Topic: BLAH BLAH BLAH: GameCube 64

[TheYoungerPlumber]

You can discuss the BLAH BLAH BLAH: GameCube 64 article here.

Also, we welcome feedback on this somewhat different, more roundtable-ish format for BLAH BLAH BLAH.

[Bill Aurion]

I'm revolting...

[Mario]

Here we go again..

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Jonathan Lindemann: I never had a problem with Nintendo courting the kid market. Most of their younger-skewing games are brilliant. It's the fact that they pursue this market to the exclusion of all else that bothers me.

Uh... no, they aren't. Their games appeal to EVERYONE, and some games like Metroid Prime, only appeal to people over a certain age. Am I a young kid for enjoying Wario Ware?

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For example, I'm playing God of War on PS2, absolutely amazing game, sure it skirts some boundaries but it's spectacular. Why isn't it on GameCube? There's no real reason aside from the fact that Sony has cultivated that "mature" (whatever that means) market segment while Nintendo has ignored it, so games like GoW are never released for their platforms.

That's pretty silly, might as well ask why Metroid Prime or Eternal Darkness aren't on PS2 since PS2 is so mature and Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness are rated Mature.

All I see is whining, I guess I should consider myself lucky that none of those negative points really affect me at all, and GameCube is my number one console, I have a PS2 but only for a few games, GC has the most variety in my opinion. As a gamer i'd rather Nintendo didn't scale back on their big first party releases just so a bunch of crappy EA games sell a few more copies.

Are you guys really so angry that Nintendo has no big GC games in April? Have you already played and finished all the other 350 odd games released? Geez, i'm too busy playing Jungle Beat and Paper Mario 2 to even thing about getting more games yet, and I still haven't bought RE4 yet! I wish I had as much time and money as you guys to be looking at getting more games already.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Firstly, this article was not designed to be a whine-fest, nor do I believe it is.  It started as a simple conversation that evolved into something we agreed was post-worthy.

Honestly I'm not annoyed at all about April's non-lineup.  But PS2 does have games right now, and it is an issue worth considering.

My stance is this: I don't personally mind if most good games released for Nintendo system are Nintendo-published.  The problem is that most GC owners are like me.  And this is precisely because Nintendo is such a strong first party publisher.  What CAN Nintendo do?  They shouldn't hold back their own games, but their own games disuade third parties from even trying.  Quite the pickle.

[Jonnyboy117]

You know, I have two jobs and am a full time grad student and I've still run out of GameCube games I want to play.  Like many other people, I do a fairly good job of playing the games I want to play around the time they come out, and avoiding the ones I have no interest in or that I know are crap.  So when only one game comes out for the system in all of April, and it's one I'm not interested in, and I've played most of the previously released games that I want to play, yes Houston, there is a problem.  You could reduce your argument down to any number of games in a system's library, and it's still invalid.  Active gamers need continual releases or they get bored with their systems.  Yes, I could go back and get every single star in Super Mario 64 DS, but I don't want to, and none of the newer games interests me, so my DS will continue to sit on that table like a brick until I finally see a game I'm interested in playing.  Oh wait, my import copy of Meteos is due any day.  :-)  Sure am glad DS came out in America before Japan...a lot of good it did us.

[Jonnyboy117]

And, I want to add that if you can't see the parallels between the final years of the N64 and these final years of the GameCube as the article's title implies, you're freaking crazy.  Yeah, I'm excited as hell for Zelda, but that's a long way off.

[Bill Aurion]

Firstly, this article was not designed to be a whine-fest, nor do I believe it is.

Yeah, I guess you're right...This surpasses "whine" into "IGN/1up.com" levels...

And I'd love to know if you've purchased Jungle Beat, Jonny...

[PaLaDiN]

I can see your argument for the DS, sure... it's why I want Nintendo to stop wasting their time on online and get some DS games out NOW.

But GC? Jungle Beat just came out...

[StrikerObi]

He got the import of Jungle Beat if I remember correctly, probably because there was nothing to play in December except for Metroid Prime II which I'm sure he beat ASAP when he got it, because he's a huge Metroid fan.

I got Jungle Beat and burned it out in a weekend. It's probably my fault for playing it too much that weekend, but I'm still pretty much done with it. Now I'm playing Lumines and WipeOut Pure. Both of which I'm pretty sure I've clocked more time on already than I have on my DS that I got at launch.

[Artimus]

Great convo guys. Nice to see you saying the truth unlike some people on your board.

[Bill Aurion]

Like the people that enjoy Nintendo's games?  Oh **** I NEVER SAW THAT COMING!

[Deguello]

Hey Artimus, you get ZERO points for kissing an ass.

I don't agree with most of the staff here.

Hell this is a big waste of time anyway.  PGC did a special on a bad interview with IGN?  While Ubisoft in another story is promoting in-game advertisement like it's a good thing?  We did a special in THIS?  The UbiSoft thing is worth a million editorials.  Color me disappointed.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Like the people that enjoy Nintendo's games?  Oh **** I NEVER SAW THAT COMING!

I really hate how so many people who hate reading criticism of Nintendo's policies treat criticism as fanboyish insulting against Nintendo.  We like Nintendo, and that's why felt this was worth discussing.

One game a month is enough for me, and I love Nintendo games, so I'm not unhappy with Nintendo's first party parcelling strategy.  But Nintendo fans who are content (like me) should still try to understand why others might be less satisfied.

[Berto2K]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
You know, I have two jobs and am a full time grad student and I've still run out of GameCube games I want to play.  

I really hope you are not counting your work here at PGC as one of those jobs Jonny.  I work 2 real life jobs (60+ hrs/wk) where I get paid, plus my countless hours working at AMN.  If you can't find ways to keep enjoying your games, its nobody's fault but your own.

Why should I care about 3rd party games when most of the time they half ass the quality or delay the release dates for Cube versions until months later.  And then they say its the Cube's userbase fault for their lack of sales.

I will agree that Nintendo is in a Catch 22.  They are so huge themselves, that if they slow their productioin more 3rd party games might sell.  But if they slow their revenues drop and lose employees.  From their perspective, ya its a no brainer to put your best out there as much as possible to keep their income as high as possible.

[Mario]

I understand where you're coming from TYP, I feel the same regarding being content about the GC lineup, but I also understand the people complaining, but that's their loss, and to me it honestly just sounds like they're complaining for the sake of complaining, their reasons are valid but I just don't understand what they are feeling. A lot of games on GC to me are timeless so I always have something to play.

[Bill Aurion]

I really hate how so many people who hate reading criticism of Nintendo's policies treat criticism as fanboyish insulting against Nintendo.

Try reading Artimus' post again..."Truth"?  A jumble of opinionated criticisms is "truth"?  Believe it or not, there are people like me that love Nintendo games for what they are and don't complain about a "lack of mature content" because that's the kind of gamer I am...I'm going to give an alternative example...Look at the PS2 lineup...Look at the XBox lineup...I own both consoles, but guess what!?  VERY LITTLE APPEALS TO ME...Wait, this sounds familiar...

I am MORE than satisfied with my GameCube, as I love my so-called "kid-oriented" games since they are fun, and I play games to have fun...I am MORE than satisfied with my DS, with the super-fresh Yoshi Touch & Go and Wario Ware Touched...I am NOT impressed by "console experience" PSP and it's boring stockpile of PS2 rejects and ports...

Games that sacrifice gameplay for their mature themes like Prince of Persia sicken me, and I just outright can't stand most of the games on either my PS2 or XBox...Why don't they adapt to my tastes?  Maybe I should make a whiny bitchfest about how much both Sony and MS haven't appealed to my tastes?

So this stupid "Oh the GC and DS do not satisfy my tastes" crap can EASILY fit the other consoles as well depending on a person's tastes...period...

[Artimus]

What PS2 and XBOX games do you own, Bill? And if they suck so much why did you buy them?

[TheYoungerPlumber]

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Believe it or not, there are people like me that love Nintendo games for what they are and don't complain about a "lack of mature content" because that's the kind of gamer I am

Of course I believe you.  Where did I complain that I wanted more mature games on the GC?  I'm saying OTHERS are complaining about that, and they have a reason to.  Nintendo promised they would expand to the more "mature" market, but they have not been successful.

And yes, you can certainly complain about how Microsoft and Sony are aiding the formation of a souless industry future.  You're right.  Go ahead and complain about how the Xbox doesn't have enough quality family-friendly content--I'll tell you that you are absolutely correct, its line-up doesn't appeal to me, so I don't own the system.

So I guess in some way I do agree with you, Bill: we don't need to complain if we can just buy another system and fill the void.  But, then, shouldn't Nintendo prefer if gamers didn't need to buy a second system to get their fix?  I think this is the root of many complaints.  But of course, I'm talking for a group I am not a member of, so I must be careful.  Perhaps StrikerObi or the Jonnys should confirm/refute my statements of their positions.  

[Deguello]

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What PS2 and XBOX games do you own, Bill? And if they suck so much why did you buy them?

Read his post again, attempt to comprehend it, and try to reduce your level of moron.

[mkeyes]

I realize that this will probably get me killed however I think that since Nintendo is acting like a 3rd party perhaps they should consider selling themselves to Microsoft (yes I know this will never happen). If you look at the next generation of systems Nintendo & Microsoft's core components are fairly similar (IBM CPU & ATI graphics) so why couldn't Microsoft buy Nintendo and then simply release two systems each designed differently? You could buy the Nintendo model or the Microsoft model each would play the same games but it would allow the people who like Nintendo system designs to get their fix and allow the 'mature' gamers to get their fix. Frankly it wouldn't be that bad either since I think Microsoft would really push Nintendo games and put them online. It would also allow Microsoft to get plenty of leverage in the Japanese market. Although as time goes on Microsoft will need Nintendo less and less since they'll be developing their own relationships and what not. I think that Nintendo needs to realize that out of all the companies that could buy them (EA & Sony) I think Microsoft would be the most likely to not change things on a game creation level too dramatically and not treat the properties horribly.

[PaLaDiN]

I've been thinking and there's something about this whole argument that doesn't gel with me.

If you think about it, you're basically asking Nintendo to be more like Sony and Microsoft... where does that leave people like me and Bill who are more than satisfied with Nintendo's way of doing things? I think part of the reason I hate this online movement so much is because Nintendo's just following Microsoft and Sony, and in so doing are dedicating less time and effort into what makes their own stuff special.

People are already complaining that the DS doesn't have hardcore Nintendo fan games or not enough Nintendo games in the first place, and then those same people are turning right around and asking Nintendo to hurry up with their online plan... I think they're directly related, I think Nintendo's trying too much already to be more like Sony and Microsoft. It's why Iwata's words cheer me up a lot more than Reggie's... screw the people wanting Nintendo to follow suit in their competitors' footsteps, screw the online lovers, I want Nintendo to forge their own path like they always have... to me that's always been part of their charm, even when they've been wrong... that I can get a different experience on Nintendo systems than I can get on the others. It just saddens me when I see that not only are they starting to conform to the industry and let Sony and Microsoft dictate where it should go next, but that their own former fans are actively encouraging this.

