Topic: Episode 264: All Good Things...

[jimwood27]

I had a very similar experience to TYP regarding the N64.  I knew nothing about it before it launched (I was still busy with my NES and knew nothing about the internet) and it was playing Goldeneye at a friends birthday party right after Christmas that got me to return the PS1 my parents had surprised my brother and I with for Christmas for a 64.  Never regretted the decision and it was the beginning of gaming becoming an important part of my life.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

No love for Rocket: Robot on Wheels? I completely understand; it's a 3D platformer with emphasis on collecting things on the Nintendo 64, and thus not really in the spirit of what you were going for with this discussion. Nevertheless, I recall a fondness for that game, though whether it holds up to scrutiny now is a different matter.

Very good job with the feature overall. I wish it wasn't so difficult to get a hold of N64 cartridges, especially for a reasonable price. When I was young, I found car boot sales to be a surprisingly useful resource for used games. Not so easy any more...

[Crimm]

...considering aside from Ogre Battle 64 (which you did not mention, James, when everyone was bagging on the N64's RPGs)...

I believe it is three syllables. But, I definitely mentioned OB64 during recording. I didn't spend much time on it, just noting that I have argued in the past that it is the best N64 game released and that I had given that game enough love as it is. If it isn't in the episode it is probably because it got cut for length. It was in my list through, which I'll paste here:


Here's mine, in alphabetical order (despite numbers)



01. Banjo-Tooie
02. Conker's Bad Fur Day
03. Gauntlet Legends
04. Harvest Moon 64
05. Jet Force Gemini
06. Majora's Mask
07. Major League Baseball Featuring Ken Griffy Jr.
08. Mega Man 64
09. Milo's Astro Lanes
10. Mission Impossible
11. Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber
12. Pokemon Snap
13. Ready 2 Rumble Boxing
14. Star Wars Episode I: Battle for Naboo
15. Star Wars Episode I: Racer


Seriously, go back and listen to the retroactive, at one point I called it the best game on the N64. Show me the map of a mission, any mission (even the optional ones) and I'll tell you the best way to beat it - off the top of my head.  Even those flying bastards who like to jump out behind your stronghold are not unknown. In a way it kinda takes the piss out of the game, because it's more memorized dance than duel at this point. Only the sieges really get me worried, because everything about them is strange.

[Mop it up]

I played a decent amount of Rocket, and it was pretty good. The best thing about the game is the physics, which are surprisingly fluid. I hope to finish the game up... someday...

I got Quest 64 around launch and sold it after I beat it. It wasn't that it was bad, more that I'd rather put that money towards a multiplayer game. The collector in me regrets that since I now have the game again but no box or manual, but it was a good decision for the time.

I find it funny how Aidyn Chronicles feels like a sequel to Quest 64 even though it isn't related in any way. It uses a similar battle system to Quest 64, except with actual party members and other expansions that make it more engaging. Unfortunately, the game still has a myriad of problems, usually in the form of glitches. The main one is that party members can't be revived, although the item that was intended to serve this purpose is still in the game, except it's now an extremely expensive item with no use. This is especially a problem in the first parts of the game before your characters grow strong, and losing a member pretty much means you have to reload your save or else it would be very difficult to continue, and I think the story would also be a little different without most characters.

Like Broodwars, I've also beaten the game and got some enjoyment out of it. I think the key with it is that it's refreshingly different from the typical PlayStation RPG, which tend to have pre-rendered graphics and static battle scenes. So despite its issues, it was still nice to play an RPG that's fully 3D, in both graphics and gameplay. Most of its conventions have probably been topped by more recent RPGs, I wouldn't know, but the game still has some merits.

[broodwars]

For me, I think what made Aidyn Chronicles appeal to me was that there was so much exploration and the Western-style character development (where you allocate points to certain stats and schools of magic) was really new and interesting to me.  There really aren't any other games on the N64 like it, though Quest 64 is close in battle mechanics.  It's a pity that the game really did look like crap, and it has such a steep learning curve at the beginning.  And yeah, I got lost in that g-damn castle at the beginning for at least an hour just like everyone else.

[Crimm]

Every person I've ever met hates the hell out of that castle. It is resounding failure of usability testing.

[gojira]

I love the N64.  I wasn't necessarily going to buy it day one.  Embarrassingly I had actually planned on waiting until Crusin' USA came out and I buy it then with a wheel peripheral for that awesome arcade experience.  That was until I got a videotape from Nintendo Power showing Super Mario 64, Pilotwings 64 and Shadows of the Empire (plus a teaser reel at the end).  Mario especially sold me and I had to get the system right away. 

