Topic: People Need To Stop Bitching

[Chozo Ghost]

You have to understand I said that in the context of the incredibly disappointing showing of the Wii U at E3, and I only meant that if the Wii U ends up being the casual shovelware only system that the Wii has mostly become. This is by no means set in stone and so my final opinion on the Wii U is still very much subject to change.

[UncleBob]

I believe the quote went on to how you wanted Iwata and Reggie to get fired and such...

[ejamer]

To be fair, Nintendo had no problems releasing Fatal Frame IV outside of Japan, but only if Tecmo fixed the bugs in the game (which Tecmo refused to do).

There are different accounts about just how valid this statement is.  Personally I doubt that it is anywhere close to the whole truth since bugs didn't prevent or significantly delay a Japanese release - but it could be.  I'd bet on Nintendo of America not projecting it to be profitable enough, and then using unreasonable demands on the developers as an excuse for not publishing.  Shady?  Maybe, but that kind of stuff happens all the time.  Sadly, us "outside the know" people will probably never really know the whole truth about why it will never be released here.

Assuming what you say is accurate then it's a shame that Nintendo didn't at least try to sell the rights to other companies who might find a niche release like Fatal Frame 4 worthwhile.  That would've made core gamers happy and would've given Nintendo some return - as opposed to the gamer frustration and complete lack of profit they chose to take instead.

I know, I know... not Nintendo's business model. But as a gamer who wanted the game and would've been happy to take even with some minor bugs, the "just don't give them anything" business model isn't really working for me.

[UncleBob]

I don't often bother to link to Pietriots because I know we've got a bit of crossover between them and those who don't go there likely won't... understand them...

But this is win.

[n-phage]

I hate how some of you keep saying that the Wii had nothing but shovelware. I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual. Maybe instead of worrying about all of the games that weren't being released on the Wii you should have tried some that were. Maybe then you would be more satisfied with it like I am. And if you aren't satisfied with Nintendo anymore then go buy another system and move on with your life. No one is forcing you to buy Nintendo's systems or games. Coming here and arguing isn't going to change anything.

[Chozo Ghost]

Regardless of whatever bugs Fatal Frame 4 may have had, Metroid Other M had a serious game killing bug which makes the game unbeatable and the only option is to start over from the beginning. I would consider that a very serious bug, yet Nintendo shipped Other M without any fuss.

[UncleBob]

Yes, once the bug was discovered, Nintendo should have immediately built a time machine and went back and stopped the release of Other M.

Unless you've got evidence that the game breaking bug was known of before Other M was released.  Like the Fatal Frame bugs that Nintendo knew about... before it was released overseas.

Info on the Fatal Frame bugs: http://andriasang.com/coltvv/nintendo_discloses_fatal_frame_bugs/

[Chozo Ghost]

Yes, once the bug was discovered, Nintendo should have immediately built a time machine and went back and stopped the release of Other M.

Unless you've got evidence that the game breaking bug was known of before Other M was released.  Like the Fatal Frame bugs that Nintendo knew about... before it was released overseas.

That's exactly my point. Other M had a simultaneous worldwide release. If Fatal Frame 4 had a simultaneous release as well then it would have shipped before the bugs were discovered and we wouldn't have gotten ripped off with no game at all.

[UncleBob]

So, why did Temco/Grasshopper not work on the localization of the game simultaneously when creating the Japanese version?

[ThomasO]

I hate how some of you keep saying that the Wii had nothing but shovelware. I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual. Maybe instead of worrying about all of the games that weren't being released on the Wii you should have tried some that were. Maybe then you would be more satisfied with it like I am. And if you aren't satisfied with Nintendo anymore then go buy another system and move on with your life. No one is forcing you to buy Nintendo's systems or games. Coming here and arguing isn't going to change anything.

While I agree with you, you will go ignored, unfortunately (it's already happening).

[UncleBob]

I only have about 70 Wii titles.

Considering the system has been on the market slightly less than 67 months, I say one game a month isn't bad.

[Kairon]

And this is coming from someone who'd be there at midnight to get Captain Rainbow.

T_T. I'll be there at midnight Captain Rainbow. You won't go friendless in this world!

The point isn't whether a game sells well or not. The point is that Nintendo keeps creating fun and innovating game play and that they're free to do so. Naturally this means I want them to sell well enough to make money. But I also want them to take risks on really unique titles and give innovation a chance, regardless of if it sometimes sells like a Captain Rainbow instead of a Wii Music.

I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual.

Hey, same here! We should form a club or something.

[UncleBob]

That was more in reply to the idea that Nintendo is making games people don't want.

People wanted Wii Music more than they'd want Captain Rainbow.

[SixthAngel]

I am tired of all the bitching I see around the internet too.  Most of it is concern trolling by people who have no interest in Nintendo anything and never have.

