Topic: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?

[Mario]

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Do any of you think in general that Nintendo's Cube games are broken and need to be fixed?

Not at all, but they aren't going to disappear. Graphics expanded with the N64 and GameCube, now it's time for controls to expand. They can't "kill gaming" because GameCube, N64, SNES and NES games will STILL EXIST when Revolution comes out! In fact they'll even be playable on it! Want to play a traditional game? Play GC, N64, SNES or NES, want something new? Play a Revolution game. Oh yeah, and don't forget Twilight Princess is coming out, there's your traditional option.

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Nintendo is the only console maker left who truly knows how to make brilliant games with the current model. So if they change to some new model then there's no one left.

Are you implying Nintendo wont be able to make brilliant games with the new model?

Honestly, if you want Nintendo to become market leader again, THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH. They can't compete by doing the same thing MS and Sony do, as this generation has shown.  

[Ian Sane]

"Want to play a traditional game? Play GC, N64, SNES or NES"

But those are games I've played before.  I don't want to play old games.  I want to play new games that use the current design model.  This is a very odd situation that we've never really dealt with before.  I want new ideas created using the more traditional system, if that makes sense.  You don't need a remote with only two buttons to make a new game with a new concept.

"Honestly, if you want Nintendo to become market leader again, THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH. They can't compete by doing the same thing MS and Sony do, as this generation has shown."

This generation doesn't prove anything.  The Cube failed because Nintendo made some of the most blatant call-it-a-mile-away STUPID decisions I've ever seen.  The Cube failed to improve Nintendo's market share because Nintendo had their head up their ass.  Nintendo lost to Sony twice because Nintendo f*cked up and Sony didn't.  When Nintendo does everything right but still can't compete with Sony then it's time to suggest a complete overhaul.  Nintendo CAN compete with Sony and MS.  They just have to have better marketing, be a whole bunch nicer to third parties, be less stubborn about stupid things, and not make dumb mistakes any idiot can spot ahead of time that later bite them in the ass.  Nintendo is their own greatest enemy.  Sony and MS don't have to do anything special.  Nintendo kills themselves.  Suggesting that this remote stuff is the right path is like suggesting that a fighter who ties his own arms behind his back should quit boxing.  Maybe he should try fighting with his arms untied first.

Besides I don't want Nintendo to be the market leader is they do so by changing into something I don't like which they very well might with all this non-gamer nonsense.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I could care less that NES came after the implosion of the gaming industry, change benefited it. History has shown that changes to traditional controls have helped the gaming industry more than they hurt it, a couple of these changes that come to mind is the analogue stick and pressure sensitive buttons. One other minor, but still significant change was the rumble pack. Honestly when you look at the Revolution controller it is not that different from the current generation of controllers it just has a different shape and 2 fewer buttons than the norm (that is not counting the two NES style buttons towards the bottom), what it does have is a new way with interacting games that could possibly help expand control in games such as FPS or even give a big boost to camera control which has been a nasty little troll that never quite got exterminated!  

[IceCold]

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if you have faith in Nintendo's games, then why don't you have faith in the controller that Nintendo designed specifically to improve Nintendo games?

I think he believes that Nintendo didn't actually change it to improve games - they just wanted a way to separate themselves from Sony and MS, but "traditional" controls really didn't need to be fixed. Nintendo's games would work better with the old controls, and now because Nintendo has chosen to go with this, theey will have to adapt their games to it, and they could turn out worse. Am I right Ian?  

[Stimutacs Addict]

speaking of Katamary Damacy, did you guys know that they are making a version for PSP? I'm almost inclined to believe that Sony 'suggested' that they make that title for their handheld as opposed to a competitor's handheld that would much better suit the title.

I wanted what ian does -- I figured the controller would be a cube controller with a rounded B button and motion-sensing capabilities, no z button, and no c stick. Looking back, i think this would have been pretty crummy. I hear people complaining about rising game costs and one person even said that he'd wish they'd stop putting out consoles every time  a new processor or video card comes out. This is a perfect answer to their prayers. I really think that if nintendo makes sure they have one Western-oriented game at launch (aka new FPS and include goldeneye on the dowload service with new controls and throw in WiFi), America will be sold.   HOWEVER, they need to beat PS3 to the punch. no one is going to drop an additional $300 after a $600 PS3 purchase. Pretty much anyone who buys a Ps3 will be solely purchasing a Ps3 and sony knows it.

I think that what we are going to get is much better, however. It will be much easier to swing the one-handed design all over the place than it would be to use a two handed controller.

