Topic: A more "traditionally designed" controller for Rev?

[Rancid Planet]

Gamesindustry.biz thinks so

And I have never known them to lie or be wrong about didly OR squat.

The excerpt:

"Another device which will connect to the expansion port is a more traditionally designed controller, which will allow players to control the Nintendo back catalogue titles which the Revolution can play."

So what do you think my peeps?  

[BlkPaladin]

You know I was reading some of the transcript on that site. And it seems that Nintendo is trying to do what the PSX did for developers with the N64. Made a platform and encouraged the smaller developers to make games for it and try to take as many as the barriers down as possible. Next generation is going to be very interesting indeed.

[Rancid Planet]

Not a bad point.

[PaLaDiN]

How would that work, exactly? Would the remote controller fit into the traditional controller somehow so there would be no dangling wires?

When I look at this thing I can't help but think of an airplane seat remote control... you know the kind I'm talking about if you've seen it. I can see this controller fitting horizontally into a traditional one in the same way, but I can't visualize what the combined controller would look like.

[Rhoq]

I have a feeling that there might be a more "traditional" Revolution controller as well. The remote control piece could slide into the underside of it, connecting inside the controller (no dangling wire) and use the "B" button on the underside as a trigger for the controller. The entire thing wouldn't be any larger than a WaveBird controller.

[Rhoq]

IGN has the Revolution controller "Teaser video up. Seeing it in action (though no game footage is show at all) looks very promising...

http://cube.ign.com/articles/651/651334p1.html

[Michael8983]

Basically, I think what we're seeing is the core on the new controller.
Something simple and sleek to attract those non-gamers Nintendo has been clamoring for. But I do think there will be a standard controller that attaches to it. Nintendo probably didn't show it for two reasons. The first being that it wanted to focus on the new technology the controller would allow. The second being that they haven't completely decided what it will look like yet. If you think about it, this really makes sense. Having the motion detection simply implemented into a normal controller would completely destroy Nintendo's goal of attracting non-gamers and games that rely heavily or even entirely on the motion detection would be hampered by a dozen or so buttons and analog sticks. I speculate the system will come standard with the core remote, the corded analog stick, a standard controller that will firmly attach to the core, and a mic. Different combinations of these accessories and future accessories (touch pad, etc..) will allow for a multitude of unique game styles as well as ALL traditional ones. Many of those traditional games will actually be exponentially better with the new motion detection in addition to the standard buttons.
I believe that while some multi-platform games may lazily rely on the standard controller accessory, many games will actually be tweaked to work the core controller. If you think about, just about everythink the standard buttons and analog sticks have done in games these past generations could be adapted to the motion sensing techlogy. I think as more developers come to utilize the technology, we could eventually see the standard interface become truly obsolete. It would simply be a mistake for Nintendo to retire it before developers are ready to let go of it.

[Don'tHate742]

All Nintendo really needs to do is redesign their "remote."

That analog stick attachment looked like the most comfortable and best shaped controller yet. If they just took that controller and added all the functionality of the remote, it would be perfect.

Or better yet, why can't they simply split a GC controller in half? Add gyration to the right half and be done with it.

[Bill Aurion]

Do I need to post this everywhere?

Eurogamer: How is the controller going to work with games that aren't designed specifically for the Revolution - multi-platform titles and so on?

Jim Merrick: We're producing a classic-style expansion controller, based on traditional designs like the Gamecube controller. It's like a shell with a hole in the top into which you slot the freehand-style controller, and then you can play third-party ported games, and retro Nintendo games you've downloaded.

[ShyGuy]

That was a great interview with Jim Merrick, I wonder if the rev controller will slide in horizontal or vertical?

[Bill Aurion]

Considering the motion sensor is on front of the controller, it'll most likely slide in through the top...

Like such... (except put the face buttons in a more N64 format)

[Don'tHate742]

From Revo-Europe...

Quote
More glowing comments were given by Hideo Kojima of Metal Gear fame and a representative of Square-Enix during Iwata's keynote address. "'You've done it!' was my [first] impression! This was totally unexpected, I was pleasantly suprised because the controller is comfortable, and yet provides something brand new." He talked of how the NES controller defined the controllers we see today - held in both hands with A and B buttons. "Even though it was a suprise to me, once I had held the controller I quickly understood how it could be used."

Good news all around...

[foolish03]

yeah nintendo said it would be able to play cross platform games via an expansion controller.   Its in gamespots video review.  

[Hostile Creation]

They better make the expansion really cheap, and preferably packed in with a console (one controller, one standard shell, one console).  That's all I'm saying, but it's good to know this particular problem is solved.
Can't wait to see the design, though.

[foolish03]

i think they said the analog expansion will come packed in with revo.  Not sure about the traditional controller.

[nolimit19]

i hope there is a more tradition controller. i like the 4 button system, and i dont think the new more complicated games can get by on 2 buttons...what is nintendo thinking.

[Hostile Creation]

You realize the D-pad on the remote-controller can be used as face buttons, right? (in fact, I'd like them to change them to face buttons)
That means four buttons, plus the large A buttons, so five easily accessible buttons.  Not to mention three, I believe, triggers.
And then there's the two buttons down at the bottom, if you need them for something, and start and select.

[TMW]

Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
i hope there is a more tradition controller. i like the 4 button system, and i dont think the new more complicated games can get by on 2 buttons...what is nintendo thinking.

Urm...the remote has 4 buttons... the two "a b" buttons, a larger A and the trigger B.  Plus, with the analog stick, that adds two more.

Oh gawd. I just realized.  All of my kooky friends who call controllers "remotes" will be vindicated.  

[The Omen]

Quote
i hope there is a more tradition controller. i like the 4 button system, and i dont think the new more complicated games can get by on 2 buttons...what is nintendo thinking.

Listen closely:  You can move the controller in different directions to do diffferent things on screen.  There is no need for the buttons if you can actually perform these functions.

[Pale]

The only thing nintendo needs to change IS to put four buttons at the bottom.  It needs the ABXY set up down there.  Right now turning the controller on the side makes for a perfect NES controller.  There is no reason it shouldn't make for a perfect SNES controller as well.

[nolimit19]

i understand all that, but i think this would be hard for certain games...especially any game where you need to do quick combos or hit multible buttons at the same time. i would still like to see more than one button at the top of the controller.

[Pale]

Hmm, I just had another thought.  How many games would use both a right d-pad and right buttons at the same time?  They should add 4 more buttons to the bottom... then also make it so the controller could be held upside down as well.  

[ThePerm]

i thought the  thing at the  top was just an infrared thing f or turning  your rev  on.... i hope i ts  no other use  but that because i  absolutely positively hate infrared

[nolimit19]

i just think this is unnecessarily innovative. adding the tilt function is cool, but having such a dramatically different controller will only chase away the traditional gamer...which is an video game companies base. i will most likely still get a rev. i hope its awesome, and i hope my initial reaction to this controlelr is wrong and short sighted, but...i think this is a bad move....unless they add more buttons.

[Don'tHate742]

Ya that is all it is....

I don't know what people are talking about when they say it can't work for HD's because the sensor is too small....WHAT?!

Nintendo has tested this on screen sizes that are simply hard to imagine (have you ever seen a 100" HD-flatscreen?)/

What tells the REV that the controller is being flicked or wiggled or whatever is the gyration inside the controller and the information being sent out ala the WaveBird.

It is wireless and has nothing to do with infrared. RF people, RF....(though I think they should use WiFi....maybe it is WiFi?).

[Bill Aurion]

It's like you people are retarded..."OMG WHERE IS TRADITIONAL CONTROL?"  How about you read the bloody BOLD PRINT A FEW POSTS UP!?

[ThePerm]

the infrared sensor is  for turning on the revolution

[Renny]

There is a bar that is placed in front of the TV. I assume this means that the remote determines movement by timing differences in the signals sent from the bar at each end, a la GPS. This will work regardless of how large or what technology your display is. So no gyros unless they are used in tandem with this system, such as for more accurate rotation. Also it will definitely not use infared for game control. I kind of doubt it will need it at all, unless it's to save energy when simply turning on the system or using multimedia functions.

[pudu]

Allright one more time here to make sure everyone gets it clearly.  This is from the Eurogamer interview with Jim Merrick:

Quote
Eurogamer: How is the controller going to work with games that aren't designed specifically for the Revolution - multi-platform titles and so on?

Jim Merrick: We're producing a classic-style expansion controller, based on traditional designs like the Gamecube controller. It's like a shell with a hole in the top into which you slot the freehand-style controller, and then you can play third-party ported games, and retro Nintendo games you've downloaded.

So there's that option - but even while it's inserted into the classic-style shell, the freehand controller will still be able to sense positioning and so on, so there are more options too.

It's something that's just as true for the DS - not every game uses the DS's unique features. But some multi-platform titles do, like The Sims 2 for example. We hope other developers will do the same and look at ways their multi-platform titles can make use of the Revolution's features.

What I hope is that the "classic-style" controller is bundled in with the "freehand-style" and "nunchuck-style" controller.  This would allow for all ports to be possible and also custom/unique games to be made using the new freehand-style controller.  Also, when the free-style controller is inserted into the classic-style controller it will still be wireless and have positioning sensing ablility.  This way you would have the best of both worlds.

Some issues with this would be:

-lazyness:  A bundling of the "classic-style" controller would make it easy for 3rd party developers to fall back on old-school controls.  What we might see a lot of is old-school controls with some added positioning features.

-price:  this could drive up the price of the console quite a bit (having to include the main controller and 2 expasions

-confusion:  could be counterproductive for Nintendo because consumers might not understand how everything works and what to use when.  Also, how will they sell the controllers seperately?  Will they sell the expansions seperate or bundled together?  If buying them seperate someone would have to by an addiitonal 9 separate items for 4 player action on all games.

I would also like to discuss an idea I heard on another forum.  If they wanted to they could release the classic-style expansion separately and bundle it with a certain amount of game downloads.  This way they would be making money for downloads simply off of controller purchases and people would be getting more for their money.  It would all make a bit more sense (although not all would want to DL old games).
 

[Bill Aurion]

"-lazyness: A bundling of the "classic-style" controller would make it easy for 3rd party developers to fall back on old-school controls. What we might see a lot of is old-school controls with some added positioning features."

You could have said the same thing for the DS, yet devs are still trying their hands on new things...

[Artimus]

I wish the publishers would just have guts and not require some crappy appeasment controller.

I hate video game makers. They're totally unimaginative.

[Stimutacs Addict]

Artimus, are you serious? I'm thinking that devs that didn't already know are pretty excited about the possibilities they can include in their FPSers and... hey, what the heck to developers make nowadays?

oh yea, now in GTA you can actually pull people out of the cars!

[Artimus]

If they actually do that, sure. But if we just get a bunch of bloody ports with idiotic mini-games then I'll be very very mad. Publishers more than developers are to blame, but this is what happens when the people running the show care about profits not actual games.

[KnowsNothing]

Woah, I missed an entire page, ignore this post.

[Rellik]

I honestly don't think laziness will be a problem among developers.

I think EVERYONE who has any sense in them senses the gravitas of this innovation, and how much fun it could be if used properly - and I think most people would also agree that it doesn't lend itself to every type of game.  Some developers will choose not to take advantage of the new innovations - that doesn't take away from those who do put it to real use.  By including an "gamepad shell" to make the controller more suitable for certain types of games, we, the users, simply get more options - this is a very positive thing (as long as there are no side-effects, such as increased price, or userbase limited by who has what peripherals and all varieties of that confusion).

