Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl  (Read 347187 times)

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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1325 on: February 09, 2007, 01:22:41 AM »
I actually hated the feature of Up being jump.  I have wished for awhile they would just take that out and leave it just a button press, so they can make it easier to plan and use up attacks...charging them and what not.


Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1326 on: February 09, 2007, 03:13:04 AM »
It is not hard to use upward attacks on the ground.  Jumping happens when you tap the stick up.  If you just want to attack, you tilt the stick.  You don't even have to tilt it all the way, thus avoiding the possibility that the game will register it as a tap.  If you can differentiate between smash attacks and non-smash attacks in the other directions, you can do the same for upward attacks.  If you can't differentiate, then I submit that you are broken, not the controls.  

Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1327 on: February 09, 2007, 04:00:40 AM »
PartyBear:  While I was writing that, I realized that I had very few problems with the system.  (I did on the Nintendo 64 game)

I just find it confusing to have two methods of jumping, and the button is such a better system for jumping, that I would perfer it.


Now another question to pose.

Since Online Gaming may be limited so that the experience is remains fast and responsive.  A question to ask is what is essential in your mind to the Smash Brothers Online Experience?  What must be included in the game, and what can be dropped for the sake of smooth online play?

For me this question breaks down to which is more important 4-Player matches or Items.

I think it would be more important to have 4-Player battles actually online and limited to no items in play (even severally limited items) than to give up that 4-Player craziness of Smash Brothers Multiplayer.

However, if 4 Players can not be done with correct responsive and smooth online play, then I think 2 player with all items is important.

What do you think?

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1328 on: February 09, 2007, 04:35:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
PartyBear:  While I was writing that, I realized that I had very few problems with the system.  (I did on the Nintendo 64 game)

I just find it confusing to have two methods of jumping, and the button is such a better system for jumping, that I would perfer it.

There's definitely a learning curve.  When I first played the original, for example, I had a heck of a time getting Link to pull out a bomb without jumping down through a platform.  I got it down pat with practice, but I can understand that some people haven't.  There are some things in Melee that I never mastered, but then again they're things that I don't think really should be in the game, like wave dashing (which I can kind of do, but not usefully) and SHFFLing (which I can't do).  If my best friend and primary opponent had learned to use those techniques in order to beat me, I think I could have mastered them myself, since that's what happened every other time he tried to get a leg up.

I never found a good place to test it in Melee, but in the original the two methods of jumping behaved differently.  You couldn't jump quite as high if you used a button, but you could jump further horizontally.  The difference was very slight, but I found that it was directly observable if you used Link on the Board the Platforms stage.  From the starting position, press a button to jump.  He won't quite make it to the platform above.  When he lands back where he started, tap straight up.  He'll just make it.  I've always assumed that the difference still exists in Melee, but I've never bothered to test it.  I found that place in the original by chance (and I hope I'm remembering it right).


Personally, I will only be satisfied if Brawl's online mode is indistinguishable from the offline mode.  I don't know or care if that's impossible.  I don't think I can decide which features I'd be willing to sacrifice.

Offline decoyman

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1329 on: February 09, 2007, 05:15:56 AM »
I really like the idea of using a Mii as a playable character. (Of course, I fully supported including your animal crossing character before we knew about Miis, but using a Mii would accomplish the same goal better.*) They could even use Wii Sports equipment for their special attacks – for a powerful uppercut (UP+Smash), the mii could temporarily don boxing gloves. For smash attacks, he/she could whip out a tennis racket, golf club, or bat and just whale away. The mii's "projectile" attack could be to hit baseballs or roll bowling balls.

I haven't played Wii Play yet (next week booyah), but maybe some references can be pulled from there as well.

As for online... It's a GIVEN that this game needs to be online. It's basically begging for it. In what capacity? Well, I think a 2-player duel option is the bare minimum. Anything less, and I will be THOROUGHLY disappointed. Ideally, however, 4-player, with items (maybe excluding Pokeballs, if they cause too much to happen at once).

* Though, I still dream about whupping Bowser, Pichu or Jigglypuff with KK Slider.

P.S. – Up for jump should stay, as well as a button if possible. I haven't ever had trouble jumping instead of pulling off UP smash attacks, and I use both jump options, depending on the situation and what other buttons I'm hitting at the time.  
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Offline Smoke39

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1330 on: February 09, 2007, 11:36:21 AM »
I think it'd be nice if they made up being jump optional, though Nintendo doesn't seem to like to provide configurable control options like that.  The targetting method in the 3D Zelda games is the only thing I can think of.
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1331 on: February 09, 2007, 01:58:43 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
The remote plus attachment has plenty of buttons; Smash Bros only needs an attack, special attack, jump and shield button. Throws could be done the combination way.