[Athlon-pv]

The problem described in the part do sound like what happened to the N64 more or less. But somethings are hard to change.

MS and Sony :

How can a company like Nintendo fight these 1 just making a huge debt to sell it systems and buying "every" developer to work exclusively on their platform (hence no game on the GC) (and shell space in stores also is a key item Nintendo loses out (atleast here in Europe))
and the other which is the reigning king of the console's with a media budget for triple A release's everyone drools at.

Nintendo cant persue it like these companies have for different reasons. A development cycle these days is a good 2 years so if Nintendo wants to get hold of these new people for their system it is a long wait for them to have finally shipped a product (and devs are picky these days (when you can sell your title on PS2 or Xbox why bother with GameCube?)).

But when you say there are droughts indeed , but would or should it be filled with average titles produced by Nintendo 1st or 2nd party "fillers" not sure if that would be the answer.


The things that are changing are release dates (between America/Europe/Japan), nothing more then "good press" for  Nintendo. Indeed Nintendo is lacking some sort of stretch that they cant get "good" games on their system. But im not sure if we are missing out on all those "duds" that appear on other systems. Where we get "hyped" into thinking the games on that system are substantially more and better then on "our" platform.

Being that i am a single console owner and hardly play anymore i still got bothered enough to buy Tales of Symphonia , which i rather enjoyed. I wish it would be a little stronger but i cant see Nintendo finding a smart strategy to come up with the goods on a short term.  

[trip1eX]

Nintendo has stated the direction they are going.  They are going after the casual or non-gamer.  I was looking forward to their next gen controller until I heard they want to make the controller look inviting to Mom's.  That kinda put a damper on Nintendo's next gen for me.

I wanted to hear about innovation for the gamer who enjoys Nintendo's games and likes games in general.  I wanted a controller that brought some mouse-like precision to the console.  

Instead they are going after Soccer Mom's.  

I'm a new Cube owner too.  I just got one in January.  Love it.  If you haven't played Nintendo games in years (like me) then it is an entire breath of fresh air.   But I don't want my games to get more cute or too much simpler.  I like Zelda and Mario and Metroid and Pikmin and Lugis and Mario Kart.  

[Athlon-pv]

btw i do hope that the drought is due to them having enough people working on DS and Revolution titles

[Mario]

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Originally posted by: trip1eX
Nintendo has stated the direction they are going.  They are going after the casual or non-gamer.  I was looking forward to their next gen controller until I heard they want to make the controller look inviting to Mom's.  That kinda put a damper on Nintendo's next gen for me.

I wanted to hear about innovation for the gamer who enjoys Nintendo's games and likes games in general.  I wanted a controller that brought some mouse-like precision to the console.  

Instead they are going after Soccer Mom's.  

I'm a new Cube owner too.  I just got one in January.  Love it.  If you haven't played Nintendo games in years (like me) then it is an entire breath of fresh air.   But I don't want my games to get more cute or too much simpler.  I like Zelda and Mario and Metroid and Pikmin and Lugis and Mario Kart.