So I think it's very short-sighted to condemn the gamepad shell attachment - you'll be out of luck if you want to play a traditional fighting game, or any of those old pleasures of non-wand-waving genres.  And don't forget the games from past Nintendo consoles!

[GoldenPhoenix]

I don't see why Nintendo can't include the controller attachment, along with bundling all the controller accessories together into one package. Heck MS is selling their wi-fi controller for 50$, I'm sure Nintendo could sell the remote ( the only area where things are pricey), analogue attachment, and traditional controller shell for under that price, because I have no doubt in my mind that MS is making a hefty profit from their price!  

[Rancid Planet]

The "standardized" controller is a good thing. Sure some developers will be lazy and just make games with this controller in mind instead of Nintendo's uber remote. But let me ask you this homeslices and homeslicets...

Do you really think that those same lazy developers would have made games for the Rev in the first place? I mean if they are SO lazy that they don't want to bother with motion sensor stuff then why would they have ever made games for the Rev at all? Answer: They wouldn't have.

The standardized controller is good. It will help Nintendo get those crappy ports that we always say Nintendo needs more of but then most of us don't buy anyway.

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rellik
- and I think most people would also agree that it doesn't lend itself to every type of game.

Like?

[KnowsNothing]

Seriously, I can't think of one type of game that couldn't benefit from this.

I just notcied something.  I'm probably way behind here, but in the video the controller's two bottom buttons are X and Y, while in the picture's they're a and b.  10 bux sex they go with X and Y

[Rellik]

Quick, precise fighters, for one - 2-d action games like megaman, castlevania, etc - many 3-d action games - any kind of game that requires either fast, precise action or is built on abstract concepts that concern themselves only with the standard type of controller will benefit from the ability to use a more standard button array.

Don't tell me you won't even miss holding a controller in your hands.  The Revo's new controller concept is fantastic, but hand-motions and gesturing don't lend themselves to EVERY game - a game like Resident Evil 4, Mario 64, Wind Waker, Pikmin, FPS's, Adventure games etc. would be AMAZING on the Revolution's new controller, since the control is meant to be natural, fluid, and accurate but not to a lightning-fast degree - but a game like Soul Calibur or Guilty Gear X/2 or Megaman X, even if they would benefit vastly from the motion sensing, still will also benefit from the trappings of the controllers of yesteryear.

[Rellik]

Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Seriously, I can't think of one type of game that couldn't benefit from this.

I agree - but I contend that there are types of games that despite benefiting from the new type of control, would also be hurt by the absence of the old type of control (see above post for less succinct explanation).

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Seriously, I can't think of one type of game that couldn't benefit from this.

I just notcied something.  I'm probably way behind here, but in the video the controller's two bottom buttons are X and Y, while in the picture's they're a and b.  10 bux sex they go with X and Y

freudian  slip?  or a jk about sex is determined by x/y?

I think they'll go with ab because that's what all the press photos are and it would make sense if you can use the controller sideways as an NES controller as some people are guessing (I for one doubt it would be comfortable).  The promo vid probably used earlier prototypes and was made a while back.

[Artimus]

I don't think 2D games are a very good argument against the Rev. Developers have mostly abandoned them.

[Bill Aurion]

2D games aren't a good argument against the Rev because you can come up with new ways to play...

[Shecky]

"Nintendo also mentioned that the controller stick could be slipped inside other, more conventional controller shells, dance mats, bongos, or other peripherals."

"Of course, Nintendo has no intention of leaving their traditional audience behind, and Mr. Miyamoto is quick to add that the controller is already well suited for a number of popular genres. '[We aimed for something] that is simple enough for everyone,' he says, 'but also something that people who've been playing games for years will be satisfied with.'"

Source

Really this stick is getting around  Like a wireless Brain!  Should make the "shells" cheaper too.

From the keynote:
"Thinking about packing Revolution with the main controller and attachment, Iwata says."

My guess is that they plan to release the console with the stick and the 'traditional shell'.  I bet they're debating on packing in the analog attachment.  The analog atatchment isn't necessary if they had the traditional shell (although damn handy for FPS, and other things).  My guess is that extra controllers would come in a package of stick and traditional shell.  The analog eye drop attachment would probably be a separate purchase.  (MAYBE one would come with the system... I think that's what Iwata may have been referring too.)  

[stevey]

THIS CONTROLLER IS LIKE LOOKIN AT THE FACE OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!! No really there still so much hidden about it. I bet the remote will costed about $25~30 and the stick $5 the shell $5 rev bongos $5 and all add on $5 and then there no resone 3rd party wont make game for cheep add on that cost the same as gas will in 06.

[Shecky]

The traditional shell will likely resemble a gamecube wavebird too... given that they're promoting backwards compatibility they will want to be able to support cube games _out of the box_.

Edit: with the 100% possibility of more shells sold separately that look like they're older counterparts for that "old-school" feeling

[stevey]

"given that they're promoting backwards compatability they will want to be able to support cube games _out of the box_. "

so you dont need a cube controller for the rev to play cube game Ian I want the brain cell you kill from your bitch back.

[Bill Aurion]

I'm thinking they'll go with a more N64-style button format, considering they don't sell N64 controllers anymore, yet they do sell GC controllers...They'll also most likely give it a futuristic makeover...

[Flames_of_chaos]

How about a traditional controller with 6 face buttons and 3 or 4 triggers?

[Bill Aurion]

IGN has made a mock-up of what they think the Shell will look like here...Obviously the controller will be spiffed up in a sexy manner to match the system and remote, but it's very nice...

[PaLaDiN]

Yeah, I like that controller.

I always wanted a Wavebird with rumble.

[Rellik]

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
I don't think 2D games are a very good argument against the Rev. Developers have mostly abandoned them.

... who was saying that?  If you're referring to me, if you think I'm arguing AGAINST the Rev, then you haven't been reading anything, so I might as well stop here.

1. I'm not arguing against the Rev - I find the Rev to be simply astounding in its greatness, or at least the greatness of its potential.  My point is that what the Rev brings to the table doesn't erase the need that some games have for the current (now somewhat quaint) style of d-pad/analog stick and buttons setup.

2. I didn't mean just 2D games, but any game that takes to heart precision and speed, such as 2D Fighters and action games, but also 3D Fighters (Soul Calibur, DoA, etc) and 3D action games (Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, etc)

If you don't like those types of games, I understand - but as far as I know, Rev doesn't attempt to exclude those types of games from its repertoire, and in fact, actively embraces them through its virtual console.  Plenty of games would be ruled out if the Rev Remote-Control style controller were the ONLY method of control - that's the point, and I don't really see how it's debatable, but I don't mind being proven wrong, as long as you actually respond to what I say and not just what you imagine I say.

[Bill Aurion]

Please, people...TRADITIONAL SHELL... *sobs in corner*

[Ian Sane]

IGN's mock-up looks great.  I'm not a fan of the Cube button layout but it's acceptable.  Nintendo absolutely MUST include something like that with every controller and every console.  They include that and they're home free.  Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU.  The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product.  If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again.

[Artimus]

Competitor to what, Ian? They have no interest in competing with Sony and Microsoft, if you mean that.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
IGN's mock-up looks great.  I'm not a fan of the Cube button layout but it's acceptable.  Nintendo absolutely MUST include something like that with every controller and every console.  They include that and they're home free.  Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU.  The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product.  If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again.

I personally think Ninty will rearrange the button layout so it mimics the SNES...

[Ian Sane]

"Competitor to what, Ian? They have no interest in competing with Sony and Microsoft, if you mean that."

I've heard that PR speak too.  It's bullsh!t and everyone knows it.  "We're not competing" is PR speak for "we suck at competing with these guys and our marketshare is the sh!ts."

[Stimutacs Addict]

how can nintendo not compete with sony and microsoft? they are hitting the market with a more unique  product at a cheaper price that will undoubtedly offer the best controls for western styled games (by that i really only mean FPSers)... throw in some killer graphics and you have a surefire sell

[Rancid Planet]

Indeed. I HATE that "we don't view Sony and MS has competition" crap. They ARE competition whether or not Nintendo acknowledge it. And they do, behind closed doors. I wish people wouldn't buy EVERY line that a Nintendo rep delivers. A lot of that is just business jargon my peeps.  

[pudu]

The way I see it is simple.  The left side of the "shell" controller could be much like that of the wavebird with the analogue stick and a D pad.  The right side contains 6 face buttons in a diaganal pattern similar to that of the N64.  They could either all be of the same size or the top/right four could be slightly smaller then the bottom/left 2 to be more similar to the N64 setup.  Also, two of the buttons could be indented in like the SNES controller was.  These buttons could be used as an NES, SNES, N64, and GCN buttons fairly well across the board.  Also, the right side would contain a "c-stick" but have it the same size as the other analogue stick.  The pad would contain two analogue shoulder buttons and two analogue or digital (z) trigger buttons.  The shoulders would be for SNES, N64, GCN and the triggers for N64, GCN.  The extra trigger would be to match the buttons of the competing consoles.

One of the main problems I can think of with this would be one of function for some N64 games.  Games like turok that required the N64's c-buttons for strafing may not be as confortable if the buttons were made larger.  If they opted to make 4 of the buttons smaller then the bottom two then this could be eliviated, or they could simply give the option of customizing your controls so you could map the strafe to your "c-stick", which could work probably atleast as good.

Lastly, something I'm more wishing for then seeing it as something that could actually happen, is them putting a feature in that will somehow change the letter and/or color on the buttons according to what console the game is meant to be played on.  Here are some ways I've thought about doing this:

-lights inside clear buttons that display different letters (not quite sure how it could work yet)
-lights that are different colors that will correspond to the colors of letters written next to the buttons (for example N64 could be represented with the correct blue, green, and yellow buttons.  All with the correct letters of the same colors next to the buttons)

Edit:  Just found some examples that illustrate how the buttons could be labeled.  Go >here<and look at mock up's 33 and 38.  One thing I want to mention though is that I think that the best way of doing it would find a way that is good looking and easy to understand but not too expensive.  Different colored buttons could be fairly cheap using LED's but to change the lettering gets a lot trickier.

I'm looking into light filters as an option that can block certain colors so that the different letters could be displayed simply by lighting up different colored LED's.  I know...IWATATON has taken over my life.

[wandering]

Well, I'm warming up to this traditional shell.

The nice thing about it is that it's presence probably improved the rev's controller design. The remote + nunchuck design is close to being the perfect controller. Without the traditional shell, then they would've had to have compromised it's beautiful simplicity by adding an extra d-pad, another analog stick, more buttons, etc, to the setup, just for the classic games (and small minority of REV games) that'll need them.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Then it's like the remote is a special addition to the controller like the Dreamcast VMU. The remote by itself will turn the Rev into a niche product. If they have something like IGN's mockup then they're a potential serious competitor again

If you're expecting the traditional shell to be what most games use, I'm afraid you'll probably be dissapointed. I highly doubt very many devs will opt out of the Revolution's revolutionary feature, freehand motion control, just so they can have  2 extra buttons and a stick.
I could be wrong, though.

Quote
Originally posted by: pudu
The way I see it is simple. The left side of the "shell" controller could.....
.....

I like your design. The GameCube's button layout would probably be annoying for non-gamecube games, and gamecube games could probably work with a more traditional button layout.    

[nolimit19]

i think they should replace the dpad with a joy stick, and put the dpad on the bottom with 4 buttons so you can play it sideways....seriously i dont get the current design at all. if you thought nintendo didnt get enough  3rd party support for the cube, just wait until the developers have to figure out how to adapt their games to this controller...hahahha.