I didn't have a real job at the time (I was 16 when the system came out).  I don't remember exactly how I got the money (mowing lawns, borrow some, other odd jobs) but I had enough at launch.  But I couldn't find a system for a couple of weeks.  I was able to get Mario right away so I had the game before the system and that was kinda weird. 

Even though the N64 wasn't able to fill all my gaming needs (I had to get a PS1 eventually), it was still a great system for me.  My library of N64 games is one of my largest (larger than my SNES, DS and any non-Nintendo system).  And honestly I don't really own any bad games either.  I think it gets more crap than it deserves because many people remember it as the system that sent people defecting from Nintendo.  And those defectors maybe didn't play many of the great games that did come out on the system.

And a few games I wanted to mention that weren't talked about on the podcast.  One of my favorite games was Extreme-G.  It wasn't particularly difficult, but it looked great and had awesome music.  Killer Instinct Gold was mentioned, but not talked about.  The music alone was great (love Orchid's song).  It was one of the few fighting games I enjoy and had a lot of fun mastering the combos.

The last games I'll mention are some racers.  There's the Top Gear games (I was a big fan of the Rally ones).  There's also World Driver Championship.  Which looked great and was really engrossing.  It was kinda mentioned in the same breath as Gran Turismo.  It was certainly the closest thing the N64 had to GT, but it wasn't about car porn.  It just had good graphics and good racing.

[Crimm]

I actually spoke of the SNES Top Gear about a year ago during one of the live Radio Trivia games, and later on a few RFNs. It has a neat little bug that lets you get the points for first and second place if you hit the finishline marker just right and bounce back over the line (thereby crossing the line twice, and getting the points for both positions).

[ejamer]

N64 didn't have the biggest library and was sorely lacking in quality sports and RPG titles, but will always hold a special place in my heart for the multiplayer madness it generated. Mario Party, Smash Bros, GoldenEye, BattleTanx, Tetris and Guantlet were some of our most played games and great time-wasters during my university years.


Not saying that single player was a miss - landmark titles like Banjo-Kazooie, both Zelda games, Rogue Squadron, and Star Fox 64 are still considered classics for good reason. But the N64 was really about spending quality gaming time with friends for me.

[Ceric]

Its a shame Nintendo did take the next logical step from the N64 to the Cube and have built in Online capability and support.

[Traveller]

Podracer is an excellent title! The way the pods felt were great and made it feel like you were actually piloting the same thing that you saw in the movie.


I got the N64 in late 99, and it came with Podracer and Zelda Oot. I mainly wanted it for Podracer, and played that first. But when I got around to popping in Zelda, I was absolutely blown away. It was a massive awakening to how good games could be. Up until that point I only had a Megadrive and later a Gameboy for Pokemon, the experience with the N64 pretty much instantly made me a big Nintendo fan!


Btw I think this retrospective was the best N64 one we have had on the site!

[Crimm]

Btw I think this retrospective was the best N64 one we have had on the site!

Good thing we dropped the dead weight.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

With all the great N64 platformers discussed, I was slightly disappointed that Rocket:Robot on Wheels didn't get an honorable mention. It was one of those unique 3rd party releases that seemingly came out of nowhere, especially when I'd already filled my quota with more than enough platformers; it really was the flagship console for that particular genre. Now, Tonic Trouble....


Also, I gotta give it to Michael TYP for mentioning Quest 64 without scornful derision  - it may be incredibly flawed, but until this day, it remains to be one of my favorite game soundtracks; a Radio Trivia, perhaps? Although, i'm afraid I'd be the only one who would listen to it.  Oh well, i'll amuse myself by humming the Isle of Skye theme with a hint of nostalgia.

I always wanted to try Rocket, but never had the chance/monies when it came out. And I'm glad to hear there are some others who think fondly of Quest 64! Also, Quest 64 was on Radio Trivia long, long ago. Check out Episode 10!

[lolmonade]

I may have missed it, but did anyone mention any of the Bomberman 64 games?  Always had a ton of fun playing those.

My first experience with an N64 was a display system at Electronics Boutique showing Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.  I was blown away with the way it looked, but because of my little kid status, had no resources to get the system.  I went to my cousin's house several times a year just to covertly play LOZ:OOT, WCW vs NWO, MarioKart, and Goldeneye.

Through other friends later I would be introduced to some other favorites like Smash Bros, Mario Golf, Perfect Dark.

[abe]

for the past 4 years I have been listening to around 10-15 videogame podcasts a week and I can honestly say this one has been the best one yet!

[Traveller]

Btw I think this retrospective was the best N64 one we have had on the site!

Good thing we dropped the dead weight.

Haha

[NWR_Lindy]

@lolmonade Bomberman 64 was on my list.  I love that game.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Another stellar show.  The RFN crew is such a great combination of passion, knowledge and humor.  It's essentially the Triforce of podcasting....