Up is jump, so you don't really need another button for that. I'm sure a number of people would complain, but it seems the most logical mapping of the controls to the Remote/Nunchuk to leave jump to just Up.


You mean except for the part where the majority of people who play SSB use the buttons to jump because it's massively easier and more convenient?

My friends and I can't even play single button melee because we need to use up to jump, and it's completely gimped.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1332 on: February 11, 2007, 03:30:25 AM »
I hate using up to jump. I've ALWAYS used the buttons.

Also, I wouldn't mind online play with only 1v1 for two reasons:

1. Tournaments are always done in 1v1 duels anyway so online tournaments would be a ready possibility.

2. It forces them to actually balance the characters so we don't have 3 characters who are always the tournament winners and the other 37 are not an option if you actually want to, you know, win.

I know people will be quick to argue that tiers don't matter because they only affect tournament play or some other such garbage, but once online enters the picture, EVERYONE will have a chance to be in tournaments so the characters NEED to be balanced, certainly more so than SSBM was.
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1333 on: February 11, 2007, 06:09:45 AM »
Again with you and this three character thing. The 2nd best recognized player in the world (BombSoldier) does not use any of the "Golden 3" (Marth, Fox, Shiek) as his mainstay. Rather, he uses Falco. His matches vs. #1 (Ken, Marth user) are GREAT! I've seen this dude do things with Falco I didn't even think were humanly possible! Characters who are more than capable of winning tournaments include, but are not limited to, Peach, Captain Falcon, Mario, Dr. Mario, Pikachu (I've already witnessed this done so don't bring me crap about it not being done, you just suck), Falco, Shiek, Marth, ganondorf. waht characters haven't had their full or near full potential unlocked is yet to be seen, but the fact that some haven't speaks volumes to the balance that already exists in Melee.

I want Brawl like a drug. I bought my Wii on the promise of Brawl. Melee made me buy a Cube and I counted down the minutes waiting for it (Desktop timer and it was set into my watch at the time). Smash is lifeblood for me. I've attended many a tournament so don't give me this "Only three characters" BS. You go to some tournament play (I recommend some events from SmashWorld Forums, great people there...here's to you darkrain if you're reading this!) and see what you apparently have not seen just yet.

Oh, a very sweet Bombsoldier video to cap it off for those who haven't seen him in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOKyMf_sa7U
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Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
The greatest game of all time is Super Smash Bros Brawl.  It

Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1334 on: February 11, 2007, 06:23:22 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UniversalJuan
Again with you and this three character thing. The 2nd best recognized player in the world (BombSoldier) does not use any of the "Golden 3" (Marth, Fox, Shiek) as his mainstay. Rather, he uses Falco.


The new tier list has Fox and Falco at the top. ...the fact that the list is constantly revised though at least is proof enough that the game isn't exactly "broken" when it comes to balance as I have seen some try to state. My problem with Melee was always much less in terms of the top tiered characters too, but more problems with the lower ones like Kirby, Mewtwo and especially Bowser.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1335 on: February 11, 2007, 06:54:21 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok The new tier list has Fox and Falco at the top.


Arbok beat me to it.

On occasion, the top tier and second tier get shuffled around a bit, but it's always been the same four or five out of 25 characters.

Quote

Originally posted by: UniversalJuan
Again with you and this three character thing. The 2nd best recognized player in the world (BombSoldier) does not use any of the "Golden 3" (Marth, Fox, Shiek) as his mainstay. Rather, he uses Falco. His matches vs. #1 (Ken, Marth user) are GREAT! I've seen this dude do things with Falco I didn't even think were humanly possible! Characters who are more than capable of winning tournaments include, but are not limited to, Peach, Captain Falcon, Mario, Dr. Mario, Pikachu (I've already witnessed this done so don't bring me crap about it not being done, you just suck), Falco, Shiek, Marth, ganondorf. waht characters haven't had their full or near full potential unlocked is yet to be seen, but the fact that some haven't speaks volumes to the balance that already exists in Melee.


Sorry, but no.

If the characters in this game were TRULY balanced, then we would constantly be seeing an upset regarding these tiers, but they've stayed pretty much the same when it comes to who is considered top.