One thing I noticed with the Wii is how much people on the internet who play games care about PR.  They could be getting big piles of **** shoved down their throat but they will jump and cheer as long the companies proclaim loudly that they really care about this **** and pinched it especially them.  Nintendo can give them the steak they claim they love but because they don't make it the centerpiece of their PR people go crazy that Nintendo doesn't care about them.  They are all "I'm a hardcore gamerz, I don't care that you just made the kind of game I'm supposed to like, I need you to proclaim in front of the world that you care about me and I'm the most important to you."

Also, mark me down as someone who has enough Wii games I got cheap I haven't even played them all yet. 

[Chozo Ghost]

I would also buy Captain Rainbow, that's why I brought it up. Same goes for Fatal Frame 4. The bottom line is I WANT these games to exist and to be able to buy them, but someone (whether that's Reggie or NOA as a whole, I don't know) won't let me. Instead, we get about 5 games out of Nintendo a year and that's it. I really don't want the Wii U to end up being a repeat of this generation. That was why I said I wanted it to fail, but ONLY if that's the case. Otherwise I want it to not only succeed but also be number 1.

I just don't see how likely that will be though as long as Reggie is running NOA and not giving us the games we all want to play. I mentioned two games and many people agreed with me they want to play these games and want to buy them, so the demand is there. There shouldn't have to be major fan campaigns such as Operation Rainfall to convince Reggie to do what he should be doing anyway, because that is his job.

[UncleBob]

Games we want to play doesn't always equal games that sell well.  If Nintendo wants to be #1, they have to find the right balance.

[Kairon]

The bottom line is I WANT these games to exist and to be able to buy them, but someone (whether that's Reggie or NOA as a whole, I don't know) won't let me.
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There shouldn't have to be major fan campaigns such as Operation Rainfall to convince Reggie to do what he should be doing anyway, because that is his job.

I don't think anyone here is complaining about the benefits of operation Rainfall. And I don't think that Nintendo fans will soon forget the painful empty place in our hearts reserved for Mother 3. I definitely don't think Nintendo is perfect, or that they don't possess qualities we shouldn't criticize them for.

But this thread is talking about "bitching," which isn't level-headed, realistic critique and discussion. I completely respect your fears that the Wii U will end up resembling the Wii more than is good for it, and I can understand where they come from. I may not share them, but I'm thrilled to be discussing them genially. That doesn't worry me. I'm concerned with irrational vitriol that destroys the tone of a bunch of Nintendo fans who earnestly and honestly want discuss and think about Nintendo.

[Phil]

Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?

Good. Don't argue then. You're coming across as somewhat obnoxious anyway.

I could say the same about you.

See? This is my point. All you said in this post is "no u" basically. And you constantly whine about every move Nintendo makes (some make sense, but when you bitch about EVERYTHING, it gets easier to ignore you like the boy who cried "I want Wii U to fail"), post false "facts" that are purely your opinion and not based in reality (such as the Wii being mostly a casual shovelware-only platform), ignore arguments or act obtuse to the ones that go against your agenda, and so forth. Forget what I said about coming across as somewhat obnoxious-- you ARE obnoxious. Congrats.

And "no u" is such a pathetic comeback, which is what your post essentially was. I haven't posted enough to be as obnoxious as you are, bud. I had more to say, but I think I'm just going to ignore your comments from here on out. They are usually not based in reality anyway.

EDIT: Sorry to go off-topic. Hopefully the topic can go back on the rails. The sales of games like the ultra niche Captain Rainbow and Fatal Frame 4 would be more trouble than they are worth. Perhaps they could put them on the Wii U downloadable service instead of as a Wii retail game?

[Chozo Ghost]

Games we want to play doesn't always equal games that sell well.  If Nintendo wants to be #1, they have to find the right balance.

You need to keep in mind Nintendo already made the investment to have these games made in the first place, and then ONLY released them in Japan where I guess they more or less flopped. I don't know how well they would do outside of Japan, but putting them in more markets mean more sales. Is that enough to offset the investment they placed in making them in the first place? I don't know, but it would put them at least closer to the black.

The only thing these games have to do in order to be worth the trouble is sell enough to recoup the localization costs. Considering how many people in this thread alone have said they would buy the game on release date I think that is doable. I'm not expecting them to sell a million copies, but I'm sure they could still sell enough to be worth the trouble.

