Topic: Xenoblade for 400 dollars?! WHY is Nintendo allowing this to happen?!

[sweetfeathery]

I'll admit first that I made a mistake but not feel how Nintendo is treating my situation is a bigger mistake. I bought Xenoblade at launch. I put about 30 hours into the campaign and put the game on my shelf where it collected dust. Due to a divorce my sister was in sudden need of a roommate so I moved out of my folks place and in with her. The Wii was the family's console so I could not take it with me. I own an Xbox and a computer which are mine so those came with me in the move. Back in November the new Halo game came out and I was strapped for cash so I decided to trade in some of those Wii games I was not able to play anymore....including Xenoblade. With promotions GameStop was going to give me 45 dollars for Xenoblade which I thought worked out great. I figure that I can always re buy it down the road if I wanted to play it again. Just recently I was able to come across a friends Wii and wanted to give Xenoblade another shot. I went back to GameStop and asked for Xenoblade. The guy thought I was trying to be a troll. I told him I was serious and he told me that he is asked for that game more than any other game. I asked if he could check another store and he chuckled. He told me to "get on the list" ... that there are other people who are frequently calling up as regulars now looking for the game. I couldn't believe it. I went online and searched for the game. I found the game I had bought less than a year ago factory sealed for over 300 dollars! I scrolled down for preorder copies... average price online is at 145 dollars!
The next day I went to work ( I work in the electronics department of a Wal-mart) and our local Nintendo rep came in to put new signs up for Luigis Mansion 3DS. I began to explain my story. As soon as I told him I traded in Xenoblade he exhaled and said "shouldn't have done that..."  He told me that every GameStop he goes to he also deals with that question... upset store managers who are tired of being asked for that game.
So I get it.. I screwed up. Shouldn't have traded it in. But what gets me is that Nintendo continues to sit on its hands and does NOTHING!
Three things Nintendo announce tomorrow to make people like me happy
1. Offer another shot at buying the game
 Why not take preorders on Amazon and have another batch of the game in print?
2. Make an HD version for the Wii U
I get it would take some time but at least announcing the project will give people reassurance that they will not have to pay hundreds of dollars for this game.
3. Offer it on the Wii U Virtual Console
I plan on buying a Wii U down the road but am not in any hurry to buy one given the current game selection. However, I might just break down and invest early if Nintendo were to offer Xenoblade on the virtual console. Heck if people are really shelling out 300 dollars for this game I would think Nintendo would view that as 300 dollars that could be going towards a Wii U!

[Oblivion]

Why should Nintendo care?

[Soren]

1: Is there enough demand to justify a second print run? Probably not. How many people are really calling Gamestops around the country asking for the game? Hundreds? Thousands? How many thousands? Sad reality of business.


2: I'd rather have MS working on new games instead of having them revisit a game they finished making just 3  years ago. There's plenty of time later on for an HD remake. Not now.


3: Backwards compatibility and the isolation of Wii mode in Wii U probably make this unfeasible for the time being. Let's worry about Gamecube games first before we start demanding Wii games on the eShop. Pandora's Tower was a perfect candidate for the eShop and look what happened there.


I think even before OP Rainfall, you could have looked at Xenoblade, Last Story and Pandora's Towers as games you had to get at or near the release date, or risk not playing them at all.


EDIT: Spoken as someone who traded in the (most likely) only copy of "F1 2009" in Puerto Rico. Trading in games that will be hard to find in the future? -sigh-

[ShyGuy]

I really hope they figure out how to make a Wii virtual console soon.

[sweetfeathery]

1: Is there enough demand to justify a second print run? Probably not. How many people are really calling Gamestops around the country asking for the game? Hundreds? Thousands? How many thousands? Sad reality of business.


2: I'd rather have MS working on new games instead of having them revisit a game they finished making just 3  years ago. There's plenty of time later on for an HD remake. Not now.


3: Backwards compatibility and the isolation of Wii mode in Wii U probably make this unfeasible for the time being. Let's worry about Gamecube games first before we start demanding Wii games on the eShop. Pandora's Tower was a perfect candidate for the eShop and look what happened there.


I think even before OP Rainfall, you could have looked at Xenoblade, Last Story and Pandora's Towers as games you had to get at or near the release date, or risk not playing them at all.


EDIT: Spoken as someone who traded in the (most likely) only copy of "F1 2009" in Puerto Rico. Trading in games that will be hard to find in the future? -sigh-

Getting a digital copy on the Wii U would be no problem for Nintendo to preform at all. Its the fact that they sit on their hands and choose to do nothing is my issue.

[Oblivion]

You think that, but do you know the process it takes to do that?

[Soren]

Getting a digital copy on the Wii U would be no problem for Nintendo to preform at all. Its the fact that they sit on their hands and choose to do nothing is my issue.

Digital or not, that still means porting the game to Wii U and giving it basic Wii U features like Off-TV play, Miiverse support,etc. Even if it were still SD(which nobody would want) it would still take significant time and effort.


Again, I'd rather have MS and other Nintendo first parties working to make new games for the system instead of an HD remake of a niche game that came out less than a year ago in the US market.

[sweetfeathery]

Porting a Wii game online to a Wii U would not bean issue at all. The only time Nintendo had a "loss" offering something digitally was when they tried to re-render Excitebike on the 3DS because they wanted it to have a 3D option. The investment it took to offer that did not pay off. Had they just offered a simple port they would have been fine.

[Kytim89]

I do not see any reason why Nintendo would pass up the opportunity to continue their Nintendo selects on the Wii U eShop because its free money. 

[sweetfeathery]

Free money indeed.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I sold my copy for £15, lol. It's only a video game. Why anyone would pay $145 for it is beyond me. It was a good game, perhaps even a great one; but it's not $145 great.

[ejamer]

So you traded a low-print, limited distribution, console exclusive game that almost didn't get released at all to get the "latest  greatest" Halo and now regret the fact you can't get your game back? Hard to feel much sympathy. Stop looking back and just move on.


