Topic: Miyamoto soundbites on IGN

[Mario]

Exactly, Robotor! EVERY Nintendo game that is simple, ALSO has an incredible amount of depth if you keep playing it. Get over this "non-gamer" bullcrap. It doesn't even make sense, DVD's are for non-gamers, Microwaves are for non-gamers, not ANY videogame.

Sure, Nintendogs would be one of the few new games to appeal to people who aren't big followers of games and don't visit message boards where everyone bitches, which is a great thing! The audience and userbase gets bigger and more varied! Gamers at Famitsu also loved the game! Everyone wins!

Anybody who calls a game too short or too easy, has no imagination whatsoever, due to being fed the bullcrap idea that's being fed to people subliminaly through crappy reviews and the internet, that you should only play what the game tells you to play, and yes, i'm sorry, but you're in the minority. In Grand Theft Auto, there are missions that are what progresses the "story" throughout the game, but guess what? The missions aren't as fun as bumming around doing whatever you feel like. Don't like old ladies? Run as many over as you can before you either get killed or get arrested by the cops, fun! Oh damn, time to do a mission.

For example, if you only spend 4 hours on Wario Ware, you're COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT of the game. It's not to storm through as fast as you can and merely play every microgame then hop straight on the internet and complain, it's to challenge yourself and see how well you can do in your favourite microgames or minigames. Just because you've played a game before, doesn't make it totally pointless to play again because "you've already beaten it", the point is, if it's fun, keep playing it. I've played Wario Ware Touched for i'd say.. around 50 hours now, and I only just unlocked Pyoro T, I could have unlocked it really quickly if I just stormed through the game filling in the "requirements", but that's boring, i'm not going to force myself to do that, because I don't want to, and guess what? I don't have to either. It's an "and" game, Nintendo are an "and" company, don't like my approach to the game? Well that's fine, just don't bitch about why your approach to it sucks.

A game only lasts for 5 hours if you only spend 5 hours playing it. The only time I see the short and easy comment as valid, is if the game sucks and you aren't enjoying it, but then if you didn't like the game you wouldn't play it til the end in the first place.

What the text? Originally I was just going to say something simple that agreed with Robotor.. now.. I don't know WHAT i've said, i'm tired. (epic non-gimmick hardcore post?)

[Robotor]

Wow Mario, thanks for backing me.  I rushed through Warioware Touched JUST to play pyoro T.

[Mario]

I might have done that too if I had known it would be this fun! I wasn't much of a fan of the Pyoro games in the original Wario Ware, well they were okay, but I didn't spend much time on them, so I wasn't expecting much with this one either, but hey! Pleasant surprise! =D

[BlackNMild2k1]

Mario, I have done a similar thing as you, only with RE4.  I could have just beat the game and then played it again to beat it again and again, but I decided to backtrack and play the specificaly interesting parts over and over again until I got it perfect(always saved just B4).

Not only did  I get the most out of the game, but I got it the first time through.  Not only was the game not too quick, but it was definately not too easy(using most of your ammo when taking alternate routes after backtracking to make sure you haven't missed anything makes you do things slightly differently).

[Mario]

Well, RE4 is different to Wario Ware, I play that a bit differently (obviously), I'm actually on my second run through RE4 right now, but yeah I explored every area and every path on my first run. I still don't consider having "beaten" the game, because there's still lots more to it and i'm still having fun with it, it's an AWESOME game. The addition of gameplay to the RE series works quite well

I was only talking about games people would consider "short and easy" in my post, as for large adventure games like RE4 and Metroid Prime... well nobody complains about them so there's nothing to address. =P The people that WOULD complain about such games wouldn't be on an internet forum, and those are the people Nintendo wants to bring into gaming.

[thepoga]

It's a good thing a lot of microgames in warioware weren't copies of each other. Oh wait...

Wario

"Anybody who calls a game too short or too easy, has no imagination whatsoever, due to being fed the bullcrap idea that's being fed to people subliminaly through crappy reviews and the internet, that you should only play what the game tells you to play, and yes, i'm sorry, but you're in the minority."

