Topic: Let's Talk Controller

[Jensen]

Maybe Revolution is a play on words (hinting at the Gyration gyroscope).  A gyroscope could be the way to add most of the advantages of a mouse without needing to be tied to a desk.   And the A and B buttons are now left and right mouse buttons!  The only way that Gyration could be really confortable is if the controller has two seperate parts...

[nemo_83]

If they use gyration then the commercials will probably use sex to sell units.

[meldavid]

Man, all I want is a left-handed controller for the GameCube and the Revolution. I think I my left thumb is more prone to RSI in my veteran gamer years and if I could just switch hands, even though it may seem awkward the first few months, I think eventually I could get used to using my right thumb for analog stick control.

[Zach]

I was thinking that the gyration stuff could be used to make a headset (with an LCD screen in it).  That would be really cool, you could move your head and the view would move with it.  I am not really sure how much something like this would cost, not to mention you would probably go cross-eyed, so it probably isnt a good idea for now, (maybe in a generation or two)

[nemo_83]

The price of the sytsem is something I'm interested in.  The cost of the console and controllers depends upon the deal Nintendo has with Gyration and how much cost of production of the gyration sensors will go down in the future.  Nintendo is conservative, I would see them spending as little money as possible on their next console due to the successive failures of the N64 and GameCube.  For them to include a helmet and two wireless controllers would be something out of the ordinary in every aspect.  If Nintendo offers virtual vr this coming generation out of the box it won't matter if the competition's console can play mp3s, burn dvds, record tv, or cost EA twenty million dollars to create Toy Story graphics in Madden.  What will make games seem realistic will be the quality of control.  Nothing could be easier to sell to gamers than the image of people playing a virtual reality game, because it is ultimately everyone's fantasy of gaming's destination.  

[Artimus]

If the Revolution isn't what I want i can honestly be happy with my DS. It's so great

[Zach]

I know what you mean nemo, Remember that commercial for the PS2 where they had an ad for the PS9 (obvioulsy looking into the future somehow).  The Add had something where it would get into your brain and make it seem like you are actually in the game; the add said that the PS2 was the beginning.  Well it was obviously fake, but a friend of mine who worked at gamestop said they actually got some calls asking about the PS9, lol.  If ninty could offer some kind of virtual reallity system (of course not quite as advanced as the one I just mentiond) it would blow Sony and Microsoft away.

[KDR_11k]

Last time they tried VR the Virtual Boy was the result. VR helmets for PCs aren't a big seller, either.

[Spak-Spang]

VR was a fad for gaming.  Remember the arcade games you would pay 5-10 dollars to play where you would walk around and hunt other players.

You don't?

Well I remember it.  It disorientated you, it was very heavy and the play mechanic was anything but intuitive.  It was pretty darn bad.

We haven't advanced enough for VR to be a functional gaming system yet...and I have my doubts if we will ever get to that point.

We will have to design a light helmet that gives true depth perception that won't disorientate the player, and be able to give truely responsive controls which feel natural.

That is alot of ifs, that will be hard to impliment.

[MODE_RED]

When we found out Nintendo may not include a D-Pad, A or B buttons on the Revolution controller, most of us have made the assumption that Nintendo must be ditching the standard controller all together for an alternative control method. Yes, two controller sticks with built-in gyroscopes are a high probability, as are some ingenious, ergonomic form of scroll-wheel selectors to replace the old Select button/D-Pad functions for most games. Speculation on built-in microphones is also well-placed, as the DS and Mario Party mics have set a high standard for Nintendo already.

Most of you have also speculated that these controller sticks would also have one analog stick each and at least two trigger/shoulder buttons each -possibly as many as four. I agree. At least one person had the idea that these controller sticks could have detachable cords and use wireless technology. I agree with this as well.


Well, I'd like to throw out some (a little over 10) improvements and additions to these well-treaded concepts...

1st, No D-Pad means missing digital control right? Not exactly. Let's say the Left Analog Stick is called the A stick, and it is locked into a neutral position by the game. Now imagine that the top of the A stick can tilt like a D-Pad... VOILA! Instant D-Pad.

2nd, No A button? Not entirely. The A stick, much like the Gamecube's comfy L and R shoulder buttons, can be pressed and clicked (and not in a cheey 8-bit light-gun sort of way). So just tap on the A Stick and VOILA! Instant A button.

