Topic: Wii U - e3 is over... now what?

[Caterkiller]

The CPU is weaker yes, but I high lighted certain portions for a reason. From what I gather some of you read that part and completely ignored the part about Wii U's graphical capabilities being much better. This is how Nintendos new machine works, it relies less on the CPU and more on other things.

When I look at the UE4 demo that is supposed to make the UE3 demo look like crap, they look very comparable. Do any games actually look as good as the UE3 tech demo? If that's supposed to be next gen, then the jump isn't going to be nearly as drastic as this one was, it just can't, otherwise we should be expecting Pixar level games, and that ain't happening any time soon.

[MegaByte]

I wonder how readily devs can do GPGPU programming on the Wii U right now. Havok said they don't support it, and that's the baseline middleware for the system.

[Chozo Ghost]

From what I gather some of you read that part and completely ignored the part about Wii U's graphical capabilities being much better

Graphical capabilities of the Wii U aren't being questioned. We know it can do 1080p. But this developer said the CPU is too sluggish for Dynasty Warriors. That's the issue.

[Caterkiller]

From what I gather some of you read that part and completely ignored the part about Wii U's graphical capabilities being much better

Graphical capabilities of the Wii U aren't being questioned. We know it can do 1080p. But this developer said the CPU is too sluggish for Dynasty Warriors. That's the issue.

That's for a game that was built on another system with different hardware. When games are ported it isn't just a simple matter of, this new console is more powerful so porting it will be with out issue. You've got a large circular box, the medium hexagon box can fit inside comfortably after you edge out a corner or 2. Yeah that's dumb, but that's what I think about.

[ShyGuy]

I've posted this before, but it illuminated my thoughts on ports. This is from Valve's Linux blog.

Hardware

    Intel Core i7 3930k
    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680
    32 GB RAM

Software

    Windows 7 Service Pack 1 64-bit
    Left 4 Dead 2
    Ubuntu 12.04 32-bit

We are using a 32-bit version of Linux temporarily and will run on 64-bit Linux later.
Running Left 4 Dead 2 on Windows 7 with Direct3D drivers, we get 270.6 FPS as a baseline. The data is generated from an internal test case.

When we started with Linux, the initial version we got up and running was at 6 FPS. This is typical of an initial successful port to a new platform.
Performance improvements fall into several categories:

    Modifying our game to work better with the kernel
    Modifying our game to work better with OpenGL
    Optimizing the graphics driver

An example of the first category would be changing our memory allocator to use more appropriate Linux functions. This was achieved by implementing the Source engine small block heap to work under Linux. The second category would include reducing overhead in calling OpenGL, and extending our renderer with new interfaces for better encapsulation of OpenGL and Direct3D.
The third category is especially interesting because it involves working with hardware manufacturers to identify issues in their drivers and, as a result, improving the public driver which benefits all games. Identifying driver stalls and adding multithreading support in the driver are two examples of changes that were the result of this teamwork.
After this work, Left 4 Dead 2 is running at 315 FPS on Linux.

If Valve, one of the most tech savvy companies in the industry gets only 6 frames per second (on a core i7 CPU!) from it's initial port of Left 4 Dead, It does not surprise me in the least that Koei can't get as many enemies on the screen when they port over their game.

[MrPhishfood]

Graphical capabilities of the Wii U aren't being questioned. We know it can do 1080p. But this developer said the CPU is too sluggish for Dynasty Warriors. That's the issue.

The guy also admitted that his team were unfamiliar with the CPU also they were crunching to make the launch date, could also be the game isn't as optimised as it could have been. My impression is he was trying to downplay the short comings on his end.

[tendoboy1984]

Oh great, more developers complaining about having to learn new hardware. Every console is different, and it's been like this since the dawn of the gaming industry. These developers should just get used to it.

[MrPhishfood]

Well he wasn't exactly complaining. He was asked a question about why does the Wii U version of the game have fewer enemies on screen and that's the line he came up with. He should be glad Nintendo didn't use that weirdo cell processor.

[Chozo Ghost]

Even though with the right optimizations developers can make their games work on the Wii U, isn't it still a problem that the CPU is less powerful than that of the PS360 (6 year old technology)? In practical terms it might not even be an issue, but why give any sort of ammunition for someone to criticize your system? Maybe the Wii U's CPU is good enough, and maybe with the GPGPU and RAM it is far superior to the PS360, but that doesn't change the fact the CPU by itself is still inferior to the PS360's CPU. If Nintendo had went with a better CPU then this would have been eliminated as a point of criticism.

What would it have cost Nintendo to just go with a more powerful CPU? Even if the one they chose is "good enough" in practical terms", the Sony and M$ fanboys are going to use this to talk trash about the system and laugh at it. Why give them this ammunition? Just to save a few measly dollars in manufacturing costs?

[tendoboy1984]

I highly doubt the Wii U's CPU is weaker than the Xbox 360's "Xenon" CPU. We're comparing 6 year old tech (Xbox 360) to tech that is relatively new (Wii U). The Wii U is more like an Xbox 360 x1.5, since it has a similar CPU, but the larger amount of RAM and more modern "GPGPU" make up for that deficiency.

Now the PS3's 7-core Cell processor, that was way head of its time, so there's no use comparing the Wii U to that.

