Topic: The 2DS Effect on Game Design (?)

[EJtheK]

Hey all,

I'm curious to hear the communities reaction to a thought I had...

We all know that the best way to get game developers to leverage creative hardware innovations in a fundamental and creative way is to make sure everyone who plays the game has the required hardware.

I loved the GBA-GCN connectivity (I am a massive Four Swords Adventures fan who was lucky enough to have 3 friends to play with at the time), but almost no one used it in game design (at least in a necessary, integral way).    Why?  Because if you made it integral/fundamental/required, you limited your market right off the bat to those who had the setup.

This is why I understand the requirement to have Kinect with Xbox One.  They're taking one out of Nintendo's book (see the Wii, the Wii U, etc.).

So here's my question and concern...  Will no one ever use 3D effects as an integral part of game design now that the 2DS exists? 

I'm not sure many games have truly leveraged it in super fundamental ways yet (am I missing anything?).  Perhaps this problem already existed since little kids aren't supposed to use 3D.  But I still wonder...

I thought Super Mario 3D Land was cleverly designed with 3D.  It wasn't required, but it certainly helped and provided a test-bed from some very interesting platforming ideas.  I actually find myself missing the 3D effect when I play other 3D Mario games now...  I loved seeing where I'd land, I loved hidden nooks, I loved 'in-and-out-of-the-screen' platforming, etc.  While it wasn't integral to the point of being required, it did make me wonder whether there were some great ideas to come.  Are those dead?  Maybe they were never coming...

Just a thought...  Anyone else?

[MegaByte]

FWIW, from the very beginning, Nintendo mandated that 3D games could still be played in 2D, so designs always had to take that into account. The 2DS is targeted at a specific market, so I don't think it will affect design decisions for the overall platform much.

[lolmonade]

What games besides Super Mario 3D Land used the 3D effect in a compelling way?
 
I'm not being bombastic, I'm seriously curious.  I own a dozen different 3DS games, and I really don't see Nintendo, much less 3rd party developers using it in a way that makes it that big of a value add.
 
If anything, I see the 2DS as Nintendo's partial admission that 3D, while a nice feature, hasn't turned out to be the linchpin of success to the 3DS.  Frankly, now that the novelty has worn off and my eyes have gotten accustomed to the 3D, I find it distracting in several games I play. 

[Ian Sane]

There was always the issue that some people can't see the 3D effect the 3DS provides so making a game that required it wasn't really possible.  I think that's really what made the feature less of a selling point than Nintendo hoped - it could only be used to enhance the experience and not be an essential element.

Though if the 2DS really takes off I could see devs getting lazier about the 3D effects in their games, putting less effort into it than they would have before.  If Nintendo didn't mandate it (and they probably do) I could see games not even bothering to have it.

[EJtheK]

FWIW, from the very beginning, Nintendo mandated that 3D games could still be played in 2D, so designs always had to take that into account.

I think that confirms my thought that maybe they were never coming.  It's not surprising, but perhaps the door wasn't open for this anyway.

What games besides Super Mario 3D Land used the 3D effect in a compelling way?
 
I'm not being bombastic, I'm seriously curious.  I own a dozen different 3DS games, and I really don't see Nintendo, much less 3rd party developers using it in a way that makes it that big of a value add.

Unfortunately, nothing really uses it in a fundamental, core way IMHO.  However, there are some unique uses that led me to believe something interesting could be achieved that required it.  Here are some games that come to my mind as using 3D well (or at least integrated to a point where it aided/improved gameplay IMO)...

Super Mario 3D Land

Pushmo/Crashmo

Ketzal's Corridors

Also, I rather liked the 3D effect addition in Kid Icarus: Uprising.  Although not especially interesting, it improved my enjoyment of the game.

I'm quite partial to the effect, but I understand people's 'meh' attitude towards it as well.

I just had my hopes up (being a fan of the effect) that some really interesting things could be done.  Perhaps they already have in the things I named anyway.  And, based on what MegaByte shared, it probably was never happening anyway.

There was always the issue that some people can't see the 3D effect the 3DS provides so making a game that required it wasn't really possible.  I think that's really what made the feature less of a selling point than Nintendo hoped - it could only be used to enhance the experience and not be an essential element.

Though if the 2DS really takes off I could see devs getting lazier about the 3D effects in their games, putting less effort into it than they would have before.  If Nintendo didn't mandate it (and they probably do) I could see games not even bothering to have it.

All good points.

Thanks for the thoughts, all! 

