Topic: No wonder M titles aren't selling

[BlackGriffen]

:clap::clap::clap:

Great post, Darc! I couldn't have said it better, myself. Perhaps Nintendo should start doing "general gamecube ads" that feature one exclusive plus two other games (exclusive or not). I think doing something like that (start before halloween, say second week Oct) would be really helpful. I would especially try to highlight games that are only available on 2 of the three consoles, and the 'must haves' (like EA sports titles). Perhaps with a tag line like, "and there's only one console where you can find every one of these three games, Nintendo Gamcube." Granted, it's a little bit misleading because it could leave the impression that they're all exclusives, but since you're technically talking about the games as a group, the only console that has that group of games is GC, so it wouldn't be lying.

BlackGriffen

[MickeyD]

It's obvious Nintendo makes alot of money. It's also obvious that in a straight out money war on ads mircosoft and sony would kick their butts. But hell they could stand to blow some of that money for the return they will make. They need to help third parties advertise games and advertise their games better. Like for one no more terrible mario sunshine commericials or ridiculous times of the day like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness. They really need to push advertising and make incentives for third parties to advertise more. The reason most developers don't advertise more for cube is they spend so much as it is on making the game as it is and some can hardly afford to make a commerical as it. So Sony and Mircosoft step in and give them money for commericals resulting in more sales for them. And nintendo never does that the and thats why the gamecube logo is off in the corner. We as fans need to write into nintendo and let them know what garbage this is.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Remeber those glass cube commercials that even showed some 3rd party games up int he glass cube line up. Nintendo could possibly bring those up again. At least they are better than the  * insert xbox voice plot here* is nothing greater than the power of X

[Ninja X]

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Originally posted by: Strell

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck

I would go as far as to say the Cube port was a "lets hope we break even on this project" because the developer is already sure it wont sell. This might seem like a bad way for a developer to look at things, but be honest, can you really blame them.
Look at RE for an example, it is a great game and didnt sell worth beans. Why, because to many cube owners wont touch anything that isnt made by Nintendo becase they assume it will be inferior.

Nintendo drove away fans with the N64, which drove away developers. Now witht he cube they again use a different format of disk, which again will cost a few supporters, which in turn will again mean less support.

So it is on topic after all.

You're wrong because:

1. RE is, unfortunately, really showing its age.  Same control the ENTIRE TIME, not even attempting to make use of analog sticks and better schemes.  That's just uncalled for.  The game is gorgeous, but it's a sad state of affairs that there has been no innovation in the series at all.  Silent Hill, at least, adds a brooding aura to the genre.  RE just rehashes what it already has.  More Capcom's fault than anyone else's.  9 times out of 10, if a game is good, it will sell.  Hopefully RE4 will have some innovation and better control schemes.  I personally don't mind it, but people act like it's reason enough to dislike a game.

2. If developers are sure a game won't sell, and they put out 10K copies, and then they whine because "OH BOOHOO WE ONLY SOLD 10K COPIES," how is that Nintendo's fault?  It's not.  Good circular logic, though.  Why not advertise the game to Gamecube?  SC comes out and all I see are commercials for PS2.  I don't see any GC commercials.  Wth.  Nintendo doesn't handle other companies' games, people.

3. 30 million N64's does not equal driving away fans.  Did some go to Sony?  Of course.  But you act like Nintendo labeled their console as "Hitler approved!" on it or something.

4. Reason for new disk = no piracy.  Let's compare how many millions Sony and Microsoft lose per year versus Nintendo in terms of pirating.  WAIT, I BELEIVE...YES, I AM SURE IT IS MILLIONS TO ZERO.

So RE sold poorly due to its game mechanics?  What about Devil May Cry 2 for the PS2?  That had the same mechanics, just like the RE remake.  Look how wildly that is selling.
Yes, RE would have sold wildly, but not many people bought it for many reasons, most of them directly relating to GCN and Nintendo.
Many people don't buy third-party games for the GCN because most people who buy GCN buy the Nintendo games.  That's GCN's only real strong point.  That's why I bought a GCN and I'm betting most of you bought a GCN just for that.