I think you're a bit confused in the direction they are going in, simple controls and simple inferface does not mean simple gameplay (Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat proves this). This way, they are appealing to EVERYONE, which is their goal. There's no way they're going to abandon their core fanbase that's keeping them alive. Also, we haven't even seen Nintendo's next console yet, anything you hear is pure speculation, and it's not very wise to make up your mind about it before it even exists, just wait for E3 next month when they show it, i'm sure you'll be pleased.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Whatever Nintendo does, they must do so without sacrificing the calibur of their product.

~~~~~

Ian's fingerprints all over this thread, but he's nowhere to be seen. MYSTERY.

[Caillan]

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Uh... no, they aren't. Their games appeal to EVERYONE, and some games like Metroid Prime, only appeal to people over a certain age.

Kids like Metroid Prime becase it's cool. They want to be cool. Nobody hates Sesame Street more than a self-conscious eleven-year-old.

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Am I a young kid for enjoying Wario Ware?

Wario Ware is like the old Mario games. It's just crazy, which EVERYONE seems to love. Mario has become just bright and colourful, when it used to be... I think Ian Sane called it surreal. Surreal is a good word to describe it. Generic happy, bright and colourful visual themes won't appeal to EVERYONE: nobody over 20 watches the cartoons made for kids, and nobody expects them to. As games have become less abstract they have become narrower in their visual themes, and a narower visual theme will appeal to less people. Games that appeal to EVERYONE are Golden Sun and Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, not Mario Sunshine and Yoshi's Story.

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...but they'll never do that because they're greedy bastards.

If they screw us for first party games early with the Revolution like they have with the DS, this won't encourage third parties to come along an 'fill the gap', because there's not going to be a gap to fill. I think Nintendo should keep on doing what it's doing, and let the expansion of it's developing network continue. Though I do think they should fund origignal projects like Geist rather than loaning out their franchises like they did with Starfox. Lots of third-party games sell well on the Cube, like Sonic Adventure Battle 2, SCII, Viewtiful Joe 1& 2 and the Monkey Ball games. Third parties just ignore it anyway.

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I think you're a bit confused in the direction they are going in, simple controls and simple inferface does not mean simple gameplay

Simple gameplay can arise from complicated control, and complicated control can provide complicated gameplay. You're not forced to use the Cube controller's two anolouge sticks, d-pad, and seven buttons if you make a game for it. Why make it so simple? Zoonami's FunkyDilla is going to use one button, and nothing else. You don't need a NES controller to do that. I'm sure Jungle Beat's great fun, but you can't play a Zelda game with bongos. Playing the old Zelda games with only one or two custom item-slots is annoying enough. The bongos are cool but I don't what them to become a trend.  

[BigJim]

Note: I didn't know the "K" word was taboo, so I mistyped it intentionally so my point is understood. I'm not a bad speller, usually.

I start to cringe every time the "kidday" debate comes up. I think there is something a bit more subtle in Nintendo's methods that most people don't quite catch. Nintendo largely doesn't make kidday games, they make what I call "safe" games.

"Safe" games are games that target everybody. They're not necessarily kidday. They're just plain safe. The GameCube is two-punch platform:

1. Star power.
2. Safeness.

If you look at the GameCube's top sellers, you can see that virtually all of them are either "safe" or have star power. Referring to it as a "kidday" platform is sort of a poor man's dismissal of a more complex issue.

The problem is that when the platform developed a reputation for having these two qualities, conscious to the buyers or not, it knocked out the likely success of STYLIZED games, and indeed, some genres altogether.

The answer doesn't lie in holding back first party games. It lies more in COVERING THE GENRES BETTER, and not using your mainstay characters every chance you get. Create kick ass sports games. Not "Luigi's Football". Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario". A number of the "stylized" games that did get released depend on Nintendo's star power to carry them.

Making "everybody" games is not the same as making games for everybody. One could argue that PlayStation is more of an "everybody" system in that way.

Nintendo can't do it all, but the least they can do next time around is provide an open platform that doesn't get pigeon-holed so easily.

Nintendo targetting "everybody" for Revolution does give me pause. That's the DNA for more of the same. That is a legitimate concern. If they mean just more non-denominational "safe" games, then we should expect Nintendo to likely hold their current position indefinitely. We may like their games personally, but their standing won't change.

BUT, if they mean "everybody" because they will secure killer sports games, RPGs, psycho-thrillers, platformers, etc. then I am there.  I am hopeful, but not optimistic.    

[joshnickerson]

Nice article. A bit borderline on "IGN Whinefest", but nonetheless...

I'm going to have to agree with TheYoungPlumber and Bill; I honestly don't care about releasing 20-25 titles a month, when I'm probably only going to actually play through and finish one of those. Hell, I still have a few Cube games I haven't even taken out the the shinkwrap yet! One big title a month would probably be enough for me.

However, I can also see the need for more releases. I understand that some people won't necessarily care about "Game X" like other people might. But also, I have to think about the past few Christmas seasons, when literally tons of new games flooded the market, but only a few really rose to the top, while some good games were lost, probably forever. Wouldn't it have been better to spread them out over a period of time, rather than use them all in one shot?

I'd better stop, because I'm rambling now. *L*

[Pale]

First off I want to say that Justin Nation's cameo was a breath of fresh air for an old time PGC fan.  

He also had a lot of the best points IMO but that probably comes off as just kissing too much ass.

Ya know what I think this entire argument boils down to?  A grass is always greener debate.  Granted most everyone involved owns multiple systems but I still think it applies.  Take for a minute the PSP vs. DS debate.  First off, if the PSP came out first with its gorgeously large screen and THEN we got the DS, chances are the PSP screen would be stale, but a touch screen?  Come on now, thats friggen sweet.  The way it is now (which I admittedly am somewhat victim to) is that the touch screen has been out for a while, there have been a few really fun games on it, but now people are intrigued by the capabilities of the PSP.  This same argument can be made with the whole X-Box Live vs. Nintendo first party titles thing.  Many of us, as Nintendo gamers, are craving online support, yet I know several an X-Box fan who used to be Live fanatics that barely log onto it anymore.

Thinking this way maybe Nintendo does have the right idea in that they are taking risks to try and come up with the next big thing.  The problem is that their approace to it is VERY risky.  If we do have another Virtual Boy esque innovation that doesn't get a foot hold (don't get me wrong, I personally loved the virtual boy) it coudl be disaster.  The possibility of this is multiplied due to the threat to their cash cow (as the staffers pointed out).

Bottom line is, I and many others (like Bill, Mario, etc.) are happy with the current load of games.  In my case, with a computer, PS2, GCN, DS, and GBA I am completely swamped with games and the PS2 actually has very little to do with it.  I do worry that Nintendo is going to have issues but luckily the PSP came out of the gate slow....  These issues are playing a major part in a life decision I'm making right now that involves following my dream vs. staying where I am in what seems to be stability.


All that being said, I think its important that we stop all of this until after E3.  It is a huge E3 that should see both a new system and an online plan coming from Nintendo.  If they aren't spot on, then everyone can start bitching.

[WesDawg]

Seems awful whiny to me. Nobody was complaining about the fact nothing great was coming out on the PS2 back in January or February or March when a whole slew of really cool stuff was coming out on the Cube, but come April and one GOOD game is released for the PS2 and suddenly people are complaining that Nintendo doesn't have something to counter with. Articles like this make me mad.

[Lokno]

I think this is the first time I've understood the arguement that Nintendo are themselves responsible for their poor third party support. The way people talk about it, you'd think they beat them like red-headed step children. The bottomline is that they have poor third-party support because they themselves make excellect games for everyone, setting a high standard and often a childish theme. At least, that's the arguement as I understand it now. Frankly, I think being the first system out, having low development costs and online play are more important, all stuff the Gamecube also lacked. The Revolution, however, should have all these things going for it, as well as being backwards-compatible to the Gamecube.  Therefore, not only will the Gamecube be the first Nintendo console that will not die outright in the next-gen, but the revolution plans to fix the major issues with developers. So, "Don't let april fool you." -George Harrison  

[InfinitysEnd]

All I can say is that I'm probably going to be buying a PS3.  I've had enough of this and I refuse to give MS my money, so it's going to Sony.  I'll probably buy a Revolution too, but it's not going to make up for the fact that the PS3 will STILL end up having more (and probably better) games than the new N system.  Nintendo's head's in the clouds.  They've never cared about a mainstream audience.  EVER.

[joshnickerson]

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Originally posted by: InfinitysEnd
They've never cared about a mainstream audience.  EVER.

Is that actually a BAD thing?  

[trip1eX]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

I think you're a bit confused in the direction they are going in, simple controls and simple inferface does not mean simple gameplay (Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat proves this). This way, they are appealing to EVERYONE, which is their goal. There's no way they're going to abandon their core fanbase that's keeping them alive. Also, we haven't even seen Nintendo's next console yet, anything you hear is pure speculation, and it's not very wise to make up your mind about it before it even exists, just wait for E3 next month when they show it, i'm sure you'll be pleased.

Come on now.   They aren't going to abandon their core fanbase. I didn't say that.  They just are going more in the non-gamer and casual gamer direction than in the direction of the gamer who enjoys Nintendo games cause they do have the gameplay but would like more of that gameplay in some titles that don't involve Kirby or Peach or Pokemon.  I like Nintendo but I don't want them to get more cute and even simpler.    

I didn't say I made up my mind about the REvolution either.  (tho it seems you have ignored your own wise advice and made up your mind without seeing it.    )  But it sure put a damper on it for me when Iwata said he wants a controller that looks inviting to Mom's.  Nintendo's direction is there in black and white.  LIke it or not.  In de nile or not.

Personally I wish they'd go a bit in the opposite direction.  To me their games are already good for kids and non-gamers.  

Oh well to survive Nintendo probably has to focus on a niche in the market especially if they don't have 3rd party support.  And with the gameboy being their bread & butter and being aimed at kids I'm sure the Revolution will be too.  And kids have parents and Nintendo sees only half of those parents spoken to by videogame developers.  The other half are the Moms.  And that's where Nintendo is going.


 

[Jonnyboy117]

Responding to a few different questions and comments...

Yes, I played the import version of Jungle Beat and loved it to death.  I think my review score was 8.5.  I loved Metroid Prime 2 as well, but it didn't last me long because I had to beat it in three days in order to get the review done on time.

Yes, I am counting PGC as one of my jobs because it consumes 20-40 hours a week depending on what's going on.  Yesterday I worked on PGC stuff from about 2PM until about midnight, with a couple of short breaks.  At this point, it's a detriment to my studies and research at school (which I get paid for), but it's pre-E3 time so I can try to justify it and just learn to cope with the load.

I don't want Nintendo to be more like Sony and Microsoft, I want Nintendo to be more like Nintendo was fifteen years ago.  I want to play Nintendo's awesome first-party titles AND the cream of the third-party crop all on the same platform.  I think getting back to that point will require Nintendo to act more like Sony and Microsoft are acting now, yes, but there may be other ways.  The other ways Nintendo has been trying have so far failed.  If you think Nintendo is content with their current position in the market, you're deluding yourself.  Nintendo execs say everything's gravy because that's their job, but if you asked Iwata whether he wants to take back market share from Sony, he'll say "of course".  If you ask Reggie whether he's okay with third-place, he'll say "Hell no, let's go take some names and drop some swear words on their pansy asses."

The next person to call me a "former fan" is getting banned.  I take that as a serious personal insult.  If I didn't like Nintendo anymore, I'd quit this job and go buy an Xbox.  I wear Nintendo t-shirts every day, worship my Shigeru Miyamoto business card, and have a Luigi's Mansion action figure on my bookshelf.  But I'm not an irrational fan.  I'm not a zealot.  I don't love Nintendo no matter what.  They have to earn my love, and they do, but they could earn a lot more of it.