IGN said that they wanted to hold it with two hands at times, which means that you could have a game that required x and Y that would still be comfortable. Also, I think leaving the analog on the attachment is better than the wand -- imagine trying to move your character with your thumb while your hand is moving all over the place. It's going to be more precise with the analog stick in your left hand...also you wont want to take your hand off of the analog stick to hit an action button.

[Mario]

Ian, remember, it's not just a remote. I'm sure games like Metroid will use the analog thing, Super Smash Bros might even use the traditional controller! It's unfair to suggest games can't be improved with this new method until we've seen them. Also, there ARE things this new controller does better, precision aiming makes every single game where you aim ten times better, FPS's will now be ten times better. Tell me you'd rather use the GC controller than this new controller for an FPS, and i'll deem you officially insane.

Actually I think i've figured it out! Ian just ignores logic to increase post count in threads, thus making Nintendo more popular! Good job.

[Rancid Planet]

Okay, here's the deal. Ian is right as hell and many of you need to get out of Fanboyland because the park closes at eight and if you don't hurry the rides are going to shut down with you on them. And trust me you don't want to get stuck on Mario's Magic Mustache Ride all night. (That's right. I went THAT far for a gae joke. Deal with it.)

Now if any of you remember my initial post in response to the Rev's controller, you'll remember that I was very impressed by the device, not to mention Nintendo's bravery. (Although I think my exact wording had something to do with the size of Nintendo's testicles). And I still stick by that. I am VERY fond of this brave new concept. Nintendo is going to move games forward and I am so on board you could call me Amerigo Vespuci.

(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on. Let me explain my stance further...

I'm not insisting (nor do I think is Ian but I'll let him defend his own viewpoint) that Nintendo "hide" the remote controller. I'm simply saying that if the fact that the Rev can still be friendly to a more standard version of gaming isn't rubbed right into the face of your typical dumbass American, than all will be lost before the battle even starts. The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'. C'mon baby, we've gotta be tender with it or else it'll get sore...wait...I think I started talking about something else. Let me start a new paragraph here.

The Rev controller is new and to (possibly mis) quote Fry from Futurama "Original ideas make people feel dumb and new ideas make them feel scared" Should the remote controller be a key focal point of Nintendo's new system? HELLS YES SILENT BOB! It's the innovation that will drive the system's success in my opinion. But should Nintendo really let average gamers who only know one way to game and who aren't as likely to embrace change as many of us think that they would have to T-TOTALLY abandon the "old style" of gaming in order to get on board with the Rev? HELLS NO SILENT BOB!

That would be a huge mistake. ALWAYS underestimate the average consumer. Sony does and look just how great THEY'RE doing. What I'm getting at is this - Nintendo can and WILL change the future of gaming. But they're basically going to have to TRICK half the gaming population at large just to get them to TRY the damn remote controller. So how does Nintendo DO that?

Well I say that they focus on getting the "standard shell" out there to the gaming masses. Through tv advertisements. Ads in 'zines. And by packing the shell in with the Rev when it comes out.

Then "average joe" gamers can slowly catch up to the notion that Nintendo has given us. That the "motion sensor dealy" they were so afraid of is really what is going to kick ass about the Rev. Then once the mainstream gamers have gotten used to the idea, Nintendo can go about business as usual. i.e. making great games and not advertising them enough.

I understand that many of you feel that by acknowleding any kind of other control system besides the "nun-chukus" for the Rev in public would undermine it's genius. But you are wrong, and stupid.

This type of Revolution would even scare Lenin off. Nintendo must ease this great new concept into the gaming world, not cram it down it's throat. That will only make the gaming world gag and...damn I'm doing it again.

Anyway, do any of you get what I'm saying? Quit living in Fanboytasia and come back down to Earth where people are dumb and easily frightened. Nintendo shouldn't HIDE the genius of their controller. But they SHOULD try and get it out there to people so they will at least give it a chance. Embracing the standard shell controller is the only way to do that.
 

[Mario]

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(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on.

But the thing is, this "remote" is LESS of a change for normal people than learning a controller layout is. These people represent the new market Nintendo is going for, THAT is the way they should advertise it!

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The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'.

I agree, the GAMERS hand, most people aren't gamers!

Showing the traditional controller to the masses will scare them off, no matter what else you show them afterwards, it's like people being scared to play Kirby Air Ride, even though it uses one button, because they just look at the controlling and think "no way".

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: Mario

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(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on.

But the thing is, this "remote" is LESS of a change for normal people than learning a controller layout is. These people represent the new market Nintendo is going for, THAT is the way they should advertise it!

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The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'.