[Bill Aurion]

The joystick idea is just as flawed as the "joystick for DS" idea...What happens when you wear your joystick down?  You'll buy a new remote?  Replacing the analog attachment will be MUCH easier and cheaper...

[nolimit19]

i was reading some of this thread and someone mentioned "barriers" for developers to make games for nintendos console. the biggest barriers are costs, not controller stylye. also, if this controller had been an extra that was sold seperatly for the cube, only the elite game player would have purchased it. i think thats pretty safe to say. normal people dont want to try different things in video games. only people that spend a lot of money on games would do that.

if they dont make some modifications, the rev may bite the dust from this decision.  

[KnowsNothing]

I don't understand why developers won't adapt anything.  First of all, there's the traditional shell.  Second of all, it's going to be just like developing for the GC, just mapping the controls to different functions....

[nolimit19]

well i just hope the shells are sold with the controllers, and not seprately.

[Mario]

It doesn't take long for devs to map different commands to different buttons, they could figure it out in a day. Games typically take what, a year to develop? It's nothing.

[nolimit19]

i was kind of joking when i said that...thats why i was laughing. i think the people that will have the biggest problem with the controller are the people playing the game.

also, lets say the shell isnt avalible with the controller and a dev just cant find a good layout for the buttons...you could potentially have a situation where a game is nearly unplayable with the standard controller.

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
i think they should replace the dpad with a joy stick, and put the dpad on the bottom with 4 buttons so you can play it sideways....seriously i dont get the current design at all. if you thought nintendo didnt get enough  3rd party support for the cube, just wait until the developers have to figure out how to adapt their games to this controller...hahahha.

We still don't know how far down into the "shell" controller the free-style controler will go.  If it goes far enough down into the controller to cover the Dpad then this could also be a reason why it's not an analogue stick (wouldn't reall work for sliding into something else).  As it is the controller face is relatively flat.  Also, like I've said and others have said in the past, moving with an analogue stick and with moving with motion sensing at the same time could possibly be quite difficult and awkward.

[nolimit19]

good points

[Shecky]

What's with all you people and the on/off  -  night/day thinking.

the "either, or" thinking.... instead of "this, and"

I think people are under the false impression that there will be "one shell to rule them all".  Shells may not be terribly expensive, but this whole peripheral thing is going to spin up quickly, especially once 3rd parties figure it out (or nintendo lets them in on how the stick interface works).  I _guarantee_ Nintendo itself has more than one shell coming.  I be they'll have one for the SNES, N64, and GC.  Maybe even one that tries to be a nice maraige of all of them...  This is a high revenue avenue for them, so they will take advantage of it.

Personally, I'm predicting a GC controller type shell, like the IGN mockup, being included with the system.  Reason being that they would want to support the GC games that you can *still buy* and just pop in your rev.  If you want to play those retro N64 or SNES games that you download, the GC controller is adequate (no bitching that C-stick != C-buttons... it's good enough for most games).  If you want a more genuine N64 or SNES pad, they'll likely have additional shells for purchase.

Now as for ports of games..... I think you'll see a lot of ports with multiple control schemes.

Why would a company, say EA, ditch the traditional controls and remove them completely?  They're going to want to experiment with what will work.  They would port to the Rev and add a control scheme that uses the stick, and maybe even one that uses the traditional shell + motion feedback.  Just like Metroid Prime 3 will likely include the traditional style controls.

If you don't think that all 3:
1. Full traditional
2. traditional plus stick input
3. stick or stick plus analog dongle

has their advantages... then your being unfairly biased.  Besides, everyone has different tastes.

Example: Madden:
1) Straight forward.  Same as it is on the other consoles using the traditional shell and ignoring any movements by the stick
2) One example, you can tie one of your receivers to the movements of your controller.  So you play normally and can trace a route with your controller for your receiver... want to cut left instead of the intended right? just move the controller left.
3) Not sure, but I'm sure you can come up with *several* pretty cool schemes... thing is what if EA doesn't quite get it right the first attempt with a football game on the console?  What if they get it right for half of the people, and half don't care for it.  Games in this mode will likely have different styles of play, and it may take a few iterations.  So it doesn't hurt to have 1 and 2.

I don't think you'll see developers skimp out on 3 because it's boils down to an input in the end (same way for the DS).  Figure out what movements mean what and write the routines.  Did Advance Wars ditch the standard controls and only go touchscreen? No, it would be foolish.  I think you'll see more of a problem with games that only support (3) and bypass (1) and (2) than the other way around.  (Of coures barring the games that don't make sense to have (1) and (2))

Don't be surprised when the Revolution comes with the capability to generically map movement controls to the older games.  A few templates if you will.  I'm guessing downloaded games will also have a way of specifying a map of the freehand controls to that particular game.

[Ian Sane]

"If you're expecting the traditional shell to be what most games use, I'm afraid you'll probably be dissapointed."

Every multiplatform game will use the shell if Nintendo includes it as a standard except for maybe a few oddballs early on that try to be cute and end up controlling like crap compared to their PS3/X360 equivalents.  Exclusives will probably be the only games that even use the remote's features.

Sales plays a big part in it though.  If Nintendo's initial remote games aren't well received the shell will probably become the standard.  How the non-gamer market that influenced this whole thing reacts to it will probably be the biggest factor.

I also think they should advertise the controller differently in the different regions.  In Japan it makes more sense to focus on the remote because the Japanese are more appreciative of wacky stuff and Japanese devs are way more likely to make use of it.  American devs are more likely to just port over PS3 games and American gamers don't like wacky stuff as much so I think the ads should treat the shell as the normal controller and the remote is a special part of it that you pull out for some games.  That trailer they showed would not go over well in North America.  I think it would make the Rev look too gimmicky.  I think a commercial that shows someone playing some of the games would work best.  Initially he would use the shell and then at one point, for the big innovative remote game, he pulls the remote out of the controller and everyone watching is all "wow".  That way it looks like a normal controller with something extra instead of a super insane remote controller that can't even play SNES games correctly.

[Mario]

No way, non gamers exist in America too, showing the controller first is just going to scare them off and destroy the entire point. Everyone who is a "hardcore gamer" and wants that traditional controller will already know about it, no need to advertise it.

[PaLaDiN]

I disagree, Ian. I think this thing would do a lot better if it was marketed as something new that can also be a traditional controller. The DS didn't have that luxury, it was just something new.

A traditional controller that can also be something new isn't going to attract anybody except the people who already like the traditional setup. Nintendo has got something Sony and Microsoft do not have, and they should market the hell out of it or next gen will just be a repeat of this gen.

I think the ideal advertisement for the States would be somebody snapping the ball in Madden with the remote, followed by somebody using the Metroid Prime 3 setup, followed by slotting it into the traditional shell to play a traditional game as an afterthought for the traditional gamers who already know about it.  

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
and they should market the hell out of it or next gen will just be a repeat of this gen.

Thank you for mentioning this gen  Ian wants Nintendo to market the traditional controller in the states.  How well did that work out this gen?  If Nintnedo just sticks to what they're doing now, how are they going to improve?  Nintendo has something new, let's embrace that.  The funny part is how Ian has expressed on multiple occasions that this gen is a disspointment because it doesn't "cater" to hime or soemthing, yet when Nintendo changes he complain that they should go back.....

Since advertising was brought up, I started thinking about muliplatform releases.  The Rev version will be different in most cases (dispite was Ian and others may think), are third parties going to advertise its differences or just mention that it's coming out for the Rev?  I think adverts for multiplatform games will (or: should)  just mention "with motion control for Nintendo Revolution" or something towards the end with a small clip of someone playing it.  Imagine the advert for the next bond game where at the end it just says "with revolutionary free motion control for Nintendo Revolution" and it shows someone having a blast while blasting away at the screen, it would show the differences between the systems and at least get people thinking about the Rev.

[wandering]

Quote
Every multiplatform game will use the shell if Nintendo includes it as a standard except for maybe a few oddballs early on that try to be cute and end up controlling like crap compared to their PS3/X360 equivalents.

Several companies have already commited to using the REV's new features. I'd like to think that they recognise that free-hand motion-controlled gameplay is the future. IN fact, I have a feeling they'll make REV games that use the shell about as often as they made N64 games that used the d-pad.

As for Rev games controlling like crap compared to ps2/360 games....it'll be the other way around, I think. Compared to finely-tuned motion control that can sense the every movement of your hand, performing actions by fiddling with sticks and buttons will feel SO last decade.

Quote
American gamers don't like wacky stuff as much

I'm sorry, but FUN is universal.
And what's so whacky about being able to aim with precision in FPSes, move units around with ease in an RTSes, etc?

Quote
I think the ads should treat the shell as the normal controller and the remote is a special part of it that you pull out for some games.

NO, no, no, no, no no no no no no no no. And no. I'm sorry. The ability to play games in a fundamentally new way is the whole point of the console. Saying you should market it with the normal 'old school' controller as standard is like saying you should market the DS with GameBoy compatablity as the primary focus.

[Don'tHate742]

I agree with all those that say they should market the "free-style" controller as hard as possible.

If anything, they can just show the "wand" sliding into the controller shell at the end of the commercial, but only as it mentions that it can play games from past generations.

"With the shell attachment, the Revolution controller transforms into a suitable controller ready to play all past generation games, including the NES, SNES, N64, and Gamecube." -- During that you could show exactly how the controller fits into its shell, then people playing Super Mario, Super Punch Out! , Goldeneye, and finally Zelda: Twilight Princess, of course all wirelessly. This could all be showed in 10 secs or less.

Detailing the possibilites of the REV controller and showing examples is first priority. Once that's done, run something like I mentioned above.

If a commercial (or better yet, a before-movie trailer) like that ever saw the light of day, it would have people drooling.

[Artimus]

With a killer app this becomes moot. If Mario makes the wand seem amazing then it's an instant sell. Despite popular opinion, the N64 didn't fail because it was bad, it sold like crazy at first. It just fell apart half-way through. Mario 64 totally redefined games, and if Sony hadn't copied it they would never have had much success.

They just need a Mario Rev that makes people think "Wow...this is the next gen!"

[wandering]

Quote
"With the shell attachment, the Revolution controller transforms into a suitable controller ready to play all past generation games...

Ha, I love this idea especially because it would subtley get the message across that xbox and playstation are behind the times.

Quote
With a killer app this becomes moot. If Mario makes the wand seem amazing then it's an instant sell.

Agreed. Everything rests on Miyamoto's shoulder's, really. And I don't think we have to worry about him not delivering the goods.

[NotSoStu]

http://revshell.ytmnd.com/

[Ian Sane]

"The ability to play games in a fundamentally new way is the whole point of the console. Saying you should market it with the normal 'old school' controller as standard is like saying you should market the DS with GameBoy compatablity as the primary focus."

My attitude I guess just differs from Nintendo.  I see the remote as the scary thing that will freak people out.  I think it's very important that the remote is an addition to what already exists rather than a replacement no one asked for or wanted.  Change is scary.  You give people the slighest suggestion that games as they know them are unplayable on the Rev and they will bail.  And I think the concept is even more scary for non-gamers than the traditional controllers.  But then I've always thought the non-gamer approach was stupid to begin with.  I'm more in "damage control" mode, like the remote is liability Nintendo has to hide.