I am a consumer.  I consume games, sometimes in mere hours.  I need more games on a regular basis.  I'm willing to wait for the ones I really want, but I need others to keep me occupied in the meantime.  And in that regard, it has been hard being a GameCube owner, especially after I was so exasperated with the N64 generation and was expecting major change during this generation.

[WhoDey]

I wondered 3 years ago, and still wonder today, why doesn't Nintendo give out demo discs? Third party games sell bad on the GC? Put a few demo's on a demo disc to promote whatever 3rd parties games are coming out and give hardcore Nintendo gamers a chance to experience a game they otherwise wouldn't have even thought about. I'm not talking about putting them on shelves for $10, I'm talking about free. Pack them in with Nintendo Power, get them in EB, heck for every first party Nintendo game released their should be a demo or two included in the game that spotlights a 3rd party game. Help them out a little. It seems so obvious and yet Nintendo completely ignores it. Why would any 3rd party have a problem with this? They wouldn't.

Nintendo supposedly has 7 billion dollars in the bank, well, eat a little of it and give Nintendo fans some demos. Remember the demo that had Splinter Cell, Billy Hatcher, Soul Calibur, Sonic DX, and Viewtiful Joe? Well, I now own 3 of those games. It's too bad I had to pay $10 to try them out though.

This idea will not get Nintendo to the level of Sony in terms of 3rd party games but it can't hurt I think it would be a nice gesture toward 3rd parties.

[Ian Sane]

It's bad enough when Nintendo makes excuses.  I'm really tired of that.  It's even worse that so many of their fans use the same lame excuses in defending them.  "They make games for everyone."  "Online isn't profitable."  "Quality over quantity."  These are corporate excuses.  They aren't valid for us gamers so don't use them.  Do you have stock in Nintendo?  Don't have blind faith in Nintendo.  They have faults and they make mistakes that you shouldn't tolerate or make excuses for.

Since Jonny asked I liked the roundtable approach.  It's just easier to read.  The discussion was a little negative but it was sincere.  When 1UP talks negatively about Nintendo it comes across like they hate Nintendo and are trying to smear them.  This however was clearly written by people who love Nintendo but have been pushed to the limit.  It's like dealing with a friend who clearly has a problem but refuses to admit to it and try to solve it.  One only has so much patience and eventually you're going to reach a point where you're fed up with the friend who you can't help.

Realistically I don't expect Nintendo to do anything about only having one release in April because they can’t do anything about it.  The current release schedule is the result of what they did (or didn’t do) three years ago.  They didn’t sell enough Cubes or attract enough third party support when it counted and now they’re stuck in the same crappy situation they had with the N64.  They literally learned NOTHING from the N64 and now all they can do is ride things out and improve with the Rev.  Of course that assumes they learned something from this.

A lot of people are saying that they don’t want Nintendo to become Sony or MS.  I couldn’t agree more.  I don’t own a PS2 for a reason.  So let’s instead compare apples to apples: Cube & N64 vs NES & SNES.  The NES and SNES were clearly made by Nintendo and had the same quantity and quality of first party classics (in fact you could argue they were even better then).  Yet those classic machines also had amazing third party support, several great releases to choose from each month, and tons of variety in genres and styles.  I bought a SNES in 1994 and I still buy games for it.  I bought an N64 in 2000 and literally owned every game for it I was interested in by the time the Cube launched and I currently own pretty much every Cube game released that I want to own.  The SNES is what made me a Nintendo fan.  Why can’t Nintendo’s new consoles be at least half as good as the SNES was?  I’m not asking for Nintendo to be Sony, I’m asking for them to be Nintendo.

One thing the NES and SNES had that the Cube doesn’t is choice.  People say “Jungle Beat just came out.â€�  Well I don’t own Jungle Beat nor do I plan to.  I played Donkey Konga with Nintendo reps and on store demos and I found it fun but not worth the investment.  So since I don’t own the bongos I didn’t buy Jungle Beat.  I didn’t buy Star Fox Assault either because it sounded pretty average.  That’s the problem with the way Nintendo releases games right now.  Sure if you buy every high profile game released you’ll be satisfied but if you don’t want the “hit of the monthâ€� you’re out in the cold.  With the SNES it wasn’t like that.  If I didn’t want one of the month’s top releases I got another one or I bought one of the 30 or so other games I missed out on.  Despite Nintendo’s plans not everyone is interested in games for everyone.  There needs to be variety and choice.  Options are what make something for everybody.  Everyone likes pizza but everyone doesn’t like pizza for every meal.

So how does Nintendo get variety and attract third parties?  Well for starters there needs to be an incentive to support Nintendo.  Having higher licencing fees obviously won’t work and realistically having merely the same won’t either.  They have to offer a sweeter plum, instead of just an equally sweet one (or a less sweet one).  The development kits have to be at least as good as the competition or better.  They have to have options like online support and a flexible controller.  If you don’t even allow third parties to make whatever they want why would they support you?  That’s why connectivity flopped.  Sure it was something the competition didn’t have but it was at the expense of other things so it wasn’t an advantage it was merely an alternative.  Nintendo is offering smaller rooms with no cable for higher rent than Sony and MS.  It’s no wonder the third party support is so low.  There literally is NO REASON to make third party games for Nintendo.  It has nothing to do with first party titles stealing the thunder because that wasn’t a factor on the NES, SNES or GBA.  Nintendo even kind of tried to do the less first party thing and the result was the DS launch which was largely crappy third party junk, Feel the Magic, and one Nintendo port/remake.  They just have to make it worthwhile to support Nintendo.

[ShyGuy]

 So uh, what games did you guys want to come out in April on the Gamecube?

[Pale]

Ian I think the problem with comparing Nintendo's hay day to now is that IMO they could do the same stuff and fall even faster.  The facts are this.  Dev's like the disc format.  This really got the PlayStation rolling and now the installed base is working against Nintendo.  Dev's also like money.  This is making MS's philosophy work extremely well.  I don't really see how Nintendo could really be like Sony this gen as Sony is doing nothing more than feeding off of their previous success.  We don't want Nintendo to be asshat businesspeople like MS so that philosophy is out.  For me what Nintendo claims they are doing with the Rev is the best choice given the circumstances.  The problem with that, like I said before, is that the chance of failure is high.

What most of us want as Nintendo fans is for the industry to be a utopia.  I think thats why Bill and others get so upset by conversations like this.  We think people should like Nintendo because their opinions on the industry (at least their public ones) paint a nicer place.  We don't want money to drive our art of choice yet MS's success points to a future similar to the current music industry.  Instead of art we get product.

So is Nintendo really doing something wrong as far as their overall philosophy goes?  I don't think so.  This is why the SCIII issue pisses me off so much.  Trading IP is such a good concept for gaining exclusives.  It would force companies to rely on in-industry status rather than funds they may have received elsewhere.

To sum up cause I can't type more...  I think our complaints should be centered on the industry.

[NWR_Lindy]

Ian, I agree with you 100%.

The "one release a month is enough for me" attitude is something I don't agree with.  Like Ian is getting at, how is choice a bad thing?  With the Super NES you'd have games like Yoshi's Island and Final Fantasy III coming out in the same month.  Those were the days.

Nintendo isn't going after casual gamers, no matter what they say.  Sony and Microsoft OWN casual and non-gamers because they give them what they want: sports games and edgy titles (giving customers what they want, what a novel idea).  I agree with BigJim in the sense that they go the "safe" route, and not everybody wants the safe route, so how can they say they make games for everybody?  With Revolution they're going to attract the same people they attracted with the DS: Nintendo fans that appreciate their quirky designs and experimentation.  That's fine, but it can only take them so far.   Nintendo seems to miss the fact that they can give the "ignorant masses" what they want while also innovating, doing their creative stuff, and appealing to their core fanbase...like they did with the NES and SNES.

Nintendo is making themselves a niche brand by having this "go it alone" strategy, one that doesn't even make sense from a business standpoint, let alone a philosophical one.  For example, why wouldn't Nintendo go online if fans of sports games see online play as a differentiator?  It's no secret that GameCube ports of popular games (sports and otherwise) are seen as inferior because they lack online play for no real reason.  The GCN has a broadband adapter, but it's never been used by Nintendo themselves!  Explain that.  And people wonder why third-party games don't sell as well on GameCube...it's because PS2 and XBox versions are inherently superior because they have more features.  If you told me that these two cars both go 100mph, but this one includes an awesome stereo built-in for the same price, which one do you think I'd buy?

It baffles me that Nintendo refuses to match the abilities of their competition's products, even when the fact that they're losing sales because of it is staring them right in the face.  And before everybody chimes in saying, "Well, *I* don't care about online, online is useless, Sony and Microsoft suck,  NITNEDO FOR EVAR!!!1111!!", believe me, anybody that plays John Madden (or even Halo) cares about stuff like online play.  And that's a LOT of people.  I don't mean to make this whole argument about online either (that subject has been beaten to death); this happened with the PS2 and PSP as well.  PS2 had DVD playback which was a huge differentiator at its release, PSP has the built-in ability to play movies and MP3s...these are both abilities that people love, and will pay for.  But if you ask Nintendo, people don't need that right?  Maybe so, but isn't it nice to have the option of doing that stuff?  For all of their innovations, Nintendo can't seem to think "outside the box" in terms of what their customers might want from a game system.

Contrary to what many of you may think, I love my GameCube.  I have more games for it than any other system.  My dissatisfaction comes from the fact that I am forced to buy other systems to play games that skew towards a certain audience, or to have the "best" version of a port.  That's retarded. For crying out loud Nintendo, build online into your next system (which they've done, thank God) and start developing mature* titles on a consistent basis.  Nintendo would demolish all competition if they could round out their product portfolio with some software that has a little edge.  How about a kick-ass new franchise with adult themes and situations?  Something edgy and cool?  Or has that been scrapped in favor of another Mario Tennis game or Mario Party 10?  <shudder>

I've thought about the "grass is greener" argument, and for me it boils down to the fact that I've been disappointed with the DS since shortly after its release.  The utter coolness of the PSP (which I honestly didn't think I'd be that impressed with) has made that disappointment a lot deeper.  Still, I'm not going to sell my DS.  But I REALLY wish it featured some games that I cared about.


silks

*note that by "mature" I do not mean "Grand Theft Auto" or even graphically violent.  I mean characters and plot development above and beyond Mario rescuing Princess Peach.  Something akin to a dramatic movie.  See Metal Gear Solid 3, Eternal Darkness, etc.

[GaimeGuy]

The only nintendo rep who seems to actually GET it, and is also willing to admit the mistakes that Nintendo has made, is Reggie.   I hope Iwata, Miyamoto, and the other higher ups get the picture too, but are remaining quiet about it.

I believe what Nintendo needs to do is not slow downtheir own production, but to get more big thirdy party exclusives.  They had the right idea with RE4, but by the time it came out, cube was already dying.

They need a big name Square Enix RPG to be exclusive for them in the first year or two of their console.

They need to diversify their development studios, have them handle completely different projects.   Traditional franchises are good, but Nintendo relies far too much on them.   They need an image makeover, and they need to open up their wallet and buy some deals.

But I think what they are trying to do is, they are afraid of not being able to compete monetarily with Sony and MS (and I suppose with good reason, too.)  So they, instead, are trying to separate themselves from Sony and MS and hope it works.

[Hostile Creation]

So Johnnyboy, the problem isn't, in fact, that not enough games are coming out.  It's that you import games a month ahead of time and beat them in two days?

I don't have money to buy a Gamecube game this month, Touch & Go being the only one I can afford at the moment, but I'm sure it would have been smart for Nintendo to release more games.  End of discussion, angst-fest over.

[Rize]

Well, this sure sparked some debate.  We should do this more often.

"While Ubisoft in another story is promoting in-game advertisement like it's a good thing?"