 

[Darc Requiem]

Sorry MickeyD but I disagree. Nintendo shouldn't have to fund the ad campaigns of third party titles. The only money Nintendo makes off of third party titles is the licensing fee. A third party developer makes a lot more money off of each of there titles than Nintendo would. Its to there benefit to advertise their own games. If the games cost them a million to make and they only sell 100 copies and they have lost a ton of money but Nintendo would have gained about $900 to $1000 dollars. In other words Nintendo, Sony, or MS gains money off of each title sold whether the game bombs or not. So its not to their advantage to pay for ads when they get paid regardless. If third parties are willing spend millions of dollars advertising their PS2 and X-box games why should Nintendo pay for their ad costs? All they would have to do is mention the GC in the ad. Take the new Splinter Cell commercial, they dont' mention the GC at all. They just have the logo at the end. All they would have to say is "Splinter Cell has been redefined for your PS2 and Gamecube" during that same commerical and have few text quotes of the GC reviews of the game i.e. Gamespy gives Splinter Cell for GC a 93 out of a 100 or IGNCube gives it 9.1 out of 10. They may have to pay for a few more seconds of ad time but just stating that would cause the millions of casual GC owners to be aware of the game. Not that all GC owners will buy game but everyone that wants the game would know its on store shelves and surely the increase sales would more than make up for the extra 3 seconds it would take to say "and Gamecube."

Darc Requiem

[Armed]

Yeah, what he said right above me, hehehe.
 

[MickeyD]

But Darc don't you get it,to most third parties just putting the stupid logo off to the corner is enough for them. I guess they figure its more important to advertise Playstation 2 and Xbox then Gamecube since they are consider it to be more popular. But really when you think about it thats retarded logic any business knows if one sector of your business isn't selling well you put more money into to correct it and less in your more successful ventures to alleviate the cost and balance things out. So why not l put more money into for ads for gamecube to correct this problem. I mean really at this point any high profile game coming to ps2 probably doesn't need near as much advertising as a gamecube title since more people have ps2. You would also think since they realize that most people buy gamecube for just nintendo games that would be more incentive to make there games more well know on gamecube with the stiff competition of first party games nintendo has. You may be right nintendo shouldn't have to pay them to advertise more but they shouldn't just sit on their hands. At the very least if they broker a deal to have a exclusive third party game they should at least pay some money to advertise it. Look how much mircosoft paid for splinter cell and it was only had a short exclustivity period. It sold better then Metroid Prime. Every time I saw an xbox commerical it was all about splinter cell and they did the same thing with DOA extreme beach volley ball. I'm not stupid I know nintendo could never afford to win in an advertsing war with the likes of sony and mircosoft but dammit it's time they start being a little more agressive and stop taking it like a prison bitch.  

[VideoGamerX]

Are we all forgetting that the Resident Evil remake is a million seller (1,117,470 copies sold)?

--------
And just for some proof that the Resident Evil series is losing its touch...

Code Veronica sales on the PS2 (March 23, 2003): 1,009,571

Ooh... ouch. Outsold by a Gamecube remake of the original.

Resident Evil Zero for the Gamecube has sold 618,000 copies. I don't think that's all that bad. It should sell close to a million when all is said and done. The lesson to be learned here is that hype and advertisement goes the distance. Resident Evil for Gamecube was anticipated. I went to Best Buy (of all places to go for a video game....) and picked up my copy two days after release. They had plenty of copies available. It was no hassle at all.

This is an example of how a company can do well on  the Gamecube. Advertise, produce, and do a decent job and it'll sell. That's all Nintendo owners ask for. We don't get that, though. We only get excuses from third parties.