Yes, you are missing a good game. Yes, there are dozens of other good games worth playing that are easily available. Wii U has already shown trailers for a game that appears to be the Xenoblade successor - when that comes out grab a copy and stop worrying.

[Adrock]

The best you can probably hope for is a Wii U Virtual Console release. I don't think the game was popular enough anywhere to warrant an HD release, especially since it's not part of a compilation to increase its value. I suppose it has a better chance if X is related and even then, that's pushing it. This isn't Zelda or Mario we're talking about.

Let's assume an HD version (not a full remake) is made, it's still iffy that it gets a retail release in the US. Wii U's anemic lineup does tip the scales a bit. Wii U could use as much decent content as possible to bolster its library and an HD version could probably be made in less than a year.

[pokepal148]

it's simply a dick move
but nintendo selects on the VC is a great idea

[Shaymin]

I sold my copy for £15, lol. It's only a video game. Why anyone would pay $145 for it is beyond me. It was a good game, perhaps even a great one; but it's not $145 great.

It's a lot easier to find EU copies of Xenoblade than NA copies. The game's availability here basically dropped off a cliff in January.


Hmm... that sounds familiar.

[nickmitch]

The only way I see Nintendo putting it on the eShop is if the Wii Channel gets upgraded and they literally have to do nothing else but put the game in the eShop to run in the Wii Channel.

[NWR_insanolord]

People would be pissed at them if they didn't at least add Off-TV play. It would require some level of work to make a version people wouldn't complain endlessly about.

[Ian Sane]

I think it is absolutely hilarious that NOA just refused to release this game during a major Wii drought in 2011 and now after only a year it's like the Wii's Earthbound.

Some sort of digital release timed to coincide with X's North American release would be ideal.  They re-release DKC Returns, a game that any idiot can buy in stores right this minute, but this goes for over $100 on eBay and they sit on it.

[Adrock]

Donkey Kong as an IP is way more popular and Returns is getting ported to a more "gamer" oriented hardware. It's fairly obvious why it's getting a rerelease and Xenoblade (currently) isn't. Xenoblade is only going for absurd amounts online due to being rare, but far fewer people want it compared to Donkey Kong, even fewer people want it at those ridic marked up prices. If Xenoblade was available in the same quantities as Donkey Kong Country Returns, you couldn't give the game to people. Everyone who wanted it would already have it. That's not a knock on its quality. Actual demand for the game isn't that high. It only looks that way because it was a limited release.

Nintendo makes some head-scratching moves, but this actually makes a lot of sense for them. Donkey Kong will sell to more people. It will still sell on 3DS. The same can't be said for Xenoblade. The game already reached many of the people who even wanted it with its limited run.

[pokepal148]

So you traded a low-print, limited distribution, console exclusive game that almost didn't get released at all to get the "latest  greatest" Halo and now regret the fact you can't get your game back? Hard to feel much sympathy. Stop looking back and just move on.


Yes, you are missing a good game. Yes, there are dozens of other good games worth playing that are easily available. Wii U has already shown trailers for a game that appears to be the Xenoblade successor - when that comes out grab a copy and stop worrying.

excuse me if i was saving for a Wii U, i wasn't in great financal state and i expected... idk a decent launch

[Soren]

Donkey Kong as an IP is way more popular and Returns is getting ported to a more "gamer" oriented hardware. It's fairly obvious why it's getting a rerelease and Xenoblade (currently) isn't. Xenoblade is only going for absurd amounts online due to being rare, but far fewer people want it compared to Donkey Kong, even fewer people want it at those ridic marked up prices. If Xenoblade was available in the same quantities as Donkey Kong Country Returns, you couldn't give the game to people. Everyone who wanted it would already have it. That's not a knock on its quality. Actual demand for the game isn't that high. It only looks that way because it was a limited release.

Nintendo makes some head-scratching moves, but this actually makes a lot of sense for them. Donkey Kong will sell to more people. It will still sell on 3DS. The same can't be said for Xenoblade. The game already reached many of the people who even wanted it with its limited run.

This. Also it's not a direct comparison since DKCR3d is the handheld version of a console game.

[Ian Sane]

Donkey Kong as an IP is way more popular and Returns is getting ported to a more "gamer" oriented hardware. It's fairly obvious why it's getting a rerelease and Xenoblade (currently) isn't. Xenoblade is only going for absurd amounts online due to being rare, but far fewer people want it compared to Donkey Kong, even fewer people want it at those ridic marked up prices. If Xenoblade was available in the same quantities as Donkey Kong Country Returns, you couldn't give the game to people. Everyone who wanted it would already have it. That's not a knock on its quality. Actual demand for the game isn't that high. It only looks that way because it was a limited release.

Nintendo makes some head-scratching moves, but this actually makes a lot of sense for them. Donkey Kong will sell to more people. It will still sell on 3DS. The same can't be said for Xenoblade. The game already reached many of the people who even wanted it with its limited run.

I would say the demand for a DKC Returns at this point was about ZERO until Nintendo announced it for the 3DS and the usual suckers decided they just had to buy Malibu Stacy with a new hat.  If you want that game it is available in stores right this second.  It will sell because double dips sell with suckers but no one was asking for it.  But with Xenoblade there are people that specifically want some sort of re-release, even if it's another print run, because they want the game and cannot buy it a mere year after its release.  The DKC Returns re-release exists solely because of greed and the ability to exploit the gullibility of suckers.  A Xenoblade re-release would be a legitimate service.

But the redundant DKC Returns re-release will probably sell well... because people are idiots.  I don't know if a Xenoblade re-release would bomb though.  If handled right I think it could do well, it just has to be handled like a more niche title.

Some sort of online store for Wii titles would be in Nintendo's best interest anyway and that is the most cost effective way to re-release this game.  Nintendo could also put of the more mainstream games like Mario and Zelda.  Nintendo could put the entire Wii first party lineup on the store and get some sales from people who missed a game the first time around.  They offer digital versions of Wii U games so what's the difference?