Okay. So how about a game LIKE Luigi's Mansion? I'm sure you felt compelled to beat it 3 or 4 different times. After beating it the first time, it wasn't really satisfying to try to beat it again. Even to search for more money. It WAS an AMAZING game though that valued quality over quantity. And games being too easy? WHAT? There are tons of games that are too easy. My nephew is playing this computer game. You gotta count all the frogs! OMGOSH THATS SO HARD!!! Expand your thinking of what a game is you jerk. (jk about you being a jerk. It just sounded like a good way to end)

[Mario]

Want me to put up a screenshot of me on my 7th Luigi's Mansion play through at the menu screen?

Obviously that counting game is aimed at certain people, people learning to count, jerk. (i'm finally going to sleep now)

[Ian Sane]

"Yeah, Ninty is really going to stop making "deep" games...You know, ignore Metroid Prime 3 and Super Smash Brothers 3, etc...Those are completely niche games you know and cater to the non-gamer...Oh wait, no they don't...Leave it to Ian to completely jump the gun... =\"

There's one problem with that.  Metroid Prime 3 and SSB 3 are sequels.  I want NEW game properities from Nintendo and I'm concerned that they'll put too much effort on making the new stuff for non-gamers and such while we're expected to be content with sequels.  I'm sick of sequels.  Nintendo released far too many franchises games on the Cube and GBA and while I would buy Metroid Prime 3 if I owned a Rev I would never buy a Rev for it.  I need something new to justify the console purchase.  If Nintendo dedicates too much effort to non-gamers we might not get enough new "epic" games.

My fears are largely based on the DS which so far has not had ANYTHING released on it that I am interested in.  There's some good stuff on the way but most of the DS stuff I'm interested in are sequels.  The new stuff on the DS so far seems to be the non-gamer variety like I'm supposed to buy a Nintendo system just to play more Mario.  I'll probably buy a DS for the side scrolling Mario game I should have got on the GBA but there's not much else that's grabbing my interest.  The new IP is going to stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton.  I don't want that to be the case on the Rev.  I want new IP's from Nintendo that appeal to me.

Plus you have to remember that Nintendo only can make so many games at a time.  No matter how much effort they focus on non-gamers it's going to be at the expense of effort put towards the existing fanbase.  Let's say Nintendo releases 10 games a year.  Let's say you like 8 of those.  With the Cube Nintendo for the most part is only focusing on existing gamers.  Now let's say on the Rev they dedicate 30% of their effort to non-gamers.  So now of those 10 games only 7 of them are for existing gamers.  Realistically out of those you only like 5.  Suddenly there's a lot less games that attract your interest.  Keep in mind that the Rev's third party support is going to be iffy to begin with and you're potentially seeing an N64 scenario where you have to wait months for a game you like to come out.  Nintendo could be taking a console lineup that's going to be slim to begin with and making it even slimmer.  The fact that almost every first party game rules really helps make up for poor third party support.  Now the odds of liking every third party game is going to shrink.  For me these last few months on the Cube have been hell because Nintendo released two games in a row (Star Fox Assault and DK: Jungle Beat) that didn't interest me.  If they focus too much on non-gamers this scenario could be commonplace on the Rev.

"Anybody who calls a game too short or too easy, has no imagination whatsoever, due to being fed the bullcrap idea that's being fed to people subliminaly through crappy reviews and the internet, that you should only play what the game tells you to play"

I should only have to play a game as long as I find it enjoyable.  I don't find replaying the same stuff again and again to be any fun.  I don't find insanely long games fun either.  It's got to have a good amount of content yet play at a pace that it doesn't seem to ever drag.  I beat Luigi's Mansion once and then never touched it again because I wasn't interested in playing anymore.  I should not be expected to play through a game several times to get a respectable amount of play time out of it.

[nemo_83]

I agree with Ian, and want to add some things.