Let's put it this way.  If the Rev flops it will be because of the remote controller.  Therefore I think Nintendo should ease people into it more instead of "Surprise!  New way to play games!"  I think enforcing that traditional gaming is still available should be Nintendo's prime concern.  Otherwise they're basically telling everyone who likes games as they are to take a hike and scaring away traditional gamers is the stupidest thing they could ever do.  They could risk dumping a huge chunk of their existing fanbase over this in favour of an unproven non-gamer demographic.

Nintendo might not see the remote as an extra feature but they should.  Adding to the experience is good.  Changing the experience isn't.  This will bite them in the ass if they force this new method on everyone.

New Coke supposedly tasted better than old Coke but the second they said "we changed Coke" people freaked out.  "We changed Nintendo games" is going to freak people out.  Adding on to what already works is good.  Fixing what isn't broken sucks.

[Bill Aurion]

Changing the experience isn't.

If it's for the better, it sure is...

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"The ability to play games in a fundamentally new way is the whole point of the console. Saying you should market it with the normal 'old school' controller as standard is like saying you should market the DS with GameBoy compatablity as the primary focus."

My attitude I guess just differs from Nintendo.  I see the remote as the scary thing that will freak people out.  I think it's very important that the remote is an addition to what already exists rather than a replacement no one asked for or wanted.  Change is scary.  You give people the slighest suggestion that games as they know them are unplayable on the Rev and they will bail.  And I think the concept is even more scary for non-gamers than the traditional controllers.  But then I've always thought the non-gamer approach was stupid to begin with.  I'm more in "damage control" mode, like the remote is liability Nintendo has to hide.

Let's put it this way.  If the Rev flops it will be because of the remote controller.  Therefore I think Nintendo should ease people into it more instead of "Surprise!  New way to play games!"  I think enforcing that traditional gaming is still available should be Nintendo's prime concern.  Otherwise they're basically telling everyone who likes games as they are to take a hike and scaring away traditional gamers is the stupidest thing they could ever do.  They could risk dumping a huge chunk of their existing fanbase over this in favour of an unproven non-gamer demographic.

Nintendo might not see the remote as an extra feature but they should.  Adding to the experience is good.  Changing the experience isn't.  This will bite them in the ass if they force this new method on everyone.

New Coke supposedly tasted better than old Coke but the second they said "we changed Coke" people freaked out.  "We changed Nintendo games" is going to freak people out.  Adding on to what already works is good.  Fixing what isn't broken sucks.

You nailed it on the head. Damage control. Which is exactly why your point of view has little relevance: you don't like the controller and want it gone. That's like getting a Hussein to run United States tourism.

You keep mentioning the 'if it isn't broken' thing. The problem is that you don't care if the new way is better. 2D gaming wasn't broken, the dpad wasn't broken, does that mean we should just get rid of the analog stick as fast as possible? No.

You're a broken record Ian. I know very well even if everyone in the world realizes that this new way of play is so much better than the old that they immediately sell their 360s and PS3s, you'll sitll be bitching and moaning.

"Yes it's better, but the colours are wrong!"
"Yes it's better, but the old was ok too!"
"Yes it's better, but Iwata is ugly!"
"Yes it's better, but video games are a waste of time!"
"Yes it's better, but I'm still refusing to accept it because I'm Ian!"

[Caliban]

Oooooooooooooo comparing Coke with Games, Ian your insane, I'm saying this in a non-insulting and funny way btw. Well I don't see the problem of Nintendo adding more ways to play games (i do not agree it is change) and we have seen that with the DS.  

[PaLaDiN]

Ian, you do have a point, but only if the new way of playing games is worse than the old one. The problem is that you're going into damage control when there's no real evidence of damage yet.

Doing things your way will only label the new controller as a gimmick. The old way has already been advertised this gen and the last and the one before that... advertising it any more is futile because it's already a standard. Neither Sony nor Microsoft will spend much time advertising their controllers next gen because the concept is already out there and has already been advertised. At most, all I expect from them on that end is a blurb about "wireless freedom". They're not going to come out and say "You can control games the way you've done it for years now!" because the justified reaction to that is "so what?"

Nintendo's new controller is new and unproven and therefore must be advertised heavily to have the best chance of success. You're convinced that it's a gimmick so they should market is as such, but what you fail to see is that marketing it as such would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're telling Nintendo to say "Play games the way you always have! or if you want, try this weird surprise" instead of "Surprise, a new way of playing games! Try it out, you'll love it! And even if you don't like it, you can go back to playing them the way you always have."

Do you see what you're doing? You're trying to reassure people that the new controller is just a random Nintendo brainfart that will go away eventually, before they've even tried it. That's going to go over well.

Your coke analogy... Do you think New Coke would have sold better if they advertised old coke instead? Do you think old coke sales went down because of the people freaked out by new coke? Because Nintendo is offering both new coke and old coke. People end up hating new coke, Nintendo can still fall back on old coke. But don't ask them to throw new coke out there all alone, by itself, without some sort of advertisement, because that's just dooming it from the start and forcing themselves to fall back on old coke before new coke even gets a chance.

[stevey]

"Fixing what isn't broken sucks. "

YOUR F-ING INSANE!!! Ian video game are broke! The new game for the 360 are the same as the xbox but higher poly. If you dont see what wrong with that then go ahead and buy a 360 we kept the fun for the devoted failful genuine nintendo fanboys. if you still want to play nintendo buy a ds and feel why nintendo going to win the next-gen.  

[KnowsNothing]

I bet if Nintendo revealed the controller the way Ian wants them to advertise it, he would label the removeable remote as a "gimmick."  Or something equally insane.

Edit: oh whoops, paladin said it first

[Rellik]

I don't think the new remote controller is an "addition" at all - yes, it IS meant to replace the kind of controller we know and love, where applicable.

I see that people are saying that people will feel threatened by the "SURPRISE, whole new gaming paradigm!!" - I think Nintendo can avoid this if they just market it right.  It's not a hard concept for reasoning people to understand - I think they've really hit the nail on the head here.  The developers know it - even the 3rd party ones, even the ones who make generic sports games and first person shooters.  This is basically the holy grail, the gateway to the next stage in gaming - it's definitely NOT something you can call an "addition", like GC-GBA connectivity was.

I'm not saying it's going to be perfect, or that it will succeed - but the concept, the POTENTIAL greatness is the revolutionary part of it, at this point.  I say unleash it on the public and DEMONSTRATE to them why they need a Revolution - don't sheepishly pack it in as an "addition" to a standard controller.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I've been thinking through all the complaints about the REvolution controller, and we have to realize that change is what got us to the "traditional" controller in the first place. Do any of you remember that most games, in the time of Atari that a joystick was used? Or even before that things were less complex, change didn't require any damage control, in fact Nintendo was the one that kicked off the traditional controller in the first place. All I see the Revolution controller as is a controller that is a slightly larger step from the traditional joystick to a joypad whose main purpose is to better immerse the player in the game. Change didn't hurt NES, and I don't believe it will hurt Revolution.

[Artimus]

Nintendo was lucky because games crashed before the NES, so change was welcome. This time they have the innovation but no crash, so they have to prove how good it is, they don't get a benefit of a doubt.

Though reading all the hands on impressions must give everyone hope. IGN, Gamespot, 1UP all loved it. They said all it needs is full-fledged games. And if Nintendo can't manage that, they deserve not to run out of business!

[NRevolutionR]

I believe you mean to say that they WOULD deserve to go out of bussiness

[Don'tHate742]

All Nintendo has to do is show games?

Isn't that already Nintendo's main attraction?

I think we all bought a SNES/N64/GC because of Nintendo's philosophy of creativity and quality. If all they have to do to win supporters is show a game that's high in quality and deep in creativity and immersitivity(which they set the standard in), then I think we can all relax....sit back, and enjoy the show.

[BlackNMild2k1]

wasn't sure where to post this, but here looks as good as anywhere

Quote
Someone posted this in the Shack thread:

" "How does it compare to a mouse?"

From what I experienced, it seemed to be more precise than a mouse, but it's also much faster because it requires only a much smaller movement of the hand to achieve the desired effect. You just instantly point the controller at any part of the screen and bam!, that's where you're looking.

There is no lag.

There is no error.

It took a while to get used to the idea of how little effort is required to play a game with this controller. I kept wanting to lean forward and move the controller closer to the screen, and it took some practice to just sit back and just calmly move my hand ever so slightly.

At one point, someone said, "If you were to play a game with this against someone using a mouse, they'd have no chance against you." I had to admit it was true.

I've been using a mouse and keyboard for gaming for almost as long as I've been a gamer. I've logged over 80 hours so far in Battlefield 2 and I have a level 60 World of WarCraft character. If somebody had tried to tell me before now that a better controller would come along, I would have laughed at them.

But it only took me 5 minutes with the Revolution controller to realize that I don't need to use a mouse ever again.

Let's take a first-person shooter as an example. With a flick of the wrist, you can completely change your aim point from one corner of the screen to the other. Changing your aim point that way would require you to move a mouse all the way across a gamepad and could potentially take up to several seconds of pushing on a thumbstick with a standard console game controller.

Add to that the fact that the controller can correctly interpret roll (rotation of the controller clockwise and counterclockwise) and movement toward the screen or away from it, and you start to get an idea of the universe of new gameplay possibilities that Revolution games will be able to explore.

\from an attendee "

http://forums.3drealms.com

well I'm sold, where do I put down a deposit?

[Artimus]

The roll thing was something I though of earlier. Think how easy to turn around in an FPS. Just tilt it! Wicked.

[mantidor]

getting out the "Ian" in me I think that now we wont get revs controller fakes but rather fake impressions from supposedly people who have tried it saying how much it rocks/sucks and that that impression might very well be made up.

ps: no hard felings on Ian, Im always looking forward to read his posts even if they are so negative some times ^_^

[wandering]

Quote
"Change is scary."

Yes, but it's also necessary.
One of things I love about Nintendo is that they're the ones who instigate change and they're still successful, which is actually a pretty rare thing.

Quote
"Let's put it this way. If the Rev flops it will be because of the remote controller."

If the Rev succeeds it will be because of the remote controller.

Quote
"Therefore I think Nintendo should ease people into it more instead of "Surprise! New way to play games!""

At a certain point, when the water's a little a cold, you just have to jump in. Nintendo shouldn't ease people into the water any more slowly than they are already are. They're already giving us the controller info early so that we can get acclimated to it during the next 12 months. They're already providing people with the option to play using traditional styles. And they will almost certainly be enticing us to take the plunge with irresistible new software.

Quote
"Adding on to what already works is good. Fixing what isn't broken sucks."

Except you could also have argued that the atari joystick wasn't broken, that the d-pad wasn't broken, that silent movies weren't broken, etc. Almost a decade ago, Nintendo introduced analogue control on a 2-d plane. Now, they're introducing true 3-d control. The future is here and the possibilities are limitless. Sorry that it's also a little scary.

Fortunately for everybody, Nintendo’s introduced new video game standards before, and they're pretty good at it. They'll make sure the transition will go as smoothly as possible: First, they're giving people a traditional-style pad, (much like how they offered a mostly useless d-pad with the N64), and  second, they're almost certainly going to come out with an amazing Miyamtoto-designed Mario game or similar that will help everyone see the advantages of this new control setup.

 

[Ian Sane]

"If it's for the better, it sure is..."

If it's better then it's improving something, not changing.  I'm getting picky on wording here but there's a difference.  This isn't really "better".  It's really up to opinion.  You might like this new way of playing better than the old way but you might not.  It's just a different way to play games and how much "better" it is will differ for everyone.  Adding another feature to something that already is proven is easier to define as "better".  The same controller but with a remote addition IS better because it builds on something instead of replacing it.  With the shell the Rev controller does everything that could be done before plus more.  The remote on it's own can't do that.  It's just different and therefore isn't likely to be considered "better" by as many people as a mere addition to what already works would.

