Topic: Official Sales Thread

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Third parties that support irrelevant portions of the market are irrelevant until further notice.

yeah.

[Kairon]

Should reach 50% by the end of the year.  Then hopefully third parties realize that the Wii is, in fact, the market leader and will adjust accordingly.

This will happen to some extent, but I do believe that the HD systems (PC-PS2-360) are still very viable as a separate userbase if the companies involved can exploit that audience. I definitely don't believe we'll see a repeat of PlayStation2 style market consolidation.

It's funny that third parties suddenly care what's "viable" when last generation they mostly cut support for consoles once they discovered that weren't selling well (GC, Xbox never got much in the way of exclusives.)  But anyway, you're already seeing this happen in Japan.  PS3 game announcements are drying up, and 360 games do very poorly there and most from Japan do poorly here, too.  Third parties have reached the point where developing for the HD consoles doesn't outweigh the potential of a hit Wii game in their repertoire, and the highest selling Wii games, aside from Wii Play, are the games with the most effort put into them.  So those resources are needed to please the much larger Wii market, and cannot be solely allocated to two consoles that will constitute less than half the total market.  The habit of giving the 360 and PS3 more resources simply because they require more will be over.

I hope that what you say is true, and that other markets follow Japan's lead. However, I really don't know if American companies, at least the large ones, will willingly follow suit. I can't help but fear that the animosity to the Wii you can find in some places will prevail, and I can't help but worry that the American penchant for "bigger, better, more explosions" will have a deathgrip on large swaths of the community. Europe I have far more faith in to fall under the Wii's sway, but America's impressive and relentless technological drive may put it on a path that doesn't always intersect with the Wii.

Actually, while I do count 50% marketshare as a meaningful milestone, I don't think that 30-40 million HD consoles, portrayed as a single platform due to the growing capabilities of engines and middleware, on which one can easily find a wide range of examples of 3-5 million unit sellers, is something to ignore. This is far from irrelevant, and I think will remain a significant alternative to the Wii majority, many magnitudes more than the alternative the N64 offered to the PSX.

[Bill Aurion]

I can't help but fear that the animosity to the Wii you can find in some places will prevail, and I can't help but worry that the American penchant for "bigger, better, more explosions" will have a deathgrip on large swaths of the community.

History has proven otherwise, and that's really all the evidence you need...

[Luigi Dude]

Third parties that support irrelevant portions of the market are irrelevant until further notice.

yeah.

This is pretty much it.  Even though a lot of third parties are losing their shirts because of high PS3/360 development cost, their solution is to just keep throwing more money into the hole.

This gen is pretty much becoming the Darwin's Theory of the videogame industry.  Companies will have to evolve in order to survive while the ones that refuse to change will go extinct.

[blackfootsteps]

Whaaat?
PS3 outsells Wii

Am I to assume your  joking? It was posted Nov 16th 2007

Or you could assume I'm a moron Sorry guys. I knew I'd read somewhere that PS3 had outsold Wii, I must've linked the wrong article.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Whaaat?
PS3 outsells Wii

Am I to assume your  joking? It was posted Nov 16th 2007

Or you could assume I'm a moron Sorry guys. I knew I'd read somewhere that PS3 had outsold Wii, I must've linked the wrong article.

PS3 outsold the Wii this week in JAPAN thanks to a big boost from GTA4

[Kairon]

I can't help but fear that the animosity to the Wii you can find in some places will prevail, and I can't help but worry that the American penchant for "bigger, better, more explosions" will have a deathgrip on large swaths of the community.

History has proven otherwise, and that's really all the evidence you need...

Ah, history. You are a Nintendo fanboi's comfort in a time of need.

[NWR_Lindy]

When developers look at the Wii, they look at what games are driving Wii sales.  It's stuff like Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Guitar Hero, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, and Super Mario Galaxy.  Those are all established game genres on the Wii, so if you make a game in the same vein as any of those you're pretty much assured that you'll have an audience that's willing to give your game a shot.

If I was a developer of, say, a first-person shooter or an epic RPG (a la Bethesda), I'd look at the Wii and see it as a pretty risky proposition.  That's because there's no real history of those genres on Wii (at least nothing notable), meaning that there's no built-in audience for a game of that type.  And, as a third-party, is it my responsibility to cultivate that audience?  Heck no.  I want to act in the best interests of my company, which is to not expose it to putting a game out there on the market that has a legitimate chance of bombing.