If this game was indeed balanced, then Ken himself would be able to keep reclaiming the title of #1 every year with a different character, or someone would bring a previously low tier character up into the finals of the game over tourneys.

But the fact remains: this does not happen. You can flap your gums about anecdotal evidence all you want and it doesn't change the fact that, statistically, SOMEONE would have brought every character to the top at least once if it was truly possible to do so.

It's not, and all I truly want from Brawl is for the general rule of "speed=king" to no longer apply (Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek are at the top because of their speed, basically having the lowest amount of downtime between moves).

Quote

My problem with Melee was always much less in terms of the top tiered characters too, but more problems with the lower ones like Kirby, Mewtwo and especially Bowser.


My thoughts EXACTLY. I love Bowser's character but playing as him equates handicapping myself because he's just so damn slow. I thought the whole point of SSB is to play as the Nintendo characters you love and win with them, not play as whichever character has the biggest edge over all of the others.

Hence why I want Brawl to be balanced more than anything else and also why I was ecstatic to hear the quote from Sakurai about balance: "We will create this game with balance in mind."  
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Offline Adrock

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1336 on: February 11, 2007, 10:24:00 AM »
Oh, the Smash Bros. is balanced/unbalanced debate. I've stated my piece before so I'm not touching this one with a 37 foot pole. 37?! My girlfriend sucked 37 dic.......

I will say this though, based on the trailers (which, admittedly, isn't much to go on anyway), Metaknight is awful fast and appears to have an amazing jump. I wonder how they're going to even that out.

Anyway, I hope the stages are to scale. It's not a major problem; I wouldn't even classify it as a "problem." I'd just like to see the characters to scale with the background.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1337 on: February 11, 2007, 11:11:05 AM »
When someone beats Ken and BombSoldier with Bowser, I'll happily admit I'm wrong on the subject. Until then, my opinion is set in stone.

I actually wonder if Nintendo won't introduce "balance" patches to the game.

You have to consider there are actually 2 versions of SSBM out there: 1.0 and 1.1 in which they modified how Bowser's fire breath works so the idea of balancing post release isn't too far fetched.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1338 on: February 12, 2007, 07:26:22 AM »
I hope they don't upgrade the game.  I don't want to have to worry about patches with the game.  Its something I find annoying about PC games, and I don't want to creeping into my console systems.

As for the tier thing...why don't we stop speculating about Brawl until it comes out.  We have no idea how the designers are handling the heavy hitters yet, because not a single heavy hitter has been shown.  For the most part the balance between middle weight and light weight players is pretty solid (not perfect, but pretty good.)  

I am sure the designers are working hard to bring new ideas to the heavy weight characters to beef up their balance.  Probably both defensively and offensively.  

It just seems pointless to complain during periods of speculation.  And Melee is already out, and nothing can be done about that game...so it is also pointless to complain about that.  


Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1339 on: February 12, 2007, 07:49:36 AM »
I'm not speculating: I'm only going on what we know so far:

1. The game is slower than SSBM. We wouldn't have the mountains of b*tching from the SSB community about the game being slowed down otherwise.

2. Sakurai said he wanted the game to be balanced.

All the rest is up in the air.

With Brawl being slower, I already got half of what I wanted. I hoped that Brawl will be slower than Melee and actually balanced. Sakurai has already made good on one of those promises, but we'll have to wait and see on the other.

As for updates, yeah, I'm not fond of the game being updated post-release either, but quite frankly, if the choice is between accepting online updates or having a broken character who either sucks or rules, I'll take the former.
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Offline Adrock

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1340 on: February 12, 2007, 09:51:25 AM »
I always figured all the harping about Brawl being slowed down was based on hearsay. I watched the trailers again and they game doesn't appear any slower than Melee. Granted, they were just trailers and most likely not representative of final gameplay.

Does anyone have a link?

And seriously, what does "slowed down" even mean? It's an awfully cryptic statement. What does it refer to exactly? I think we'll have our answer at GDC.

And no to patches. Not every Wii is connected to the internet. Patches would create all sorts of problems.

Offline Ceric

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1341 on: February 12, 2007, 10:09:30 AM »
I say no to patches.  They have no place on a game developed for that console.
The only reason I tolerate them on the PC is because the PC is always in flux.
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1342 on: February 12, 2007, 10:11:46 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Adrock


And no to patches. Not every Wii is connected to the internet. Patches would create all sorts of problems.