"I bet if Nintendo revealed the controller the way Ian wants them to advertise it, he would label the removeable remote as a 'gimmick.' Or something equally insane."

Not likely.  Adding to what was already there is what I wanted from the Rev controller.  I wanted assurance that I could play the games of the past as well as the future.  My biggest concern was that Nintendo was going to make something incapable of playing old games.  I voiced my concern on that when the "no A or B button" rumours came up or whenever someone suggested a bizarre design.  A normal controller with a new feature added is what I wanted.  The Rev controller may end up being that depending on decisions Nintendo makes from now until launch.

"we have to realize that change is what got us to the "traditional" controller in the first place. Do any of you remember that most games, in the time of Atari that a joystick was used?"

It's a little different.  A joystick and a d-pad are fairly similar.  The goal for both was to have digital movement in eight directions.  Every Atari game would translate to the NES fairly smoothly.  Analog control didn't replace the d-pad because it was too different.  D-pad games didn't work as well.  This is an even bigger change.  We're looking at movement replacing buttons.  That's a huge difference.  The transition from joystick to d-pad is much easier.  Did you ever have a problem playing arcade ports on the NES or SNES?  Not likely except maybe some fighting games.  But most of us would have difficulty playing Cube games with just the remote.

"Ian video game are broke! The new game for the 360 are the same as the xbox but higher poly."

Are Nintendo games broke?  That's what we're really talking about here.  Do any of you think in general that Nintendo's Cube games are broken and need to be fixed?  I don't give a crap if EA makes the same crap forever.  Nintendo's my favourite developer and, with a few exceptions, their games aren't broken.  I don't like the direction Sony and MS are taking gaming but this isn't how I want that to be fixed.  I want gaming to go in the direction Nintendo took it in their prime, back when something like Pikmin would have sold like GTA or Halo.  This isn't the solution.  This could kill gaming as I love it.  With Sega no longer in the console business Nintendo is the only console maker left who truly knows how to make brilliant games with the current model.  So if they change to some new model then there's no one left.

[wandering]

Okay, here's the thing, if you have faith in Nintendo's games, then why don't you have faith in the controller that Nintendo designed specifically to improve Nintendo games?

Quote
It's just a different way to play games and how much "better" it is will differ for everyone. Adding another feature to something that already is proven is easier to define as "better". The same controller but with a remote addition IS better because it builds on something instead of replacing it.

Yeah, but at a certain point.... look, you can have filet mingon, or you can have pizza. But you can't really have filet mingon pizza.

Quote
I want gaming to go in the direction Nintendo took it in their prime, back when something like Pikmin would have sold like GTA or Halo."

The problem is, pikmin didn't sell like GTA or Halo. How do you propose they should change this, if not by introducing an exciting new control scheme?

Further, I just don't understand how this control 'breaks' current control in any real sense. If the remote didn't have any buttons, then I would agree with you. But here, they've removed 2 buttons and an analogue stick and replaced them with a revolutionary new control device, because they felt this would make a controller all-around better. And I think I agree with them.  

[Artimus]

I think Nintendo's Cube games could sure as heck use a little more effort. Especially the Mario franchises. It's like they went from constant-delaying perfection to never-delaying near-perfection. So many Gamecube games need just that little extra polish (or finish in the case of Wind Waker).

And there is better. Because the old does still exist. The question is how much better can you make the same formula without a change? Sure there will always be new and fun games but innovation is way down. How many major console games have been innovative lately? Katamary Damacy?

Ian, if the new was is just as good then what's the problem? The system will still play your favorite classics (ALL of them) plus provide fresh new experiences, plus attract more people, plus do better for Nintendo, etc.

[Mario]

Quote
Do any of you think in general that Nintendo's Cube games are broken and need to be fixed?

Not at all, but they aren't going to disappear. Graphics expanded with the N64 and GameCube, now it's time for controls to expand. They can't "kill gaming" because GameCube, N64, SNES and NES games will STILL EXIST when Revolution comes out! In fact they'll even be playable on it! Want to play a traditional game? Play GC, N64, SNES or NES, want something new? Play a Revolution game. Oh yeah, and don't forget Twilight Princess is coming out, there's your traditional option.

Quote
Nintendo is the only console maker left who truly knows how to make brilliant games with the current model. So if they change to some new model then there's no one left.

Are you implying Nintendo wont be able to make brilliant games with the new model?

Honestly, if you want Nintendo to become market leader again, THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH. They can't compete by doing the same thing MS and Sony do, as this generation has shown.  

[Ian Sane]

"Want to play a traditional game? Play GC, N64, SNES or NES"

But those are games I've played before.  I don't want to play old games.  I want to play new games that use the current design model.  This is a very odd situation that we've never really dealt with before.  I want new ideas created using the more traditional system, if that makes sense.  You don't need a remote with only two buttons to make a new game with a new concept.

"Honestly, if you want Nintendo to become market leader again, THIS IS THE RIGHT PATH. They can't compete by doing the same thing MS and Sony do, as this generation has shown."

This generation doesn't prove anything.  The Cube failed because Nintendo made some of the most blatant call-it-a-mile-away STUPID decisions I've ever seen.  The Cube failed to improve Nintendo's market share because Nintendo had their head up their ass.  Nintendo lost to Sony twice because Nintendo f*cked up and Sony didn't.  When Nintendo does everything right but still can't compete with Sony then it's time to suggest a complete overhaul.  Nintendo CAN compete with Sony and MS.  They just have to have better marketing, be a whole bunch nicer to third parties, be less stubborn about stupid things, and not make dumb mistakes any idiot can spot ahead of time that later bite them in the ass.  Nintendo is their own greatest enemy.  Sony and MS don't have to do anything special.  Nintendo kills themselves.  Suggesting that this remote stuff is the right path is like suggesting that a fighter who ties his own arms behind his back should quit boxing.  Maybe he should try fighting with his arms untied first.

Besides I don't want Nintendo to be the market leader is they do so by changing into something I don't like which they very well might with all this non-gamer nonsense.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I could care less that NES came after the implosion of the gaming industry, change benefited it. History has shown that changes to traditional controls have helped the gaming industry more than they hurt it, a couple of these changes that come to mind is the analogue stick and pressure sensitive buttons. One other minor, but still significant change was the rumble pack. Honestly when you look at the Revolution controller it is not that different from the current generation of controllers it just has a different shape and 2 fewer buttons than the norm (that is not counting the two NES style buttons towards the bottom), what it does have is a new way with interacting games that could possibly help expand control in games such as FPS or even give a big boost to camera control which has been a nasty little troll that never quite got exterminated!  

[IceCold]

Quote
if you have faith in Nintendo's games, then why don't you have faith in the controller that Nintendo designed specifically to improve Nintendo games?

I think he believes that Nintendo didn't actually change it to improve games - they just wanted a way to separate themselves from Sony and MS, but "traditional" controls really didn't need to be fixed. Nintendo's games would work better with the old controls, and now because Nintendo has chosen to go with this, theey will have to adapt their games to it, and they could turn out worse. Am I right Ian?  

[Stimutacs Addict]

speaking of Katamary Damacy, did you guys know that they are making a version for PSP? I'm almost inclined to believe that Sony 'suggested' that they make that title for their handheld as opposed to a competitor's handheld that would much better suit the title.

I wanted what ian does -- I figured the controller would be a cube controller with a rounded B button and motion-sensing capabilities, no z button, and no c stick. Looking back, i think this would have been pretty crummy. I hear people complaining about rising game costs and one person even said that he'd wish they'd stop putting out consoles every time  a new processor or video card comes out. This is a perfect answer to their prayers. I really think that if nintendo makes sure they have one Western-oriented game at launch (aka new FPS and include goldeneye on the dowload service with new controls and throw in WiFi), America will be sold.   HOWEVER, they need to beat PS3 to the punch. no one is going to drop an additional $300 after a $600 PS3 purchase. Pretty much anyone who buys a Ps3 will be solely purchasing a Ps3 and sony knows it.

I think that what we are going to get is much better, however. It will be much easier to swing the one-handed design all over the place than it would be to use a two handed controller.

IGN said that they wanted to hold it with two hands at times, which means that you could have a game that required x and Y that would still be comfortable. Also, I think leaving the analog on the attachment is better than the wand -- imagine trying to move your character with your thumb while your hand is moving all over the place. It's going to be more precise with the analog stick in your left hand...also you wont want to take your hand off of the analog stick to hit an action button.

[Mario]

Ian, remember, it's not just a remote. I'm sure games like Metroid will use the analog thing, Super Smash Bros might even use the traditional controller! It's unfair to suggest games can't be improved with this new method until we've seen them. Also, there ARE things this new controller does better, precision aiming makes every single game where you aim ten times better, FPS's will now be ten times better. Tell me you'd rather use the GC controller than this new controller for an FPS, and i'll deem you officially insane.

Actually I think i've figured it out! Ian just ignores logic to increase post count in threads, thus making Nintendo more popular! Good job.

[Rancid Planet]

Okay, here's the deal. Ian is right as hell and many of you need to get out of Fanboyland because the park closes at eight and if you don't hurry the rides are going to shut down with you on them. And trust me you don't want to get stuck on Mario's Magic Mustache Ride all night. (That's right. I went THAT far for a gae joke. Deal with it.)

Now if any of you remember my initial post in response to the Rev's controller, you'll remember that I was very impressed by the device, not to mention Nintendo's bravery. (Although I think my exact wording had something to do with the size of Nintendo's testicles). And I still stick by that. I am VERY fond of this brave new concept. Nintendo is going to move games forward and I am so on board you could call me Amerigo Vespuci.

(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on. Let me explain my stance further...

I'm not insisting (nor do I think is Ian but I'll let him defend his own viewpoint) that Nintendo "hide" the remote controller. I'm simply saying that if the fact that the Rev can still be friendly to a more standard version of gaming isn't rubbed right into the face of your typical dumbass American, than all will be lost before the battle even starts. The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'. C'mon baby, we've gotta be tender with it or else it'll get sore...wait...I think I started talking about something else. Let me start a new paragraph here.

The Rev controller is new and to (possibly mis) quote Fry from Futurama "Original ideas make people feel dumb and new ideas make them feel scared" Should the remote controller be a key focal point of Nintendo's new system? HELLS YES SILENT BOB! It's the innovation that will drive the system's success in my opinion. But should Nintendo really let average gamers who only know one way to game and who aren't as likely to embrace change as many of us think that they would have to T-TOTALLY abandon the "old style" of gaming in order to get on board with the Rev? HELLS NO SILENT BOB!

That would be a huge mistake. ALWAYS underestimate the average consumer. Sony does and look just how great THEY'RE doing. What I'm getting at is this - Nintendo can and WILL change the future of gaming. But they're basically going to have to TRICK half the gaming population at large just to get them to TRY the damn remote controller. So how does Nintendo DO that?

Well I say that they focus on getting the "standard shell" out there to the gaming masses. Through tv advertisements. Ads in 'zines. And by packing the shell in with the Rev when it comes out.

Then "average joe" gamers can slowly catch up to the notion that Nintendo has given us. That the "motion sensor dealy" they were so afraid of is really what is going to kick ass about the Rev. Then once the mainstream gamers have gotten used to the idea, Nintendo can go about business as usual. i.e. making great games and not advertising them enough.