By the way, here's some more world-wide sales figures of Resident Evil sales:
Resident Evil (including Director's cut) PS1 - 3,445,585
Resident Evil 2 PS1 - 3,441,745 (Japanese Biohazard boom, reduced sales in America)
Resident Evil 2 N64 - 334,870 (Who says there's been no improvement since N64?)
Resident Evil 3 Nemesis - 2,379,817 (Obviously there was a decrease in interest... in Japan)

I might also add that before Director's cut, RE wasn't doing so hot in America. I don't know why that is. Perhaps Resident Evil 2 created a craze or maybe the PS1 hadn't picked up sales until after Director's cut released. Whatever the cause, I think it should be noted that Resident Evil has once again sold over a million copies world-wide on the Nintendo Gamecube. Not bad for remake, rehash of a game nearly everyone has played before.

Quite honestly, Japan is more of a reason for a lack of sales. The Japanese market has had its feel of Resident Evil. Each incarnation does worse and worse. Code Veronica sold 337,761 copies in Japan. It sold nearly double in America. This is PS2's big massive flaming userbase we're talking about. Anyone who wants to point out poor sales would be blind not to use this as a perfect example. How many people worldwide own a Playstation 2? How many bought Code Veronia. Man, I bet they produced at least two million copies of Code Veronia in anticipation of PS2 sales of their game. It barely cracked a million. There's probably 40 times the users compared to what that sold.

I suppose all of PS2's games sell very spectacularly well. I, on the other hand, think that's terrible for the amount of advertisement resources they pour into it. Not to mention the shelf space they give their titles. The little blinking neon Playstation 2 sign I have to look at while entering the electronics section.

If I were Capcom, I'd be shifting my support elsewhere, too...

Come to think of it, did any of you see a Code Veronia commercial? I don't recall it if I did... perhaps there's a connection.    

[Zelda]

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Code Veronica sales on the PS2 (March 23, 2003): 1,009,571

Ooh... ouch. Outsold by a Gamecube remake of the original.

um, the gamecube RE is a REMAKE. Code Veronica on the PS2 is just a PORT of the Dreamcast version.

[VideoGamerX]

You're not reasoning with a couple of KEY details. One, it's a port from a system that's nearly equal (maybe even superior) to the PS2's graphics capabilities. Two, the Dreamcast had a very limited userbase. This WAS, for all intents and purposes, a BRAND NEW GAME to a market that hadn't had Resident Evil for a while.

Allow me to repeat myself.

Ooh... Ouch. Outsold by a Gamecube remake of the original.



If you don't believe me: Resident Evil Code: Veronica X review

Even though it sold quite well on Dreamcast (considering), those sales are still pretty low. The Playstation 2 port was changed. I would think it could have sold better than that.

[Zelda]

Resident Evil: Remake on Gamecube is much more a new game than Code Veronica on PS2 is. Code Veronica sold fairly well on Dreamcast in the US, too.
Just because it was on a less popular console before and doesn't sell that well it doesn't make it a new game. Look at Skies of Arcadia: Legends. It's not a new game.

[cyrus420]

can someone summerize all of that crap into a nice 3-5 sentence paragraph please? it looks really interesting, but i dont wanna read that much, if i did i'd go read a book. 15 lines or less please, make it attractive to us regular people.

[Strell]

Ninja I'm too lazy to edit a quote message, so I'll just respond.

DMC2 and RE are completely different styles of gameplay.  Completely.  DMC was fresh and new in it's introduction, and the success from it is carrying the sales of DMC2 by name alone.  

RE0 is, what, the sixth RE game?  RE1, RE2, RE3(Nem), RECV, RE1(Remake)?  That's not including the Director's Cut of RE1, or the RE:Gun Survivor game.

Capcom, unfortunately, is really known for milking franchises.  With 56 different incantations of Street Fighter, 406 Megaman Titles, ports of SEVERAL games, a third Onimusha ALREADY, and already a sequal to Maximo, they are the absolute kings of repackaging.

So when a game that is essentially like all it's kindred ancestors, only with the introduction of a buddy system, shows up and it STILL has pretty horrible gameplay, and you compare it to a game that is fresh and new, you wonder why the new one (assuming it's done well, which DMC was) is outselling it?