[Khushrenada]

The same thing could be said about 3D movies though. There are very, very few movies where the 3D effects really did much to add to the experience.

In fact, I'd only say three movies are must see in 3D on a big screen.

Life of Pi
Avatar
Hugo

And that is best to worst in effectiveness of 3D.

Likewise, I'd agree that 3D hasn't really created anything revolutionary in gaming and only more of an enhancement to the experience. However, I would argue that the 3D effect works better in gmaing than in a movie because of the way you are more free to move around your environment creating a much smoother flow unlike a move which will cut from scene to scene with the effect changing due to the image displayed.

Personally, I loved the 3D effect in Pilotwings Resort. I'd turn it off and it actually would hurt my eyes because they had gotten used to the 3d effect and it seemed harder to suddenly hit the checkpoints and markers so the depth seemed to help make it a lot easier to judge the 3D space. I really thought the 3D effect was a benefit in that game.

Super Mario 3D Land demonstrated some amusing tricks that can be done with 3D but I don't see how it did anything super special with it.

I thought the cinematics in Rhythm Thief really popped out and benefited from the 3D effect.

I need to get playing Mario Kart 7. Bought it a year ago and still haven't cracked it open. But when I first had my 3DS and would trailers of games like Ridge Racer and Mario Kart, I think the 3D effect would really be great in racing games and enhance those visuals.

All in all, I'm onboard with more 3D gaming. It might not do much with a 2D game like NSMB2 but for any 3D games like flying, racing, platforming, etc, I think it's the best way to play those games.

[lolmonade]

Khushrenada, I'm not neccesarily saying it's a worthless endeavor to have 3D capability.  I'm simply saying in the time the 3DS has been out, there have been so few applications of 3D that do more than trick your eyes into seeing depth, that I don't see it as a great loss in the 2DS model.
 
The 3D movie analogy is a good one, simply because of how underwhelming the application of it has been in Movies as well (I've only seen Avatar out of the list you provided, but i'd agree the 3D is impressive, if one of the few good things about the movie).
 
In the end, I think the answer is that the 2DS isn't going to have a great affect on game design, if only because developers haven't been using it as a core focus in their game design up to this point.

[toddra]

But 3D was always a fad all along and it is just now starting to become apparent. 3D tv sets are not selling like they were expected too, content in 3D is not happening in the numbers required to foster adoption, and now this only goes to show that as a society maybe we just weren't as enthusiastic about 3D as the industry had hoped. I was never interested in 3D in the first place, I have only seen three movies in 3D and two of them I really had to rewatch in 2D because the 3d effect was distracting and the other was just Jurassic Park and the 3D was not done well at all on that one. As for gaming, I do tend to agree that as a whole if 3D ever had any usefulness it was in video games. It especially was useless for sports so I was no surprised ESPN 3D failed.

[lolmonade]

But 3D was always a fad all along and it is just now starting to become apparent. 3D tv sets are not selling like they were expected too, content in 3D is not happening in the numbers required to foster adoption, and now this only goes to show that as a society maybe we just weren't as enthusiastic about 3D as the industry had hoped. I was never interested in 3D in the first place, I have only seen three movies in 3D and two of them I really had to rewatch in 2D because the 3d effect was distracting and the other was just Jurassic Park and the 3D was not done well at all on that one. As for gaming, I do tend to agree that as a whole if 3D ever had any usefulness it was in video games. It especially was useless for sports so I was no surprised ESPN 3D failed.

I don't prefer 3D to leave entirely.  I think there's a place for it, but I'm sure Nintendo is finding out through surveys and such that it's not the central selling point for their system at this point.

[EJtheK]

As for gaming, I do tend to agree that as a whole if 3D ever had any usefulness it was in video games. It especially was useless for sports so I was no surprised ESPN 3D failed.

I wholly agree with your statements on movies and television.  3D is 'meh' in a ton of cases.  I also wholly agree with your sentiment on games, though, which is why I wanted to see where the discussion on this went.  If 3D has usefulness, it could be in games.  It really improved the Super Mario 3D Land experience for me.  Sure, on a 2D screen you can gauge a 3D space with shadows, perspectives, and the conventions & cues we've subconsciously learned over the years of '3D' gaming, but the addition of 3D vision helps a lot.  The diorama-effect helped with platforming and opened up some interesting sequences involving vertical in-and-out of the screen platforming.  It wasn't necessary, but it added for me.  While it seemed subtle, I miss it when I play other traditional '3D' platformers now.  It made me believe more could be done with this.

