Topic: BLAH BLAH BLAH: GameCube 64

[Hostile Creation]

JubJub, that makes absolutely no sense.

[PaLaDiN]

"Nintendo's never going to be no. 1 again, I don't care what Reggie or Iwata have to say about that. Get over it."

What if everybody working at Sony and Microsoft suddenly died for unexplained reasons?

Just a hypothetical question.

[Athlon-pv]

That would be very bad tho my best friend works for sony .

Like i said before you can not expect a 180 degree turn from Nintendo, but somethings might change now that the new hardware of MS will be more alike the hardware of the Revolution this could be something which we will have to see at E3 (suggested announcements for next gen hardware should be there) if so then "ports" and development time of 3rd party titles might become easier .

Even tho the gamecube might be "doomed" im sure that people at Nintendo can look past the spreadsheet monkeys advice (NoE = good example of spreadsheet monkeys) and "give" more to us gamers but how much more and at what pace maybe that will endup happening in a years time and if they will have adjusted some of their "market strategy".  

[binkykazooie]

Wall Street sales data for Japanese firms trading on the Nikkei do prove Nintendo's GameCube is the #1 console in Japan.

That's financial proof. And no financial firm has ever bad-mouthed Nintendo in either America or Japan.

As for what's been said, it's too true. The best quote is that Nintendo is the Apple of gaming.  Maybe these two corps should team-up and release the nMac or the MacCube or something because, in Nintendo's case, if I'm not a Mario-freak (in the same vein as Jesus-freak), then I should move along. However, as also pointed out (by some Microsoft employees and a poster here) Nintendo's games are high quality. Don't fit totally with the Apple comparison (I think Mac software, with the exception of Office, Photoshop, and Illlustrator, suck), but yes, Nintendo is getting that attitude about it.

As for the games, let's look at the most recent release of anything:

Tekken 5 on PS2. Where is a Cube version? Even GBA got a Tekken. Oh, wait, I'm supposed to use the GB Player and, voila! I havce Tekken on the Cube. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me.

Devil May Cry 3.  A real action game that reminds me of old NES games like Castlevania. What's my alternative here? I'll have to get back to this one some other day.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. Okay, it's on Cube, but like most games on Cube, it feels cheap, and have yet to discover on-line play. Sorry, but the PS2/Xbox versions have it all over this title.

Tomb Raider (any version). Why not have a Tomb Raider on Cube? Or is it vaporware like Tomb Raider 64 (see an old EGM issue in early 1997 for one sentence from Quartermann). Regardless is the most recent game sucked, still, why no Tomb Raider?

GTA (any version). None. Nada. But I can play GTA  and GTA 2 on my GB Player. Oh, is that what Nintendo's going to say? After all, they didn't approve the prototype in late 1998 for the N64 version, and that's when the rift (yes, there is one) between Take 2 and Nintendo started.

DOOM 3. Wolfenstein. Half-Life 2. Leisure Suit Larry. Do I need to continue? These are games that have sold very well according to both EB Games and GameCrazy's in-store SKU number scans. Alas, no Cube versions. Even in the end, N64 was getting some better games (Resident Evil 2, Quake II, Tony Hawk 3), but this it stupid on Nintendo's part.

From my perspective, Nintendo should do as such:
1) 50c licensing fee per game
2) Linux or Apple Mac OS X system OS core (for easier development)
3) DVD/VCD/DivX movie playback and DVD+/-RW DL support
4) HDTV support
5) hard drive/disk with something like iTunes for downloading music
6) free online support (with ISPs like AOL, MSN, SBC)
7) Cube compatibility, use DS carts as memory cards and allow DS playback thru memcard slot
decent price point ($250 or so)
9) obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)
and 10) be nice to the retailer chains (Nintendo is the biggest bully on the planet)

Have anymore?