What kind of problems? The only problem I could see from patches would be issues if two people were playing each other online and one had the patch and the other didn't, that could easily be resolved by the server allowing(letting the non-patcher access or at least see what the patcher has) or disallowing the patched content. The only problem with that theory is that both Wii systems would be connected to the internet, and the patches are likely to be dirt cheap if not free.
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Offline Adrock

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1343 on: February 12, 2007, 10:22:54 AM »
Online matches shouldn't be a problem because if you're playing online, you'll probably have the patches. But if I go to my friend's house and he's not connected, I could be using an unpatched Link or Peach. That creates 2 or more kinds of players due to different patches. Imagine that at tournaments.

I just don't like the idea of patches. I'd rather a game company get it right the first time. Melee might not have been perfect, but I think it's still highly playable 5 years later. If Brawl can be that replayable, I don't think there wuld be any need for patches even if Fox is still ridiculous.

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1344 on: February 12, 2007, 10:26:43 AM »
I can deal with patches, as long as they actually are doing something and not changing the game, and not to many. Out of any Nintendo game though, I think Super Smash Brothers comes out almost perfect, and it seems that the BETA of the game is always played through thick and thin. The only real reason I can see Nintendo really needing a patch with this game, is if tournment play isn't added or implented the way they wanted to, and it grew into being a huge thing. I don't really see Nintendo changing or adding content, maybe a level or two - but we all know thats a BIG iffy Maybe -, but just to add things like highscores for some single player mode or something dealing with tournments and how things are setup online.

All in all, if there is a patch, I think it will only deal with things dealing with the online portion of the game, and if you don't have an internet connection for your Wii, it shouldn't be a problem
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Offline MaryJane

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1345 on: February 12, 2007, 11:01:12 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Adrock
Online matches shouldn't be a problem because if you're playing online, you'll probably have the patches. But if I go to my friend's house and he's not connected, I could be using an unpatched Link or Peach. That creates 2 or more kinds of players due to different patches. Imagine that at tournaments.

I just don't like the idea of patches. I'd rather a game company get it right the first time. Melee might not have been perfect, but I think it's still highly playable 5 years later. If Brawl can be that replayable, I don't think there wuld be any need for patches even if Fox is still ridiculous.


but how would this happen? can you bring a character from one game to another? I see no reason for being able to carry them in your remote like a wii remote because their stats (in attack, defense, etc.) don't differ just because you've played more with them in your game. If there was any purpose to carrying the character it would be in preperation of knowing that you're friend didn't have the patch, and you wanted to use a patched character, if that was the case (if even possible) the would program a way into the game to allow the partial code of the patched character to play on a non-patched game. They probably wouldn't allow that, they want people to go online so being able to benefit in any way to a patch you didn't actually download is potential money lost.

I wonder how many different ways there are to mix patch into words, I used a lot in these last two post LMAO!! Flying High Again by Ozzy Osbourne (or was it Black Sabbath?) is a good song.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1346 on: February 12, 2007, 11:15:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Adrock
I always figured all the harping about Brawl being slowed down was based on hearsay. I watched the trailers again and they game doesn't appear any slower than Melee. Granted, they were just trailers and most likely not representative of final gameplay.

Does anyone have a link?

And seriously, what does "slowed down" even mean? It's an awfully cryptic statement. What does it refer to exactly? I think we'll have our answer at GDC.


Allow me to elaborate on this as I've done some extensive research on the subject (also, I owe an explanation on it anyway).

The reason why the new SSB is likely to be significantly slower than Melee, according to the SSB community, is due to the "freeze frame" effect having a far longer duration than it did in SSBM.

What do I mean by that? When one player strikes another player with any attack which will cause said player to be knocked back or even just grimace without traveling far, the "freeze frame" refers to the amount of time the character who has been struck spends recoiling, sort of "frozen" for a moment as the hit is registered.

In SSBM, there are little to no freeze frames. However, such was not the case with SSB64 which gave an ample amount of time after being struck. The end result, with longer freeze frame, is that the overall fight will move slower as each hit takes longer to finish for both the attacker and the victim. This gives all players involved, those with insane reflexes and those without, more time to react to the events transpiring in the game.

As I said, this wasn't the case in SSBM, and as a result, the four fastest characters in the game, Fox, Marth, Falco and Shiek, hold the top tier due to their speed as it gives them an incredible edge. This is contrasted in SSB64 where Ness and Kirby were regarded as top tier, even ahead of faster characters like Fox and Falcon.

