation took place between an executive who was wearing a moneyhat from M$ and Nintendo wasn't willing to offer one.  But they should give companies major price breaks to keep exclusives (Nintendo could be trying this already) because exclusives do make the difference.
EDIT: It seems I bad mouthed Midway too soon... Mortal Kombat: Deception cometh.  What a deception that was! Ba bum bum.  I'll sit down now.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

You can't spell "IGNCuccumber" without "IGNCube."

Really.  I mean wha

[Syl]

I think that nintendo IS the reason that 3rd parties don't sell well, its quite simple.

Nintendo Games are the best on the system, they sell the most, they're obviously the reason to own it.

So why buy something that isn't as good?

That said, Just about every gamecube exclusive game has been downright amazing, and they sadly don't have the sales to show it.  So why bother when you can make more money elsewhere?  

[Ian Sane]

"I think that nintendo IS the reason that 3rd parties don't sell well, its quite simple.

Nintendo Games are the best on the system, they sell the most, they're obviously the reason to own it.

So why buy something that isn't as good?"

I've never bought that arguement.  Third party games sold huge on the NES and SNES and continue to sell huge on the GBA.  The reason Cube third party games sell like crap is because ALL Cube games sell like crap because the console itself has sold like crap.  If the Revolution is a closer competitor to the PS3 third party games will sell on it.

[couchmonkey]

I agree with everyone!  I'm having  a slow day at the office, so here's my loooong opinion:

IGN probably has a point.  These guys talk to developers and publishers all the time and I do not.  So while I take Matt C's opinions with a grain of salt, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.  I bet Nintendo is less welcoming to third parties than it could be.  I can see why too, I mean Nintendo made it through the N64 generation with a tiny fraction of the third party support the GameCube has, so the company probably doesn't think it's a problem (even though it is).  Sony on the other hand built its console on third party games like Crash Bandicoot and Final Fantasy: it is working towards more independence, but ultimately still relies on third parties.  Microsoft has had many timed exclusives because it's willing to give bags full of money to the third parties.   Obviously both of those companies care about third party support a lot, maybe Nintendo doesn't so much.

I don't think it's entirely Nintendo turning away the developers, though.  I think some of the developers give the Gamecube unfair treatment.  You know what I mean: they put out a bunch of crappy ports and then complain that they aren't selling well enough.  Still, many developers have legitimate complaints.  There's no reason that Sega's sports titles shouldn't sell on the GameCube other than Nintendo fans just don't buy many sports games.

I think Ian Sane is about right: the sales are poor because the Cube doesn't have very many consoles out there.  Of course, one of the keys to selling consoles is to have strong third party support.  During the first half of 2002, when the Cube had virtually nothing to play, Mirosoft was promoting Wreckless and Bloodwake, and the store shelves consistently had 25-50% more Xbox games than GameCube games.  I think that had a big impact on the Cube's sales and on people's attitude towards it: during launch, it seemed to me that both consoles had a lot of hype, with Xbox edging out GameCube by a bit, but the hype for GameCube seemed to die way down until Christmas of 2002, while Xbox kept on going.

So I think Nintendo needs to work on attracting third parties, and also needs to take a leading role in making it's consoles marketable to a larger age range.  At least if it wants to sell more consoles.  I don't really care what Nintendo does as long as it keeps making the games I need to play.

[Bartman3010]

So that means more crummy GCN ports like Crash - Wrath of Cortex?

Maybe its the 3rd party developers THEMESELVES doing the crap.

[Berny]

I'm wondering if mouseclicker just hasn't seen this thread yet or if he's just given up and is going to ignore it...

Quote
Maybe its the 3rd party developers THEMESELVES doing the crap.

Yep.

[Syl]

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I've never bought that arguement. Third party games sold huge on the NES and SNES and continue to sell huge on the GBA. The reason Cube third party games sell like crap is because ALL Cube games sell like crap because the console itself has sold like crap. If the Revolution is a closer competitor to the PS3 third party games will sell on it.

All cube games sell like crap?  Look at sales charts, nintendo first party games are easily up there with the biggest of the big from any system.  Nintendo is the one of the top publishers for a reason (2 or 3 last i checked after EA, of course), its cause their games sell, insanely well, despite anything that says differently.

The Snes and Genesis were completely different than the tri-console market we have these days, back then exclusives weren't nearly as hyped, ports lesser so, and more importantly, both consoles' big sellers were first party titles.  Sony and Xbox don't have first party titles that sell that well, so they have to whore out 3rd parties to make up those sales.  

Not all cube games sell like crap, if they did, then there wouldn't be any of them.  First parties sell damn well, and games more geared to the cubes audience also sell quite well.  (Sega's Sonic Titles each broke over 500,000 monkeyballs did as well)

Its mainly the crappy third party games that sell like crap, noone wants to buy something horrible when they KNOW a nintendo game is going to be great.  On the other consoles, the same is true, but not as much, if a game says Sony, Konami, or Square theres no guarantee its going to be amazing, or even if it says Ubisoft or THQ, so people buy more on impulse compared to the "safety zone" of Nintendo first party games.  