[Ian Sane]

"obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)"

That idea would be pretty cool.  Sega did that a lot.  Capcom classics like Strider, Ghouls 'n' Ghosts, & Final Fight CD were all made by Sega for the Genesis/Sega CD versions.  Despite their incredible failure in the 3D era Sega is actually a good act to copy.  Nintendo had a larger market share than Sony has now yet Sega managed to go head-to-head with them.  And they did it by focusing on different genres than Nintendo (ie: sports) and by providing clear alternatives to Nintendo classics to eliminate the appeal of Nintendo's exclusives.  Nintendo has Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior?  No problem because Sega has Phantasy Star.  Nintendo has Street Fighter II as an exclusive.  No problem because Sega has Eternal Champions and then later gets their own version of Street Fighter II.  Nintendo has Mario.  No problem because Sega has Sonic the Hedgehog.

Two of the biggest games this generation are GTA and Halo.  The Cube has no exclusives that are like these two games.  If Nintendo had made their own FPS that was better than Halo (not hard since Perfect Dark arguably was better) the Xbox wouldn't have had as much of an advantage.  Nintendo also could have taken the open ended approach of GTA and had a kick ass game because they're one the best developers in the world.  It didn't have to be crime oriented.  Just having an open-ended game like that could have made up for the fact that GTA is on every console BUT the Cube.  Instead we got more Mario and Pokemon spinoffs.

It's not like Nintendo is short of resources here.  If they left Mario to EAD they would have IS, Retro, NST, HAL and third parties like Camelot & Hudson free to make new stuff that fills in the gaps.  Nintendo is perfectly capable of cancelling out the competition's exclusives while still making new innovative stuff and sequels.  It's entirely their choice to make the same repetitive Mario stuff again and again.

[InfinitysEnd]

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Two of the biggest games this generation are GTA and Halo.  The Cube has no exclusives that are like these two games.

Right now you can say that, but I would say the next Zelda is going to be pretty huge.  And that's one of the reasons Nintendo's making it: they have no other choice.  Of course Nintendo is way too proud to ever admit that's the case, but you can't ignore the fact that Wind Waker and the new Zelda are light years apart from each other on terms of overall scope.  I can't predict whether every kid and their MOM are going to have Zelda in their house like those other 2 games you mentioned, but I guess it's wishfull thinking...:/

[darknight06]

"obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)"

And now I have a question, do they really need more Twin Snakes situations?  What happened the last time they did this?  The parent company decides to do another game in the series to outdo it.  Even back then, when Sega made Ghouls and Ghosts for the Genesis, SNES was given Super Ghouls and Ghosts.  Another thing, nobody these days is going to lend out their exclusives like that to another console when you have exclusitivy contracts tied to large heaps of money.  This is part of the reason Tekken hasn't gone anywhere else except the GBA.

[Ian Sane]

"Right now you can say that, but I would say the next Zelda is going to be pretty huge."

The next Zelda is going to be pretty huge but I think it's too late for it to do much.  It will sell well but I don't think it will sell many systems.  The time to have released it was when Wind Waker came out but instead Nintendo decided to release the arty weird Zelda that had the potential to scare people off first.  Still you never know.  I don't think anyone thought Pokemon would suddenly sell Gameboys the way it did.

Zelda is a good example of an advantage Nintendo has.  Sony and MS have nothing quite like Zelda.  No one does. It's just one of those franchises that is pretty much universally respected and loved.  And no one has ever made a game that play similiar to Zelda that is even close to it quality wise.  But the choice is GTA or Zelda.  The choice should be GTA or GTA (or something comparible to it) & Zelda.  That's why cancelling out the competition's exclusives is a good strategy.  Nintendo can realistically take any genre or style of game and make it better or at worst comparably as good.  Few however can take one of Nintendo's exclusives and make it as good.  That gives Nintendo an advantage.  They can cancel out Sony's and Microsoft's exclusives pretty easily but Sony and MS can't cancel Nintendo's out as easily.  Sony and MS beat Nintendo when they have something Nintendo just plain doesn't have but the market loves.  They have yet to actually  cancel out any of Nintendo's exclusives.

[BigJim]

There are some great posts in this thread. PGC should make a new type of column to occasionally highlight reader comments.

[Jonnyboy117]

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Originally posted by: darknight06
And now I have a question, do they really need more Twin Snakes situations?