Yes, DMC2 is horrible compared to DMC (at least from what I know, because I haven't had a chance to play them yet), but you're arguing apples to oranges and calling them both banana ice cream.  

I'm not going to deny that Nintendo's advertising sucks, and that they really need to get off their high horses and lazy arses.  I guess it's hard to be motivated to give a crap about third parties when your own games sell really well.  What's the saying?  Laughing all the way to the bank?

[RahXephon]

i have played about 30 megamans, and they can jjust keep on coming, i love that blue guy.  ROCKMAN.EXE is awsome.

cyrus420, books are good for yuo and prevent senility.  You should read one.

On Topic-the major reason i think nintendo should advertise more- LOTS OF KIDS OWN CUBES, THEY DONT KNNOW WHAT IS GOOD SP THEY WATCH COMERCIALS, AS WELL AS THE PARENTS.  THEY SEE A GAME THA LOOKS "COOL" AND SAY I SHOULD BUY THAT, BUT IT ISN"T ON GC.  GO TO STORE, SEE LOTS OF MICKEY GAMES ON SHELVES, THEY MUST BE GOOD.  OH THE HUMANITY, THE GAME IS NOT GOOD.  WAIT, WHAT IS THIS, A ZELDA COMMERCIAL.  GO TO STORE AND SEE LOTS OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT AND LOTS OF SIGNS.  WOW THIS WOULS BE GOOD TO GET I BET.  WOW IT IS GOOD.  ADVERTISING CAN SHOW GOOD GAMES.  LOOK AT ALL THE PS2 ADVERTISING.  I SHOULD BUY PS@ BECAUSE MORE COMMERCIALS.

---exit mind of semi-casual gamer-----

[thecubedcanuck]

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God, why is it that whenever I see you talking about the GC you always have something bad to say? Do you secretly dislike it or something? Does one of your family members own one so you just happen to have in your house?! Because from what I've seen (and these are from the last THREE posts coming from you) you have no love or respect for it. We get it, PS2 is cool. I have a PS2. But continually bagging on Nintendo is simply bad form, man.

Lol, you should read a little more. I have 3 systems, in order of use at the moment, Cube, box, ps2.

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you have no love or respect for it

that is correct, I try not to love or respect electronic components as it is usually a pointless venture.

its a games console to me, nothing more.

[Mario]

Um... whats all this crap talk about Devil May Cry 2 outselling Resident Evil? Didn't Devil May Cry 2 bomb? Even Devil May Cry didnt do that good if i recall?

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Perhaps Nintendo should start doing "general gamecube ads" that feature one exclusive plus two other games (exclusive or not). I think doing something like that (start before halloween, say second week Oct) would be really helpful. I would especially try to highlight games that are only available on 2 of the three consoles, and the 'must haves' (like EA sports titles). Perhaps with a tag line like, "and there's only one console where you can find every one of these three games, Nintendo Gamcube." Granted, it's a little bit misleading because it could leave the impression that they're all exclusives, but since you're technically talking about the games as a group, the only console that has that group of games is GC, so it wouldn't be lying.

WOW! Thats a great idea, someone send this to Nintendo! Oh yeah, and to all those "M titles dont sell on cube coz cube is kiddy" people, im gonna be LMAO when RE4 breaks a million in its first month. And also, i think some of you are forgeting about a little game called Metroid Prime

[BlackGriffen]

To those hesitant to have Nintendo "advertise for third parties:"

Think of it this way, Nintendo needs to advertise the GC (whether you feel the image needs a change, or if they just need to boost system sales). How does one advertise a console? At the beginning of the lifetime, you can do it on hype and performance promises. Now, and somewhat early in the system's life, the way to advertise a console is to say, "Look at the great games we have!" And not just the first party titles, either. By making Gamecube ads that contain exclusive titles and just general third party titles, Nintendo can leverage the money being spent to advertise for other consoles to draw attention to the Gamecube (and whatever other titles are in the ad).