I agree, the GAMERS hand, most people aren't gamers!

Showing the traditional controller to the masses will scare them off, no matter what else you show them afterwards, it's like people being scared to play Kirby Air Ride, even though it uses one button, because they just look at the controlling and think "no way".

Firstly, Nintendo would be idiots to ONLY go after new gamers. I mean that is a key to success no doubt. That's why I said that Nintendo shouldn't hide the "remote" just make it known that there ARE standard controller options available. The balance will be tricky indeed. That's why they have to market the damn thing so precisely. To TWO different audiences. Granted Nintendo suck at marketing but it IS possible. Just tricky like I said.

No matter how much the market increases next gen, gamers will out number new-gamers by quite the large margin. I just hope Nintendo don't forget that. They can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket me thinks.

Besides, I'm not insisting that Nintendo constantly push the shell pad, just a lot at first to get the people who already play games to acknowledge that Nintendo haven't "totally lost it". That kind of bad word of mouth could kill them in a hurry.  

[Mario]

They AREN'T only going after non gamers, hence the standard controllers EXISTANCE. I just don't think they should advertise it in front of the remote, that's all. Gamers who want the standard controller will read magazines, browse the internet, everyone who cares about it will already know it exists, no need to shove it in their face in ads while pushing others away at the same time. It will be hard to find a fine balance, but the number one priority I think should be showing the masses that all you need to do to play is move a remote around.

[PaLaDiN]

Rancid, you don't get it.

I've shown this controller to people who have stopped playing games completely and all I get from them is overwhelming enthusiasm.

You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES.

Go ahead, try it out. And Ian, you're gonna have to find more than just your mother as a counter-example.

All Nintendo needs to do for the people who already play games is to tell them they can still play them the same way. That's it, end of discussion. "Wait, does this mean I can't play games the same way?" "No, you still can" "Oh good, that's a relief" the end.

Where Nintendo faces an uphill battle is showing this remote to as many people as possible, people who have stopped playing games, people who don't play games at all, just show them what playing games is like and they will get addicted. There's so many people out there who need to get addicted to videogames, but they will never get addicted to videogames if the face of videogames stays the same.

That's what could happen here, Nintendo is trying to change the face of videogames, they're trying to change what people who do not play games see from the outside looking in. Instead of seeing kids who still haven't grown up mashing furiously at the buttons of some scary thing in their hand, they see their kids performing the actions that are carried out on screen. With the new controller, what they see goes from "playing those weird games" to "fishing" and "chopping vegetables". And you can choose not to believe the possibility of that ever happening (there really is no precedent for this kind of thing, who knows, it could quite possibly bomb) or you can disagree with that idea like Ian, but you can't fault them for trying to share games with more people, especially not when you can still play the games you want to play. Traditional games will still be made whether Nintendo pushes them or not. Count on it. But are you telling me all Nintendo should make is traditional games when they so obviously want to try something new?

Now you're just being selfish.

And don't fool yourself. Pushing the traditional controller is suicide for the freehand controller. That is the marketing equivalent of Nintendo saying "we screwed up, but all isn't lost". If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well I dug up an article at 1-Up.com that IMO proves that change has done more to help expand gaming, not hurt it and guess what? Most of the change came from Nintendo, and that is why I'm excited for their next system! I found this quote to almost allign perfectly with people's worries about Revolution's controller, and was in regard to the analog stick "And by showing off the new controller with a polished (but not complete) version of Mario 64, Nintendo showed the killer app that made the thumbstick more than a gimmick." Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? A top secret controller, that when revealed was first seen as a gimmick!

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3143627  

[wandering]

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All Nintendo needs to do for the people who already play games is to tell them they can still play them the same way. That's it, end of discussion. "Wait, does this mean I can't play games the same way?" "No, you still can" "Oh good, that's a relief" the end.

Where Nintendo faces an uphill battle is showing this remote to as many people as possible, people who have stopped playing games, people who don't play games at all, just show them what playing games is like and they will get addicted. There's so many people out there who need to get addicted to videogames, but they will never get addicted to videogames if the face of videogames stays the same.

Exactly. We're used to our controllers, hardware, games, etc changing all the time. Non-gamers are the scared, change-fearing ones who need extra consoling.

I doubt Nintendo will have to 'trick' gamers into using a fun an intuitive device like the freehand controller by wrapping it in a traditional shell. What they will have to do is trick non-gamers into getting into the complex world of videogames, and they can do that with the aforementioned fun and intuitive freehand controller.

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Rancid, you don't get it.

I've shown this controller to people who have stopped playing games completely and all I get from them is overwhelming enthusiasm.

