Topic: PlayStation 3 will use Blue-Ray discs

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

SUPER NEWS FLASH

Gamespot reports Sony have confirmed that the PlayStation 3 will use Blue-Ray discs as the game medium.

I'm not sure if this is good.  DVD technology hasn't been around for that long, and I don't think customers want another medium to replace their beloved DVDs too early.  And secondly, do games really need 25GB of data storage?  How many PS2/Xbox games take up a full DVD disc?

I shudder at the thought of a FF game starting off with an opening cutscene running for 2 hours.

[odifiend]

Doesn't this push PS3 launch back considerably?  Xenon launches too early, PS3 will likely launch too late and hopefully the Revolution will be just right.  I agree with you, AiAi, that I don't see people throwing themselves on board the BD-ROM boat.  Not only do PS2/ Xbox games barely take up a full DVD, Movies with unnecessary amounts of extras and previews don't usually come with more than two discs.  So that is 9.4 GB standard right now for DVD movies.  What do we need more for?  And god forbid BD-ROM players not be backward compatible.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The Blu-Ray players are fully compatible with the old DVD standard, so putting the new drive in will not affect the use of all old DVD's, it only adds the use of Blu-Ray disc, which therefore quintuple the data storage size which will allow for some really HD-games and movies.

p.s. I think this story was posted here first (not that it matters)

[Shift Key]

AiAi: It's not a new format, just a higher-density DVD medium. But yeah, it can't be read by normal DVD drives.
I hope this doesn't make the PS3 more expensive, or I guess I'll just hold out until the price wars start all over again before considering it.

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Sony did not say whether the PS3 would be able to play DVDs or will be backward-compatible with PS2 games.

Uh-oh.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

I know Blu-Ray players are compatible with the DVD standard, but won't Blu-Ray disc be protected in a plastic cover similar to the way floppy disc are?

[Shift Key]

You're right, AiAi. They look alot like the bigger brother of the UMDs that are used in the PSP.
They have a website too Blu-ray.com

[Jale]

Quote
Originally posted by: Uncle Rich AiAi
I know Blu-Ray players are compatible with the DVD standard, but won't Blu-Ray disc be protected in a plastic cover similar to the way floppy disc are?

They arent. Read the article carefully. It says that Blu Ray Players will have to compete against HD-DVDs (high Definition DVDs). HD-DVDs will have the upper hand because they are backwards compatible with DVDs, but only hold 30GB on a dual-layer disk, rather than the BD's 50GB.

[SgtShiversBen]

Man, Sony is severly screwing everyone here!! With this Blu-Ray technology you can get MORE than 50GBs on one "CD."  Blu-Ray technology is what has been the main problem with FMD discs.  With these discs you can hold up to one TERABYTE!!  Count it, that's 1000 GBs.  These CDs are ready for mass producing and don't cost much, actually cheaper than standard DVDs.  Goshdarn technology.  Lying to us saying this is the wave of the future....I guess so was Beta. ;-)  Stupid Sony.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: Uncle Rich AiAi
I know Blu-Ray players are compatible with the DVD standard, but won't Blu-Ray disc be protected in a plastic cover similar to the way floppy disc are?

Maybe they will have a usable plastic case that you can put standard DVD's and games into.
actually they will most likely sell a bunch of these cases for you to store all your games and movies in, even though you can only play them in your PS3.  

[couchmonkey]

It doesn't matter that the huge size of Blu-Ray isn't needed to make good games because it still serves some purposes for Sony:
1. It makes the PS3 look way cool to average schmoes.
2. Developers will find a way to use the extra space: as a bonus for Sony, when developers leave features out of their ports they will blame media size for it.
3. It might slow down pirating (not sure on this one, can Blu-Ray be copied cheaply?)

[manunited4eva22]

Not until later in the generation.  The burners have to be there before the discs can be ripped.

[Draygaia]

Huge RPGs will probably be seperated into parts.  Like if there is some RPG that should take 120 hrs to beat they'll make it look like a trilogy because like a movie no one will just watch Lord of the Rings in one go.  Unless they use all that space to make it look like RE only no pre-rendered backgrounds or stilled cameras.

[BlackNMild2k1]

::WARNING: Take following statement(s) with grains of salt as they are a little truth dipped in a whole lot of 'What If'

Also Microsoft may be supporting Blu-Ray in some form or another in the future (as in maybe the drive for the X-box 2?)

"We're still evaluating the final feature set of the forthcoming operating system, and nothing is set in stone at this point," said Jonathan Usher, director of Microsoft's Windows Digital Media division. "Microsoft remains neutral with respect to the technology we plan to support for high definition DVD playback in future versions of Windows, and we remain committed to discussions underway with other groups like Blu-Ray."

source: TeamXbox Forums

If this did happen (speaking hypothetically here) where would this leave Nintendo?

[Shift Key]

Indifferent.
The media is probably not definite at this point, as it can be decided later in the development cycle. They won't jump aboard the BD-ROM media anytime soon, IMO. It just doesn't make sense that Sony makes money off every Revolution game sold. Boo-urns!