Several times GTA has been brought up because it is epic like Zelda and you can play it for hours; but is easy to pick up, play with for fifteen minutes, and put down too.  You can't just pick up and play Metroid Prime.  Hell sometimes when playing games like Prime and Majora's Mask I find myself unable to get into the game; fighting my way through just to experience the ending when things get sort of unfun.  GTA in comparison has sort of mediocre adventures compared to Zelda and Metroid, but it is really fun to just goof off on.  GTA is accessable, Zelda is not quite so.  You can still find yourself playing with a Zelda game in the way you can in GTA; but I hate how long it takes to get a Zelda game like WW started.  Noone wants to spend an hour going through instructions on how to play a game whether they have never played the game or have played it sixty times.  In Halo, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, and Eternal Darkness you can play through the game, but you can also goof off experimenting or playing multiplayer.  In some games this replayability is more prevelant, but these are all adventure games with progressive mature stories that are easy to pick up and play.  There are much less accessable games out there like KOTOR, Fable, and FF11.  Speaking of which, Nintendo is touting their deal with SquareEnix for games on REV and DS; but Square makes some of the most unaccessable games in the world.  

I like epic games.  I like games I play.  I specificly like epic games I can play, but also can play with like GTA.  I don't like games I can only play with.  REV doesn't need to be the Electroplankton console.  There is a shard of the hardcore market that likes those games, but those gamers also like other games while most any noncore audience Nintendo digs up with music miny games is only going to like that kind of game; they won't be into Castlevania.  Nintendo's people keep talking about how accessability and depth are like oil and water; and as has already been discussed it just doesn't help when you try to move that opinion with some of the best selling and most accessable games of the generation as examples of how this is true.  There must be a balance so that most all games can appeal to broad audiences; but they need to remember they have to aim their consoles at broad audiences content wise.  That means they need a broad range of types of games; adult and family friendly.  Nongamers don't mind playing two or three games a year, gamers would get bored because there are way too few games and go online to discuss games with fellow gamers because they have no games to play...and people ask why Nintendo's fanbase is so active online.  

If Nintendo wants the REV to be the Electroplankton system then they better make creative games focused on creating games rather than a recreating the *** club.

The article on Japan's portable market made me think about how different America is from Japan.  Like how REV presently has only wifi out of the box.  That works fine for Japan; but in America we live from Maine to California.  There is too much space for there to be wifi on every block; and the privitization lobyist spend billions keeping such things as public internet access off the tables of Congress.  People drive cars in America.  We're not on the train; we can't play games when we're going places.  It is just like how minidisks never got big in America; and how their cel phones put ours to shame.  Japan is just a portable market; and Nintendo has a chance to hold that market forever.  Nintendo can become the king of everything portable; games, music, phones, blackberries, PDAs, etc.  


I don't like the quote about wanting developers to not make epic games on REV.  Nintendo is already pumping their lineup full of milked Mario minigames and now they want developers to make small sports or action minigames too.  They must think they can use backwards compatibility to satisfy the real fans?  I like new stuff way too much; and if you count the score card the competition is planing lineups with new IPs like Gears of War, Prey, and Too Human on 360 or original work from Factor Five on PS3.  New IPs make gamers giddy.  Nongamers could care less.  So why are they talking like their new IPs are going to be like Nintendogs?  The new IPs should be focused on appealing to gamers.  Nintendo is trying so hard to break the shakles of the present game industry; but I think they have to wait.  You can't muscle weird games upon people who just don't like games.  You have to wait until everyone from the grandparents to the children have grown up with videogames before you can really sell games to everyone.  Some people are never going to game, **** them.  Think about the people who have been providing healthy profits for twenty years.  Think about providing that audience for another fifty years and their children and their children.  Don't try to sell it to my grandparents; they're more worried about going to Church than playing videogames.  Wait and try to keep selling us videogames until we're grandparents, because then you'll be able to serve every generation, then you'll be able to sell to old and young with the same kinds of games without dividing up your efforts to serve different types of people, serve the traditional gamers instead of people who won't be here tomorrow.  The mainstreme can be summed up by a single comment on MC Hammer's carreer.  Here today, gone today.  


Like I said, **** the mainstreme.  You want to know an honest to god offensive reason Nintendo is not where they should be.  Years ago a close friend told me he was thinking about selling his N64 to buy a PSX because the black kids at our school liked the PSX.  I was floored.  Take from that comment what you want.  It says a lot about gamers, their minds, our culture, Sony, and Nintendo.

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83

I don't like the quote about wanting developers to not make epic games on REV.  

That's OK, because no such quote exists.

There's quite a stunning progression between what Shiggy actually said in the original article, what IGN reported based on that article, and what some of the people here are interpretting based on IGN's article.