Something I'd like to change about the original Cube commercials (the glass box ones) is that I don't recall hearing the title of the games. I remember seeing the title, and maybe hearing it if there was only one game, but I don't remember the name hitting my hear. The first thing Nintendo needs to do is get itself better brand awareness in its GC commercials. The PS2 has it's logo and sound, the XBox has a logo and speech snippet, hell, who here doesn't remember the constipated, "SEGA!"? I think something as simple as the end flourish to the GC boot up sequence (pic and all) would do. The one that PGC puts at the front of its videos, except the xylophone (is that the sfx they use?) at the beginning would only reinforce the kiddy stereotype and take too long. After all, a xylophone is a child's toy here in the U.S. Yes, the point of this paragraph is that you remember what you hear and see better than what you just hear or just see. Combine that with a powerful and simple mnemonic (I should add that it shouldn't be annoying) that you hit the customers with over and over again ("Now you're playing with power, super power!"), or some kind of simple audible theme that all the ads have, and you have a powerful advertising mechanism.

The scary thing is that I'm sure the ad execs at Nintendo already know this (I'm just a layman observer, after all), and I don't know why they aren't doing it. Is there a fad in the ad industry to lay off these time tested tactics for fear of annoying the consumer?

I also have to agree that they need to advertise the rated M games more. Maintaining a family friendly image is one thing, but not nearly as important as effective advertising.

BlackGriffen

Edit: spelling.

[Ian Sane]

"I think something as simple as the end flourish to the GC boot up sequence (pic and all) would do. The one that PGC puts at the front of its videos, except the xylophone (is that the sfx they use?) at the beginning would only reinforce the kiddy stereotype and take too long."

Have you ever watched the trailers on the Zelda bonus disc?  The logo flash at the beginning of each trailer is awesome and would be great for TV commercials.  In fact Nintendo's game trailers are usually so impressive they could probably just use them for commercials.  With titles like Metroid Prime and Wind Waker in-game footage is way more impressive than people in costumes taking up 80% of the ad.  If graphics sell why not show off the graphics?  Final Fantasy VII had probably the most effective commercial ever and all it showed was FMV footage from the game.

[NWR_Lindy]

Yeah, I've never understood Nintendo's commercials.  Most of the time they barely even show the game.  The Super Mario Sunshine commerical was idiotic, and the Metroid Prime commercial wasn't as cool as it should have been.  But then, we've been dealing with this issue since the Nintendo 64, and they've switched ad agencies since then.  It must be a conscious effort on the part of Nintendo to NOT have cool commercials.

silks

[Bloodworth]

The funny thing about Nintendo and commercials is that the trailers they give us at E3 are spectacular.  Last year's Zelda introduction was so well done it matched the level of excitement you'd get from a trailer for The Lord of the Rings or The Matrix, but the commercials for the general public didn't even come close.  

[The Doc]

First of all, I feel your pain guys. I am twenty-two and have a GameCube. I like GameCube becuase it has a nice selection of games in just about every genre out there, however some stores just do not carry great games like Red Faction 2 and Splinter Cell and I just do not get it. I thought I was the only one who was having this problem but I guess not.  Nintendo does have a lot of "M" rated games but it seems like some stores refuse to stock them, thus they won't sell. It seems to me that when a game is announced for all the next generation consoles it seems like the GameCube version gets the least attention, while the other consoles shine in the spotlight. In my opinion, Nintendo needs to take control of this situation and take control of it fast. GameCube is not a kiddy system, but how is Nintendo going to get that monkey off their back if stores do not stock these great GameCube titles?

The Doc

[VideoGamerX]

This is all beginning to make a lot of sense. The store on my school's campus just happens to have an electronics section with video game consoles (surprised me they would even carry video games) and you can guess which two brands they carry and which brand they don't. It's slowly getting under my skin and ticking me off. They support X-box and Playstation 2 outright. And this is a Gamecube friendly region (sometimes...), but, believe it or not, there are gamers all over the place who have not even heard of the Gamecube. Some of them that have, don't know anything about it...