You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES.

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm worried about. I'm sure the controller will entice people to play who haven't played before or who have stopped playing. No probelm there.

But average gamers are going to piss themselves as this remote controller makes the news rounds. I have no desire to see the standard pad surpass the remote controller in the public's viewing eye. It just needs to be made clear that it is there. That's all I was saying.

Nintendo has to pull off quite the chess game here. They have to show off the motion sensing abilities of the new controller while at the same time, remind people that developers won't be limited by those abilities. As I said before. It's tricky. But I think Nintendo can pull it off.

My only complaint here is that a lot of Nintendo fans seem to be of the opinion that the "remote controller" will somehow be damaged in reputation and use if the standard pad is paid much attention to. While this might be true to some very small degree, I'M more worried about the Rev never getting off the ground because the majority of possible customers might see only the "remote controller" and it's functions and feel that the gameplay of Rev's games might be limited by it. Of course that's bogus but as I said earlier...never overestimate the average gamer. They are, for the most part, scared of change and QUITE uninformed.

In an ideal world. The Rev's controller would be automatically embraced. But in the real world it's going to take some subtle manipulation to get the advantages of the controller through to the general gaming public. As I said before it's THAT group that needs to be focused on. Nintendo will only win over so many non-gamers. Most non-gamers don't play games because they have no interest in it at all. Not because of the "scary controllers". Oddly enough it's gamers THEMSELVES who are so damned easily scared by new ideas. And I don't think all of you get just HOW uninformed about the standard pad that most of them will remain unless it is really brought to their attention.

My concern is only for the success of the Rev AND it's wonderful new controller. I'm just thinking realisticly here. I want the best for Nintendo and a broad install base will ensure them lasting success for any and all Revtastic controller ideas that they may have in store for us in the future.

I think you guys, Mario and Paladin, are pretty much on the same page as me. But you may be giving too much credit to average gamers concerning their level of awareness with Nintendo. Nintendo has been largely written off in their mind's eye. So they won't be looking for any new info about the Rev that isn't repeated to them over and over through proper advertising. "You can still play games with a controller you're used to....you can still play games with a controller you're used to." I'd like that message pumped into their dreams at night if possible.

I mean really, the gaming public at large (the biggest possible audience for the Rev) are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, stupid. They are the ones that Nintendo have to worry the most about winning over. They will be the hard sell.

As for the non-gaming sect? I suggest several on-air ads during daytime soaps and talk shows that show ONLY the "remote controller". I think that women and old people are going to go NUTS for the Rev. But then again, advertising their way into the homes of the world is Nintendo's job. Bitching about the problems they may face is MINE.  

[BlkPaladin]

It was said during the time when the the Gamecube controller was first reveiled that Nintendo creates it controlers with the primary directive of centering  on a gameplay device or technique they want to focus on. Durning that time there wasn't that much interest in the controller by the third parties. With the DS it seemed the publishers where looking elsewhere (the PSP) while the developers raved about the possiblities.

With the revolution it seems quite a few of the "major" publishers and I have read a few developers reactions and it seems very positive. The only problem is that Nintendo didn't come out with a playable game showing it in live action so the consumer base's reaction is lukewarm. But it was simular to the DS and its doing pretty well especially are a few games that capitolize on the unique experience that the DS can offer have come out.

I'm going to take a moment and take a step back and summerize a few things that are going to make this generation interesting.

First off from what I can gather from "hard" information and some of the grey musing from news sources such as this one, gamasutra, etc, and from publishers reactions, it seems that Nintendo is trying a simular approch that Sony used with it's PSX console. Name removing barriers both hardware and more than likely monetary that would normally disallow such from developing extensivly for a game console. (If they open up the download service for developers they can almost effectivly eliminate the publisher's take on a developer's title [if done right])

The one thing that Nintendo is giving developers that Sony didn't is something to take creative lisence with.

And Sony seems to be taking some things from Nintendo's book during the N64 days, namely raising the barrier in terms of development costs. And using what will more than likely be the most expensive media out of the three consoles.

While I am not going to say the same out come will happen. It somewhat appearent that Sony is going to lose a portion of their consumer base to the other two companies. So they have the most to lose. (They can not have a launch simular to the PS2's. (It would help if they make their product more durable.)

So Nintendo can capitolize on the Revolution's design if they handle it simular to the DS. (But more games in the US faster... One can hope.)