My responses to the episode...
1. I did not own an N64 until my girlfriend (now wife) moved in with me.  I distinctly remember looking at the PS1 and the N64 and ultimately it came down to upcoming games like FF7 (still my favorite game of all tiiiiiiime) and Street Fighter Alpha 2.

2a. Given the PS3 and PSPGo, I don't think this industry has moved beyond the "hubris" discussed in this episode.

2b. We are also not beyond letting buzz-words dictate perceptions of quality.  "HD," "1080p" and now "3D" are the new versions.

3. The N64 controller has to be my vote for worst controller ever.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I applaud the genius attempt at catering to both 2D and 3D gaming.  However, the "three prong" design just made for such an awkward experience.  Especially since it seems I'm not alone in almost exclusively using an asymmetrical middle+right prong grip.

4.  I remember a night in high school when I was hanging out with three girls and they suddenly were like "there's four of us! we should play smash bros!" and I was like "...what bros?" - I can't say I really knew what was going on or that I enjoyed even it (didn't get in to Smash until Brawl).  However, spending a high school evening in a finished basement with three girls playing video games? Thanks, Nintendo.

5. Battletoads will probably always be the pinnacle of my Rare gaming in my experience ^_^

6. Per TYP's point, I loved the era/concept of buying a game and playing it 'til you knew every part inside and out.  Now I find myself devouring games and merely "playing through" them.  Granted, I always go for 100%, but it just feels so much more "on to the next one" now.  I know there are factors like my ability to attain more than a few games a year.  But I also think the industry has tried to become more rapidly consumable, forgettable, and ultimately disposable.  And that's not good.  Back in the day, it was about owning a game and playing it whenever you felt like you wanted that experience.  Modern gaming feels more like a push towards "OK, the experience for August 2011 is Game X. In September we are releasing Game X: The Expansion Pack so you will be playing that.  After you complete these, you will never play them again because you will trade them in to buy Game Y.  After all, we are shutting down the DLC/servers in December so.... you won't want them anyway!!"

I got FF1 on my 13th birthday.  I beat it on the morning of my 14th birthday.  And damn it, at the time, that felt like a good, enjoyable, money-worth-getting pace.  If I wanted, I could start playing the entire game again today.  Will the DLC-riddled games of this era be able to say that in 15+ years?

[NWR_Lindy]

As the for the industry being more "disposable" than ever, I would agree that on the marketing side there's much more media push to buy buy buy.  But on the game side? Hell no.  In fact, the trend is exactly towards the opposite end of the spectrum.  Devs/Pubs are doing all they can to keep you playing their games as long as possible now; it's just that with social media and the internet, you know EVERYTHING about EVERY GAME coming out ALL THE TIME.

With games like Skyrim (probably 100+ hours of playtime), Skyward Sword (probably 50+ hours of playtime), Uncharted 3 (single-player game that has a quality multiplayer tacked on just to keep you playing it), Modern Warfare 3 (deep multiplayer along with Call of Duty Elite community features to drag you in even more),  Halo Anniversary (deep multiplayer that ties in to Halo Waypoint for stat tracking), and more coming out this holiday season, I'd say no, the trend is not towards the games themselves being more disposable.

The trend is towards GAMERS disposing of games more quickly, and developers trying to counteract that.

[famicomplicated]

The first time I played an N64 was in a HMV, they'd imported one from Japan, which is a little odd now I think about it now, I remember just being dumbstruck at how Mario 64 looked and played.
It was only a short 9 months later till I could play it in the UK! (and a further 7 months till I got one for my birthday)

@ Greg - VERY happy to hear someone lay praise on Blast Corps, my first game on N64 and still one of my favourites. It also saddens me that there is no other way to play this game. I'm assuming M$ have the rights to it.
I was surprised however that you didn't give NoE a bit of stick when Paper Mario was brought up - it never came out in the UK if you remember! ("screw 'em they never play Mario RPG anyways", was probably the thinking there)
As for Shadowman, I followed the 10-month long preview features in ONM, I was foaming at the mouth by the time it came out and got a 90%+ score ("It's like a dark Zelda", was the quote that sold me)...BUT, somehow I couldn't get into it and barely got 20% through it, it somehow didn't click for me.
Diddy Kong Racing - I also owned this over Mario Kart 64 (my mate had that, so I was covered) and finished the single player twice (mirror mode) and beat every TT time trial ghost, a lot of hidden techniques in that game.



@Lindy - I know you dumped all over 1080 Snowboarding back when you played it on VC, but I still think it holds up in terms of controls. Much like Wave Race where you control the character rather than the board/jetski, makes it play so well. It'd be in my top 15.
The only other sports game I owned (other than Mario Tennis) was ISS 98, one of the best and most fun football games around. I don't think it got released in NA though?