As another example...  Pushmo can be played with the 3D off, but it is legitimately harder to do so (IMO).  What's cool is that non-gamers didn't have to know 3D-gaming conventions to understand how the 3D space your character was in worked.  The effect took care of everything.  As gamers, we often forget how many conventions we've subconsciously absorbed.

This all simply made me wonder if there was more to come.  ...if there were more ideas to be realized...

Not to mention, if we talk about 3D TV and 3D movies vs. 3D gaming on the 3DS, glasses-less 3D was a delight to experience!  I hate wearing 3D glasses.  Not only that, I get headaches in 3D movies because the 3D is always slightly out of focus for me.  With the 3DS, I have no glasses, AND I can tweak the effect just enough to find a sweet spot for focus.  Props to Nintendo for this innovation!  It works so well, that it's just taken for granted as a cheap trick.  Often, the best innovations and technological achievements are those that seem easy and simple like this.  I'm an engineer, and we're always talking about this at work: you know you did a good job on a design when it's simply taken for granted by most.

Just some thoughts.

[EJtheK]

BTW, thanks for contributing, all! 

[Pixelated Pixies]

I think stereoscopic 3D had the potential for some interesting gameplay, but no developer took up the challenge.
 
I appreciate that not everyone can see 3D and that it can cause eye strain for some, but as someone who really likes how the 3DS presents 3D images I always hoped that more would be done to utilise it in a meaningful way.
 
I guess the unveiling of the 2DS stands as proof (if any were necessary) that 3D is not a selling point for the system and will never be a focus for Nintendo.

[UncleBob]

I can name a game that makes good use of 3D... except that the hardware just isn't powerful enough to make it work as well as it should. Oh, and it's not a 3DS title.

Looksley's Line Up.

The game was a ton of fun and I had hoped they'd make some kind of 3DS Sequel that combined the face tracking with the actual 3DS to make for a really neat game.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Based on some of the comments I've read here I decided to pop 3D Land in to my 3DS and play around with the slider, just to see if the 3D in that game is as crucial as I remember it being.
 
It totally is. That game loses a lot by playing it in 2D. The jumps become less accurate, the visuals becomes less impressive and the sense of occupying a 3D space is greatly diminished.

[Fatty The Hutt]

I can still remember the "wow" I felt when Nintendo announced they were doing 3D without glasses. That feeling paled to the "Holy Crap, They Really Did It!" amazement I had when I finally tested out my 3DS on launch day. That amazement has dulled a bit considering I experience the effect pretty much daily through use of my 3DS, but it's still hella-cool.


I think it does enhance gameplay. 3D Land and Pilotwings demonstrate this well, among other titles. I even like the 3D conversions of old games, like Kirby's Adventure, and wish there were more. It is also not crucial. It is an enhancement. I can see why the 2DS is being released and I think it is neat looking but it is definitely not for me. I like my glasses-free 3D.


I do wish the promise of 3D movies being released for the system had been realized. Anyone remember that Green Lantern trailer? I wonder why this was never a thing? I would have gladly paid some $$ for a 3D digital copy, or access to 3D streaming, of some Hollywood "summer blockbuster" 3D movies when they were released on DVD and Blu Ray.

[toddra]

What about Netflix doesn't the 3DS support Netflix and they support 3D?

[Fatty The Hutt]

What about Netflix doesn't the 3DS support Netflix and they support 3D?

I dunno. 3DS does indeed have Netflix but I have never heard that 1. Netflix streams in 3D nor 2. the 3DS would support such streaming if it were available.


If only someone with fact-sourcing skills were available and not-banned that could help us out 

[toddra]

or if you have a 3DS already you can just you know log in and see?

[Oblivion]

Or you could, you know, use Google and figure it out yourself. It takes literally five seconds to type it into your search bar and find out for yourself.

[nickmitch]

Netflix does not have 3D content.

[toddra]

Really? Because the very first search I did on goolge says Netflix DOES have 3D.

[Oblivion]

But the 3DS does not support that.

[nickmitch]

Sorry, when the 3DS (and eventual app) launched, I believe that was the case. That has apparently changed. However, I believe the situation then, as it should remain now, is that 3D movies are a different format from what plays on the 3DS.

[Ceric]

Netflix SuperHD does 3D but the caveat being your internet provider needs to ok it.  Most do not.

[pokepal148]

the 3D effect is just plain distracting to me in many games. one of the worst offenders in that regard is actually 3d land. for me it just works better in slower paced games (and starfox for whatever reason)

but I don't think it really has made a major impact on game design.