[Dirk Temporo]

The only reason the so-called "veteran" gamers are against this controller is that they've been playing games so long, they have a box. And anything outside the box scares them, because they're so comfortable with everything insidew the box. And trust me, this new controller is WAY outside the box. I think non-gamers and casual gamers will adapt very well, but Nintendo's gonna have to do some killer marketing to get the hardcore crowd to decide to give it a go.

[Bill Aurion]

The funny thing is that all Ninty has to do is show off a FPS being played with the controller and they are about 90% there...

[kirby_killer_dedede]

It's almost as if they focused on making the controller FPS compatible, because SHOOTING IZ MACHURE.

[BigJim]

I believe Nintendo needs to market the controller differently to different people. It's that simple. (Well, maybe it won't be simple.)

There is no freaking doubt that Nintendo needs to get this in people's hands to show them how they are changing the game. However, that alone is not going to be enough. They really need to stand up and demand everybody's attention. Compared to the number of people that see TV ads, nobody went to one of those GameCube tour parties they conducted way back when. They need to do both. They need store kiosks. And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH. Remember all the complaining when Nintendo didn't start any concerted marketing effort until the September before GameCube's launch?

Anyway, I think it's possible to market to everybody. Picture this:

Cut to the Revolution logo. A 30-something picks up the controller. Looks at it curiously. Hits the power button. Cut to footage of a Mario game or something fairly tame. Cut back to the player, bopping the controller up and down with one hand. Convey the idea of simplicity.

Cut to someone attaching the analog stick dongle. Cut to a FPS-style game with more intensity than the first game. Cut back to the player, and it is now maybe a college or older teen player. Moving the controller around. Slashing. Shooting. Zooming in on their prey.

Cut to somebody attaching the "hardcore" gamer's controller. Cut to a very graphic and speed intense game. F-Zero, Wave Race, Zelda. Cut to the player and he looks like a teenager. Moving around excitedly in his seat. Moving the controller in all directions.

Cut to a graphic that says "Play your Favorite Classics" with a cut to SMB, Zelda, etc. Cut to the Revolution logo again. End.

In a nutshell, convey the "levels" of play and its universal possibilities for everybody. From newbie to hardcore. And you can make variations of the comericial, focusing on the different "levels" of play based on where you are advertising it... i.e. Focus on the remote controller for older demographics, etc.

Current gamers need to know they aren't being left behind in the shift. I think something like this would do the trick.

[Mario]

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And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH.

Eh? No point advertising it that heavily when people can't buy it.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: Mario

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And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH.

Eh? No point advertising it that heavily when people can't buy it.

 Awareness... giving word of mouth a head start...

[Mario]

But most (every system in recent history) systems sell out at launch anyway...

[BigJim]

Certainly the advertising should mushroom over time, but it should start earlier than 3 months if you are trying to convey such a change in the formula, or to try to stop some people from picking up another system instead. Kiosks and "parties" aren't expensive (compared to TV advertising). Start there and build upwards.

Edit: They could also bundle a very quick "Compatible with Revolution -- Coming this fall" with their Zelda commercials and whatever other Cube games are coming out in the next year.  

[Don'tHate742]

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Rancid said:

"Firstly, Nintendo would be idiots to ONLY go after new gamers. I mean that is a key to success no doubt. That's why I said that Nintendo shouldn't hide the "remote" just make it known that there ARE standard controller options available. The balance will be tricky indeed. That's why they have to market the damn thing so precisely. To TWO different audiences. Granted Nintendo suck at marketing but it IS possible. Just tricky like I said."

I don't think it would be tricky at all. I mentioned what a commercial could do a couple pages back, and it's simple. Mention the "remote" first, and get peoples attention by showing them what it can do with plenty of software examples. Then mention afterwards how it can turn into a more traditional style to play past generation (and of course, show past generation examples like goldeneye and Super Mario Land.

Simple.

[Stimutacs Addict]

if nintendo just edits that trailer by showing specific games for each one of those gamer's actions, they could market that thing with no problem. Hell, they can add a little snippet at the end of Ian and Rancid plugging in the remote to play a 3rd party wrassler.

but i fear things will work the same way as they did with the DS. Devs are going to release games that don't use the tilt functions/use the shell controller and the media will btch that the remote is gimmicky and not being used for the right reason..  
plus you guys are predicting death for nintendo;;;; remember Xbox's fatty controller? you dont see that ANYwhere now (save for used bins and a couple fan's hands)... if America doesnt catch on to the wonders of the rod then nintendo can pack in the shell with teh system with no problem.   (((assuming that they beat Ps3 to launch, which would be a serious kick in the nuts to Sony.. who's going to buy a $400 ps3 when a $250 rev can offer much more active gaming 3 months earlier?>)))