[NWR_insanolord]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold 4 million copies in North America in a month. Even if it were $1, Xenoblade wouldn't come close to selling 4 million copies in a month. They are not in anywhere close to the same league.

[marty]

oh, silly Nintendo: shelve an anticipated game for 2 years, then do a half-ass job releasing it.

[Fatty The Hutt]

I am expecting new features to be announced for DKCR 3DS. Like new levels or tweaked gameplay or StreetPass or some sort of online. Or maybe a combo of those things or all of them.
I'll wait to see what is included in the final package, including the price, before I declare this a worthless double-dip that no one but suckers wants.

[nickmitch]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold 4 million copies in North America in a month. Even if it were $1, Xenoblade wouldn't come close to selling 4 million copies in a month. They are not in anywhere close to the same league.

Being only a dollar would probably hurt its sales as some people would likely see that as an indicator of its quality.

[ejamer]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold 4 million copies in North America in a month. Even if it were $1, Xenoblade wouldn't come close to selling 4 million copies in a month. They are not in anywhere close to the same league.

Being only a dollar would probably hurt its sales as some people would likely see that as an indicator of its quality.

Doesn't seem to hurt iOS games on the app store.  The number of people who will buy cheap junk just because it's cheap far outweigh the number who are discerning enough to think that price is indicative of quality.

[UncleBob]

Ian's post is based on the conclusion that everyone bought DKCR for Wii.

This is untrue.

[nickmitch]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold 4 million copies in North America in a month. Even if it were $1, Xenoblade wouldn't come close to selling 4 million copies in a month. They are not in anywhere close to the same league.

Being only a dollar would probably hurt its sales as some people would likely see that as an indicator of its quality.

Doesn't seem to hurt iOS games on the app store.  The number of people who will buy cheap junk just because it's cheap far outweigh the number who are discerning enough to think that price is indicative of quality.

Because iOS games aren't usually more than $5, and nobody sells free games on consoles. That's not at all an apples to apple comparison. If I see a BRAND NEW console game that I've never heard of for $1 in a $50-60 market, I'm gonna assume something is terribly wrong with that game for it to be a dollar. If you see a brand new console game for $30-40 you think it's a budget game, might be good. 15 bucks? Probably shovel-ware.

[lolmonade]

I think the best chance we have at getting availability of Xenoblade is if Nintendo works to get a digital port on the e-shop sometime leading up to the sequel's release as a means of promoting the Wii U Xenoblade game.
 
It seems like after reading your post that you really do realize you dun goofed, but let this be a lesson: don't trade-in video games unless you're sure you'll never play them again, especially for a franchise like Halo which you KNOW will be readily available years from now. 
 
Cmon, people.  Don't need to be antagonistic/Play Nintendo Defense Force when someone brings up some not-so-unreasonable grievances over a highly-anticipated game that got a limited release.

[Adrock]

Nintendo Defense Force sounds like it could be a really great parody cross-over game.

[lolmonade]

Nintendo Defense Force sounds like it could be a really great parody cross-over game.

Or maybe Saturday morning cartoon?

[ejamer]

...
excuse me if i was saving for a Wii U, i wasn't in great financal state and i expected... idk a decent launch

Not sure that... sentence (?) make sense.  But I'm guessing you're saying that you don't have money for or interest in a Wii U console?  No worries.  The Xenoblade sequel won't be out for at least a year, probably longer given NoA's track record.  Start putting a dollar away every day or two, and by the time the Xenoblade sequel is released you'll have enough for the console and game - better yet, by that point in time the Wii U will have enough games that it'll be worth owning.


On the flipside, if you decide not to grab a Wii U you'd have more than enough for a copy of the original even at highly inflated prices.

...
Because iOS games aren't usually more than $5, and nobody sells free games on consoles. That's not at all an apples to apple comparison. If I see a BRAND NEW console game that I've never heard of for $1 in a $50-60 market, I'm gonna assume something is terribly wrong with that game for it to be a dollar. If you see a brand new console game for $30-40 you think it's a budget game, might be good. 15 bucks? Probably shovel-ware.

First, the example you give ($15) is significantly different than the original one ($1).


Second, while you might judge games based on pricing the majority of people fall into two categories: uninformed buyers who find brand names and/or low prices appealing for blind-buy purchases, or informed buyers who look to reviews and other sources of information before buying. Xenoblade would sell extremely well to both groups if priced that low.


Finally, it doesn't really matter. There is no way that a new game with the size/scope/quality of Xenoblade could be sold in a console market (arguably, any single market) for that price. So this whole argument is moot.

[Soren]

http://kotaku.com/extreme-gamestop-pricing-leaves-some-fans-calling-scam-1108627828

So Gamestop has miraculously gotten a fresh stock of used copies of Xenoblade which they're selling. For $90.

Yup. $90. Like a boss. dealwithit.gif.  Oh and there's this:

One GameStop source tells us the retailer printed a few thousand copies of the game with no shrink wrap in order to restock their inventory, then labeled them as pre-owned. Reached for comment, a GameStop rep told us they're looking into it.

If this is true, and Gamestop really is printing new copies of Xenoblade (with Club Nintendo cards and everything!) and is selling them for $90 then it is an absolute ripoff and a borderline scam.

I think now is the time for Nintendo to step up and do something. Allowing Gamestop to do this is insane.

EDIT: The Gaf link on the article has more info, including different cases and a redesigned product page on the Gamestop website.

[RABicle]

I payed AU$90 for Xenoblade and that was a bargain considering the RRP was $99
Did you know today is buy an Australian a game day? You guys can get me anything on my steam wishlist thanks.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I payed AU$90 for Xenoblade and that was a bargain considering the RRP was $99
Did you know today is buy an Australian a game day? You guys can get me anything on my steam wishlist thanks.

Just remember guys and gals, they're Australian. So just be sure that whichever game you decide to buy for them includes puppies and rainbows and does not include anything detrimental to their fragile psyche.

[Soren]

Two theories seem to be running around: 1)Legits reprint. 2)Gamestop knew the game was going to be rare and set aside a few thousand copies of the original print run for an occasion such as this.