3rd, No B button? Same as the 2nd idea, just tap the B Stick on the Right Controller Stick for B-button heaven.

4th, The top of each analog stick can tilt and rotate, making it easier to make circular motions with your thumbs and, in combination with the analog pressure/button click feature of these sticks, you can also manipulate on-screen action in a deeper, 3rd dimension.

5th, The game can configure the functions of these analog A and B sticks, locking or unlocking certain features of them to customize them for specific game purposes.

6th, Each whole controller stick itself has a hand strap and/or grip guard so that you do not have to grip ANYTHING to still hold the controller sticks comfortably in your hand with all buttons readily available to your fingers. This allows you to stretch your fingers and rest your hands during length play sessions.

7th, Each controller stick has force-feedback rumble in two places, one near the Analog Stick especially useful for simulating guns, and one in the grip using low-octave sound vibrations that make the whole controller stick vibrate in your hands as if it were a humming engine.

8th, **Speakers in the controller sticks can emit weapon, object and ambient sound effects to simulate the motions you are making with your hands and arms and the sounds emitted by the objects in your hands and/or your immediate environment. These sound effects can be continued by speakers/subwoofer in the Revolution console itself that are designed to emulate surround sound and also by your surround sound emulating headset/surround sound speaker system. Combined with the force feedback, these sound effects will complete the "sell" of things like guns, light sabers, baseball bats, squeeling microphones and bowling balls in your hands.**

9th, The controller sticks are aware of each other, meaning they know how far away from each other they are and whether they are above, below or beside each other. This gives you a much wider range of possible motions you can make to control the onscreen action, like crossing over your arms during gunfighting, or trying to emulate a flurry of punches from Muhammed Ali.  

10th, The controller glows in a certain spot so you can match colors to know which player is which and which controller belong to him or her.


Now if you take all the actions that regular controller buttons perform today and translate them into scroll-wheel features, motions you make with your hands and arms, or the new style analog sticks that I describe above, and add the built-in sound effects into the controller and the new "hum" vibration and gun recoil effect, all of a sudden you're having more fun playing your games than you were before and you don't need 50 bajillion buttons to do it.

~Charles Mallory, aka Mode Red, formerly of Shiny Entertainment (Enter the Matrix, I'm in the credits Special Thanks)
Email: blacknlatino@yahoo.com  

[Dirk Temporo]

I dunno about Nintendo dropping the D-Pad and the A/B buttons. I've been thinking about it, and hoping it's nothing but a rumor. I mean, the D-Pad and the A/B buttons are what made Nintendo, why would they get rid of them, especially after having them on every console to date. And this little rumor doesn't look good for backwards compatability, does it...?

[MODE_RED]

To see what I was talking about in one of the 10 improvements/additions to the Revolution controller, namely rotation of the Analog Stick, click here.

I call this "THE FLOATING ANALOG STICK".

If you haven't seen my previous post, you should check it out!  

[BlkPaladin]

The D pad isn't really a shock to me because they tried to get rid of it with the Gamecube and it was only put in as a last second revision. As for the A and B buttons, it maybe missing currently on the current "mock up" that this mag may have heard/seen of. And there are many things you can do instead that can be emulated as the a and b buttons.

The thing is that the Revolution's showing is a little ways away and anything can change between now and then.

[Stimutacs Addict]

mode red, you have described what could make the coolest first person shooter ever..  

[KDR_11k]

The rumor about the dpad, A and B buttons isn't just a rumor, it's a rumor without any form of backing and apparently from a source generally regarded as unreliable. AFAIK their editors just made it up on the spot.

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: MODE_RED
To see what I was talking about in one of the 10 improvements/additions to the Revolution controller, namely rotation of the Analog Stick, click here.

I call this "THE FLOATING ANALOG STICK".

If you haven't seen my previous post, you should check it out!

That's freaking awesome.  I think your idea about the crossing the arms is pretty intuitive.  The idea of the top of the analog stick being capable of tilting like a dpad is great, and the internal rotation is brilliant.  

I've been really curious as to what developers would use wheel technology for on the new controllers if it were built into the shoulder buttons and/or analog sticks.  The options made possible for camera controls and menu scrolling are facinating.  

I keep reading about controllers with speakers in them next generation.  I give the idea the thumbs up and wonder if they would include speakers with a VR helmet if they released one.  I would love to hear Darth Vader's breathing coming from my helmet rather than the tv.  I hope that if there are speakers built into the controller(s) then the sound will change as we tilt the controller (lightsabers).