IMHO, freeze frames are the difference between SSB being a game which is "easy to learn but a challenge to master" and "non-reflex oriented gamers don't have a goddamn prayer against someone who has that reflex". I'm 100% in favor of more freeze framing: it gives all players more time to react, and in the end, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. SSB shouldn't be the type of game where it requires lightning quick reflexes to be the best because, in SSB64, players without such reflexes could routinely win games by simply being better at predicting their opponent's moves in advance and moving to counter them.

As such, the game had an immense amount of depth as it was, the kind which earned me and my friends 700 hours of play time logged on the cart, but the point is, there's no need for reflex to be the dominant skill involved in SSB: it's a good enough game that it can get by JUST fine without it and by not allowing reflex to dominate the game, it makes the experience vastly more accessible to a plethora of other less-hardcore players who would otherwise not be able to compete.

I always saw SSB as a big send-up to traditional fighting games, replete with cheesy fighter intro and everything. Rather than taking the approach of making controlling your character as hard as possible via memorized moves and combos with ridiculous input patterns, HAL made the game as easy and intuitive to play as they possibly could. SSB was EVERYTHING games like Street Fighter and other hardcore-oriented fighting games were NOT, and that included the gameplay being more paced and strategic in lieu of the emphasis being on speed (I believe it's Street Fighter's faster characters which ALSO occupy the top tiers of the roster, coincidentally).

But that's just my opinion on the subject. I understand that some people prefer reflex over strategy and reading your opponent in a fighting game, but I personally say keep reflex-dependent gameplay in Wario Ware and out of my SSBB.
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Offline Adrock

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1347 on: February 12, 2007, 03:24:25 PM »
Quote

MaryJane wrote:
but how would this happen? can you bring a character from one game to another? I see no reason for being able to carry them in your remote like a wii remote because their stats (in attack, defense, etc.) don't differ just because you've played more with them in your game.

I'm a bit confused over what you mean by "carring a character over." I guess I was unclear so allow me to rephrase. If I have the patch, I learn to use a patched Link or Peach. When I go to my friend's house (who doesn't have the patch because he's not connected), I'm at a disadvantage because I'm trying to play as the unpatched Link or Peach. Essentially, that creates 2 different characters. I see that as a problem.

Some people just won't have the patches. Not everyone has high-speed internet (losers....) so you'll end up with some people learning the patched characters and some who don't. How can you have a tournament that way? How do you choose which "version" to use?

Quote

Smash_Brother wrote:
The reason why the new SSB is likely to be significantly slower than Melee, according to the SSB community, is due to the "freeze frame" effect having a far longer duration than it did in SSBM.

Ohhhh.... that. Ok, I get it. That's why Marth is such a bastard....

Still, I see that as a balance issue rather than making the game "significantly slower." When someone says "slowing the game down," that could mean anything. The characters jump and run really, really slow in the original. That's very different than Fox rocking my world with this ungodliness.......

Anyway, the game needs bosses. I hate Master Hand. He's just stupid. Of course, with bosses you could have a real story mode... but that's hardly an original idea.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1348 on: February 12, 2007, 04:32:34 PM »
Honestly, I think Brawl would be perfect if it has 75% of the speed of Melee. In my mind, that would be spot-on.

But yeah, Fox and Marth are absolutely insane, even more so in the right hands. I'm the only one in my circle who has the raw gamer reflex and, as a result, if we're playing SSBM and I feel like winning a game, I use Fox: never lose, I just mop the floor with everyone because he just moves so much faster than the other characters, and I don't consider myself even a part way decent Fox player.

That alone isn't evidence of tiers (we have Ken and tournaments for that), but when I see such a colossal difference in results when I play against the same people with the same characters with Bowser (my main) then Fox, I truly hope Brawl doesn't have the same imbalances Melee suffered.  
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #1349 on: February 20, 2007, 09:34:05 AM »
Something was just discussed over at the Smashboards which I found interesting...

What if Brawl had 8 player support? With 4 classic controllers and 4 GCN controllers, it IS technically possible, and I say stages like the Zelda Temple were more than big enough for 8 players.

Also, if you don't like it, don't play it that way. I for one love the idea because, if I ever play SSB, it's only when there are 5+ people around to play and passing the controllers grows tiresome, especially because it forces people to sit out when they could be playing with everyone else.

God knows, the Wii should be plenty powerful enough to handle 8 on the screen without issue, particle effects and all.

I wonder if it's something they'll consider for inclusion...
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64