The reprints being sold as pre-owned are good as new, just not shrink wrapped. The discs have no scratches, the Club Nintendo cards work, and they still have the Skyward Sword/Kirby/Rhythm Heaven flyer.

I'm thinking #2 is what's going on.

[ejamer]

Two theories seem to be running around: 1)Legits reprint. 2)Gamestop knew the game was going to be rare and set aside a few thousand copies of the original print run for an occasion such as this.

The reprints being sold as pre-owned are good as new, just not shrink wrapped. The discs have no scratches, the Club Nintendo cards work, and they still have the Skyward Sword/Kirby/Rhythm Heaven flyer.

I'm thinking #2 is what's going on.

Agree that #2 seems more likely.  Not entirely confident that I can chalk it up to GameStop actually planning this "in case it became valuable" instead of actually misplacing the stock and just now realizing (a) they have it, and (b) it's worth a lot more than it would've been at MSRP.

[lolmonade]

Issues exactly like this are why there needs to be a digital release of this game on the eShop.  You can't tell me there wouldn't be an adequate ROI on making something like this available digitally.  It's also easy advertising for the follow-up Xeno title coming in 2014.

[Ian Sane]

Holding onto stock on purpose would be a really clever idea.  It's obvious that a game sold exclusively through one store would become rare.  Hell, since Gamestop helped publish it they probably were privy to the print run number so there would be less speculation on its future rarity.  It's pretty much a sure thing.  So meet the initial demand and pre-orders and hang on to the rest for later.  Sneaky but totally brilliant (and morally questionable).

Now this could become a big problem if Nintendo just lets it happen (and if anyone on this planet has no idea this is happening it's NOA), not so much with future games, but future consoles.  A lot of consoles sell out at launch and the used price is pretty high while manufacturing catches up to demand.  So think back to the Wii frenzy.  If my store gets a shipment of new Wiis while every single one that hits the shelf gets grabbed up, why not hang on to half of them and release them as used product where I can charge whatever inflated price the market will tolerate?  How much do you even risk?  If the console doesn't move as quickly as you expect you just don't open the packaging up and put it on the shelf as new product, the same new product you would have had on the shelf anyway.

[UncleBob]

There's also a rumor that these discs are ones that Nintendo had set aside for warranty replacement - and once they were most all out of warranty, they've unloaded them in new cases.

[pokepal148]

It could be that gamestop HQ requested all traded in copys be sent to a warehouse or something.

[NWR_insanolord]

Bill Trinen retweeted a report of this happening yesterday, so it seems safe to say NOA is aware of and at least tacitly condoning this.

[Stogi]

Softmod your Wii.

[Mop it up]

I heard about this elsewhere, it's pretty funny, and certainly possible, given that it's GameStop.

[nickmitch]

Economics at work.

Pretty smart move by GameStop, if this really is their doing. eBay prices from the link in that article were higher than $90.

[pokepal148]

Economics at work.

Pretty smart move by GameStop, if this really is their doing. eBay prices from the link in that article were higher than $90.

with some clever trade ins you could probably whittle down the price to $50(if you go for in store credit)

[Shaymin]

PowerUp Rewards + coupon code Aug15 (best code ever) gets it down to $68.

[Oblivion]

People on r/gaming and r/Games are in a tizzy over this. I said it wasn't that bad and they downvoted the **** out of me and started claiming "hail corporate" and all that jazz. It was pretty funny how angry people get over simple economics.

[lolmonade]

People on r/gaming and r/Games are in a tizzy over this. I said it wasn't that bad and they downvoted the **** out of me and started claiming "hail corporate" and all that jazz. It was pretty funny how angry people get over simple economics.

You shouldn't be that surprised.  As often as I visit the site, Reddit is one of the worst hiveminds on the internet.  Hating on Gamestop is an easy path for oodles of upvotes.

[UncleBob]

Well, that's because GameStop *does* suck.

This may not as much be an example of it (although if they really did *open* sealed games just to sell them at a higher price, *that* is an example of them sucking.  Seriously, sell them at the higher price all you want, but keep them sealed!), there are plenty of reasons why GameStop sucks.

[NWR_insanolord]

They may have removed the plastic because they would have gotten in trouble with Nintendo for selling new copies for that much. But really, I'm with UncleBob, GameStop is a shitty, shitty company, so this whole thing shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[UncleBob]

Except that, officially, you can't "get in trouble" with Nintendo for selling stuff above MSRP.

Nintendo learned that back in the 80's.  Where have you been?

[NWR_insanolord]

officially

[Khushrenada]

Except that, officially, you can't "get in trouble" with Nintendo for selling stuff above MSRP.

Nintendo learned that back in the 80's.  Where have you been?

He's been busy taking the plastic off a bunch of copies of Xenoblade so Gamestop can sell them as used. It took a while. That plastic is hard to get off.

[marty]

GS had a complete monopoly on new retail shop sales as well a majority control of the used market.  The game was never released in a competitive market so free market economics don't apply.  Those claiming "economics" really should a)stop b)learn more about economics.

[shingi_70]

I blame Nintendo for not having a gamecube/Wii VC in the works. (as far as we know mind you). That would have been one of the first things I would announced even if it wouldn't be ready for a year.

[Oblivion]

GS had a complete monopoly on new retail shop sales as well a majority control of the used market.  The game was never released in a competitive market so free market economics don't apply.  Those claiming "economics" really should a)stop b)learn more about economics.

Wrong. It's simply supply and demand. There's a small selection of the game and a huge demand for it, so they charge a premium. If they had a hundred million copies and/or not a huge demand, it wouldn't be $90. Being the official retailer doesn't matter in this point because a lot people want this game and they don't have very many of them.


And considering you can get the game used in many online markets, I wouldn't say they have a major control over the used market.

[Ian Sane]

Gamestop doesn't have a monopoly on the used market and since you could buy the game online from Nintendo directly they didn't truly have a monopoly on the new version of Xenoblade either.