Actually, Twin Snakes might have sold much better had Nintendo published it.  At least they would have tried to market it.  Unfortunately, Konami published it and just dumped it on shelves to fend for itself.  No commercials, no nothing.  Considering how well Konami's games could perform on GameCube, I think they are the single worst publisher of this generation in terms of GC support.  At least companies like Rockstar can claim that their series might not sell on GameCube.  

[Ian Sane]

I wouldn't consider the Twin Snakes as an ideal scenario because they were remaking an old game.  What Sega was doing at the time was taking current games that were on other consoles or in the arcades and made them for the Genesis.  So it would be more like Nintendo porting Metal Gear Solid 3.  There would be a major third party game that the publisher doesn't want to port so Nintendo offers to do it for them.  

[NWR_Lindy]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That's why it's important to match the competition because it allows Nintendo to do what the competition does PLUS MORE.  Nintendo is a better developer than Sony and MS.  They design better hardware than Sony and MS.  They're more creative than Sony and MS.  They could have huge advantages over the competition if they just made sure they were competing on a level playing field.  Nintendo is like the fastest runner that always loses because they give everyone else a head start.

A-friggin'-men.  This was my point exactly.

silks

[Berto2K]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117

Actually, Twin Snakes might have sold much better had Nintendo published it.  At least they would have tried to market it.  Unfortunately, Konami published it and just dumped it on shelves to fend for itself.  No commercials, no nothing.  Considering how well Konami's games could perform on GameCube, I think they are the single worst publisher of this generation in terms of GC support.  At least companies like Rockstar can claim that their series might not sell on GameCube.

Except that there were commercials run for it.  It was Nintendo who did the commercials actually as it was part of their "Who Are You?" campaign.  It even lists Nintendo in the game's credits for marketing last I remember.  

[KDR_11k]

I still doubt Nintendo can do anything about this situation other than hope to get it right with the Rev and take second place (first place will be MS, that's inevitable).
The third parties aren't coming, the first party games can't go away (who would buy a system that has neither third party support NOR Nintendo games?). Iwata should give Sun-Tzu a read, though. More aggressive warfare will give N a larger slice of the pie and once you've gained foothold you can expand from there. Nintendo is too busy fixing holes in their walls to mount an attack. Perhaps they should try to hide their smaller weaknesses, instead of repairing them, as MS and Sony do.When MS or Sony drops the ball, nobody cares. That's a position Nintendo can't get into by defending (i.e. trying to match the competition), they must attack. They are showing signs of trying that, though. Reggie on the mind control front, the Rev on the product front. They need to work primarily on their mind control. These days your product can be a stick wih a cord attached, if you make people excited enough they will ignore any flaws in your product. Make 'em think they need it. Perhaps change or fork the Nintendo name to associate a different name and image with the Rev. Currently N has a public perception that's below zero, they could restart at zero.

[Mario]

I honestly think everyone is overblowing all these "problems" and "reasons" why the GCN hasn't performed so well at retail, I think the core problem is their marketing, the games are awesome, the commercials suck, if the commercials showed good footage from the games, the commercials would rock. I'm not saying this is the "core" problem but I do think it's a good example of it.

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These days your product can be a stick wih a cord attached, if you make people excited enough they will ignore any flaws in your product.

I agree with this too.

[Athlon-pv]

just saw on cnn that in the bizbar Nintendo raises profit est. for 2004-2005 by 17%  

[wushupants]

Sigh... When I said Nintendo should listen to the fans I didn't mean "Waahhhh!! Give us all the Nintendo-related stuff we want!" That's a very narrow way of thinking. Fans actually want more than Nintendo related stuff! Problem is... Nintendo is so greedy, they don't want any other influence from any other developers flooding the GC. If anything, their attempt at co-developing games and building relationships with other developers should be a sign of that. Instead, they should let all of those crazy Anime-based games come on over to the GC (state-side anyway) but nooooooo... they don't let them touch ground here! It's all about Mario, Pokemon, DK, Metroid and Zelda! We also want Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Inuyasha, Guilty Gear, Z.O.E., more RPG's, MARVEL VS. CAPCOM (HINT HINT!)!!!!! We actually want all that madness PS2ers have! We certainly feel left out! So many experiences we have to wish for and yet forget about simply because we are so FRICKIN' LOYAL... sigh... very frustrating. So... with that said, I can only hope and dream Nintendo will one day realize their greediness is blinding them, then come to their senses, and become powerful again... more so than before. Amen.