You guys ever play that game "telephone" when you were kids. Its like we started with Shiggy saying he personally misses the kind of game you can just "pick up and play" and after it filters down the line it somehow came out as "Every Rev game is going to be exactly like Luigi's Mansion".

Something important you guys have to remember about Shiggy: he's not a businessman. Go back and read a bunch of his interviews. He's a designer and what he says comes from his personal design sensibilities. So when he says something about GTA or Halo, its got nothing to do with how well the titles sell... it's not his job to sell software: he just makes it.

[Mario]

Quote
but I hate how long it takes to get a Zelda game like WW started. Noone wants to spend an hour going through instructions on how to play a game whether they have never played the game or have played it sixty times.

The beginning part of TWW is the best part of the game, I think. I spend hours in that first village playing around with things (am i right Bill?) Then I get up to the next few dungeons and get bored =\. I've only completed that game once, but i've tried like 5 times and always ended up stopping when I got to around Dragon Roost and a few months later i'd start all over again, there's just something about that game that I can't play it for too long or I get bored of the controls.. or something. I don't know.

Quote
So why are they talking like their new IPs are going to be like Nintendogs? The new IPs should be focused on appealing to gamers.

NEWS FLASH GAMERS liked Nintendogs so much they gave it 40/40. Games like Electroplankton and Nintendogs only expand the definition of videogames, and i'm all for that! Don't be afraid of new genres.

Quote
I want NEW game properities from Nintendo and I'm concerned that they'll put too much effort on making the new stuff for non-gamers and such while we're expected to be content with sequels.

You can keep playing just your sequels then, i'll sit here and enjoy my gimmick nongamer games (because i'm not a gamer) AND the awesome sequels and games like Another Code (Trace Memory) and Geist .

Not buying a Revolution just because SSB3 and Metroid Prime 3 are sequels is just stupidity. They are new games, you haven't played them.

I'll end with this quote from Iwata during this years E3 conference

"Revolution is the perfect home for videogame masterpieces, games that look beautiful, games that play flawlessly, masterpieces that connect you to the games story like no system before"  

[Ian Sane]

"You can keep playing just your sequels then"

Huh?  I said I don't want to just play sequels.

"Not buying a Revolution just because SSB3 and Metroid Prime 3 are sequels is just stupidity. They are new games, you haven't played them."

But they're not new experiences.  These will probably be great games but they're not going to be that unique.  I bought a Gamecube for Pikmin because there was nothing like it anywhere.  I had to buy a Cube just to experience that type of gameplay.  Super Mario Sunshine was great but I didn't need to buy a Cube for it.  The N64 was more than sufficient at providing my 3D platformer fix.  Sequels are supporting titles.  You buy them to compliment the brand new stuff that required you to buy a new console or miss out.

[Mario]

Well, they will be new experiences if the controller is Revolutionary.

Quote
Huh? I said I don't want to just play sequels.

I thought you implied that Nintendo wasn't targetting you with it's new franchise, that you had to be content with just the sequels... since you refuse to enjoy new games like Electroplankton that you dismiss as nongamers games.

[mantidor]

Its confusing... you want new unique experiences but at the same time you dont want them to focus on non-gamers...well, I guess thats a total oxymoron, anything thats unique will instantly be some sort of a non-gamer experience, since it wont be an extension of any known genre.  Thats what Im deducing from your posts, you want new unique experiences, but somehow when Nintendo offers them, like Nintendogs and Electroplankton, you dont want them because its for the "non-gamer". when did games became defined as RTS, FPS, puzzle, action, adventure, etc, etc, etc, and they stop being just "something that makes you have a fun time"?

[Don'tHate742]

Ian...time and time again you confuse the hell out of me...

In one simple sentence...

What do you want?

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Its confusing... you want new unique experiences but at the same time you dont want them to focus on non-gamers...well, I guess thats a total oxymoron, anything thats unique will instantly be some sort of a non-gamer experience, since it wont be an extension of any known genre.  Thats what Im deducing from your posts, you want new unique experiences, but somehow when Nintendo offers them, like Nintendogs and Electroplankton, you dont want them because its for the "non-gamer". when did games became defined as RTS, FPS, puzzle, action, adventure, etc, etc, etc, and they stop being just "something that makes you have a fun time"?