What's the big deal?  For game's with realistic environments making deals with advertisers (as long as they don't take the Mac and Me approach) will increase realism and/or help finance the game.

If they do take the "Mac and Me" approach, the game will be marginalized by reviewers and gamers as a peice of trash.  This isn't a problem.  It will take care of itself.  If you want to discuss this further we should probably make another thread.

[Jonnyboy117]

If I didn't import games (and I honestly don't do it that much, maybe five or six a year tops) in addition to picking up domestic releases, I'd be even more depressed about the GameCube release schedule.  Importing means you can fill up an empty month like April with a cool game like Naruto 3.  I would import less if I had more domestic releases filling up my time...but I don't, do I?  Multiply this argument times TEN for the DS.  Good lord, the Japanese lineup is so much better than what we have in the U.S.  Meteos should be here any day now!

[Hostile Creation]

I don't disagree with what Ubisoft is doing.  I liked the technique in Pikmin 2.  But I can clearly see games advertising things in loading screens and making ads painfully obvious in the future, and that's not something I ever want to see.  This is a step toward that level, you realize.
Fortunately, Nintendo will probably keep us living without loading screens forever, so I'm thankful for that.

[ShyGuy]

Five or Six imports a year isn't a lot? Wow, I seem to be coming from a totally different place as a gamer than you guys. I guess I'm a casual gamer nowadays...

[GaimeGuy]

Hostile, look at the games that have come out this year on GC:

RE4 and DK: Jungle Beat have been the only two titles that haven't sucked this year, so far.  There are NO third party titles to speak of whatsoever. Any titles the cube does get are half-assed versions that pale in comparison to those on the Xbox and Ps2.   (case in point just this year:  Splinter Cell & Timesplitters 3)

look at what MS has gotten on the Xbox this year:

Doom 3, Phantom Dust,  Splinter Cell, LEGO Star Wars.   All solid titles.    Not to mention games like Conker and Jade Empire coming out in a bit.   And the Xenon is coming out this winter, by most accounts!  

The Ps2?  They've already gotten God of War, DMC3, GT4, Dynasty Warriors 5, and Tekken 5 this year, as well as lego Star Wars and a version of Splinter CEll which is inferior to the Xbox and PC versions, but definitely superior to the GC version. The Ps2 has Katamari Damacy 2, Tales of Legendia,  Grandia 3, FFXII, and rumor has it another DQ remake coming out within the next year.

Now let's look at the Cube.   In addition to missing several quality third party offerings which are available on the Xbox, Ps2, and PC, such as Lego Star Wars, and getting the worst version of the games that DO come out on cube, including the lack of online multiplayer in every sports game and FPS released on the cube, the Cube's release lineup is VERY thin, and there aren't too many bright spots.

I'm sure that Fire Emblem and Zelda will turn out great, but they aren't coming out over here for another six months.  Geist and Killer 7 may or may not suck.   Who knows what to expect from Advance Wars?  There is a new Harvest Moon game coming out in July, and that's the only definitive buy I see for myself until the end of the summer for the cube.

No one knows what to make of Odama.  It might be polished, it might not be, but it's probably not going to last you more than a few hours (unless they pull a rabbit out of their hats).

Kirby and the new Pokemon RPG?  We don't know ANYTHING about those, and they probably won't make it out until the end of the year, at the earliest.  And to be honest, I don't look forward to Pokemon Colosseum's 2nd RPG quest, if it plays anything like the first one.

The Cube has a few games out of the, oh, about 50-60 games to be released this year that will be worth buying.  But  the other two consoles have larger lineups, better versions of the multiplatform games, and exclusives as good as the cube does.

I have about 40games for my Cube.  I love each and every one of them.  But Nintendo still dropped the ball this gen, and I can only hope that they know what they're doing with Revolution, as it seems that Microsoft is getting some serious support from Japanese developers, and no one is mentioning Nintendo in the next gen race.

[Ian Sane]

"RE4 and DK: Jungle Beat have been the only two titles that haven't sucked this year, so far. There are NO third party titles to speak of whatsoever."

RE4 is third party.  Your point is still valid though.

[Hostile Creation]

You didn't have to write an essay on it.  I clearly said I didn't keep up with Xbox and PS2, so I wasn't sure.  I didn't hear of any games worth getting.
Doom 3 and GT4 I thought came out last year, that's how bad it is

It's really sad that the industry is pretty much composed of sequels and remakes nowadays.  Franchises I can put up with, the games being extremely varied and coming out over longer spans of time (12ish Zelda games in almost twenty years is fine), but fours and fives?  Most of them released last generation?  Doom 3 is the only valid sequel on that list.

An example of the difference between franchises: Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong Country are both part of a franchise of games.  DKC 2 and 3 are as well, but they're both sequels and I could have done without.  Three especially.

[Noble~Feather]

N64 sold twice as well as GameCube? Ouch... I never knew that.

However, I do find a minor flaw. Some of you claim that it extremely unlikely for Nintendo to ever be on top again, and you use the GameCube's lack of software to back up this statement. But recently Nintendo has been very much changing their strategies. You have to realize that GameCube is still a Yamauchi branded hardware (and we all know how good of a president he was).  Revolution will be an entirely new pace for Nintendo. It's backed up by Iwata 100%. Not only that, but Ninty's been gaining very good relationships with 3rd parties (see: Square, Namco). (However, they still need to gain a better relationship with American 3rd parties, as they seem to be slowly straying away.) Not only that, but Nintendo is infact gaining new franchises AND adult-oriented games. Another Code, Jam with the Band, Geist... Iwata even said that he's developing several new franchises for the Rev. Also, Ninty's been following a new strategy of creating new gameplay. DS might not exactly be the brightest example of this, but you have to atleast give them some credit for it. We've not had a single perminent change in gameplay since the analogue, which, infact, was created by Nintendo.  And again on the subject of marketing to adults, now Nintendo has Reggie . Which brings up another minor flaw: you claim that DS only appeals to kids, when Nintendo recently showed that the age group for DS owners: 56% of them are over the age of 19. So, Nintendo is exceeding their market. And since they're doing this, they might even be able to gain the PlayStation crowd next-gen.

I just have a small feeling inside that Nintendo will rise again next generation.

[KnowsNothing]

I liked the roundtable format

this is me not commenting on what was said, I've got the rest of earth to do that for me.  over and over and over and over again.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

My outlook on Nintendo is the following: They're getting better. There's no doubting that. However, they really need to pick up the pace and get a lot better a lot faster if they want to claw their way back to the throne. Anything's possible and someone who tells you that any gaming company can NEVER do something is lying. Anything can happen. Maybe one day the R&D Team at Nintendo will come up with something truly brilliant that shuts out the competition indefinitely. Will this happen. Oh, it's so unlikely that I'd sooner win the lottery, get struck by lightning, and have alien children, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Despite the fact that Nintendo may not be on top and, at the moment, doesn't have a great outlook compared to Microsoft or Sony, it makes this fan's heart warm knowing that they ARE improving. Maybe not at the rate we'd like them to, but any improvement is better than none.

[Athlon-pv]

Jon

About the online stuff , what people dont know is that sometimes it is very hard to do it when you recieve next to nothing about it from Nintendo and or have todo the interface from scratch , working with serverside software you have no control over. I am not sure how devs dump online in GC versions but im sure that it is due to it being not that easy without it being tried and tested alike Xbox live.

That is probably why there hardly any online titles.  And or it gets sacrificed because it wouldnt effect sales (boring i know).  And stuff like PSO 1&2 just kinda sucks hard not just the monthly fee, the problem of memory card deletion and so on.

"We" gamers have a whole other look towards "online" some see it as a must have others may think it is nice , would we all use it allways all of the time , maybe not. But even if we arent using it should it be included in every game?

Maybe so i would have loved to see Super Smash Brothers Melee online and even if it is not a major selling point the feature should be so that we could either choose it for lan gaming or over the internet.

The Graphical User Interface is the most important thing it has got to be so simple (go watch a GDC xbox live online speech on ign ) that everyone can use it and gain acces to a game within roughly 30 seconds. If this isnt the case the GUI  is a problem.
I believe that if Nintendo wants to go "online" they better get all of the problems straight. There is nothing more annoying to devs and gamers when they would like to use the feature but it isnt done right.

Now would this solve all the problems ?    

[ruby_onix]

I just read the piece.

First off, I think it had a flawed foundation. IGN had another installment in their "lame doesn't describe it" series where they ask a PR schmoe one single boring question. And then you guys bitch about having to read boring PR spin. Hey, Nintendo didn't make you read that. I know I certainly didn't. I don't think IGN even made you read it. You have noone to blame but yourselves.

As the conversation spun off, it had a negative and somewhat harsh tone. I can handle negative and harsh. But some of it seemed called-for, and some of it didn't (I don't really feel like seperating the two, and commenting on them).

I think for the most part you guys were bitching. Whatever. I think you're allowed to do that every now than then. I know I do it. Ian does it, and I generally think that the people here ride him too hard about it. It doesn't help that it's not the best time to be a GameCube fan.


Also, since you asked, I think this new "roundtable" format is much easier to read and understand than that "IRC-style" format of having five people all trying to talk over each other. That old way actually got on my nerves.

[binkykazooie]

Hmmm . . . sales data and stock pricing assumes a different story about Nintendo. Acknowledged is that the corp. is always in the green and always makes a profit. Ever wonder who backs them (Panasonic mostly) or how much industry in Japan they own?

Also, why is GameCube #1 in Japan? (Oh, look, a can of worms just opened.) Nintendo has always dominated the Nipponese since 1983, and in Japan, the average gamer there wants high quality. Nintendo makes good, ignores the rest of the world, and there's the profit.

America is a second thought in the Nintendo mind. Sony and Microsoft (and Sega before them) knew that Nintendo stopped caring about the American gamer many, many moons before (back before N64's release). Didn't help that since 1997 (when Street Fighter Alpha 2 was released on SNES) that nothing has really come out to grab the gamers in America. I don't care for shooters much (not Doom type, more like Parodius type), and I hate dating sims and bad games based on anime/manga. (Yes, throw Pokemon right in there). Still, Nintendo doesn't care. In Japan, a gamer can go to 7-11 and buy a flash ROM cart for the SFC and flash a new 16-bit SNES title onto it for the price of an iTunes song. Then, while N64 bombed over there, SFC production of games increased. I believe somebody in the article mentioned about Nintendo's back up cash in GBA and such. Yup, that's how it works. Then nobody over in Japan bought a PS2 (Saturn, Dreamcast, SFC, GameCube over there). Despite the dishonest media spin (amazing what multiple trips to Japan and America can do to filter out the EGM-styled lies), PS2 was sold as a cheap DVD player. Final Fantasy has never sold well in Japan, ergo, why Nintendo didn't care when Square took off in 1997.

Now those are what's happened and where Nintendo stands since 1993 [I mean the whole article and the forum thread, not my rant up above] (the day Cruis'n USA and Killer Instinct appeared, also with Donkey Kong Country/Donkey Kong Land). This article sums up, to me, why I don't play my GameCube: it sucks. The games are boring. And cheap-feeling. Like I'm not getting the whole product compared to the PS2 or Xbox versions. Lately, it has been the Xbox versions that are feeling/playing the best. I had faith behind Nintendo, but not anymore. DS should be BS, and GBA should've been a PS1 outta the box (same freakin' processor power). In 1983, FamiCom was released with the biggest amount of RAM ever seen and the highest resolution for video. No matched till 1987, and in America in 1988, with the high-res EGA cards for PC. In 1990, again, the biggest amount of RAM for a system, the highest resolution at the time, and, just to top it off, a sound chip, if sampled properly, doing excellent sounds (remember certain tunes from certain games on SNES?). Game Boy was, for the time, great. Lotsa RAM, fast 8-bit processor, sound digitizer, stereo . . . and then . . . Virtual Boy (bought mine for $5 at Toys R Us clearance), then N64 . . . c'mon, a cart after we've humped CD-ROMs for almost 7 years by then, and 9 for the Japanese gamer!! Shame shame shame.

GameCube was a dumb idea to start with. Like N64. It's like Sega not using DVDs on Dreamcast (yeah, using GD-ROMs sure did stop piracy).

But the name of the game is to make money, and Nintendo didn't infringe on anybody's patents, and they keep selling, even with the customer dissatisfaction.

In the end, I own all (from an old Odyssey to a PSP) so I don't give a hoot in the end. Just make me some decent games PLZ!!