One more thing... I know about %200 of you will say "keep dreaming." But we all know Nintendo is truly the best and they have the talent and that spark for innovation... they just need a more open-minded strategy. Instead of creating their own little empire, they should just become part of the industry.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

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Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario".

A kick ass role playing game, have you heard of 'The Legend of Zelda"?

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Nintendo is so greedy, they don't want any other influence from any other developers flooding the GC. If anything, their attempt at co-developing games and building relationships with other developers should be a sign of that. Instead, they should let all of those crazy Anime-based games come on over to the GC (state-side anyway) but nooooooo... they don't let them touch ground here! It's all about Mario, Pokemon, DK, Metroid and Zelda! We also want Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Inuyasha, Guilty Gear, Z.O.E., more RPG's, MARVEL VS. CAPCOM (HINT HINT!)!!!!! We actually want all that madness PS2ers have! We certainly feel left out! So many experiences we have to wish for and yet forget about simply because we are so FRICKIN' LOYAL... sigh... very frustrating. So... with that said, I can only hope and dream Nintendo will one day realize their greediness is blinding them, then come to their senses, and become powerful again... more so than before. Amen.

Are you frekin kidding me "Nintendo greedy, dont want other influences from any other developers", dont you relise that some of the games that PS2 have are originaly made from Nintendo. Street fighter, Final fantasy, Doom, etc, these games where made on the snes. But I do agree with you about getting more RPG's on Nintendo.

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I honestly think everyone is overblowing all these "problems" and "reasons" why the GCN hasn't performed so well at retail, I think the core problem is their marketing, the games are awesome, the commercials suck, if the commercials showed good footage from the games, the commercials would rock. I'm not saying this is the "core" problem but I do think it's a good example of it.

Your correct, if the commercials showed a good footage then people would go and get it, I think Nintendo should start thinking about advertising the next huge hit "ZELDA" or start looking at what people are into these days.

[BigJim]

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A kick ass role playing game, have you heard of 'The Legend of Zelda"?

Could you elaborate on this Zelda of which you speak?  One big game in a genre doesn't satisfy a system for its life. I was giving examples and not referring only to Nintendo, but securing kick-ass 3rd party games as well.  

[Mario]

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Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario".

Paper Mario is a kick ass role-playing game.

[Bill Aurion]

Paper Mario kicks whoever said that's ass...

[BigJim]

Uh, again they were examples. The point made was that next time they should acquire more kick-ass 3rd party support, and avoid being pigeon-holed as the console of "star power" and "safe" games.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

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Uh, again they were examples. The point made was that next time they should acquire more kick-ass 3rd party support, and avoid being pigeon-holed as the console of "star power" and "safe" games.

Sorry BigJim, I was meaning to say 'The Legend of Zelda: four swords adventure',and yes you guys are correct that paper mario is a hardcore game and I understand where you are going BigJim with more kick-ass 3rd party support, and not being 'safe', 'starpower' games.

[Robageejammin]

When I first saw the new Blah Blah Blah title on the front page, I kinda got turned off and didnt want to get frustrated with Nintendo crapness again, so I blew it off for a while. But, to my surprise, this is one of the most intelligent and interesting discussions I have ever seen on the topic. Keep in mind, i'm the TYP, Bill, etc kinda fan. And though I usually get really angry or upset after some editorials, forum responses, and the such, I was left with a very satisfying feeling this time. There definitely wasnt any "whining" in sight. It was very well argumented and I even read almost every response @_@. I think most people would agree that it cleared up lots of misunderstanding with different gamer's perspectives and was really enjoyable.

Anyways, if this is somehow the result of this new so called roundtable style, I like it, and I'd love to see more.

Great read

[wushupants]

Thank you, thank you Robageejammin. I made it all possible.