[Adrock]

That's not true. Games have to turn a profit to be worth the trouble. Have to. Otherwise, they failed as products in a competitive marketplace. This isn't art for art's sake. We don't live in that kind of idealized world. If Nintendo doesn't believe a particular game is going to turn a profit which includes recouping the collective cost of bringing a game over as a start, then they're not bringing a game over. It's that easy. I don't understand how you don't get that. Nintendo isn't just being mean to people like yourself. They're not withholding games just to **** with anyone; they have a responsibility to the company that employs them. You might disagree, but these people do this for a living. They're employed because they're better at making these decisions than fans are. If they don't do their jobs well, they could all be handed pink slips. That might not be a major issue for someone like Reggie who makes as much as he does (whatever that is, probably 6-7 figures), but a lot of people work for him. He's responsible for them. So, sometimes that involves doing something unpopular with a segment of their fanbase who dig niche games. Ultimately, the world doesn't stop for anyone and Nintendo knows that. Vote with your dollars. Empty threats (like those who claimed they would boycott Skyward Sword then subsequently did not) won't change anything. I was particularly upset about Mother 3 not coming to NA yet I still probably gave Nintendo more money in the last 6 years than I ever have before. We're all to blame. We buy the big games; we don't buy the niche games. We're telling Nintendo what we want. And that's what we get. I hope Xenoblade and The Last Story do well because that sends a message. I bought Xenoblade. I did my part. I did not buy Xenosaga. I did not do my part and that series is dead, like so many others. The RPGs boom ended and that's why we almost didn't Xenoblade. This isn't rocket science. I'm simplifying it, but it's not much more complicated than I'm making it. Cause and effect.

[broodwars]

All I have to say is that if sales for Xenoblade and The Last Story don't convince Nintendo that console titles beyond the mass market are worth bringing to NA, than this is no longer a company I want to follow.  I certainly enjoy my Metroids, Zeldas, etc. but I also enjoy the more niche titles that NoA seems to have to be forced at gunpoint these days to bring over.  The fans and GameStop had to bribe Nintendo to finally bring Xenoblade over (despite NoE already paying for the localization costs), and who knows what hoops XSEED had to jump through to get The Last Story over here.  And both of those were AAA Nintendo-published titles in Japan, so if that's what it takes to get those titles these days the future doesn't look bright with Wii U in NA.

[Chozo Ghost]

That's not true. Games have to turn a profit to be worth the trouble. Have to.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I'll explain it again and hopefully this time you will understand. Nintendo ALREADY put in the investment for these games to be made, yet they ONLY released them in Japan. I'm going on the assumption they were unprofitable, or perhaps only broke even at best because sales were under 100k, but I don't know how much it cost them to make them or how much money they've made from the sales.

With that being said, my point is that even if Nintendo won't profit by bringing those games over here, they can at least CUT THEIR LOSSES and so even if they aren't able to make the games profitable, at least they can reduce the loss and that would still be worth the trouble.

Now do you see what I'm saying? The games are already done. Whether the investment was profitable or unprofitable, I don't really know, but Nintendo has only released these games in Japan so they didn't even have a fair chance to reach their full potential. Maybe in western markets their performance would have been better?

Once again let me say this: even if bringing these games over here doesn't make the entire investment profitable, as long as they would make enough money to overcome the localization costs it would still be worth Nintendo's trouble, because even if they don't make the entire investment profitable, they would still at least mitigate the losses. Do you see what I'm saying? As long as they sell well enough to make back the localization costs then its worth it. And I think that is VERY MUCH doable.

[Kairon]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I'll explain it again and hopefully this time you will understand. Nintendo ALREADY put in the investment for these games to be made, yet they ONLY released them in Japan.
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With that being said, my point is that even if Nintendo won't profit by bringing those games over here, they can at least CUT THEIR LOSSES and so even if they aren't able to make the games profitable, at least they can reduce the loss and that would still be worth the trouble.

That's not guaranteed. Nintendo could easily lose even MORE money by localizing certain things on other markets, and spending on distribution, time, effort, manpower, etc. That's even assuming they're not too busy with other things anyways. This is why the saying exists: "Throwing good money after bad", or, more academically, the "sunk cost fallacy."

I'm not saying I'm not disappointed in a Nintendo that isn't releasing either Disaster: Day of Crisis or Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy RupeeLand over here. I'm saying I can understand why they would make such a decision, respect their differing viewpoint on it just like I respect other people's differing opinions, and hope that someday in the future they change their mind and start giving me games like Face Training DS.

[Adrock]

No, I didn't miss your point. I got it, but Nintendo of America absolutely must turn a profit bringing the games over in order for NCL to "cut their losses." You say it's doable and maybe it is. Maybe. This is the important part: what if they don't? Then, they just lost money; more money than they originally lost. And that's where they're coming from. Nintendo of America didn't believe in a product to perform well in a market that typically ignores these types of games and has ignored these types of games for a number of years. They did exactly what a company should do. I don't know how Xenoblade performed in Japan, but if it underperformed in it's native market, where all of Nintendo expected the game to perform well, that's even less reason for Nintendo of America to bring the game over. If anything less than a profit is expected, no game.

[Kairon]

I'm not saying that NoA made the right choice. I'm just saying that even though I may disagree with them, I respect that the decision is ultimately theirs to make.