I understand that many of you feel that by acknowleding any kind of other control system besides the "nun-chukus" for the Rev in public would undermine it's genius. But you are wrong, and stupid.

This type of Revolution would even scare Lenin off. Nintendo must ease this great new concept into the gaming world, not cram it down it's throat. That will only make the gaming world gag and...damn I'm doing it again.

Anyway, do any of you get what I'm saying? Quit living in Fanboytasia and come back down to Earth where people are dumb and easily frightened. Nintendo shouldn't HIDE the genius of their controller. But they SHOULD try and get it out there to people so they will at least give it a chance. Embracing the standard shell controller is the only way to do that.
 

[Mario]

Quote
(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on.

But the thing is, this "remote" is LESS of a change for normal people than learning a controller layout is. These people represent the new market Nintendo is going for, THAT is the way they should advertise it!

Quote
The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'.

I agree, the GAMERS hand, most people aren't gamers!

Showing the traditional controller to the masses will scare them off, no matter what else you show them afterwards, it's like people being scared to play Kirby Air Ride, even though it uses one button, because they just look at the controlling and think "no way".

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
(Bigger than yo mama's) BUT, bottom line, change scares the everloving CRAPOLA out of people and Ian's point that Nintendo need to actually distract people away from the "remote controller" a little, is right on.

But the thing is, this "remote" is LESS of a change for normal people than learning a controller layout is. These people represent the new market Nintendo is going for, THAT is the way they should advertise it!

Quote
The remote controller needs to be eased into the American gamer's hand. Not just jammed into it with no lovin' before the rubbin'.

I agree, the GAMERS hand, most people aren't gamers!

Showing the traditional controller to the masses will scare them off, no matter what else you show them afterwards, it's like people being scared to play Kirby Air Ride, even though it uses one button, because they just look at the controlling and think "no way".

Firstly, Nintendo would be idiots to ONLY go after new gamers. I mean that is a key to success no doubt. That's why I said that Nintendo shouldn't hide the "remote" just make it known that there ARE standard controller options available. The balance will be tricky indeed. That's why they have to market the damn thing so precisely. To TWO different audiences. Granted Nintendo suck at marketing but it IS possible. Just tricky like I said.

No matter how much the market increases next gen, gamers will out number new-gamers by quite the large margin. I just hope Nintendo don't forget that. They can't afford to put all their eggs in one basket me thinks.

Besides, I'm not insisting that Nintendo constantly push the shell pad, just a lot at first to get the people who already play games to acknowledge that Nintendo haven't "totally lost it". That kind of bad word of mouth could kill them in a hurry.  

[Mario]

They AREN'T only going after non gamers, hence the standard controllers EXISTANCE. I just don't think they should advertise it in front of the remote, that's all. Gamers who want the standard controller will read magazines, browse the internet, everyone who cares about it will already know it exists, no need to shove it in their face in ads while pushing others away at the same time. It will be hard to find a fine balance, but the number one priority I think should be showing the masses that all you need to do to play is move a remote around.

[PaLaDiN]

Rancid, you don't get it.

I've shown this controller to people who have stopped playing games completely and all I get from them is overwhelming enthusiasm.

You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES.

Go ahead, try it out. And Ian, you're gonna have to find more than just your mother as a counter-example.

All Nintendo needs to do for the people who already play games is to tell them they can still play them the same way. That's it, end of discussion. "Wait, does this mean I can't play games the same way?" "No, you still can" "Oh good, that's a relief" the end.

Where Nintendo faces an uphill battle is showing this remote to as many people as possible, people who have stopped playing games, people who don't play games at all, just show them what playing games is like and they will get addicted. There's so many people out there who need to get addicted to videogames, but they will never get addicted to videogames if the face of videogames stays the same.

That's what could happen here, Nintendo is trying to change the face of videogames, they're trying to change what people who do not play games see from the outside looking in. Instead of seeing kids who still haven't grown up mashing furiously at the buttons of some scary thing in their hand, they see their kids performing the actions that are carried out on screen. With the new controller, what they see goes from "playing those weird games" to "fishing" and "chopping vegetables". And you can choose not to believe the possibility of that ever happening (there really is no precedent for this kind of thing, who knows, it could quite possibly bomb) or you can disagree with that idea like Ian, but you can't fault them for trying to share games with more people, especially not when you can still play the games you want to play. Traditional games will still be made whether Nintendo pushes them or not. Count on it. But are you telling me all Nintendo should make is traditional games when they so obviously want to try something new?

Now you're just being selfish.

And don't fool yourself. Pushing the traditional controller is suicide for the freehand controller. That is the marketing equivalent of Nintendo saying "we screwed up, but all isn't lost". If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Well I dug up an article at 1-Up.com that IMO proves that change has done more to help expand gaming, not hurt it and guess what? Most of the change came from Nintendo, and that is why I'm excited for their next system! I found this quote to almost allign perfectly with people's worries about Revolution's controller, and was in regard to the analog stick "And by showing off the new controller with a polished (but not complete) version of Mario 64, Nintendo showed the killer app that made the thumbstick more than a gimmick." Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? A top secret controller, that when revealed was first seen as a gimmick!

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3143627  

[wandering]

Quote
All Nintendo needs to do for the people who already play games is to tell them they can still play them the same way. That's it, end of discussion. "Wait, does this mean I can't play games the same way?" "No, you still can" "Oh good, that's a relief" the end.

Where Nintendo faces an uphill battle is showing this remote to as many people as possible, people who have stopped playing games, people who don't play games at all, just show them what playing games is like and they will get addicted. There's so many people out there who need to get addicted to videogames, but they will never get addicted to videogames if the face of videogames stays the same.

Exactly. We're used to our controllers, hardware, games, etc changing all the time. Non-gamers are the scared, change-fearing ones who need extra consoling.

I doubt Nintendo will have to 'trick' gamers into using a fun an intuitive device like the freehand controller by wrapping it in a traditional shell. What they will have to do is trick non-gamers into getting into the complex world of videogames, and they can do that with the aforementioned fun and intuitive freehand controller.

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Rancid, you don't get it.

I've shown this controller to people who have stopped playing games completely and all I get from them is overwhelming enthusiasm.

You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES.

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm worried about. I'm sure the controller will entice people to play who haven't played before or who have stopped playing. No probelm there.

But average gamers are going to piss themselves as this remote controller makes the news rounds. I have no desire to see the standard pad surpass the remote controller in the public's viewing eye. It just needs to be made clear that it is there. That's all I was saying.

Nintendo has to pull off quite the chess game here. They have to show off the motion sensing abilities of the new controller while at the same time, remind people that developers won't be limited by those abilities. As I said before. It's tricky. But I think Nintendo can pull it off.

My only complaint here is that a lot of Nintendo fans seem to be of the opinion that the "remote controller" will somehow be damaged in reputation and use if the standard pad is paid much attention to. While this might be true to some very small degree, I'M more worried about the Rev never getting off the ground because the majority of possible customers might see only the "remote controller" and it's functions and feel that the gameplay of Rev's games might be limited by it. Of course that's bogus but as I said earlier...never overestimate the average gamer. They are, for the most part, scared of change and QUITE uninformed.

In an ideal world. The Rev's controller would be automatically embraced. But in the real world it's going to take some subtle manipulation to get the advantages of the controller through to the general gaming public. As I said before it's THAT group that needs to be focused on. Nintendo will only win over so many non-gamers. Most non-gamers don't play games because they have no interest in it at all. Not because of the "scary controllers". Oddly enough it's gamers THEMSELVES who are so damned easily scared by new ideas. And I don't think all of you get just HOW uninformed about the standard pad that most of them will remain unless it is really brought to their attention.

My concern is only for the success of the Rev AND it's wonderful new controller. I'm just thinking realisticly here. I want the best for Nintendo and a broad install base will ensure them lasting success for any and all Revtastic controller ideas that they may have in store for us in the future.

I think you guys, Mario and Paladin, are pretty much on the same page as me. But you may be giving too much credit to average gamers concerning their level of awareness with Nintendo. Nintendo has been largely written off in their mind's eye. So they won't be looking for any new info about the Rev that isn't repeated to them over and over through proper advertising. "You can still play games with a controller you're used to....you can still play games with a controller you're used to." I'd like that message pumped into their dreams at night if possible.

I mean really, the gaming public at large (the biggest possible audience for the Rev) are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, stupid. They are the ones that Nintendo have to worry the most about winning over. They will be the hard sell.

As for the non-gaming sect? I suggest several on-air ads during daytime soaps and talk shows that show ONLY the "remote controller". I think that women and old people are going to go NUTS for the Rev. But then again, advertising their way into the homes of the world is Nintendo's job. Bitching about the problems they may face is MINE.  

[BlkPaladin]

It was said during the time when the the Gamecube controller was first reveiled that Nintendo creates it controlers with the primary directive of centering  on a gameplay device or technique they want to focus on. Durning that time there wasn't that much interest in the controller by the third parties. With the DS it seemed the publishers where looking elsewhere (the PSP) while the developers raved about the possiblities.

With the revolution it seems quite a few of the "major" publishers and I have read a few developers reactions and it seems very positive. The only problem is that Nintendo didn't come out with a playable game showing it in live action so the consumer base's reaction is lukewarm. But it was simular to the DS and its doing pretty well especially are a few games that capitolize on the unique experience that the DS can offer have come out.

I'm going to take a moment and take a step back and summerize a few things that are going to make this generation interesting.

First off from what I can gather from "hard" information and some of the grey musing from news sources such as this one, gamasutra, etc, and from publishers reactions, it seems that Nintendo is trying a simular approch that Sony used with it's PSX console. Name removing barriers both hardware and more than likely monetary that would normally disallow such from developing extensivly for a game console. (If they open up the download service for developers they can almost effectivly eliminate the publisher's take on a developer's title [if done right])

The one thing that Nintendo is giving developers that Sony didn't is something to take creative lisence with.

And Sony seems to be taking some things from Nintendo's book during the N64 days, namely raising the barrier in terms of development costs. And using what will more than likely be the most expensive media out of the three consoles.

While I am not going to say the same out come will happen. It somewhat appearent that Sony is going to lose a portion of their consumer base to the other two companies. So they have the most to lose. (They can not have a launch simular to the PS2's. (It would help if they make their product more durable.)

So Nintendo can capitolize on the Revolution's design if they handle it simular to the DS. (But more games in the US faster... One can hope.)

[Dirk Temporo]

The only reason the so-called "veteran" gamers are against this controller is that they've been playing games so long, they have a box. And anything outside the box scares them, because they're so comfortable with everything insidew the box. And trust me, this new controller is WAY outside the box. I think non-gamers and casual gamers will adapt very well, but Nintendo's gonna have to do some killer marketing to get the hardcore crowd to decide to give it a go.

[Bill Aurion]

The funny thing is that all Ninty has to do is show off a FPS being played with the controller and they are about 90% there...

[kirby_killer_dedede]

It's almost as if they focused on making the controller FPS compatible, because SHOOTING IZ MACHURE.

[BigJim]

I believe Nintendo needs to market the controller differently to different people. It's that simple. (Well, maybe it won't be simple.)

There is no freaking doubt that Nintendo needs to get this in people's hands to show them how they are changing the game. However, that alone is not going to be enough. They really need to stand up and demand everybody's attention. Compared to the number of people that see TV ads, nobody went to one of those GameCube tour parties they conducted way back when. They need to do both. They need store kiosks. And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH. Remember all the complaining when Nintendo didn't start any concerted marketing effort until the September before GameCube's launch?