I'm not trying to speak for Ian, but I think the problem is that when Nintendo goes for new gaming experience, it usually creates a niche, cult game like Nintendogs or Electroplankton--which target non-gamers, and is all well and good. However, when Nintendo makes games for well-established genres like FPS or Adventure games, it usually goes for sequels. Sequels can be fun, but I'd like to see Nintendo devote some of its creative energies to a new FPS or Adventure game for someone other than Link, Samus, or Mario.

[Mario]

Quote
when Nintendo goes for new gaming experience, it usually creates a niche, cult game like Nintendogs or Electroplankton

It doesn't "usually", those two are the ONLY examples. Plus, Nintendogs is not niche, it's selling amazingly well, and it's a good gamers game too, it's an "and" game, stop using that as an example.

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
when Nintendo goes for new gaming experience, it usually creates a niche, cult game like Nintendogs or Electroplankton

It doesn't "usually", those two are the ONLY examples. Plus, Nintendogs is not niche, it's selling amazingly well, and it's a good gamers game too, it's an "and" game, stop using that as an example.

Because Animal Crossing and Pikmin don't count?

Nintendogs is niche in the type of market it captures, not how much it sells. The game can sell very well and still be niche.

And this still doesn't change the fact that Nintendo leaves all of its bright and original ideas for cult games. It seems to always go the safe route and make sequels when it's time to make games of established genres. Nintendo has the creativity and brain power to not always have to play it safe. As much as I like Mario and Metroid and Zelda, it's time for Nintendo to blow us away with something epic and new.  

[Mario]

Pikmin? Please tell me you're joking, a friend of mine tried to play that game and he had no idea what to do, Pikmin is way too complicated to be a game for "non-gamers" (god i hate that term now). Animal Crossing, good point, but that series was established 5 years ago, and isn't the result of Nintendo trying to capture "non-gamers". Personally, i'm not a very big fan of Animal Crossing, but it has been a HUGE hit with gamers. Though I do think it's funny how most of the people that posted in the once existant Animal Crossing Trading Board section of these forums didn't post ANYWHERE else.

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
Pikmin? Please tell me you're joking, a friend of mine tried to play that game and he had no idea what to do, Pikmin is way too complicated to be a game for "non-gamers" (god i hate that term now). Animal Crossing, good point, but that series was established 5 years ago, and isn't the result of Nintendo trying to capture "non-gamers". Personally, i'm not a very big fan of Animal Crossing, but it has been a HUGE hit with gamers. Though I do think it's funny how most of the people that posted in the once existant Animal Crossing Trading Board section of these forums didn't post ANYWHERE else.

I wasn't referring to pick up and play games when I mentioned Pikmin; I was referring to niche market games Nintendo has made. When it comes to these games, Nintendo gets creative. It isn't the same concept but with Mario plucking miniature Toads out of the ground and having them carry stuff and attack koopas, but a completely original concept with completely original characters. Why can't Nintendo do that with a FPS or a Adventure or RPG? There's no reason why it can't or shouldn't.

And, not to bash your friend, but it doesn't take much to get Pikmin. Pikmin is one of those games where the controls are extremely simple, but not the gameplay. Fair amount of brain power involved.

[Mario]

Fair enough, but FPS? Geist. Adventure? Another Code. RPG? Fire Emblem? I don't know, Nintendo aren't big on RPG's. Who knows, maybe we'll see more original FPS/Adventure/RPGs from Nintendo in the future. I'd rather see new genres though.

Yeah the controls for Pikmin are simple, but he was just running around without knowing what was going on.

[jasonditz]

I get the sense that a lot of times the developers at Nintendo will come up with an original idea and then the marketing heads slap a franchise character on top of it to get it noticed. Like someone thought up "Microgames" and wanted it on the GBA so marketing said "fine, slap Wario in there so people don't ignore it".

Maybe more people would've bought the perfectly solid "Polarium" if it had been "Mario's Polarium" and had a bunch of Mario themed graphics on what is otherwise the same game?