Nintendo can't legally come after them for this but if they honestly withheld copies for this purchase, do they think Nintendo is going to want to make an exclusive deal like this again?  Maybe the next batch of pre-order goodies goes to Best Buy or Toys 'R' Us.  And the hell that Gamestop will ever get a Nintendo exclusive again.

[UncleBob]

Well, that's because GameStop *does* suck.

This may not as much be an example of it (although if they really did *open* sealed games just to sell them at a higher price, *that* is an example of them sucking.  Seriously, sell them at the higher price all you want, but keep them sealed!), there are plenty of reasons why GameStop sucks.

officially

Here's the thing though, If GS *is* pulling something, it doesn't matter if they took the plastic off or not.  They'll still face the wrath of Nintendo.

[marty]

@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.


second, the fact that GS seems to have artificially manipulated scarcity by withholding supply means that the market could never have achieved equilibrium. The principals of supply and demand ("economics") never came into play.


third, GS clearly has great control over all new sales and overall supply.  That fact alone means they have great influence on the used market even before considering they are they are the leading used game retailer.  GS made 2 billion dollars last year in used game sales, from the figures I've read.  Is any other brick and mortar store doing that kind of business?  Not that I've read.  Feel free to post whatever used videogame sales figures from any specific online used game retailer if you want contend that GS isn't the major player in the used game market.


fourth, supply and demand is an economic model.  if there was a demand for something at a price with a higher profit margin, supply will increase.  That's what supply and demand means.  The fact that when demand for XC was highest, the price was $50.  Saying there is more of a demand now, when the price is higher, than when the game was selling new, when the price was lower, is wrong and does not fit the supply and demand model AT ALL.  Supply falls as the price drops.  Demand increases as the price drops.  Supply increases as the price increases.  Demand falls as the price increases.  Supply and demand meet at a price.  Is that what's happening? NO, so stop saying supply and demand.  It doesn't apply.


Even if XC were following anything resembling free-market behavior, I doubt you'd find anyone that knew about economics to cite it as a good example of normal economic behavior considering that it's release at all is not representative of how videogames are sold or how the videogame market, at large, operates.

[marty]

Gamestop doesn't have a monopoly on the used market and since you could buy the game online from Nintendo directly they didn't truly have a monopoly on the new version of Xenoblade either.

I never said they had a monopoly on the used market, they just control a large portion of it.
I never said they had a monopoly on the new market for XC, just that they had a monopoly of the offline retail market. 

[pokepal148]

At least you can trade in some crud(so long mk7) to bring the price down to a reasonable 50$.

Or take advantage of the next buy two get one free sales that always wind up centralizing on pre-owned games in order to average it out that way.

Seriously i have not played this game and i am thrilled to have an opportunity. this may be another sleezy move by gamestop but it still beats the thread namesake by a long shot.

[Oblivion]

@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Is this anger the same anger you guys felt when I told you guys to take a few debate classes? Jesus dude, **** you. Nothing of what I said warranted that kind of response besides the one I'm giving you now.

[pokepal148]

...Jesus dude, **** you....

[marty]

@ oblivion,
first, I think you're out of your depth.  Maybe take a few economics courses and learn what supply and demand are and what economics is.  writing "wrong" and following it up with argumentative bs is just rude.  take it down a notch if you think I'm wrong and prepare a real argument.  I hate to judge too harshly but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Is this anger the same anger you guys felt when I told you guys to take a few debate classes? Jesus dude, **** you. Nothing of what I said warranted that kind of response besides the one I'm giving you now.

anger? nope.  I wrote a level-headed response to you pointing out exactly why it's wrong for you, or anyone, to cite "economics" or "supply and demand" as some sort of valid appraisal of the GS/XC situation.  I also pointed out that it's simply rude to write "wrong" and then try and bs you way through an argument.  I did this without ad hominem, insult, or rudeness. 


I don't know what you're trying to prove by being rude now.  Why not just concede that "economics" and "supply and demand" are not good responses for the reasons I stated--or any number of other, valid reasons, and move on?  Or actually debate that "economics" and "supply and demand" are valid response with actual facts and knowledge?  Or show some humility and civility?  If all you have to offer is snark and rudeness, you're not worth engaging.  You call, obviously.  Good luck!

[nickmitch]

GS made 2 billion dollars last year in used game sales, from the figures I've read.  Is any other brick and mortar store doing that kind of business?  Not that I've read.  Feel free to post whatever used videogame sales figures from any specific online used game retailer if you want contend that GS isn't the major player in the used game market.

Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.

fourth, supply and demand is an economic model.  if there was a demand for something at a price with a higher profit margin, supply will increase.  That's what supply and demand means.  The fact that when demand for XC was highest, the price was $50.  Saying there is more of a demand now, when the price is higher, than when the game was selling new, when the price was lower, is wrong and does not fit the supply and demand model AT ALL.  Supply falls as the price drops.  Demand increases as the price drops.  Supply increases as the price increases.  Demand falls as the price increases.  Supply and demand meet at a price.  Is that what's happening? NO, so stop saying supply and demand.  It doesn't apply.

Videogames typically have fixed prices because publishers artificially set them that way. The price was never meant to move. You seem to have a grasp of basic economic theory, but the truth is that things rarely work out that way. The supply that a seller is willing to provide falls as the price drops, sure. But the actual amount of available units was never that high to begin with. And to defend GS, one theory is that they're publishing more copies themselves because they can sell them for $90 a pop. That's your supply curve. Further, there's way more things that determine demand than just the price, including artificial scarcity. (Which is the future, BTW)

[marty]

Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.

The $2B is an estimate I've seen repeatedly over the last few years and I can't vouch for how accurate it is, but I can see how the low cost of used games vs their resale price provides a very attractive return.  I know GS has their problems but their revenue for FY12 was over $8.5B--how much of that was from used game sales I can't say for sure (a familiar estimate was 75%).  "made" might not be most accurate word. Estimated net worth of GS used game sales might be a better term, if similarly vague.  Overall profitability aside, I still can't see any way around acknowledging that GS is the big-dog in the used game market, especially when it comes to offline retail.