Now - as the same first-person shooter or epic RPG developer - when I look at the 360/PS3, there are several very successful epic RPGs and first-person shooters, so I know - know, not suppose, or surmise, or hope - that there is an audience for that type of game on those platforms.  There's a lot less risk involved, because again, it's very likely that there's an audience out there that's willing to give my game a shot.  It's likely that I will see some return on my investment.

I think this line of thinking is why you see some developers shying away from Wii.  It doesn't help that Nintendo itself isn't pushing anything on the console beyond its own existing franchises and Blueoceanware (it's not like they're announcing a new Golden Sun or a cool new first-person shooter; third-parties are their own if they want to go after that audience, and that audience is already on 360/PS3).

Even beyond the first-person shooter and epic RPG genres that I use as examples, are developers that must think it's pointless to go up against Nintendo games head-to-head.  I can see a developer saying, "I want to make a kart racer, but why on earth would I want to go head-to-head against Mario Kart Wii?  There's no way I'm going to out-Mario Kart Mario Kart."

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"third-parties are their own if they want to go after that audience"

I guess game companies have dropped the "no risk, no reward" philosophy of business.

Have fun with your monthly Guitar Bands and Rock Heroes, as well as your quarterly James Bond games.

[Bill Aurion]

When developers look at the Wii, they look at what games are driving Wii sales.  It's stuff like Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Guitar Hero, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, and Super Mario Galaxy.  Those are all established game genres on the Wii, so if you make a game in the same vein as any of those you're pretty much assured that you'll have an audience that's willing to give your game a shot.

Then why haven't we seen many platformers?  Metroid Prime 3 ALSO sold very well, why haven't wee seen more GOOD first-person shooters?  Zelda?  Why not any adventure games?  It's very easy to filter out the obvious when you are an ignorant publisher/developer...

[Bill Aurion]

It doesn't help that Nintendo itself isn't pushing anything on the console beyond its own existing franchises and Blueoceanware

Eh?  So you are just ignoring the number of new franchises that they revealed to be publishing at their conference last month?  Line Attack Heroes?  Cosmic Walker?  Dynamic Slash?  Plus the resurrection of niche franchises like Punch-Out, Trace Memory, and Sin & Punishment?  THESE ARE THE GAMES THAT NINTENDO MAKES!

Please stop with this hilarious farce of it somehow being Nintendo's fault that developers are putting out SHOVELWARE...HUGE DIFFERENCE, HERE, SILKS...NINTENDO = GOOD GAMES, OTHER DEVELOPERS = SHOVELWARE...

Even beyond the first-person shooter and epic RPG genres that I use as examples, are developers that must think it's pointless to go up against Nintendo games head-to-head.  I can see a developer saying, "I want to make a kart racer, but why on earth would I want to go head-to-head against Mario Kart Wii?  There's no way I'm going to out-Mario Kart Mario Kart."

Okay, so you decide to completely negate your first argument and say that it's because they don't want to "challenge" Ninty?  So then it has absolutely nothing to do with what Ninty is making AT ALL?  Well I guess this makes sense then!  Developers only want to churn out shovelware, and that's one genre Ninty doesn't touch...

[UltimatePartyBear]

Even beyond the first-person shooter and epic RPG genres that I use as examples, are developers that must think it's pointless to go up against Nintendo games head-to-head.  I can see a developer saying, "I want to make a kart racer, but why on earth would I want to go head-to-head against Mario Kart Wii?  There's no way I'm going to out-Mario Kart Mario Kart."

Sure they could.  Nintendo has certainly out-Mario Karted Mario Kart Wii several times in the past. 

[Flames_of_chaos]

Well Lindy Ubisoft scored big on Red Steel even though it wasn't exactly a great game and Namco's releasing Tales of Symphonia on Wii next week and you can't forget about the RPG storm that's going to hit Wii in 2009. In Japan TOS on Wii did 167,000 in the first two weeks which isn't bad at all. Dragon Quest Swords did more than half a million in Japan as well.

So RPGs will have no real problems on the Wii and FPS games can be popular as well if more developers would be more dedicated in making them. Metroid Prime 3 and Medal of Honor Heroes 2 show that the results can be excellent. I suppose it will be interesting how Call Of Duty WaW and Conduit shape up. I have a feeling Conduit, HoD, and MadWorld will be heavily pushed by Sega.

[Bill Aurion]

Dragon Quest Swords did more than half a million in Japan as well.

Ironically, this is STILL Squenix's best-selling console release this generation...Pretty pathetic, eh?  I guess RPGs aren't all that popular on 360 after-all...

[NWR_Lindy]

I'm just trying to rationalize why some third-party developers might stay away from the Wii, Bill.  Calm down.