[PaLaDiN]

"It's bad enough when Nintendo makes excuses. I'm really tired of that. It's even worse that so many of their fans use the same lame excuses in defending them. "They make games for everyone." "Online isn't profitable." "Quality over quantity." These are corporate excuses. They aren't valid for us gamers so don't use them. Do you have stock in Nintendo? Don't have blind faith in Nintendo. They have faults and they make mistakes that you shouldn't tolerate or make excuses for."

I think you're seriously overcompensating. Those "corporate excuses", as you call them, do hold grains of truth in them that are valid for us gamers. If you can't see that, then I doubt it's us who are blind. Quality over quantity for example... my favorite game ever is Metroid Prime, so I can't disagree with that philosophy. Of course it would be nice to have both, but in my opinion none of the consoles has an absolute advantage in both... this isn't solely a Nintendo issue.

"The SNES is what made me a Nintendo fan. Why can’t Nintendo’s new consoles be at least half as good as the SNES was? I’m not asking for Nintendo to be Sony, I’m asking for them to be Nintendo."

I'm hoping you mean in terms of choice, because I love my GC and its games a lot more than I ever loved my SNES. Nintendo does need more choice, but I think a large part of why they haven't regained that choice yet is because of Sony. Sony stole away most of their third parties after Nintendo's N64 blunder... whether you want to admit it or not, Sony is pretty damn smart, and your whole complaint seems to hinge around the hope that Sony messes up badly and Nintendo regains their lion's share. I don't see how your complaint has any solution other than praying Sony screws up.

"I’m not asking for Nintendo to be Sony, I’m asking for them to be Nintendo."

The problem with that is that Sony has usurped what Nintendo used to be, at least in terms of third party support. Asking Nintendo to be old Nintendo isn't going to work unless they can first oust Sony, and to do that they have to be better than old Nintendo. I get the feeling some of you don't realize this. Being old Nintendo when they're not in power is just going to ruin them... to act like a king again they have to reascend to the throne first, so to speak. There's no magical document hidden deep in their archives that they can find and read and realize "aha, the solution to all our problems... THIS is how we used to be!"... no, they have to bide their time, invent new weapons and engines nobody has seen before and storm the castle once Sony shows any sign of weakness.

"And before everybody chimes in saying, "Well, *I* don't care about online, online is useless, Sony and Microsoft suck, NITNEDO FOR EVAR!!!1111!!""

Hehe... by "everybody" you pretty much mean just me.

"Contrary to what many of you may think, I love my GameCube. I have more games for it than any other system. My dissatisfaction comes from the fact that I am forced to buy other systems to play games that skew towards a certain audience, or to have the "best" version of a port. That's retarded. For crying out loud Nintendo, build online into your next system (which they've done, thank God) and start developing mature* titles on a consistent basis. Nintendo would demolish all competition if they could round out their product portfolio with some software that has a little edge. How about a kick-ass new franchise with adult themes and situations? Something edgy and cool? Or has that been scrapped in favor of another Mario Tennis game or Mario Party 10? <shudder>"

So let's recap. You love your gamecube but you also love some of what Sony and Microsoft are doing, which is Nintendo's fault because no other game company should be allowed to come up with anything good. You want Sony and Microsoft to lay down like good little doggies while Nintendo walks all over them and steals any good ideas they may have contributed that could possibly appeal to anybody, so that nobody has a reason to consider getting either other console. Methinks maybe you're underestimating S&M just a tad, but anyway:

None of your proposed solutions will accomplish any of what you want. Nintendo would not "demolish all competition" by matching them... I'm sorry, now you're just being blindly hopeful and unreasonable. Even if Nintendo offers EVERYTHING the other two offer, which is impossible, your idea of "demolishing all competition" is a pipe dream you're allowing to color your judgement... why should anybody get Nintendo when the other two did it first? It may be possible that Nintendo could demolish all competition... but not the way you want them to, that's just ridiculous. They have to come up with something neither Sony or Microsoft has done before that so far outweighs their respective advantages that everybody has to have Nintendo's system.

On a not so related note, I will agree that they should make a kick-ass new franchise though. That would be cool, so long as the focus is on its newness and kick-assness and not on its maturity.

[NWR_Lindy]

Athlon-pv: I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I wasn't faulting third-parties for not making online games for GameCube, I was faulting Nintendo for not supporting online development whatsoever.  Furthermore, I can't understand why Nintendo would waste the R&D time to develop and test a broadband adapter for GameCube and then literally never use it.  That's just a poor management decision as far as I'm concerned.

ruby_onix: This whole thing started as an email thread, and it eventually got so interesting that we realized we should post it.  In that sense a lot of our comments (especially mine) were candid and didn't pull any punches, but I stand by everything I said (even the "greedy bastards" comment...I think that Nintendo's greed is getting in the way of their third-party relationships, and I know I'm not the only one out there that thinks that way).  In the end I think it was worthwhile, if only for the fact that it sparked some really good debate.

silks

 

[ruby_onix]

Quote
...but I stand by everything I said (even the "greedy bastards" comment...

That was one of the "called for" moments in my book.

As was Bloodworth's observation that they'd make even more money if they had a massive userbase.

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN


"And before everybody chimes in saying, "Well, *I* don't care about online, online is useless, Sony and Microsoft suck, NITNEDO FOR EVAR!!!1111!!""

Hehe... by "everybody" you pretty much mean just me.

You are not alone, Ive found online to be dull and boring. Playing Mario Party with my little and older cousins and my brother is a million times better than playing games with "HL2_fan678" or "necromage_45", no matter how great the online game is.

Im on the side that found the roundtable too whining. It all comes down to the almost no games release in april for what I see.

Some of us are very much part of a niche group as in we only buy and play Nintendo first party titles with the rare ocassion of a third party title, and so we dont see anything terrible with only one game being released this month, but also you the people complaining  belongs to another niche. I really doubt the average gamer buys more than one game a month, and Im exaggerating, if it were so the tie ratios would be sky high, like 23:1 or something, which clearly doesnt happen.

For me its clearly a personal grudge due to Nintendo's support, but just because they dont (or cant) please you doesnt mean they are failing at their business, Nintendo's profitability alone debunks that. I know Nintendo really lacks a lot of support, but all this roundtable is basically whining about having only one game to choose in april from what I see.

I for once will probably only buy Zelda this year after I bought RE4... yes, I cant afford any more games, I really doubt any of you could stand being in my shoes now, could you? seeing you guys complaining after having so many games over the past years makes me feel kind of bad.

and I like the round table format, but to be honest I cant remember if there was another format so anyway I found this one nice

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: binkykazooie
Also, why is GameCube #1 in Japan? (Oh, look, a can of worms just opened.) Nintendo has always dominated the Nipponese since 1983, and in Japan, the average gamer there wants high quality. Nintendo makes good, ignores the rest of the world, and there's the profit.

What alien planet do you come from??? O_o  Is there some other JPN that the rest of us earthlings don't know about?

[Jonnyboy117]

The other format is IRC-like because it takes place on IRC.  :-)

I don't think most people buy more than one game per month, but many people aren't interested in the one Nintendo game per month.  You know, most of the time neither Sony nor Microsoft has more than one first-party game coming out in a month, but they also have third-party support to take care of the people who don't want the first-party games.  Sometimes Nintendo doesn't have that backup from the other publishers.  Also, many people trade in games to get new ones, which is one reason why the tie ratios aren't sky high.  There are also people who buy systems and stop buying new games for them after just a few months.  Then there are people who buy five games every month.  It all averages out.

By the way, the person complaining about third-party support for GC in 2005 is mostly right, but you did forget NBA Street V3.  Some people (not Karl) would say Fight Night Round 2, as well.

Yeah, I don't get that Japan comment either.  Nintendo is WAY behind Sony in console installed base in Japan, it's just that they're ahead of Microsoft (as is the Wonderswan Color, Game Boy Pocket, and Turbo GrafX 16).  To recap: Nintendo is in second place in Japan and third place everywhere else.  And the gap is widening, what with the release of Halo 2 last fall dramatically boosting Xbox sales (they even finished ahead of PS2 for monthly sales during the Christmas season).  Nintendo had some great games for the holidays, but none of them sold very well, other than perhaps Mario Party 6.  I know Echoes bombed pretty hard.  

[ShyGuy]

Actually, I believe the reason Xbox outsold the PS/2 in was more due to the fact the Sony had a shortage of consoles.

IIRC, the numbers were PS2 694k, Xbox 719k, and Gamecube 350k. Can anyone verify?

[Galford]

To the staff of PGC...

Great article.  Stuff like that is the reason why this is the number one
fan site for Nintendo on the Internet.

PS- Justin's daughter is now 5???

[Hostile Creation]

"It doesn't help that it's not the best time to be a GameCube fan."
Yeah, I remember ten years ago.  That was a great time to be a Gamecube fan.

So we come to the conclusion that Nintendo should be like Microsoft and Sony, except not be.  Wonderful.

Also, I like the roundtable, but this didn't merit reading (whether the opinions were valid or not, it was overdone and extremely boring).  It feels like it's forum thread and I got there late

[KnowsNothing]

YOU weren't late. Jonathan Metts, Jonathan Lindemann, Michael Cole, Justin Nation, Mike Sklens, David Trammell, and Daniel Bloodworth were late.  This WAS a forum thread and it was created two years ago.

oh sh I'm complaining about the same thing again better stop  

[Rize]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The other format is IRC-like because it takes place on IRC.  :-)

I don't think most people buy more than one game per month

I know I'm not most people, but 've bought probably 1 game a day so far this month (average).

"don't disagree with what Ubisoft is doing. I liked the technique in Pikmin 2. But I can clearly see games advertising things in loading screens and making ads painfully obvious in the future, and that's not something I ever want to see. This is a step toward that level, you realize.  Fortunately, Nintendo will probably keep us living without loading screens forever, so I'm thankful for that."

You answered your own question.  I think there will be a break through in media technology that takes everyone back to the days of no loading times (not just disciplined developers).  And until then, we have reviewers who will slam any game that advertises in an obtrusive way.

[Djunknown]

I also vote for the round-table format with my mug of beer in the air

What really hit it home for me is JonnyBoy's 3 bullet points:

"Plan A: Reduce royalties and sell so many systems that the platform looks attractive from a business standpoint.
Failure: Royalties still higher than those of competitors. System sells extremely well at launch, then falls off quickly as almost no games are released for nearly a year following the debut. No killer app strong enough to push buzz and system sales on through to the second generation of games."

PGC'ers here can say GTA and Halo suck and are overated, but that's the one-two combo that basically set the stage for this console cycle. And these two came out of nowhere. MS into console gaming? Puh-leeze. Wait, they have the best console FPS since Golden-eye? wa-who! GTA 3 stole Metal Gear Solid 2's thunder, and set the stage for the 'free-roaming me-too, have to put some some sort of free-roaming' knockoffs.

"Plan B: Woo third-parties creatively by cooperating with them on first-party titles.
Failure: Externally developed games vary in quality (from F-Zero GX to Star Fox Assault). Third-parties do not increase publishing support with their own games despite fruitful cooperations."

Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was a million seller on the 'Cube. Let's put Sonic on other consoles! Devil May Cry is a sweet action game! Let's keep it on the PS2! Viewtiful Joe is loved by the 'Cube fans? When can we get that PS2 port ready? Tales of Symphonia was a great RPG! Let's make make the next a PS2 exclusive! Get the picture?

"Plan C: Whore out Nintendo characters and other properties for use in third-party titles.
Failure: Dilutes the essence of the characters while producing minimal effect on sales of the GameCube versions (excepting Soul Calibur II). Even successful cases do not sway subsequent third-party support (see: Soul Calibur III)."

We don't know the story behind SC III, save for the commonly accepted theory that Sony gave Namco the proveribal money hat. But its just a theory. DDR is finally coming to the 'cube soon, with Mario no less. Do we really need that sort of incentive to pick up said title? Anyone have sales figures of NBA street Vol 3 and Fight Night round 2 handy? How do the 'Cube ports stand up to their online bretheren?