I like the way my cel phone's buttons are illuminated and wish my console controller did that, at least when it is plugged in.  

With packaged in microphones developers could use the players voice for analog controls based on volume, note, and pitch and not just as spoken digital commands.  I don't ever want to have to say jump or shoot to do either.  Instead I want to play instruments in games by singing into the microphone.  I want to be able to have an infinite number of combos activating different comands (opening doors for example) requiring certain notes to be hit.  I want to be able to yell at an enemy and get their attention leading them into a trap while I or a friend waits around the corner.  I would like for some really ambitious voice recognition technology that masks the characters voice to everything I say along with facial animations.  I'm hoping Oddworld will bring Abe to the Revolution and DS.  

[Spak-Spang]

Mode Red:

As I look at your idea, I can't help but feel its too complicated.

Nintendo is looking for ways to make games more intuitive to play, and create a controller that feels natural, and will be instantly comfortable and accessable.  Your design really doesn't offer that at all.

The more I think about what Nintendo is thinking up the more I realize it will probably be more traditional than we think...and I am tired of trying to figure it out.  I hope this year Nintendo shows us something about this new system at E3.  I really don't care about seeing games, all I want to see is tech demos that are playable with the new control system...whatever it is.

[Hostile Creation]

It's a good idea, but it seems impractical and unnecessarily complicated.  It's nice if you're making a console that's especially designed for FPS games, but I'm not sure how it'd affect other games, offhand.  Also, it's hard to say how the stationary/moving A tap stick would work in execution.  The friction against the thumb might be more of an obstacle than a help in some games.
It looks good, but like any good design you'd need to look through it more.  Very intuitive thinking, though.

[nemo_83]

Why not put four floating analog sticks.  Depending on the game different analog sticks could run, control the character's arms, control camera, and tilt the character's torso.  In the middle of jumping you could change the function of an analog stick by clicking its digital click to be able to make the character do flips and evasive manuevers.  The floating tilt function could work together or seperately from the analog stick function.  The point is you don't have to take your thumb off of the analog stick unless your just laying it on real thick with some style.  You would be cross breeding different mechanics across the controller to do things like spins, summersaults (spelling?), rolls, dives, and quick stealth moves like peaking around corners.  I believe it simplifies things.  

[skyfire]

Quote
Originally posted by: MODE_RED
To see what I was talking about in one of the 10 improvements/additions to the Revolution controller, namely rotation of the Analog Stick, click here.

I call this "THE FLOATING ANALOG STICK".

If you haven't seen my previous post, you should check it out!

That sounds a lot like the NES MAX controller. It's d-pad was a circle within a circle too and you moved it around just like that. I've always wished for the max design to make a return, it was really my favorite NES controller.

[Noble~Feather]

Pssssssst... Revo has no controller...

Haha, just kidding, just kidding.

[nemo_83]

Yeah, unless they have defied the laws of technological advancement and are going to deliver a skull cap that recieves and sends brain waves with the Revolution there must be a controller.  I believe it was Iwata who said Nintendo will continue making controllers that work with both hands.  He said it oddly too.  A combo of controllers and gloves that support our muscles and joints as well as send sensory signals and track our hand movements would work, but gloves alone just isn't going to happen.  One needs something in their hand to hold on to and create weight.  Plus it is just way easier and cheaper to use digital or analog buttons all over the controller to track when we are sqeezing what fingers in the game.  But I've played with controllers covered in buttons and it takes some getting used to.  

[Guitar Smasher]

Ok, so I've been thinking about the Revolution's controller for quite some time, and it's recently come into my mind what the overall device would be like.  Yeah, I know we'll probably learn what it really is soon, but I'm proud of my idea.  So I'd like to present to you, my idea of what a great controller would be like:
The Dual Independent Handle Controller

Quick Summary: A controller featuring detachable handles, gyroscopic control, as well as traditionnal control support.

Features: -  (2) detachable handles including 3 gyroscopes in each.
               -  (1) primary analog stick
               -  (1) analog C-stick
               -  (1) digital D-pad
               -  (4) face buttons (A, B, X, Y)
               -  (2) Z-triggers
               -  (2) analog shoulder buttons (L/R)
               -  Start/Select buttons
               -  Wireless RF (standard)
               -  (2) rechargeable batteries

Now I must explain to you my desires for this controller.  I wanted a controller that could feature not-yet-possible control options, as well as traditionnal controls, and even GameCube-compatible controls (in the case of backwards-compatability).  Sounds pretty much impossible, right?  Well, I think I've got something that could do all of the above.  