I just don't think that the Wii is as hospitable for third-parties as you necessarily think it is.  EA put out Madden 09 and it sold like crap.  Square-Enix isn't heavily backing the system with its usual darker RPG fare.  And these two developers have gobs of money to throw at development, and are most in position to incur risk...yet they aren't doing so.  Don't you think there's a reason for that?

[Flames_of_chaos]

Dragon Quest Swords did more than half a million in Japan as well.

Ironically, this is STILL Squenix's best-selling console release this generation...Pretty pathetic, eh?  I guess RPGs aren't all that popular on 360 after-all...

Heres the thing Bill a lot of Japanese gamers that bought a 360 for something like ToV, IU or Ace Combat 6 in Japan quickly sold it after they were done with it since in Japan the used market there is bigger than the crooks at Gamestop would ever imagine.  I think Square and Namco were banking on US and Europe for 360 RPGS, IU did bad in America that it quickly dropped to 39.99, ToV I think is doing relatively well in America, Eternal Sonata didn't do so hot and Culdcept Saga flopped badly. 

I think Square and Namco will have more RPG success on Wii,PS3,DS and PSP more than anything. I think there is rumors that Tales Of Vesperia will be receiving a PS3 port as well.

[Mario]

Third parties are just plain retarded for not bombarding Wii with First Person Shooters. Even Far Cry Vengeance is a crap game but fun on Wii. Imagine a good game. Instead we get Quantum of Sausage.

Nintendo opened the door for amazing games with Wii, all third parties had to do was step through it, and they did this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdim66k8d0

You really can't rationalize this when they are wrong.

[Bill Aurion]

I just don't think that the Wii is as hospitable for third-parties as you necessarily think it is.  EA put out Madden 09 and it sold like crap.  Square-Enix isn't heavily backing the system with its usual darker RPG fare.  And these two developers have gobs of money to throw at development, and are most in position to incur risk...yet they aren't doing so.  Don't you think there's a reason for that?

Yet Square-Enix is shoveling tons of money into several high-budget projects on the last-place system...Is there a reason?  I'm sure there is...Does it make good business sense?  Not at all...Would you like to see a list of all the games Square-Enix published JUST for the PS2 during the PS2's reign?

All-Star Professional Wrestling III
Ambrosia Odyssey
Code Age Commanders
Dawn of Mana
Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII
Dragon Quest & Final Fantasy in Itadaki Street Special
Dragon Quest V
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (Demo Disc)
Dragon Quest: Young Yangus' Mysterious Dungeon
Drakengard
Drakengard 2
Final Fantasy X-2
Final Fantasy X-2 International + Last Mission
Final Fantasy XI Chains of Promethia / Rise of the Zilart All-In-One Pack 2004
Final Fantasy XII
Final Fantasy XII International: Zodiac Job System
Front Mission 4
Front Mission 5: Scars of the War
Front Mission Online
Fullmetal Alchemist 2: Curse of the Crimson Elixir
Fullmetal Alchemist 3: Kami wo Tsugu Shoujo
Fullmetal Alchemist and the Broken Angel
Grandia III
Hanjuku Hero: 7 Nin no Hanjuku Eiyuu
Hanjuku Monogatari 4: 7 Nin no Hanjuku Eiyuu - Hanjuku Ginga Bentou
Heavy Metal Thunder
Kingdom Hearts II
Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix
Kingdom Hearts RE: Chain of Memories
Musashi: Samurai Legend
Radiata Stories
Romancing SaGa
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
UNLIMITED SaGa
Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria

Okay, now let's look at their entire console output this generation...

Final Fantasy Versus XIII
The Last Remnant
Final Fantasy XI
Final Fantasy XIII
Infinite Undiscovery
Project Sylpheed
Star Ocean: The Last Hope

Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life as a King
Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon

And we are already at the end of Year 2 and some of these aren't even out yet...Can you find a reason besides poor business sense?  Don't worry, there aren't any wrong answers...I don't think ANYONE knows why you've shove MORE money onto a system with pitifully worse sales...

Heres the thing Bill a lot of Japanese gamers that bought a 360 for something like ToV, IU or Ace Combat 6 in Japan quickly sold it after they were done with it since in Japan the used market there is bigger than the crooks at Gamestop would ever imagine.  I think Square and Namco were banking on US and Europe for 360 RPGS, IU did bad in America that it quickly dropped to 39.99, ToV I think is doing relatively well in America, Eternal Sonata didn't do so hot and Culdcept Saga flopped badly.