[ShyGuy]

Chozo you bumbling troll!

"PS360's CPU" is an ignorant statement. Their processors are radically different and developers were having inferior results going from the 360 to PS3 until they figured out the Cell processor.

[MegaByte]

I highly doubt the Wii U's CPU is weaker than the Xbox 360's "Xenon" CPU.

I have heard this is the case from multiple sources. In particular, the number of threads seems to be lower. Overall, the system is still about 1.5x 360.

[ShyGuy]

Clock speed is only a partial factor. An Intel Core 2 running at 1.8ghz is faster than a Pentium 4 running at 3.4ghz

[MegaByte]

I'm not talking about clock btw.

[Caterkiller]

Even though with the right optimizations developers can make their games work on the Wii U, isn't it still a problem that the CPU is less powerful than that of the PS360 (6 year old technology)? In practical terms it might not even be an issue, but why give any sort of ammunition for someone to criticize your system? Maybe the Wii U's CPU is good enough, and maybe with the GPGPU and RAM it is far superior to the PS360, but that doesn't change the fact the CPU by itself is still inferior to the PS360's CPU. If Nintendo had went with a better CPU then this would have been eliminated as a point of criticism.

What would it have cost Nintendo to just go with a more powerful CPU? Even if the one they chose is "good enough" in practical terms", the Sony and M$ fanboys are going to use this to talk trash about the system and laugh at it. Why give them this ammunition? Just to save a few measly dollars in manufacturing costs?

Now ultimately for newer games, if the end result is something much better, what does it matter?

[ShyGuy]

I'm not talking about clock btw.

I was directing my message at Chozo "Wii U Fail" Ghost.

[Chozo Ghost]

I have heard this is the case from multiple sources. In particular, the number of threads seems to be lower. Overall, the system is still about 1.5x 360.

I'm not sure what threads are, but its something different than Clock speed. So what we know is that the Wii U's CPU is inferior both in clock speed and in number of threads. That's two strikes against it. Is there any thing about the Wii U's processor where it excels over the 360's processor? Or is it all inferior in every respect?

I'm not talking about clock btw.

I was directing my message at Chozo "Wii U Fail" Ghost.

You were talking to an empty chair.

[BranDonk Kong]

Lets wait until some real games come out for the console, and ignore anything that has to do with Dynasty Warriors. They've been making the same game for 11 years...

[Chozo Ghost]

Dynasty Warriors started out as a spin off of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms franchise that Koei used to make. I guess there is more of a market for a beat em up brawler game than for a kingdom managing strategy game. Its a shame though, because I was a huge fan of Koei's strategy games until they stopped making them. They sold out and went for the more profitable genres instead.

[ShyGuy]

I have heard this is the case from multiple sources. In particular, the number of threads seems to be lower. Overall, the system is still about 1.5x 360.

I'm not sure what threads are, but its something different than Clock speed. So what we know is that the Wii U's CPU is inferior both in clock speed and in number of threads. That's two strikes against it. Is there any thing about the Wii U's processor where it excels over the 360's processor? Or is it all inferior in every respect?

I was directing my message at Chozo "Wii U Fail" Ghost.

You were talking to an empty chair.

[Enner]

Dynasty Warriors started out as a spin off of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms franchise that Koei used to make. I guess there is more of a market for a beat em up brawler game than for a kingdom managing strategy game. Its a shame though, because I was a huge fan of Koei's strategy games until they stopped making them. They sold out and went for the more profitable genres instead.

They're still making them, though there have been gaps. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI (2008) is available on PC and PS2. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XII was released this year on the PC in Japan. It looks like there will be PS3 and Wii U versions ( http://thethreekingdoms.wikia.com/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms_XII ).

[ThePerm]

Wii U runs the Cryengine 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWvgETOo5ek

i dont think a developer "politically" could say Wii U can't do this whenever Nintendo shows off what Zelda/Metroid/Mario3d look like.

[Chozo Ghost]

Dynasty Warriors started out as a spin off of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms franchise that Koei used to make. I guess there is more of a market for a beat em up brawler game than for a kingdom managing strategy game. Its a shame though, because I was a huge fan of Koei's strategy games until they stopped making them. They sold out and went for the more profitable genres instead.

They're still making them, though there have been gaps. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI (2008) is available on PC and PS2. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XII was released this year on the PC in Japan. It looks like there will be PS3 and Wii U versions ( http://thethreekingdoms.wikia.com/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms_XII ).

But my problem is they don't release these games here in the west. Back in the days of the SNES they seemed to release all their games over here, but now its only once in a great while. I know I can import the game, but I can't read Japanese text or speech so for me the game would be unplayable. I just wish Koei would be like they used to be back in the good old days. Give me more Uncharted Waters, more ROTK, more Genghis Khan, and so on. I don't care about this Dynasty Warriors crap. I want to play the Dynasty, not the Dynasty Warriors.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Wii U runs the Cryengine 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWvgETOo5ek

i dont think a developer "politically" could say Wii U can't do this whenever Nintendo shows off what Zelda/Metroid/Mario3d look like.

That news is older than Eastwood.
We've known Wii u would Run cry engine 3.4 for a long while now.

[magicmilner]

I think these debates on power/graphics will continue until E3 next year....once Nintendo show off the next wave of first party titles then we will see what the machine is capable of