Anyway, I think it's possible to market to everybody. Picture this:

Cut to the Revolution logo. A 30-something picks up the controller. Looks at it curiously. Hits the power button. Cut to footage of a Mario game or something fairly tame. Cut back to the player, bopping the controller up and down with one hand. Convey the idea of simplicity.

Cut to someone attaching the analog stick dongle. Cut to a FPS-style game with more intensity than the first game. Cut back to the player, and it is now maybe a college or older teen player. Moving the controller around. Slashing. Shooting. Zooming in on their prey.

Cut to somebody attaching the "hardcore" gamer's controller. Cut to a very graphic and speed intense game. F-Zero, Wave Race, Zelda. Cut to the player and he looks like a teenager. Moving around excitedly in his seat. Moving the controller in all directions.

Cut to a graphic that says "Play your Favorite Classics" with a cut to SMB, Zelda, etc. Cut to the Revolution logo again. End.

In a nutshell, convey the "levels" of play and its universal possibilities for everybody. From newbie to hardcore. And you can make variations of the comericial, focusing on the different "levels" of play based on where you are advertising it... i.e. Focus on the remote controller for older demographics, etc.

Current gamers need to know they aren't being left behind in the shift. I think something like this would do the trick.

[Mario]

Quote
And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH.

Eh? No point advertising it that heavily when people can't buy it.

[odifiend]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
And they need to do it SOONER THAN 3 MONTHS BEFORE LAUNCH.

Eh? No point advertising it that heavily when people can't buy it.

 Awareness... giving word of mouth a head start...

[Mario]

But most (every system in recent history) systems sell out at launch anyway...

[BigJim]

Certainly the advertising should mushroom over time, but it should start earlier than 3 months if you are trying to convey such a change in the formula, or to try to stop some people from picking up another system instead. Kiosks and "parties" aren't expensive (compared to TV advertising). Start there and build upwards.

Edit: They could also bundle a very quick "Compatible with Revolution -- Coming this fall" with their Zelda commercials and whatever other Cube games are coming out in the next year.  

[Don'tHate742]

Quote
Rancid said:

"Firstly, Nintendo would be idiots to ONLY go after new gamers. I mean that is a key to success no doubt. That's why I said that Nintendo shouldn't hide the "remote" just make it known that there ARE standard controller options available. The balance will be tricky indeed. That's why they have to market the damn thing so precisely. To TWO different audiences. Granted Nintendo suck at marketing but it IS possible. Just tricky like I said."

I don't think it would be tricky at all. I mentioned what a commercial could do a couple pages back, and it's simple. Mention the "remote" first, and get peoples attention by showing them what it can do with plenty of software examples. Then mention afterwards how it can turn into a more traditional style to play past generation (and of course, show past generation examples like goldeneye and Super Mario Land.

Simple.

[Stimutacs Addict]

if nintendo just edits that trailer by showing specific games for each one of those gamer's actions, they could market that thing with no problem. Hell, they can add a little snippet at the end of Ian and Rancid plugging in the remote to play a 3rd party wrassler.

but i fear things will work the same way as they did with the DS. Devs are going to release games that don't use the tilt functions/use the shell controller and the media will btch that the remote is gimmicky and not being used for the right reason..  
plus you guys are predicting death for nintendo;;;; remember Xbox's fatty controller? you dont see that ANYwhere now (save for used bins and a couple fan's hands)... if America doesnt catch on to the wonders of the rod then nintendo can pack in the shell with teh system with no problem.   (((assuming that they beat Ps3 to launch, which would be a serious kick in the nuts to Sony.. who's going to buy a $400 ps3 when a $250 rev can offer much more active gaming 3 months earlier?>)))

[NotSoStu]

Nintendo of America really has to fire every single god damned person in their marketing department. They need to show more gameplay in commercials, and less people playing GBAs with graffiti in the background and "WHO ARE U!!!???!" written everywhere.

[Hostile Creation]

You have no idea what advertising is, do you?  The point is not to show the product.  The point is to spark interest in the product, to get people to notice it.  (Most of) Their commercials are really cool, word of mouth and public opinion is what's killing Nintendo, not their advertising.  I mean Christ, look at Nintendogs.  That commercial was crap and it still sold great.  All these rants about gameplay footage is BS, so many games show very little footage (or total FMV) and yet sell fine.  And don't use San Andreas as an example of a commercial with game footage because that game was riding on the legacy created by GTA 3.  It would have sold just about as well without any commercial at all.

[NotSoStu]

That's a good point. I guess gameplay isn't what needs to be shown in the commercials, but they just really need to show you how Revolution's ocntroller can change the way you tihnk about video games. Especially since they want to interest people over the age of 30 or so.

[Stimutacs Addict]

... therefore showing some of the games that people are playing in that teaser would make for a perfect rev. commercial.

particularly 5-10 seconds on Mario, 5-10 on new IP, and another snippet featuring Metroid Prime 3 (or some other FPS)... then put it on in the middle of family guy and have FOX ANNOUNCE a special teaser for the new Nintendo console.
put the mario commercial on in the middle of Desperate Housewives and show wario ware or mario party or the new IP
and bam all's good.

oooh.. new thought... how could we possibly play Tony Hawk on the rev? I think that's a title that would require the shell (but I'd love to play it as if the remote was teh board.) grind by holding it sideways and balancing it in accordance to the onscreen meter. etc. manual by holding on the nose, then it'd start to rumble and make it harder to balance as time goes by.

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: Stimutacs Addict
if nintendo just edits that trailer by showing specific games for each one of those gamer's actions, they could market that thing with no problem. Hell, they can add a little snippet at the end of Ian and Rancid plugging in the remote to play a 3rd party wrassler.

I'm all for being in a Nintendo commercial, especially if I get to play a wrestling game...even though most of them suck now. How about you Ian? Wanna be in a commercial?

As for the whole advertising the Rev thing. I stick by my comment that it will be tricky. Tricky in that it looks like the Rev controller will present SO many different options and be able to be markerted to SO many different groups of people that Nintendo may suffer trying to find an "all in one" advertising slogan/campaign.

Like I said before, I'm no marketing genius nor am I that creative in that fashion, but I feel Nintendo need to seperate out the advertising a little. For the non-gamer crowd that Nintendo seem so interested in, they should go right after them full throtle. I mean really showcase that new controller and what makes it so different from controllers of the past. That is just the thing to win them over as ex-gamers may think "WOW! Some innovation at last!" and those who have never gamed might think "Now THAT looks like something I could get into!"

As for the larger market, the "average joe" gamers out there, I think Nintendo should present a more broad advertising campaign. They should show off the Rev's new controller in all of it's glory, while at the same time remind those "average joe" gamers that the Rev isn't JUST about the "remote controller" but about classic gaming, third party gaming, and if there are any more attachments of noteworthy mention, they should find a way to showcase those as well. Show off the Rev with all of it's bells and whistles is what I'm saying.

That way the average gamer will see that with Nintendo, not only do they get everything they already had, they also get everything they ever wanted PLUS things they never even KNEW that they wanted! I mean if done properly Nintendo could have a killer ad campaign. Because they have a LOT to showcase here.

The Rev is potentially shaping up to be a "Dream" console...at least from the controller perspective. But Nintendo certainly cannot afford to appear one dimensional in the controller arena. Their adverising MUST reflect that.

OR DAY R TEH DOOMED!!!!!!!1uno

[Don'tHate742]

Advertising or not.....word of mouth NEVER fails.

For example, when I want to see a movie, do I go to the internet to find what movies are good? No...I go to my friend or brother and ask them what movies are good. I may look online to further confirm that fact, but for the most part I trust them and go see it.

An even better example is going out and buying a cd. Most people go with bands the heard of, but most importantly what people have said about those cds.

[Rancid Planet]

That's true Don'tHate. It is. But let me AX you dis...

What is word of mouth advertising stimulated by? Those with these supposed "words" coming out of their mouths had to have learned about the item in question somewhere right? And sure maybe they heard about it from a friend as well. But SOMEBODY had to have gotten the news from an actual news source, a website, an ad in a magazine or an article in the same 'zine, a tv commercial, somewhere.

Word of mouth is important. Very. But it STARTS with the advertising and public presentation to the media that Nintendo presents the world with. THEN word of mouth takes off. If the word is good, we get positive word of mouth advertising. If the word on the street is bad, Nintendo are teh doomed.

Nintendo need to start early, aggressively and thoroughly in their showcasing of the Rev and it's controller(s). Both to the media and through the media in their advertising.

[KnowsNothing]

Somebody buys a game on impulse and tells his friend how good it turned out to be.  Overlooked that one didn't you

[IceCold]

It's looking like they will pack the remote, the analogue stick, AND the shell with the console. I don't mind at all if it raises the price a bit - in fact, if it were too cheap average consumers would feel like it was missing something (like the Cube, even though it was more powerful than the PS2). The console, the attachments, and Mario 128 or SSB:R bundled in for a MSRP of $259.99 US. Perfect.

I definitely agree that the new controller should be pushed more than the shell, but it deserves mention, if only to appease the doubters.

And they could advertise all of the attachments with the controller. First, a quick 360 degree (lol) view of it. Then, footage of the ORIGINAL Super Mario Bros, with the person playing with the controller tilted. Then, that footage fades/blends into Mario on the SNES. After that, it becomes SM64 then SMS, but NOW with the player playing with the shell. And finally all new footage of Mario 128, using the remote and portraying the tilt function. This advertises the controller w/ attachments, AS WELL as the download service (it could be mentioned).

I hope that the remote is re-designed to seem more comfortable and non-angular. Some curves here and there to make it fit perfectly in your hand (like the GCN controller) whichever way you hold it would go a long way. The analogue stick attachment looks more like it.

Finally, I think that the shell should be like the Gamecube controller but with two analogue sticks.

The button layout; a large A button, a kidney shaped B button directly to the left (not angled), a left C button (except quite a bit bigger) right above the A button, a [down] C button directly to the right of the A button, and a right C button on the far corner, opposite the left C button. The Z button should be redesigned to be made easier to click and more comfortable.

This way, for 64 games, you have the normal layout, but there are 5 face buttons and for the up C button you could use the new Z button

[The Omen]

Quote
You have no idea what advertising is, do you? The point is not to show the product. The point is to spark interest in the product, to get people to notice it. (Most of) Their commercials are really cool, word of mouth and public opinion is what's killing Nintendo, not their advertising. I mean Christ, look at Nintendogs. That commercial was crap and it still sold great. All these rants about gameplay footage is BS, so many games show very little footage (or total FMV) and yet sell fine. And don't use San Andreas as an example of a commercial with game footage because that game was riding on the legacy created by GTA 3. It would have sold just about as well without any commercial at all.

Maybe the advertising being horrific prevented Nintendogs from selling even more?  I mean really, look at all the big games for cube, and the advertising sucks royally...and the sales are hurt too.  Saying something sells 250,000 copies despite the advertising doesn't exactly mean the advertising has done its job.

[Ian Sane]

"I think he believes that Nintendo didn't actually change it to improve games - they just wanted a way to separate themselves from Sony and MS, but 'traditional' controls really didn't need to be fixed. Nintendo's games would work better with the old controls, and now because Nintendo has chosen to go with this, theey will have to adapt their games to it, and they could turn out worse. Am I right Ian?"

That's pretty much dead on.

"You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES."