And hell, nintendo games sell the best on GBA as well, (pokemon sells more than any other game, without fail) but theres no competition so theres not really anywhere for the 3rd party to do poorly on.  (and thats a whole nother type of demographic)  

[Draygaia]

Even if Nintendo did do some things to get 3rd party to develop for it they will have to work harder than Sony or MS.  Anybody is more than happy to work on their systems.  They don't even have to talk to Sony or MS.  PS2 and Xbox are already popular and the GCN is seen as something as sort of a why even bother its just not popular.  Its also does not have the online it seriously needs.  I dissapointed at the obstacle of not having free online like PC but Nintendo needs some online service like xbox live.

Its only a matter of time till Nintendo just crumbles in consoles and just sticks to handhelds.  Atleast all the obstacles they have on consoles isn't on a handheld such as free online.  Somehow in the back of my mind I still have the feeling of as long as there are home consoles Nintendo will be there.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
I've heard the box generally sells better in Europe and Australia and I know it sells better in North America.  Not to downplay the buying power of Japan, but I have doubts that they can make up the difference of 3 other regions.

I think Xbox may be #1 in Australia.  I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Infernal Monkey]

Nintendo: Hey Acclaim, you wanna develop games for the Revolution?
Acclaim: WHY SHOULD WE? LAUGH MY ASS OFF.

*Acclaim guy rolls around the floor screaming due to lack of ass*

Nintendo: So... um, no BMX XXX-2?

[Deguello]

Too much brain power has been put to this subject.

Does Nintendo have 3rd party problems?  YES.  Are they fixable without instantly becoming the market leader or subsidizing failure like Microsoft?  Not sure.  Does Matt's secondhand anecdote of an alleged event with an unnamed "head of development" at an unnamed 3rd party to an unnamed Nintendo "representative" reflect Nintendo's attitude toward third parties, given that all third parties act this way toward Nintendo and that 3rd parties  and videogames in general only exist in America?  NO

But the damage is done, right Matt?  Man when that Mature Zelda showed up, it was like he ran out of stuff to compalin about.  So I guess he resorted to making sh!t up.

[Chongman]

just shuttup and enjoy your games.

I wish ninty was in first too, but sheesh, it's been a pretty good generation for gc gamers as a whole and its going to get a whole lot better in the next 6 months. So just chill out and play your games.

[KDR_11k]

I once read that to sell well on a given system, you have to appeal to its audience. And no matter what fanboys think, those audiences have different demands. For example, the XBox crowd seems to put more emphasis on graphcs (might be because they were told by Microsoft that the XBox has superior graphics and no they expect this to hold true for every game on the system, leading to disappointment if a game doesn't hold up to the promise), the PS2 seems to be most popular with the casual crowd (the kind that doesn't read reviews and buys movie franchises) and the Cube appeals to children and the remains of the "good old days" (i.e. the people who long for the Nintendo vs. Sega days). Every system has a percentage of everything, but those percentages vary. Every console has its share of the "hardcore" crowd (I'd say "average gamer" but most people read that as "casual") and its share of the casual crowd.
What sells best on every given system? Well, what the owners bought the system for! On the PS2 that's sports games and GTA, for the XBox that's... um... Halo? Sorry, don't have the numbers for that but I'd guess mostly FPS and related genres. And on the Cube Nintendo's games and games like them sell well. Maybe Sega's too, since I'd say it attracted Sega fans, too.
Third parties develop for the PS2 since it has the largest market. Obviously the PS2 audience wants other games than the XBox or Gamecube audience. Since the taste of XBox owners isn't THAT different from the PS2 owners', the games still sell a bit on the XBox. To sell a game on the GC you'd have to go for the audience, i.e. deliver a game that's very similar in style to those that Nintedo delivers. It's no gurantee for sales (VJ, anyone? Maybe the people who bought a Cube bought it only for games labelled "Nintendo" or "Sega"?), but I think it's the only way. roblem is that if a game appeals to the GC crowd it usually won't appeal to the PS2 and XB crowd, so going for that is only smart if you're making an exclusive, anyway.

Nintendo tried to "expand" its audience, but that's doomed to failure. Most undecided people go by word by mouth, but this word of mouth is spread by the initial owners of a system and their preferrences. The moment Nintendo got labelled kiddie was the moment their demographic was determined. Even if you try selling lots of "against the grain" games, you can't change the grain since the majority of existing owners already has this preferrence and future owners will mostly be influenced by existing owners.

Keep in mind that your oppinion and preferrences bear absolutely no weight on this discussion. The sole fact that you are on a games related message board shows that you belong to the small "gamer" crowd that exists on any system and will probably buy most good games even if they don't appeal to the core demographic of the system. The majority didn't read up anything before buying a system, they went with what their "hardcore" (actually average, but even without reaching pro level most gamers call themselves hardcore) friends told them.The majority doesn't bother with games beyond what appears on the screen, they won't play online, in leagues or participate in discussions on a scale that goes beyond their closest friends (i.e. online message boards).

As long as the primary selling point of Nintendo consoles remain Nintendo games third parties will have a hard time on the system.

[ruby_onix]

I would say that the reasons behind Nintendo's current third party situation are numerous and complicated. And I don't think that "Nintendo itself" is the biggest reason of the bunch.

I think Nintendo has made some pretty major changes to try and become more "third party friendly", but of course, there are always a few small hints about ideas and attitudes that Nintendo still refuses to give up.

That's about as far into it as I want to go into this right now.

I hate how IGN does this kinda crap. They go into a big hissy-fit, get all their fanbase all riled up, then ignore all the worthless opinions of their nobody-fanbase. I refuse to participate.