I've said this before, but it seems Nintendo has become the Apple of gaming. On the fringe of the mainstream, but still profitable. There's no incentive for 3rd party exclusives, and what few exclusives there are ported to the bigger user bases. The only somehat high profile games that haven't been ported that I can recall right now is RE 1 and 0; though at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they ported them in the future out of spite...

For the record, this my first console where I indulged my gaming habit as much as I could. I didn't have mommy and daddy there as penny pinchers. I have more games now than I ever did. But when I see 3rd party exclusives being ported as the norm, and not getting reciprical treatment, I get a tingly sensation that's not nice.  When a middle of the road machine gets shafted ports as a norm, that tingly sensation comes back (BG Dark Alliance, I'm looking at you...).  When  high profile games come out to PS2, Xbox, PC, but a 'Cube version is missing, that tingly sensation hurts.

Despite all that, I'm still going to get 'Cube games from now, until the big N decides to put it in console heaven. Nex-gen, I'm a free agent. All 3 major companies have an equal chance of wowing me. Nintendo no longer has my total devotion. Its going to have to re-earn it.

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo would not 'demolish all competition' by matching them... I'm sorry, now you're just being blindly hopeful and unreasonable. Even if Nintendo offers EVERYTHING the other two offer, which is impossible, your idea of 'demolishing all competition' is a pipe dream you're allowing to color your judgement... why should anybody get Nintendo when the other two did it first?"

True.  Merely being equal (which is not nearly impossible) isn't going to do it but it will help.  Sure matching everything isn't by itself going to fix everything but it will be a millions times better than being inferior.  Everything is in steps.  Nintendo can't be better than Sony or MS unless they are equal to them first.  Matching the competition is the first step.  That levels the playing field.  Then Nintendo's differences can actually be advantages instead of alternatives.  If Nintendo matched MS and Sony this gen connectivity would have been a major selling point.  Imagine the Cube with matching licencing fees for third parties, online support, demo discs, DVD playback, etc.  Imagine if Cube verisons of games like Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory or Timesplitters: Future Perfect had all of the features present in the Xbox version PLUS connectivity.  It would be hands down the best version.  That's why it's important to match the competition because it allows Nintendo to do what the competition does PLUS MORE.  Nintendo is a better developer than Sony and MS.  They design better hardware than Sony and MS.  They're more creative than Sony and MS.  They could have huge advantages over the competition if they just made sure they were competing on a level playing field.  Nintendo is like the fastest runner that always loses because they give everyone else a head start.

"Being old Nintendo when they're not in power is just going to ruin them... to act like a king again they have to reascend to the throne first, so to speak."

Nintendo definitely cannot act like old Nintendo with third parties.  That's in fact one of their problems.  But they have to be "old Nintendo" to us gamers.  The end result should be similar they just need to take a different path to get there.  At the very least Nintendo should show an effort to reach that previous position and they don't.  They humour us once in a while but it's clear they aren't really trying.  They just look at the bottom line, make sure it's in the black, and don't realize (or perhaps don't care) that some of us are not cool with a team that's trying to sell tickets but isn't trying to win the championship.

[PaLaDiN]

No matter what happens, I'm still buying the next Nintendo console next gen... although not at launch.

I tried a GC-PS2 combo this gen and I couldn't be happier. I need a GC for Nintendo games, those alone make the purchase worth it... and I need the PS2 because it's the market leader and therefore most third-parties contribute their best efforts to it. If I look at each console by itself instead of comparing it to the others, both purchases are definitely justified. Xbox... Xbox is online-centric (ugh) and the games I was considering buying it for eventually got ported to PC.

The only question I'm facing next gen is which console I'm going to buy first.

Ian, the problem with matching Sony and Microsoft is that just trying to match them will take up all of Nintendo's resources. Microsoft in particular has thrown huge amounts of money into the black hole that is Xbox... realistically speaking, if Nintendo tries to do everything that Xbox has done, they will be fighting on Microsoft's terms and will have no time to spend developing the "and more" you want. This isn't a question of alternatives versus additions... this is a question of alternatives versus conformity. The problem Nintendo faces is making a must-have alternative that eclipses the differences between them and the others.

[darknight06]

"PGC'ers here can say GTA and Halo suck and are overated, but that's the one-two combo that basically set the stage for this console cycle."

GTA didn't even get decent IMO until San Andreas, and I've played PC FPS that run all over Halo but I digress.

"Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was a million seller on the 'Cube. Let's put Sonic on other consoles! Devil May Cry is a sweet action game! Let's keep it on the PS2! Viewtiful Joe is loved by the 'Cube fans? When can we get that PS2 port ready? Tales of Symphonia was a great RPG! Let's make make the next a PS2 exclusive! Get the picture?"

This bugs the heck out of me.  Would've been different in a sense if we did get games like DMC in exchange but Noooooooooo
Now granted they did release the Cube Sonic Heroes first and from what I've seen it's probably the best version available.  Too bad it sucked, and I blame most of that on being a multiplatform game despite Renderware.   As if that ain't enough, theres the whole Mega Man Anniversary Collection conspiracy, where somehow 6 NES games, an SNES game, one 12MB and one 16MB arcade game along with a 300MB Mega Man 8 take up more space than most games this generation.  Not to mention that while I was ok with it, they played tiddly winks with the controls.

"DDR is finally coming to the 'cube soon, with Mario no less. Do we really need that sort of incentive to pick up said title?"

That's the same question I've been asking myself about this for a while too.  Why does Konami feel the need to include Mario in the game?  It's not like the game can't sell itself as long as they don't go making jacked up mixes like Extreme US and Ultramix 1.  The only way this game will be acceptable to me in this form would be if it comes out as good or better than DDR Disney Rave.  Not many songs but it was an interesting mix nonetheless.  And storage should NOT be a problem.  Extreme US was only 1.1GB.
About using Nintendo characters in 3rd party games. I loved having Link in SCII despite how bad he sucked.  He fit very well.  Now Mario and gang in NBA Street V3.  I don't have too much of a problem with it, but I could definitely see how others could feel it takes away from the game given that they don't fit all that well.  However, I got to wonder if the game would've even made it on the Cube this time had EA not been given permission to do it?  I think it wouldn't have happened.  Same with Fight Night and Super Punch Out.  About the SCIII fiasco?  I'm willing to bank on that being moneyhats.  

I'll probably try and continue this later...

[wushupants]

I think Nintendo should listen to the fans.

N'uff sed

[InfinitysEnd]

and when HASN'T Nintendo listened to it's fans!?
US: "WAhhh I want a new Metroid game!!"
N: "Let it be so."
US: "WAHHHh I want a realistic Zelda game!!!"
N: "Let it be so."
US: "WAHHHHh!!! I want online capabilities!!"
N: "Let it be so."

The only thing Nintendo's doing wrong is not making themselves "hip" enough to appeal to a mass-market.  And for all those doubters, YES, it is a GOOD thing to be appealing to a mass-market.  You get more userbase, and lo and behold *gasp* more games for your console because developers actually WANT to develop for your system since they actually think they'll make some money off of it!  Ain't that grand?

[JubJub]

Just make the Revolution worth buying as a must have console and release better-than-average non-franchised games onto other consoles. That's the future. Keep mario, and wario or whatever but give games like 1080 and Fzero a shot on the PS3 and Xbox2. Hell, they'd probably learn a thing or two about their competitors business strategies and improve as a result.

[darknight06]

Yeah, cuz that's going to REALLY help their bottom line.  Those games would bomb over there so fast your head would spin,  what the heck does Sony or Microsoft need those franchises for? I'm sorry but that's probably the most garbage crap I've heard all day.  

Nintendo's never going to be no. 1 again, I don't care what Reggie or Iwata have to say about that.  Get over it.

[Hostile Creation]

JubJub, that makes absolutely no sense.

[PaLaDiN]

"Nintendo's never going to be no. 1 again, I don't care what Reggie or Iwata have to say about that. Get over it."

What if everybody working at Sony and Microsoft suddenly died for unexplained reasons?

Just a hypothetical question.

[Athlon-pv]

That would be very bad tho my best friend works for sony .

Like i said before you can not expect a 180 degree turn from Nintendo, but somethings might change now that the new hardware of MS will be more alike the hardware of the Revolution this could be something which we will have to see at E3 (suggested announcements for next gen hardware should be there) if so then "ports" and development time of 3rd party titles might become easier .

Even tho the gamecube might be "doomed" im sure that people at Nintendo can look past the spreadsheet monkeys advice (NoE = good example of spreadsheet monkeys) and "give" more to us gamers but how much more and at what pace maybe that will endup happening in a years time and if they will have adjusted some of their "market strategy".  

[binkykazooie]

Wall Street sales data for Japanese firms trading on the Nikkei do prove Nintendo's GameCube is the #1 console in Japan.

That's financial proof. And no financial firm has ever bad-mouthed Nintendo in either America or Japan.

As for what's been said, it's too true. The best quote is that Nintendo is the Apple of gaming.  Maybe these two corps should team-up and release the nMac or the MacCube or something because, in Nintendo's case, if I'm not a Mario-freak (in the same vein as Jesus-freak), then I should move along. However, as also pointed out (by some Microsoft employees and a poster here) Nintendo's games are high quality. Don't fit totally with the Apple comparison (I think Mac software, with the exception of Office, Photoshop, and Illlustrator, suck), but yes, Nintendo is getting that attitude about it.

As for the games, let's look at the most recent release of anything:

Tekken 5 on PS2. Where is a Cube version? Even GBA got a Tekken. Oh, wait, I'm supposed to use the GB Player and, voila! I havce Tekken on the Cube. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me.

Devil May Cry 3.  A real action game that reminds me of old NES games like Castlevania. What's my alternative here? I'll have to get back to this one some other day.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. Okay, it's on Cube, but like most games on Cube, it feels cheap, and have yet to discover on-line play. Sorry, but the PS2/Xbox versions have it all over this title.

Tomb Raider (any version). Why not have a Tomb Raider on Cube? Or is it vaporware like Tomb Raider 64 (see an old EGM issue in early 1997 for one sentence from Quartermann). Regardless is the most recent game sucked, still, why no Tomb Raider?

GTA (any version). None. Nada. But I can play GTA  and GTA 2 on my GB Player. Oh, is that what Nintendo's going to say? After all, they didn't approve the prototype in late 1998 for the N64 version, and that's when the rift (yes, there is one) between Take 2 and Nintendo started.

DOOM 3. Wolfenstein. Half-Life 2. Leisure Suit Larry. Do I need to continue? These are games that have sold very well according to both EB Games and GameCrazy's in-store SKU number scans. Alas, no Cube versions. Even in the end, N64 was getting some better games (Resident Evil 2, Quake II, Tony Hawk 3), but this it stupid on Nintendo's part.

From my perspective, Nintendo should do as such:
1) 50c licensing fee per game
2) Linux or Apple Mac OS X system OS core (for easier development)
3) DVD/VCD/DivX movie playback and DVD+/-RW DL support
4) HDTV support
5) hard drive/disk with something like iTunes for downloading music
6) free online support (with ISPs like AOL, MSN, SBC)
7) Cube compatibility, use DS carts as memory cards and allow DS playback thru memcard slot
decent price point ($250 or so)
9) obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)
and 10) be nice to the retailer chains (Nintendo is the biggest bully on the planet)

Have anymore?

[Ian Sane]

"obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)"

That idea would be pretty cool.  Sega did that a lot.  Capcom classics like Strider, Ghouls 'n' Ghosts, & Final Fight CD were all made by Sega for the Genesis/Sega CD versions.  Despite their incredible failure in the 3D era Sega is actually a good act to copy.  Nintendo had a larger market share than Sony has now yet Sega managed to go head-to-head with them.  And they did it by focusing on different genres than Nintendo (ie: sports) and by providing clear alternatives to Nintendo classics to eliminate the appeal of Nintendo's exclusives.  Nintendo has Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior?  No problem because Sega has Phantasy Star.  Nintendo has Street Fighter II as an exclusive.  No problem because Sega has Eternal Champions and then later gets their own version of Street Fighter II.  Nintendo has Mario.  No problem because Sega has Sonic the Hedgehog.