First of all, and most importantly, is the 'not-yet-possible' aspect.  It's looking quite likely that gyroscopic control will be part of the actual controller, and I like the idea.  But I must mention that I don't think that a single controller can take proper advantage of 'motion' control.  In my opinion, that would be quite limiting.  In what game or real life action involving motion, do you keep your hands parallel, and the same distance apart?  This is why I propose two independent motion sensors - one for each hand.  Let me give a few examples how this could be well used.
1. Zelda - you could actually physically swing the handle, as if it were your sword.
2. Mario Kart - instead of pushing a button to throw a item, you could simulate throwing with a handle (just don't release).
3. FPS - move forward/backwards with primary stick; strafe (swing L/R), lean (rotate L/R), dive (swing + jump button) with left handle; aim weapon with right handle.
4. Sports Games - obvious (and for once, original).

Do you get what I'm trying to convey here?  Is this not capable of many original control options?

The next desire of mine was to retain traditionnal controls.  If you'll notice, every GameCube button is still here, and there are even more buttons to match the competion.  One feature I like, is the appication of both L/R buttons and Z-buttons on each handle.  In a better drawing, they'd be slightly offset, and I'm sure Nintendo will make them as comfortable as can be.

Now I think I should point out what Nintendo would likely drop.
- diamond pattern for face buttons - in favour of Cube layout
- select button - I don't need one, but if the comdefenestration does, then better include it
- d-pad - outdated in comparison with other features
- Z-buttons - 'too complicated'
*Note that most of these alterations are assuming no Cube-compatability.  If it is compatible, then the controls must remain pretty much the same.

Now for the toughest part, making it work.  If each handle is going to be independent, then each will need its own set of gyroscopes, and RF transmitters.  Also, each handle would have to be separately powered, since each is wireless.  And each would have to attach to the central part, for traditionnal controls.  What I suggest, is having one rechargeable battery, in each handle.   These would be charged by small 'plugs', on both sides of the central unit, which would plug into a wall socket.  This might sound slightly outrageous, but I believe it's the best way to make everything work.

Ok, so by now I hope you're thinking "this sounds super-cool, but I have a major concern: cost".  Well let me try to estimate the cost.  Please note that I'm going to use Canadian funds, since this is what I'm most familiar with.  Also note that I'm not a technology producer, and I'm only making guesses at what these components would cost, in mass production.

Base cost of standard GameCube Controller - $30
Minus $10 for Cube tech becoming more affordable
Plus $10 for two sets of gyroscopes
Plus $10 for 2 RF transmitters
Plus $10 for rechargeable batteries + hookup components (if a WaveBird can get 100 hours out of 2 AA batteries, then no need for any expensive batteries)
TOTAL COST: $50 (CDN)

My God!  FIFTY DOLLARS!  I must be crazy.  But let me tell you, I'm willing to pay this amount for this controller.  Look at what it can do.  Gaming can be infinitely more fun (exaggeration, yes), and it's ok by me, if I have to pay a bit more for it.  But hey, this is my dream.

So please, let me know what you think.  I appreciate all comments and criticisms.

[Ian Sane]

Guitar Smasher that's a pretty cool controller design.  It's incredibly innovative yet at the same time it's traditionally functional so old games can still be played on it.  It ADDS to traditional control design instead of outright changing it which is important and I fear that Nintendo will fail to take that into consideration.

I only have a few minor criticisms. First the d-pad and second analog stick are too high up.  That just doesn't look very ergonomic.  It would easy to just vertically stretch the bottom so that they're lower down.  Second I'm worried about battery usage.  I'm not sure how to solve that one though.  Finally I suggest that instead of three pieces you split the controller down the middle and have only two.  That makes one less piece to lose and you can still use the d-pad and second analog stick while doing the seperated hands thing.  

[KDR_11k]

I'd drop the center piece and add those controls to the handles, perhaps altering one button to be a coolie hat so you could have two directional controls per handle plus the triggers. I'm thinking third person shooter with dual wielding here where each handle represents a weapon that you can freely aim. Perhps add a few buttons next to the left analog stick so you can have buttons on the left handle as well.

I think there was a similar controller available for the PC once though I don't know whether it used gyros.