And that's why I'm so concerned.  Non-gamers are a huge risk.  There is no guarentee that they will actually care.  Nintendo's idea that they're scared of the controller just seems to easy.  I think people that aren't into it, aren't into to it because they have no interest at all.

Existing gamers are the reason Nintendo even exists today.  They are the most important group for Nintendo to target.  So scaring them away is retarded.  Plus even if they attract non-gamers, how long will the interest last?  What if it's a fad?  If the non-gamers lose interest and Nintendo has turned away existing gamers they're F*CKED.

Would you risk the future of your company on a group that has never shown interest in your product before suddenly getting interested while at the same time scaring away the very group that made your company successful in the first place?  Nintendo could literally put themselves out of business from something as simple as advertising the controller wrong.

Regarding Nintendo's advertising, their biggest problem is that their commercials rely on the viewer knowing what's going on beforehand.  It's like they're made for us fans, instead of, you know, the people that don't know about the game.  The Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles ad for example had a bunch of people reflecting purple fog.  If you didn't know what the game was about already that ad made no sense at all.

The original Cube ads were very subtle.  You couldn't recognize what games were available from the ads unless you knew what they were ahead of time and knew what to look for.

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Somebody buys a game on impulse and tells his friend how good it turned out to be.  Overlooked that one didn't you

Yeah I guess I did. But I was thinking of just the Rev. Hardly anyone buys a system on impulse. But SOME do to be sure...rich bastards. "Have you heard of this new Reverlooshun thingy? I just got one at the store cuz I was bored." "Yes I have heard of it. Now let me ask YOU a question. What did the hand say to the face? SLAP!"

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Regarding Nintendo's advertising, their biggest problem is that their commercials rely on the viewer knowing what's going on beforehand. It's like they're made for us fans, instead of, you know, the people that don't know about the game.

That is so very true. Nintendo have this problem with overestimating consumers. I think that's why I'm always so on about Nintendo learning to pander to the lowest common denominator. Sony do that better than anyone and they have had massive success. I know that isn't the only reason but c'mon, Nintendo can't keep living like it's 1992 and everyone still hangs on their every word. In this time frame,  on this continent especially, Nintendo is largely ignored by the media and the mainstream gamer sect. Only when Nintendo do something HUGE does anyone pay any attention to them. And then usually the buzz fades out just as soon as it gets started.

But if Nintendo get their act together, from a marketing standpoint, it won't be too hard to change this. Especially not if they have some seriously cool stuff to offer the gaming public. And this time, they really do.

[Hostile Creation]

"Maybe the advertising being horrific prevented Nintendogs from selling even more? I mean really, look at all the big games for cube, and the advertising sucks royally...and the sales are hurt too. Saying something sells 250,000 copies despite the advertising doesn't exactly mean the advertising has done its job."

I doubt it.  Quality of the advertisement tends to matter a lot less than the fact that you're advertising.  I'm sure there were some negative effects, but the losses as a result of the ad were probably relatively few.  Nintendo has plenty of great ads, too.  Check out either of the Metroid Prime ads (especially the first one); both of them are incredibly cool.  Yet neither of them sold nearly as well as they should have.  Of all the ads you see on television, how many do you pay attention to, or actually purchase the product advertised?  I'd say less than five percent.  But it increases your awareness of the product, and a terrible ad does that as well as a wonderful one does.  Fact is, a really funny ad will make you laugh, you'll say what a great ad, and the chances of you buying the product (assuming you weren't previously interested in it) are the same as any ad you didn't laugh at.  Quantity beats out quality, to be frank.
And I of all people would like to be the first to deny this, but I can't.  I'd love commercials to be better, and wish they'd succeed according to quality, but that generally isn't the case.

[wandering]

Quote
But it increases your awareness of the product, and a terrible ad does that as well as a wonderful one does. Fact is, a really funny ad will make you laugh, you'll say what a great ad, and the chances of you buying the product (assuming you weren't previously interested in it) are the same as any ad you didn't laugh at.

I'm not sure that's true. I'm going to be getting a virgin mobile phone in the near future, and I can't say that their great Christmahanakwanaka ad didn't influence my decision (though I tell myself that I would've gone with them regardless). And Dell's crappy 'Dude, you're getting a Dell!' campaign  turned me off of Dell's computers for quite awhile.

So, while I do agree that quantity is more important than quality, I do think ads can affect consumers' overall image of a product.  

EDIT: as for Nintendo's advertising, their cube advertising has been hit or miss, but their DS ads have been fantastic. The DS ads do a great job of making the system look cool, clearly (and brilliantly) demonstrating what the system does, and giving an idea of the variety of games that are available. Also, they've taken a page from Sony's book by making the ads as uniform and cohesive as possible, and making sure that the ads are ubiquitous.
So, let's hope Rev's marketing follows the DS's lead.  

[Hostile Creation]

Yet Dell is the leading computer manufacturer, and has been since the Dell Dude.

[MrMojoRising]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I think he believes that Nintendo didn't actually change it to improve games - they just wanted a way to separate themselves from Sony and MS, but 'traditional' controls really didn't need to be fixed. Nintendo's games would work better with the old controls, and now because Nintendo has chosen to go with this, theey will have to adapt their games to it, and they could turn out worse. Am I right Ian?"

That's pretty much dead on.

"You know the ONLY people I can find against this controller? They're the people who ALREADY PLAY GAMES."

And that's why I'm so concerned.  Non-gamers are a huge risk.  There is no guarentee that they will actually care.  Nintendo's idea that they're scared of the controller just seems to easy.  I think people that aren't into it, aren't into to it because they have no interest at all.

I obviously don't know Nintendo's intentions in making the Rev controller, but whether or not their intentions were to better gaming or to simply stand apart from Sony and MS, I believe the controller will definately improve gaming.  Of course some genres will not benifit as much as others, but a fresh take on controls is very welcomed in my opinion.  I played Mario 64 and then I played it again on an island with better graphics but that time they called it Mario Sunshine, now I can play it with a new way to control the character on screen.  Not just a new setting, not just a new story (although that never really changes anyways: save the princess), not just new pretty graphics...the only way that Nintendo really could have taken a larger step in advancing gaming is if they invented a fourth dimension (and no I don't mean time).

With all that aside, Nintendo is still providing the "shell" attachment so that if a game will not benefit from the new controller, it can still be completely functional.

By "people who already play games" who exactly do you mean?  Because I would imagine the FPS loving masses to go gaga over being able to point where they want to shoot.  If you mean Nintendo fans then I think (or at least hope) you're wrong.  Let us start with the youngsters...this technology is going to grab them by their recently dropped balls and they're going to think it's freaking amazing.  Then there's us older Nintendo fans who are fans for a combination of two reasons. The first is because Nintendo makes the best games around.  The second is because Nintendo provides fresh and exciting gameplay experiences.  They are both game masters and innovators.  Now, the people who will not be as excited and interested in the controller are obviously the ones who are nintendo fans mostly for the first reason.  These people just want more of the same that they've come to know and love...these are the kind of people that don't grow out of professional wrestling by 6th grade.

Anyone who is against the Revolution controller without seeing its potential realized is simply being nostalgic.  The only arguement I can understand against the controller is that it's potential may not be realized.  If it's not I'm going to stab game developers everywhere (I'm not exactly sure if that means I'm going to stab different game developers around the world or if I'm going to stab game developers everywhere in their bodies, but I'll make the decision when and/or if the time comes).

[Caliban]

I don't get the criticism against Nintendo from some people. I see Nintendo as a company with many mistakes done in the past however I see it as the only one that has any guts in this buisness. In some way Nintendo is right about this buisness being doomed if they don't innovate. I can't imagine how the world would be right now if certain people didn't have the guts to introduce certain technologies to the masses, I'm not giving examples because you've got a brain so think for yourself.

Just one more thing, I see this controller as Nintendo adding new ways of having fun within this hobby. They aren't changing anything, in fact they still give an opportunity to play games in a conventional way and I could see some games working better in this way than with the NRC(Nintendo Revolution Controller).

I think that most people's bad mouthing isn't grounding on any substantial evidence and so therefore they should just chillax for a while.

Edit: Ahoy ye mateys I forgot to mention that Nintendo is the best at a Davy Back!

[ShyGuy]

I wonder if any new Rev games will turn the wand sideways and use the NES layout. I could see this working for games like Alien Hominid or Viewtiful Joe.

[Rancid Planet]

I look for at least ONE mini-game comp to use a lot of sideways controller action ShyGuy.

[WesDawg]

I really think this shell is probably a bad idea. I think it will probably get the Rev a lot more ported games, but at the same time, it'll encourage devs to not use the wand. I'd rather get neat wand games than thousands of ports.

[BlackNMild2k1]

why not get both?
we want the ports, and we want the new "wand" games.
remember what Nintendo said, "we are going to be an 'and' company"
meaning why do we have to choose when we can have it all?

[Rancid Planet]

And since the "wand" (we really have to come up with a universal name for this thing) is going to be compatible with the standard pad, we should see plenty of half-assed ports that use some minimal "wandertainment". Which would be better than nothing.

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Well I dug up an article at 1-Up.com that IMO proves that change has done more to help expand gaming, not hurt it and guess what? Most of the change came from Nintendo, and that is why I'm excited for their next system

Here's my favorite quote from the article:

Quote
The four Mario and Zelda games that Nintendo inexplicably allowed Philips to create for the CD-i would be terrible no matter what controller you used to play them. But the pad that shipped with the CD-i hardware defies all reason. Held in one hand, it's basically like a television remote -- the directional pad surrounded by two tiny, thin buttons.

Keep in mind this article was released on 9/13/05, two days before the unveiling of the Revolution controller.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
Here's my favorite quote from the article:

Quote
The four Mario and Zelda games that Nintendo inexplicably allowed Philips to create for the CD-i would be terrible no matter what controller you used to play them. But the pad that shipped with the CD-i hardware defies all reason. Held in one hand, it's basically like a television remote -- the directional pad surrounded by two tiny, thin buttons.

Keep in mind this article was released on 9/13/05, two days before the unveiling of the Revolution controller.

questions to ask autor of article:

what does foot taste like?
does it leave an aftertaste when you remove it from your mouth?
has reason regained authority?

j/k what a coincednce though

[Ian Sane]

"questions to ask autor of article:

what does foot taste like?
does it leave an aftertaste when you remove it from your mouth?
has reason regained authority?"

He hasn't put his foot in his mouth until we have some real Rev games to play.  If Nintendo doesn't deliver he's going to sound like a prophet.

The only reason there's any optimism for the Rev controller is because Nintendo has such a great track record with controllers.  If Philips returned to the console market and showed the same controller you guys would all be laughing at them.  This isn't a knock on Nintendo.  It's good that they've obtained a good reputation for controller.  When Nintendo talks about the possibilities of the controller it's more believable.  If someone else said the same things you would assume they were full of crap because they have no credibility.

Is the CD-i controller any good?  No.  So the guy's right.  Any controller is a stupid design if it's not used correctly.

Though I do wonder why Philips went with that design.  If they came to the same "everyone can use a remote" conclusion Nintendo has come to then Nintendo might be the one putting their foot in their mouth.

[mantidor]

I think, Ian, that the reason people are optimistic about the rev is that 100% of the hands on impressions have been positive, let me repeat 100%, theres not even one that is neutral, they all say the remote works great, their concerns are third party support and multiplatform games, but they liked what they tried. In simple words, everyone who has tried it has loved it, and this is people who are gamers.

[Artimus]

A remote controller would suck. It's the motion sensing that makes a remote work.