I see Nintendo changing their approach to being competitive in this market, but I can't wait for them to unveil their new plans. I can't wait to start to see some real change under the new president. The person who said those trailers on the bonus disc were awesome is absolutely right. Those trailers, alone, would suffice for commercials. They would be effective! Just the intro makes me go "Whoa! What's that?! So cool..." and the footage hasn't even began. I wouldn't even have to know what the commercial was about. Just the logo introduction is enough to convince me.

The Xbox's logo introduction is like that.

Nintendo's commercials are certainly stupid. They've done a decent job with a few titles, but their Mario Sunshine commercial might have been better suited for the 70s or 80s. Even their old Zelda commercials are better than the Mario Sunshine commericals. *still has the Zelda rap in his head*

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: VideoGamerX
You're not reasoning with a couple of KEY details. One, it's a port from a system that's nearly equal (maybe even superior) to the PS2's graphics capabilities. Two, the Dreamcast had a very limited userbase. This WAS, for all intents and purposes, a BRAND NEW GAME to a market that hadn't had Resident Evil for a while.

Allow me to repeat myself.

Ooh... Ouch. Outsold by a Gamecube remake of the original.



If you don't believe me: Resident Evil Code: Veronica X review

Even though it sold quite well on Dreamcast (considering), those sales are still pretty low. The Playstation 2 port was changed. I would think it could have sold better than that.

You don't understand the difference between a REMAKE and a PORT.  Learn it.

Remakes cost money.  The RE remake for GCN cost mad money.  Those photorealistic graphics?  Capcom had, my guess, double the profit off Code Veronica than the RE remake for GCN.  Even though the RE remake outsold Code Veronica, not much profit was made, I think.  

Oh, and the PS2 port was not changed by much. A couple new cutscenes.  Wow.  And look at its immense sales.  If it could nearly tie a totally huge remake of a pioneering game in terms of copies sold, that is sad, my friend.

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Ninja I'm too lazy to edit a quote message, so I'll just respond.

DMC2 and RE are completely different styles of gameplay.  Completely.  DMC was fresh and new in it's introduction, and the success from it is carrying the sales of DMC2 by name alone.  

RE0 is, what, the sixth RE game?  RE1, RE2, RE3(Nem), RECV, RE1(Remake)?  That's not including the Director's Cut of RE1, or the RE:Gun Survivor game.

Capcom, unfortunately, is really known for milking franchises.  With 56 different incantations of Street Fighter, 406 Megaman Titles, ports of SEVERAL games, a third Onimusha ALREADY, and already a sequal to Maximo, they are the absolute kings of repackaging.

So when a game that is essentially like all it's kindred ancestors, only with the introduction of a buddy system, shows up and it STILL has pretty horrible gameplay, and you compare it to a game that is fresh and new, you wonder why the new one (assuming it's done well, which DMC was) is outselling it?

Yes, DMC2 is horrible compared to DMC (at least from what I know, because I haven't had a chance to play them yet), but you're arguing apples to oranges and calling them both banana ice cream.  

I'm not going to deny that Nintendo's advertising sucks, and that they really need to get off their high horses and lazy arses.  I guess it's hard to be motivated to give a crap about third parties when your own games sell really well.  What's the saying?  Laughing all the way to the bank?

Yes, I must admit DMC is rather fresh.  But then again, a RE: Code Veronica port for the PS2 has, according to VideoGamerX, sold over one million worldwide.  Pretty damn good.  
The series has gotten quite old, but I don't think it has shown its age with slow sales.  The series still gets good reviews and the RE remake are in the hands of one out of every six GCN owners.
If you want to talk milked series, look at Pokemon.  That series is just about as milked as RE and it is one of Japan's best selling games.  Not to mention American sales did nicely for all the games (maybe except for Snap)

[manunited4eva22]

the irony of that...DMC was what RE4 was going to be.