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"we remain committed to discussions underway with other groups like Blu-Ray."

Sounds like a 'you scratch my back, i'll use your media format' situation to me. But if they don't get a satisfactory deal, they'll use the HD-DVD media.

[The Omen]

Why is everyone glossing over this:

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Quote

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Originally posted by: Uncle Rich AiAi
I know Blu-Ray players are compatible with the DVD standard, but won't Blu-Ray disc be protected in a plastic cover similar to the way floppy disc are?
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They arent. Read the article carefully. It says that Blu Ray Players will have to compete against HD-DVDs (high Definition DVDs). HD-DVDs will have the upper hand because they are backwards compatible with DVDs, but only hold 30GB on a dual-layer disk, rather than the BD's 50GB.

[BlackNMild2k1]

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Originally posted by: The Omen
Why is everyone glossing over this:

Quote
Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Uncle Rich AiAi
I know Blu-Ray players are compatible with the DVD standard, but won't Blu-Ray disc be protected in a plastic cover similar to the way floppy disc are?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



They arent. Read the article carefully. It says that Blu Ray Players will have to compete against HD-DVDs (high Definition DVDs). HD-DVDs will have the upper hand because they are backwards compatible with DVDs, but only hold 30GB on a dual-layer disk, rather than the BD's 50GB.

to the mis-informed:

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Sony has successfully developed a single three-wavelength optical head, capable of recording and playing next-generation Blu-ray Discs, as well as conventional DVDs and CDs without requiring an extra optical head for backwards compatibility. The technology requires less parts, is cheaper to produce and provides full backwards compatibility with current DVD/CD formats.

source:
Blu-Ray.com

[Jale]

Ah, I just took mine from the Gamespot article. My bad.

This sounds damn expensive, don't it?  

[manunited4eva22]

I hope to god they get the laser right this time.  I will not send back a ps3 because they made the same mistake as they made on ps2.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: manunited4eva22
Not until later in the generation.  The burners have to be there before the discs can be ripped.

? what do you mean exactly, because BRD Burners have already been released.  

I like that they're using Blue Ray, it will make Blue Ray discs in general be less expensive (BRD-RD's, BRD movies, etc).  I'll like that we'll be able to have entire TV show seasons on one disc and have 50 gb available for burning BRD, hell I'll be able to save lots more stuff that i get off the computer.

[Ages]

Quote
Originally posted by: SgtShiversBen
Man, Sony is severly screwing everyone here!! With this Blu-Ray technology you can get MORE than 50GBs on one "CD."  Blu-Ray technology is what has been the main problem with FMD discs.  With these discs you can hold up to one TERABYTE!!  Count it, that's 1000 GBs.  These CDs are ready for mass producing and don't cost much, actually cheaper than standard DVDs.  Goshdarn technology.  Lying to us saying this is the wave of the future....I guess so was Beta. ;-)  Stupid Sony.

Wow, and I thought I was the only one who remembered FMD's.  Why doesnt anyone talk about them is beyone me.  Not only are the drives compatible with DVD's and CD's, they also hold much more than Blu-Ray and HD-DVD combined.  This would be the ideal format for Nintendo systems.  Not only would they have more storage than Sony could muster, they wouldnt be paying Sony royalities for the technology.  Plus, in addition to the discs, FMD card's were designed too.  These cards are about the size of a credit card, and with storage sizes of 10GB and up, it would be the perfect medium for "GBEvolution" (that is, if Evolution is Nintendo's technological answer to the PSP, but that's a whole new ballgame right there).  Nintendo should definetly invest in this tech before this gem is discovered by others.

Edit:  here's a website on the FMD tech.

[Shift Key]

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FMD storage technology, created by Constellation 3D, is a major removable storage breakthrough. Its applications are virtually limitless and are certainly not limited to computers. I have very little doubt that FMD will join the ranks of current removable storage acronyms such as CD-R, DVD, DVD-RAM, and CD-RW.

^ blol bold prediction in 2000 what
The reason why we don't see FMD media around is quite simple - the company has gone under. Their domain is for sale, and no-one has heard boo from these guys in a while.

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However, IBM decided that there were too many difficulties in producing a 6 layer disc and scrapped the project.

Or that.

1. First off, they are not compatible with current CDs and DVDs -  the lens detects wavelengths of 680nm, not the 650nm of "red" lasers that are in CD players.
2. The filter that the technology uses is not part of the disc - it sits between the media and the lens.
3. The designers weren't even sure of the best way to write to these discs. I found another article which describes in more detail the concept of fluorescent multilayer media, and it sounds like there is no way to make a rewriteable FMD at all, let alone a definite way to write to the discs.

Digit-Life.com
This article was written a while ago (pre-2000), and they too speak of FMDs being a major rival to DVDs

[Ages]

While it is true that the company has gone under, isnt there a possibility that Nintendo could buy the rights to the tech?  It seemed like the product was basically there, the only need would be to condense the hardware down a bit (the card reader was huge).