Yeah, Vesperia is doing well as the second best-selling Tales worldwide...at around 70-80K in the U.S....Want to know the worldwide sales of Tales of Symphonia?  =)

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

[soon to be 3rd best selling Tales game]

"EA put out Madden 09 and it sold like crap"

[crap in, crap out.  especially on marketing]

"and they did this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbdim66k8d0"

[Ian Sane]

Third parties that support irrelevant portions of the market are irrelevant until further notice.

I really hate this sort of attitude and it's a complete flip-flop of the typical attitude of a Nintendo fan from only a few years ago.

With Nintendo fans it used to be more about the artistic merits of gaming.  The Cube was selling like crap and Nintendo was completely out-of-touch with mainstream gaming but we didn't care.  Well we wanted better third party support and wanted Nintendo to be financially successful enough to stay in business and continue making games.  And maybe we wanted Nintendo to be more popular just because, well, you want stuff that's good to get recognition.  But the important thing was that Nintendo made good games.  No one wanted them to compromise their quality for financial success.

But now so many people on this forum have the opposite approach.  It's all about mainstream success.  It's all about money.  It's all about the blue ocean market share which NONE OF US are actually a part of.  Sony and MS are bad because they don't sell as many consoles as Nintendo, not because of anything to do with the the quality of their consoles or games.  And any developer that supports the lower selling consoles is irrelevent.  Games that sell are good, games that don't are crap.

What the hell attitude is this?  Did everyone invest in Nintendo?  Remember when EA would make money hand over fist with SH!T?  No one here praised them for it.  It didn't matter how many millions of games they sold they made sh!t so they were sh!t.  And Nintendo couldn't give Gamecubes away but they made great games so they were awesome.  A developer's relevence is based on the quality of the games they make.  Not the popularity, not the sales figures.  If the game's awesome, it's relevent.  Or at least that's how any true gamer should see it.  We play games, not sales figures.

Maybe third parties just don't like Nintendo's mainstream pandering sell-out attitude.  Doesn't make sense from a business point of view but it does from an artistic one.

[Mario]

Well, Nintendo still makes awesome games, and third parties excuses are no longer valid. That about sums it up.

[NWR_Lindy]

If you think your game won't sell on a certain platform, not putting it on that platform makes perfect business sense.  Like I said, developers and publishers don't want to incur risk.  For example, developing a first-person shooter on Wii could be viewed as a risky move because 1) people aren't buying the console for first-person shooters in the first place, and 2) there isn't a proven market for first-person shooters on the console to begin with.

I'm not saying that developers ignoring certain genres on Wii doesn't annoy me.  I'm just saying that I can understand, on several levels, why they're doing it.

Also, Madden 09 wasn't crap at all.  It got lots of 8's and 9's (it scored 82 on Metacritic, which is better than de Blob), and yet it still didn't sell.  Numbers like these aren't encouraging for third-parties, especially when it's for a game like Madden that has a massive built-in audience and shouldn't even really need marketing at this point.

[Mario]

Yes and if someone thinks shitting while upside down is a good idea, they'll do that.

[NWR_Lindy]

Ah, that's what I come here for - the mature debates.

[Flames_of_chaos]

If you think your game won't sell on a certain platform, not putting it on that platform makes perfect business sense.  Like I said, developers and publishers don't want to incur risk.  For example, developing a first-person shooter on Wii could be viewed as a risky move because 1) people aren't buying the console for first-person shooters in the first place, and 2) there isn't a proven market for first-person shooters on the console to begin with.

Then why was Red Steel a million seller? Metroid sold well (well it's not a FPS but a FPA), Medal of Honor Heroes 2 got plenty of praise. Just that developers didn't put effort in their games and/or just ignored the genre on the Wii and moved on to casual shovelware games.

I'm not saying that developers ignoring certain genres on Wii doesn't annoy me.  I'm just saying that I can understand, on several levels, why they're doing it.

Easy answer is that they don't want to take the risk. I think the biggest 3rd party risk taker on Wii is SEGA.  They are releasing games that you are claiming that aren't viable on the Wii according to trends.

Also, Madden 09 wasn't crap at all.  It got lots of 8's and 9's (it scored 82 on Metacritic, which is better than de Blob), and yet it still didn't sell.  Numbers like these aren't encouraging for third-parties, especially when it's for a game like Madden that has a massive built-in audience and shouldn't even really need marketing at this point.

You should know that Madden doesn't traditionally sell well on Wii and DS when you compare it to Sony and Microsoft platforms. EA will always release sports games on the Wii because they are trying to get profits from as many platforms as possibly. If 3rd parties aren't encouraged by sale numbers then why do companies still make a lot of games for the Wii and DS? The obvious answer is that they can make money as they could on any other platform.