[couchmonkey]

I think what Ian says makes sense.  My interpretation is that he wants new games that take existing genres and mess around with them to come up with new experiences (see Pikmin).  He doesn't want products like Elektroplankton, which have little in common with existing types of games - there's no goal or challenge that needs to be achieved: it's more like a toy than a game.

Now I think that view is a bit narrow-minded but I also think lots of people share it.  There are definitely many gamers out there who wouldn't count The Sims or Animal Crossing as "true" video games because they don't set clears goals and obstacles to pass to achieve those goals.  That's one of the differences between new games aimed at directly at gamers and new games aimed more at non-gamers.  I think Ian wants new games aimed at gamers.  I want both!  I think a lot of the non-games out there are really exciting and fun, but I do want new experiences in the old vein: I don't want to have to rely entirely on predictable sequels to give me my traditional gaming fixes.

There's something I like about Miyamoto's comments, and that's that I'm tired of games getting more complicated.  I don't have the time to devote to games that I did five years ago, and a lot of new titles out there are too hard to learn.  Splinter Cell comes to mind as a perfect example: the control scheme is different enough from anything else that I've played that I have to learn a lot, but I've never had enough time to get past the training level, so I've never really gotten into the game, so I have these several-month gaps before I try to play again, and then I've forgotten all the controls and once again it takes me too long to beat the training level.  It's a ridiculous cycle that exists because games have gotten too complex.  There are other games like Tales of Symphonia or Prince of Persia that I managed to get further into because I found them more appealing than Splinter Cell, but even they start to elude me if I stop playing them for more than a month.  On the other hand, I can go back and play Super Mario World or The Legend of Zelda after years away from them.  I am excited by the possibility that Nintendo could reduce some of this complexity.

The comments Miyamoto made about games being too long is a bit annoying though.  I love DK Jungle Beat, and it has enough replay value to last quite a while, but I can't be the only one who wants the game to be twice as long.

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Its confusing... you want new unique experiences but at the same time you dont want them to focus on non-gamers...well, I guess thats a total oxymoron, anything thats unique will instantly be some sort of a non-gamer experience, since it wont be an extension of any known genre.  Thats what Im deducing from your posts, you want new unique experiences, but somehow when Nintendo offers them, like Nintendogs and Electroplankton, you dont want them because its for the "non-gamer". when did games became defined as RTS, FPS, puzzle, action, adventure, etc, etc, etc, and they stop being just "something that makes you have a fun time"?

I'm not trying to speak for Ian, but I think the problem is that when Nintendo goes for new gaming experience, it usually creates a niche, cult game like Nintendogs or Electroplankton--which target non-gamers, and is all well and good. However, when Nintendo makes games for well-established genres like FPS or Adventure games, it usually goes for sequels. Sequels can be fun, but I'd like to see Nintendo devote some of its creative energies to a new FPS or Adventure game for someone other than Link, Samus, or Mario.

Then you dont want new and unique experiences, you want more of the same with a new face, FPS or adventure games are hardly innovative and new, are you saying that Nintendo should then do a Zelda clone with a new IP? because I disagree then. I dont mind the games being sequels to franchises with Nintendo because all their sequels feel and play very different from its predecessors, specially with the franchises of Zelda and Mario.

[Ian Sane]

"I think what Ian says makes sense. My interpretation is that he wants new games that take existing genres and mess around with them to come up with new experiences (see Pikmin). He doesn't want products like Elektroplankton, which have little in common with existing types of games - there's no goal or challenge that needs to be achieved: it's more like a toy than a game."

That's pretty close to what I think though I don't only want new games that mess around with existing genres.  I do want that as well but I think you guys are assuming that any brand new type of game MUST be for non-gamers.  That doesn't make any sense unless you have very broad definitions of game genres.  Pikmin and Metroid Prime really didn't play like anything else when they came out.  You could probably classify then into existing genres but they're not cliche or generic.  They're new games with new experiences created for gamers.  They're not targeted at my Mom, they're targeted at me.  That's what I want to see.  GTA is the big success story of this generation.  Was there anything like it when it came out?  No.  That's largely why it was so successful.

Brand new games that only loosely follow existing genre definitions that are clearly designed for existing gamers can still be made.  I know this because I have ideas for new games and if I can think of new stuff that isn't a glorified mini-game then Nintendo can.