Videogames typically have fixed prices because publishers artificially set them that way. The price was never meant to move. You seem to have a grasp of basic economic theory, but the truth is that things rarely work out that way. The supply that a seller is willing to provide falls as the price drops, sure. But the actual amount of available units was never that high to begin with. And to defend GS, one theory is that they're publishing more copies themselves because they can sell them for $90 a pop. That's your supply curve. Further, there's way more things that determine demand than just the price, including artificial scarcity. (Which is the future, BTW)

There's a LOT of things going on in the videogame biz that prevent fair markets from existing while still allowing for certain economic principals to be applicable at some level.  My basic point is that people should stop using "economics" and "supply and demand" as catch-all terms when discussing sales of 1 game in a larger video-game market-- especially when the game was released in a way that prevented competition which would allow/force the sales to follow basic market supply and demand curves AND it isn't even remotely representative of how videogames are sold in the US.

[lolmonade]

..but supply and demand does play a large part of why Gamestop can set such a high price-point and most likely get away with it.  Yes, it's true that Gamestop was the exclusive retailer carrying it besides Nintendo, but that doesn't change the fact that there was limited quantities available at time of purchase, there was demand for the product spurred by the good reviews/press it got, and then lead to $400 used copies floating around on the internet.
 
Assumedly, Gamestop saw an opportunity, either "found" extra copies or had additional pressed, and marked them as used because they can.  They can fix prices any way they'd like on used copies, and once Gamestop purchases copies from the manufacturer, I imagine they're well within their rights to sell them as either "new' or "used", whichever nets them the most benefit.
 
In turn, as much as this is ruffling everyone's feathers, more supply will reduce the resale value of these games, so they are inadvertently helping those who might consider trying to find the game down the line.
 
At the end of the day, the anger should be directed towards Nintendo, not Gamestop, for encouraging this type of behavior.  Gamestop's behavior is a symptom of Nintendo not producing enough of the product to meet demand, and then themselves not jumping on the opportunity to release pent-up demand.

[UncleBob]

Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

[marty]

..but supply and demand does play a large part of why Gamestop can set such a high price-point and most likely get away with it.  Yes, it's true that Gamestop was the exclusive retailer carrying it besides Nintendo, but that doesn't change the fact that there was limited quantities available at time of purchase, there was demand for the product spurred by the good reviews/press it got, and then lead to $400 used copies floating around on the internet.


Assumedly, Gamestop saw an opportunity, either "found" extra copies or had additional pressed, and marked them as used because they can.  They can fix prices any way they'd like on used copies, and once Gamestop purchases copies from the manufacturer, I imagine they're well within their rights to sell them as either "new' or "used", whichever nets them the most benefit.

It's simply unhelpful to assess a portion of such a small, short term case with the language and tools used to describe long-term behavior.  It's like watching a scoreless inning of baseball and saying that both pitchers have a MLB lifetime ERA of 0.  Even that were true, it's not helpful because the stat doesn't explain the context of why it's true.  Both pitchers could have just come up from the minors or any number of possibilities that would explain why an extremely rare behavior of statistics would agree with a poorly formed assumption.


Yes, if one ignores reason, market history, and the principals economic theory is founded on, he can declare that the used $90 disk just put up for sale found its price through "supply and demand."  Just realize that he's not saying anything of any substance or accuracy when he does.  Taking into account the exclusivity, lack of competition in the used market, Nintendo's complacency and general lack of motivation to sell the game (the odd release seems to suggest that they're not trying to maximize their own profitability--at least not through sales numbers) and the overall picture is not one of a healthy market where price is settled on by supply and demand--it's appears corrupted by market manipulation through artificial scarcity and price fixing.

In turn, as much as this is ruffling everyone's feathers, more supply will reduce the resale value of these games, so they are inadvertently helping those who might consider trying to find the game down the line.
 
At the end of the day, the anger should be directed towards Nintendo, not Gamestop, for encouraging this type of behavior.  Gamestop's behavior is a symptom of Nintendo not producing enough of the product to meet demand, and then themselves not jumping on the opportunity to release pent-up demand.

well, no disagreement there.

[nickmitch]

Supply goes up as price goes up. GS saw the price (probably on eBay) was going up, so they increased the supply. Simple as that. Saying they're a monopoly just means that they can dictate the price (which they did). So, there's that. Marty, I get your point about using catch-all terms, but put the most simple way: GameStop can charge $90 for that game because people will pay it. The demand for that game doesn't seem particularly price elastic.

Just going to note here that GameStop's Net Income for FY12 was a $270M loss. But they did have a massive goodwill impairment, and their EBITDA is more like $800M. Either way, it's hard to say the company "made" $2B on anything.

The $2B is an estimate I've seen repeatedly over the last few years and I can't vouch for how accurate it is, but I can see how the low cost of used games vs their resale price provides a very attractive return.  I know GS has their problems but their revenue for FY12 was over $8.5B--how much of that was from used game sales I can't say for sure (a familiar estimate was 75%).  "made" might not be most accurate word. Estimated net worth of GS used game sales might be a better term, if similarly vague.  Overall profitability aside, I still can't see any way around acknowledging that GS is the big-dog in the used game market, especially when it comes to offline retail.

A familiar estimate, you say? Because GameStop's financial statements say 27.4%. They gross about $1.2B for used sales.

[lolmonade]

Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

You make a good point that Nintendo's customer is typically the retail outlet that sells the game to the end-user, but in Xenoblade's case, they offered it only through Gamestop or Nintendo's website.
 
If Nintendo really wanted to blow a hole in Gamestop's sails, they offer it on their website at retail price in another limited run of copies of the game.

[Retro Deckades]

Why can't Nintendo take pre-orders for the reprinting of a game like Xenoblade Chronicles through their own website? Wouldn't they then be able to determine whether or not the demand exists and if a reprint would be worth it?

[Oblivion]

Because this isn't a big deal to them or Gamestop.

[UncleBob]

Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

You make a good point that Nintendo's customer is typically the retail outlet that sells the game to the end-user, but in Xenoblade's case, they offered it only through Gamestop or Nintendo's website.