@Joneszy - Pod Racer - hell yeah! I loved that game, I even got good with the dual-controller setup, which in turn helped me for playing the arcade game which I put one too many £1 coins into...
Jet Force Gemini was so awesome too, I dont think you guys mentioned the co-op mode, which was basically the "girlfriend-mode" from Mario Galaxy. Another game with forced mutliplayer split screen that didn't need it!
Mission: Impossible - yikes, I bought this too, it is "broken" in so many ways, mostly the controls and graphics, but as a huge fan of the movie, I loved every minute of it!


Also, glad to hear talk about the not-so-obvious N64 hits.
It's funny talking about the gaming drought it had though, as it never affected me. I reached an age where I could get a decent job near the end of the N64's life, so I went mental with game purchases.
I had about 6 driving games, and a total of about 25 games in the end!


Thanks for bringing back memories, some of them good, others traumatising!

[Mop it up]

The only other sports game I owned (other than Mario Tennis) was ISS 98, one of the best and most fun football games around. I don't think it got released in NA though?

It was released in NA. I can confirm this because I own it.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Lindy-

I totally see what your saying and I both completely agree and also disagree (magic!).  Here's how...

I think you are completely right that the length/content of (most) games is increasing to all-time highs.  I also agree that the concept of burning through games is driven largely by, as you said, knowing about every new game and the marketing push to play them.

All true and well said.

The disagreement is perhaps in a difference of how we are each treating the term "disposable."  Certain (downloadable?) games might be so "bite-sized" that they never even really ask the user to get attached to/invested in them.  However, for all other games, the philosophy USED TO BE that the industry was selling you something whose value did not have a built-in time limit.  I could pop most games from previous generations into their respective systems and know I was getting the full experience I originally signed up for.  It is mine. I paid for it. I own "the experience."

These days? A lot of games being sold are really extended rentals.  What happens to that value when the "extra map pack/new final boss" version hits in a few months? When the DLC is no longer available? When the servers go offline? When the online anti-piracy verification goes offline?

Bad things, man, bad things (veiled Bruce Smith reference should Greg be reading).

Disclaimers:
A) This is not about whether or not one "gets their money's worth."  We are getting plenty of bang for our buck and I'm not making any statement otherwise.  It's more about ownership and good faith in a product.  After all, it's not like we can ask for our money back when the game no longer plays like the day we bought it, right??

Though that would be pretty bad-ass to try.  "Hello, Bethesda? Yea, I have Fallout 3 on a new system but you stopped offering the add-on packs for download.  Can you reimburse me for those? Thnx! Luv ya!"

B) I am aware that a handful of old games like Street Fighter II had 18 iterations which made each previous version obsolete.  Those are called exceptions.  I know internet discussion rely heavily on exceptions to counter points which, logic would dictate, were not dependent upon being complete tautologies.

These days, however, most every ""AAA"" title has some sort of after-initial-purchase purchase to gum up the works.

I s'pose that's a big reason why, this generation, Nintendo became my favorite company for the first time since the NES.  Ain't never gonna see "Super Mario Galaxy 2: Undead Nightmare."

[NWR_Lindy]

Yeah, you're right about the whole "this game works until they take the servers down" deal.  Console owners up to this point have been insulated from this phenomenon, unlike over on the PC side where they've been dealing with it for years (Tabula Rasa, Star Wars Galaxies, Hellgate: London, etc. - all MMOs, but it's the same problem). 

Some developers have circumvented this by allowing gamers to set up and run their own servers, or people hack the code to allow them to set up servers, but of course console gamers can't do this as the consoles are closed systems.  So yes, in terms of online play games definitely have an expiry date.  For example, Atlus just decided to continue with online server support for Demon's Souls into 2012, which makes me happy but at the same time kind of sad; it means that at some point, I won't see people's ghosts running through the game world, and won't be able to re-enact their deaths via bloodstains, which really sucks.

[adadad]

I was surprised however that you didn't give NoE a bit of stick when Paper Mario was brought up - it never came out in the UK if you remember! ("screw 'em they never play Mario RPG anyways", was probably the thinking there)

Sorry, I don't believe this is true - I'm a UK gamer (and UK only, unlike Greg), and I played the hell out of the first Paper Mario. Maybe you're getting confused and there was simply a large delay?

[Chocobo_Rider]

Lindy-

Word to that, brotha.

Perhaps someday the industry/consumer will find some middle-ground on this...?

For instance, policies where the server control becomes public or something??? That'd be pretty neat.  I know I played Phantasy Star Online for the first time ever about 2 years ago.  It was cool.