Two of the biggest games this generation are GTA and Halo.  The Cube has no exclusives that are like these two games.  If Nintendo had made their own FPS that was better than Halo (not hard since Perfect Dark arguably was better) the Xbox wouldn't have had as much of an advantage.  Nintendo also could have taken the open ended approach of GTA and had a kick ass game because they're one the best developers in the world.  It didn't have to be crime oriented.  Just having an open-ended game like that could have made up for the fact that GTA is on every console BUT the Cube.  Instead we got more Mario and Pokemon spinoffs.

It's not like Nintendo is short of resources here.  If they left Mario to EAD they would have IS, Retro, NST, HAL and third parties like Camelot & Hudson free to make new stuff that fills in the gaps.  Nintendo is perfectly capable of cancelling out the competition's exclusives while still making new innovative stuff and sequels.  It's entirely their choice to make the same repetitive Mario stuff again and again.

[InfinitysEnd]

Quote
Two of the biggest games this generation are GTA and Halo.  The Cube has no exclusives that are like these two games.

Right now you can say that, but I would say the next Zelda is going to be pretty huge.  And that's one of the reasons Nintendo's making it: they have no other choice.  Of course Nintendo is way too proud to ever admit that's the case, but you can't ignore the fact that Wind Waker and the new Zelda are light years apart from each other on terms of overall scope.  I can't predict whether every kid and their MOM are going to have Zelda in their house like those other 2 games you mentioned, but I guess it's wishfull thinking...:/

[darknight06]

"obtain rights and port over third-party games (like Sega did for Master System and Sega CD, except make it better than they did)"

And now I have a question, do they really need more Twin Snakes situations?  What happened the last time they did this?  The parent company decides to do another game in the series to outdo it.  Even back then, when Sega made Ghouls and Ghosts for the Genesis, SNES was given Super Ghouls and Ghosts.  Another thing, nobody these days is going to lend out their exclusives like that to another console when you have exclusitivy contracts tied to large heaps of money.  This is part of the reason Tekken hasn't gone anywhere else except the GBA.

[Ian Sane]

"Right now you can say that, but I would say the next Zelda is going to be pretty huge."

The next Zelda is going to be pretty huge but I think it's too late for it to do much.  It will sell well but I don't think it will sell many systems.  The time to have released it was when Wind Waker came out but instead Nintendo decided to release the arty weird Zelda that had the potential to scare people off first.  Still you never know.  I don't think anyone thought Pokemon would suddenly sell Gameboys the way it did.

Zelda is a good example of an advantage Nintendo has.  Sony and MS have nothing quite like Zelda.  No one does. It's just one of those franchises that is pretty much universally respected and loved.  And no one has ever made a game that play similiar to Zelda that is even close to it quality wise.  But the choice is GTA or Zelda.  The choice should be GTA or GTA (or something comparible to it) & Zelda.  That's why cancelling out the competition's exclusives is a good strategy.  Nintendo can realistically take any genre or style of game and make it better or at worst comparably as good.  Few however can take one of Nintendo's exclusives and make it as good.  That gives Nintendo an advantage.  They can cancel out Sony's and Microsoft's exclusives pretty easily but Sony and MS can't cancel Nintendo's out as easily.  Sony and MS beat Nintendo when they have something Nintendo just plain doesn't have but the market loves.  They have yet to actually  cancel out any of Nintendo's exclusives.

[BigJim]

There are some great posts in this thread. PGC should make a new type of column to occasionally highlight reader comments.

[Jonnyboy117]

Quote
Originally posted by: darknight06
And now I have a question, do they really need more Twin Snakes situations?

Actually, Twin Snakes might have sold much better had Nintendo published it.  At least they would have tried to market it.  Unfortunately, Konami published it and just dumped it on shelves to fend for itself.  No commercials, no nothing.  Considering how well Konami's games could perform on GameCube, I think they are the single worst publisher of this generation in terms of GC support.  At least companies like Rockstar can claim that their series might not sell on GameCube.  

[Ian Sane]

I wouldn't consider the Twin Snakes as an ideal scenario because they were remaking an old game.  What Sega was doing at the time was taking current games that were on other consoles or in the arcades and made them for the Genesis.  So it would be more like Nintendo porting Metal Gear Solid 3.  There would be a major third party game that the publisher doesn't want to port so Nintendo offers to do it for them.  

[NWR_Lindy]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That's why it's important to match the competition because it allows Nintendo to do what the competition does PLUS MORE.  Nintendo is a better developer than Sony and MS.  They design better hardware than Sony and MS.  They're more creative than Sony and MS.  They could have huge advantages over the competition if they just made sure they were competing on a level playing field.  Nintendo is like the fastest runner that always loses because they give everyone else a head start.

A-friggin'-men.  This was my point exactly.

silks

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117

Actually, Twin Snakes might have sold much better had Nintendo published it.  At least they would have tried to market it.  Unfortunately, Konami published it and just dumped it on shelves to fend for itself.  No commercials, no nothing.  Considering how well Konami's games could perform on GameCube, I think they are the single worst publisher of this generation in terms of GC support.  At least companies like Rockstar can claim that their series might not sell on GameCube.

Except that there were commercials run for it.  It was Nintendo who did the commercials actually as it was part of their "Who Are You?" campaign.  It even lists Nintendo in the game's credits for marketing last I remember.  

[KDR_11k]

I still doubt Nintendo can do anything about this situation other than hope to get it right with the Rev and take second place (first place will be MS, that's inevitable).
The third parties aren't coming, the first party games can't go away (who would buy a system that has neither third party support NOR Nintendo games?). Iwata should give Sun-Tzu a read, though. More aggressive warfare will give N a larger slice of the pie and once you've gained foothold you can expand from there. Nintendo is too busy fixing holes in their walls to mount an attack. Perhaps they should try to hide their smaller weaknesses, instead of repairing them, as MS and Sony do.When MS or Sony drops the ball, nobody cares. That's a position Nintendo can't get into by defending (i.e. trying to match the competition), they must attack. They are showing signs of trying that, though. Reggie on the mind control front, the Rev on the product front. They need to work primarily on their mind control. These days your product can be a stick wih a cord attached, if you make people excited enough they will ignore any flaws in your product. Make 'em think they need it. Perhaps change or fork the Nintendo name to associate a different name and image with the Rev. Currently N has a public perception that's below zero, they could restart at zero.

[Mario]

I honestly think everyone is overblowing all these "problems" and "reasons" why the GCN hasn't performed so well at retail, I think the core problem is their marketing, the games are awesome, the commercials suck, if the commercials showed good footage from the games, the commercials would rock. I'm not saying this is the "core" problem but I do think it's a good example of it.

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These days your product can be a stick wih a cord attached, if you make people excited enough they will ignore any flaws in your product.

I agree with this too.

[Athlon-pv]

just saw on cnn that in the bizbar Nintendo raises profit est. for 2004-2005 by 17%  

[wushupants]

Sigh... When I said Nintendo should listen to the fans I didn't mean "Waahhhh!! Give us all the Nintendo-related stuff we want!" That's a very narrow way of thinking. Fans actually want more than Nintendo related stuff! Problem is... Nintendo is so greedy, they don't want any other influence from any other developers flooding the GC. If anything, their attempt at co-developing games and building relationships with other developers should be a sign of that. Instead, they should let all of those crazy Anime-based games come on over to the GC (state-side anyway) but nooooooo... they don't let them touch ground here! It's all about Mario, Pokemon, DK, Metroid and Zelda! We also want Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Inuyasha, Guilty Gear, Z.O.E., more RPG's, MARVEL VS. CAPCOM (HINT HINT!)!!!!! We actually want all that madness PS2ers have! We certainly feel left out! So many experiences we have to wish for and yet forget about simply because we are so FRICKIN' LOYAL... sigh... very frustrating. So... with that said, I can only hope and dream Nintendo will one day realize their greediness is blinding them, then come to their senses, and become powerful again... more so than before. Amen.


One more thing... I know about %200 of you will say "keep dreaming." But we all know Nintendo is truly the best and they have the talent and that spark for innovation... they just need a more open-minded strategy. Instead of creating their own little empire, they should just become part of the industry.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

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Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario".

A kick ass role playing game, have you heard of 'The Legend of Zelda"?

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Nintendo is so greedy, they don't want any other influence from any other developers flooding the GC. If anything, their attempt at co-developing games and building relationships with other developers should be a sign of that. Instead, they should let all of those crazy Anime-based games come on over to the GC (state-side anyway) but nooooooo... they don't let them touch ground here! It's all about Mario, Pokemon, DK, Metroid and Zelda! We also want Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Inuyasha, Guilty Gear, Z.O.E., more RPG's, MARVEL VS. CAPCOM (HINT HINT!)!!!!! We actually want all that madness PS2ers have! We certainly feel left out! So many experiences we have to wish for and yet forget about simply because we are so FRICKIN' LOYAL... sigh... very frustrating. So... with that said, I can only hope and dream Nintendo will one day realize their greediness is blinding them, then come to their senses, and become powerful again... more so than before. Amen.

Are you frekin kidding me "Nintendo greedy, dont want other influences from any other developers", dont you relise that some of the games that PS2 have are originaly made from Nintendo. Street fighter, Final fantasy, Doom, etc, these games where made on the snes. But I do agree with you about getting more RPG's on Nintendo.

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I honestly think everyone is overblowing all these "problems" and "reasons" why the GCN hasn't performed so well at retail, I think the core problem is their marketing, the games are awesome, the commercials suck, if the commercials showed good footage from the games, the commercials would rock. I'm not saying this is the "core" problem but I do think it's a good example of it.

Your correct, if the commercials showed a good footage then people would go and get it, I think Nintendo should start thinking about advertising the next huge hit "ZELDA" or start looking at what people are into these days.

[BigJim]

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A kick ass role playing game, have you heard of 'The Legend of Zelda"?

Could you elaborate on this Zelda of which you speak?  One big game in a genre doesn't satisfy a system for its life. I was giving examples and not referring only to Nintendo, but securing kick-ass 3rd party games as well.  

[Mario]

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Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario".

Paper Mario is a kick ass role-playing game.

[Bill Aurion]

Paper Mario kicks whoever said that's ass...

[BigJim]

Uh, again they were examples. The point made was that next time they should acquire more kick-ass 3rd party support, and avoid being pigeon-holed as the console of "star power" and "safe" games.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

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Uh, again they were examples. The point made was that next time they should acquire more kick-ass 3rd party support, and avoid being pigeon-holed as the console of "star power" and "safe" games.

Sorry BigJim, I was meaning to say 'The Legend of Zelda: four swords adventure',and yes you guys are correct that paper mario is a hardcore game and I understand where you are going BigJim with more kick-ass 3rd party support, and not being 'safe', 'starpower' games.

[Robageejammin]

When I first saw the new Blah Blah Blah title on the front page, I kinda got turned off and didnt want to get frustrated with Nintendo crapness again, so I blew it off for a while. But, to my surprise, this is one of the most intelligent and interesting discussions I have ever seen on the topic. Keep in mind, i'm the TYP, Bill, etc kinda fan. And though I usually get really angry or upset after some editorials, forum responses, and the such, I was left with a very satisfying feeling this time. There definitely wasnt any "whining" in sight. It was very well argumented and I even read almost every response @_@. I think most people would agree that it cleared up lots of misunderstanding with different gamer's perspectives and was really enjoyable.

Anyways, if this is somehow the result of this new so called roundtable style, I like it, and I'd love to see more.

Great read

[wushupants]

Thank you, thank you Robageejammin. I made it all possible.