Just a guess, but considering Xenoblade was a virtually unknown JRPG on a dying system owned by casual Wii Fit players, what are the odds that GameStop was the only major retailer that expressed any interest in carrying it?

Perhaps Nintendo only sold it via GameStop because no one else really cared to carry it.

[pokepal148]

but what about amazon and other online retailers

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

You make a good point that Nintendo's customer is typically the retail outlet that sells the game to the end-user, but in Xenoblade's case, they offered it only through Gamestop or Nintendo's website.

Just a guess, but considering Xenoblade was a virtually unknown JRPG on a dying system owned by casual Wii Fit players, what are the odds that GameStop was the only major retailer that expressed any interest in carrying it?

Perhaps Nintendo only sold it via GameStop because no one else really cared to carry it.

I always assumed that GameStop came to Nintendo and offered to help publish the game in exchage for exclusivity.  NOA sat on this game for over a year during a time when the Wii was going months without any games and ANY title would have been welcome.  It was probably less of an issue of Nintendo finding a store that would carry it as much as GameStop convincing NOA to release the game at all.  If NOA wanted to release it they probably would have in 2011.  GameStop observed Operation Rainfall and figured there was some demand for Xenoblade and made a deal with Nintendo.

And what is so impressive about this is that GameStop's deal with Nintendo is precisely WHY the game is rare and can now be sold for $90.  It's like the whole thing was carefully orchestrated like some bank heist in a movie.

[Khushrenada]

One thing I found odd was that here in Canada, other outlets besides EB Games (owned by Gamestop) carried Xenoblade. I saw it for sale at Future Shop and Best Buy on their shelves. It may even been at Superstore and Wal-mart but my memory is fuzzy on those two and I may just be associating seeing Last Story and Pandora's Tower on their shelves with also including Xenoblade. But for sure, FS and BB had it.

In fact, it was during a visit to a Best Buy to kill a bit of time and see what might be for sale that I realized they didn't have any copies of Xenoblade in stock. Worried I might have missed my chance, I then went to other locations of BB and FS and couldn't find any. The website said they had no stock to order online. Went to EBGames but they were out of stock also. EBay prices were already getting to $70 and higher for copies.

I checked out one other video game store called Play N' Trade and they still had 3 new copies so I bought one at $63.00 which I was kicking myself for because I could have bought it for fifty-some dollars on release so waiting on the purchase backfired. However, considering the situation in purchasing a copy now, I guess I still didn't do too bad. Since I hadn't planned on playing it anytime soon, I never bothered to unwrap it. I still have it sealed and untouched. Right now, it's probably the most valuable game I own.

The point of this reminiscing however is that in Canada, EBGames didn't seem to have an exclusive deal on this title. Same thing with Chibi-Robo. I think Wal-Mart was supposed to be the exclusive retailer for that game in the states but here in Canada, EBGames was selling brand new copies of the game also. Who knows how this stuff gets figured out?

[Ian Sane]

The only place in Canada I saw with Xenoblade besides GameStop was Willow Video Games, a local chain in the Vancouver area I frequent.  But this was a few months after the game came out and I figured they got new copies through GameStop clearing them out or something like that, as the store has had new copies of out-of-print games through methods like that before (ie: liquidation).  I assumed it was an exceptional circumstance.  But then I was never one to casually browse the Wii section of major stores like Best Buy (like I want to stare at a shelf full of Petz and Carnival Games) so if they were there I wouldn't have noticed them.

But it's a different country so different deals are made.  I assume Canadian stores get their stock from Nintendo of Canada.

[UncleBob]

I always assumed that GameStop came to Nintendo and offered to help publish the game in exchage for exclusivity.  NOA sat on this game for over a year during a time when the Wii was going months without any games and ANY title would have been welcome.  It was probably less of an issue of Nintendo finding a store that would carry it as much as GameStop convincing NOA to release the game at all.  If NOA wanted to release it they probably would have in 2011.  GameStop observed Operation Rainfall and figured there was some demand for Xenoblade and made a deal with Nintendo.

Retailers took a pretty big hit with Sin and Punishment.  I think they were reluctant to bite on Xenoblade.  Even if a few big online retailers were interested, there's a chance that the order quantity just wasn't enough to interest Nintendo until GameStop came along and said "Hey, make it exclusive and we'll order X amount."

But this is all meaningless speculation at this point.

[Shaymin]

I saw one copy of Xenoblade at a Canadian Best Buy, and it was a preowned.

Then again, I day 1'd the game so it's not like I was looking too hard.

[lolmonade]

Because this isn't a big deal to them or Gamestop.

This is sadly the truth.  It probably comes down to a few factors:

1)  Nintendo doesn't think the investment to gather pre-orders and print new copies is worth the time & resources, especially since:
2)  Nintendo seems to be strapped resource-wise anyway.  We've all read the articles about how Nintendo has found HD games harder to produce than they've anticipated, and it's caused the Wii U games to come out at a trickle.  With the limited resources they have, they have to focus on the projects that'll provide the best possible return on investment.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure Xenoblade is on that list.

[lolmonade]

Nintendo produces to meet retailer demand.  Generally.

You make a good point that Nintendo's customer is typically the retail outlet that sells the game to the end-user, but in Xenoblade's case, they offered it only through Gamestop or Nintendo's website.

Just a guess, but considering Xenoblade was a virtually unknown JRPG on a dying system owned by casual Wii Fit players, what are the odds that GameStop was the only major retailer that expressed any interest in carrying it?

Perhaps Nintendo only sold it via GameStop because no one else really cared to carry it.

That's a fair enough point.  I'm noticing the larger chains' (Target, Best Buy) game selections are being scaled-back in my area, so it's quite possible that they didn't want to take what was considered a niche title and then end up having to put it in a discount bin a few months later if they didn't sell.

My initial point was that from a consumer standpoint, you would hope that Nintendo would offer copies through their website again if there was potential demand enough that Gamestop can get away with selling copies at $90.

[UncleBob]

That would, of course, all depend on what their initial agreement with GameStop was.  They may not be able to do it at this point.

[pokepal148]

perhaps gamestop was the only physical retailer who would take it but that doesn't explain amazon or the like.

[nickmitch]

Well, it looks like they're at it again!

[UncleBob]

Amazon has to place orders like everyone else.  Determine how much they think they'll be able to sell, order them, and store them until someone places an order for them.

And, remember, Amazon isn't exactly on the best of terms with Nintendo right now.  They're sure not going to go out of their way to sell some niche game for Nintendo.

We have no reason to believe Amazon expressed *any* interest in ordering a large enough quantity of Xenoblade to make it worth Nintendo's time to release it.

[pokepal148]

so I can possibly go for a b1g1 free sale on the two or I can go for a b2g1 free sale and wind up paying 180 for the whole thing.

[Retro Deckades]

Considered ordering a copy of MPT through GameStop's website, but they want $20 to ship the game to Canada. F*** that noise!

[Khushrenada]

Retailers took a pretty big hit with Sin and Punishment. 

True. I picked up a brand new copy for $10 bucks at a local Best Buy as they were clearly trying to get rid of the stock.

[toddra]

I got out of Wii in '08 or so, did the drought really get so severe by the end that it was this bad or is this just a case of one game going unnoticed? One thing that has kept me from getting into Wii U is the shortage of games and not wanting to go through such long dry spells again. 

[nickmitch]

I accidentally ordered two copies (never got the first confirmation page) from Newegg and they sent me both and refunded my money. I think it was $20 at the time.

[Sundoulos]

Amazon has to place orders like everyone else.  Determine how much they think they'll be able to sell, order them, and store them until someone places an order for them.

And, remember, Amazon isn't exactly on the best of terms with Nintendo right now.  They're sure not going to go out of their way to sell some niche game for Nintendo.

We have no reason to believe Amazon expressed *any* interest in ordering a large enough quantity of Xenoblade to make it worth Nintendo's time to release it.

If I recall correctly, at the apex of the Operation Rainfall efforts, there was enough push to (briefly) put preorders for "Monado" at the top of the Amazon pre-orders list.   I don't know what happened of course, or what that would have meant in terms of overall sales, but I can't believe that Amazon was happy about losing those sales once the exclusivity deal with Gamestop was announced.   

[nickmitch]

That's because they got a bunch of people to pre-order it at once, specifically on Amazon.com, to get attention. Those pre-orders can't be taken seriously.

[UncleBob]

What Nick said.  And I don't think it really takes a lot to get to #1 on Amazon.  The $150 Zelda Strategy Guide box set hit #1 - and while it's super neat, I don't see it being a *huge* seller.

[Oblivion]

That's because they got a bunch of people to pre-order it at once, specifically on Amazon.com, to get attention. Those pre-orders can't be taken seriously.

Microsoft did with the Xbox One preorders.

[nickmitch]

Did what? Ask a bunch of people to pre-order it on Amazon?

[Oblivion]

No, you said no one can take Amazon pre-orders seriously. Microsoft did.

[nickmitch]

Oh. Well, I think Xbox One pre-orders are a bit more genuine. The Op. Rain Fall thing was people telling Amazon that they were going to buy a game from them that they knew Amazon probably wasn't going to sell, and in some cases they probably wouldn't even have bought it from them. That kind of statement can't be taken as serious commitments to buy.

[Stratos]

Amazon has to place orders like everyone else.  Determine how much they think they'll be able to sell, order them, and store them until someone places an order for them.

And, remember, Amazon isn't exactly on the best of terms with Nintendo right now.  They're sure not going to go out of their way to sell some niche game for Nintendo.

We have no reason to believe Amazon expressed *any* interest in ordering a large enough quantity of Xenoblade to make it worth Nintendo's time to release it.

Why is Amazon not on the best of terms with Nintendo?

[broodwars]

Amazon has to place orders like everyone else.  Determine how much they think they'll be able to sell, order them, and store them until someone places an order for them.

And, remember, Amazon isn't exactly on the best of terms with Nintendo right now.  They're sure not going to go out of their way to sell some niche game for Nintendo.

We have no reason to believe Amazon expressed *any* interest in ordering a large enough quantity of Xenoblade to make it worth Nintendo's time to release it.

Why is Amazon not on the best of terms with Nintendo?

If I remember correctly, the conventional wisdom is that back in the DS days, Amazon received a large number of DSs with broken hinges.  When their customers, naturally, returned the defective DSs to Amazon, Nintendo allegedly refused to pay Amazon for their defective merchandise.  This meant Amazon had to just eat the extremely high cost of Nintendo's ****-up.  I've heard similar rumors about the 3DS w/ the screen scratching issue (due to the 2 screens being different sizes).  Ever since then, Amazon's relationship with Nintendo has been frigid at best.

It's worth noting, though, that neither Amazon nor Nintendo have ever officially released a statement about why Amazon seemingly changed their stance on Nintendo hardware so severely.

EDIT: Hmmm...I can't find anything online about a dispute between the two companies regarding defective DSs, so I'm probably just remembering that wrong. I did, however, find a lot of stories about screen-scratched 3DSs, so there might very well be fire there.

[UncleBob]

There's been a lot of rumors and gossip about why Nintendo and Amazon aren't BFFs right now.  No one knows for sure though.

[nickmitch]

I heard that eventhough Nintendo knew Sony was gonna be at Amazon's birthday, Nintendo still decided go, but made Amazon promise not to invite EA because Nintendo and EA had just broken up and it would've been totes awky. Anyway, long story short, Nintendo gets to the party, and who's there? EA. Amazon said EA showed up with Microsoft, but Microsoft was only there for like a second. To make it worse, EA got Amazon the same gift that Nintendo got. And I heard that Amazon specifically asked Nintendo for that gift. Amazon said it was a coincidence (as if!) but didn't wanna talk about it because Amazon didn't wanna get involved in their "video games beefs". Nintendo was super upset.