[manunited4eva22]

Joe, sorry I haven't paid much attention to this thread.

The burners exist, but at a 3500 dollar price tag, no one is going to be able to burn them for atleast a few years, assuming blu-ray does become a big success and hits affordable levels.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: manunited4eva22
Joe, sorry I haven't paid much attention to this thread.

The burners exist, but at a 3500 dollar price tag, no one is going to be able to burn them for atleast a few years, assuming blu-ray does become a big success and hits affordable levels.

They had them for 3000 months ago, so by next year they will be significantly cheaper.  In two years time, if things go well they could be a couple hundred.  

[KDR_11k]

Once a format goes big the burners get cheap.

[manunited4eva22]

Burners are still 3000 dollars, there is absolutely no demand for them! Blu-ray hasn't been picked to be a future medium for anything other tha ps3, and until it does, the burners will still be expensive and rare.  

If things go well, as in a miracle flies in and allows sony to gain the dvd consortiums love?

[joeamis]

No the only thing that needs to go well for it infact is if playstation 3 does half as well as playstation 2 has done, then in 2 years time the burners will be a couple hundred.  That doesn't even take into account if any computers use them, and it's looking like that will very well happen since alot of computer companies are already backing Blue-ray.  And that doesn't count if it gets used for tv and movie media as well.  So, they will definitely be cheap in 2 years.

[BlackNMild2k1]

FMD uses red or blue laser, and flourescent dye in a clear disc instead of a reflective disc allowing for more usable stacked layers (upto 20 of them or so)

anyway check the link at the top of the page that goes to Digit-Life.com, or just click on this repasting of it

[manunited4eva22]

Show me a single major computer company that will put  blu-ray anywhere outside of servers.    If it gets selected by the dvd consortium, which looks slim.  It will not gain a market presence in tv recording unless it gets below dvr/dvd recording costs.  Just about all of blu-ray burning/drive's futures rely upon the medium being accepted by the dvd consortium.

[joeamis]

Hewlett Packard and Dell have backed Blue Ray since before January of this year...  They plan to use it in their computers sometime at 2006 at the latest.  Another thing is, that the Blue-Ray Companies say that the production costs of Blue-Ray is going to be comparable to DVDs in mass volumes.  There are also already 10 companies making Blue-Ray recorders.

[KDR_11k]

Farfel: Realtime graphics assets require next to no space (Doom 3 takes 3 CDs). With the next gen it should be possible to archieve many of the effects you currently need FMVs for in realtime. That'd seriously cut down on the game sizes. Yes, some companieswill still use FMVs for the sake of having them, but look at e.g. Soul Calibur 2, with every character in a game so detailled there's no real need for prerendering anything.

[SgtShiversBen]

Now why in the hell do we even need a new medium anyways?  I mean, DVDs have just been around for mainstream audiences for like 4 or 5 years.  Tapes were around for like 15-20.  This is just horrible, what'd be the point of getting a whole new bunch of movies and what not just to have to rebuy them in 3 years.  Sure it could just be PS3 that uses it, but then everyone will be all gung-ho about it, and then it'll become mainstream.  GAH!! I'm thinking about giving up on technology and just using my existing ones....except for the orange barrels.

[SgtShiversBen]

See that's the thing buddy, I know it's ten years old, but I said for MAINSTREAM audiences it is no more than 5.  And who cares about HDTV, we were happy with VCRs, why can't these kids be happy with DVD.  They surpass more than anything that was available at the time, and still do.  I just hate it when people are all "OH A NEW FORMAT!! IT MUST BE THE BEST IN THE WORLD" in which DVD sucks.  Sony tried to already do it with BETA, and even though there is one of those things here, it sucks balls like a little vietnamese girl.  It's so horrible that people jump on the bandwagon so soon, blue-ray is just something that's trying to make more money, like C-2.  Oy, it's sad, may he have mercy on your souls...or in this case, give you more money.

Oh, DVD sucks by the way...it's a horrible form of media and bad for archiving purposes.

[manunited4eva22]

Okay, HP and Dell, both sell servers, whats your point. A lot of companies sell magneto optical drives, it's real popular with MRIs and servers, but you won't see it anywhere else.   However, in order for any medium to become popular, it has to have more than just hardware companies saying I'm in? Remember dvd-ram? Panasonic's idea of what dvd should have been, turned out to be a dud.  What you are saying is that it if something happens, and if something happens after that, then this might happen, that's a lot of ifs, and I seriously doubt that blu-ray will be the medium of choice in the next few years. Will it be cheap to produce?  Sure, but it's cheap to make a lot of things, doesn't make it infallible either.

Shivers: what would you prefer to archive on?  Hard drives? Floppies? Or will you go buy me a 500 dollar tape drive and 50 dollar tapes?  

[Renny]

HDTV broadcasts will be standard, eventually. No one's going to force us to record at HD quality. DVD-recorders are only just starting to take off, so DVDs will be around for awhile on the consumer end.

[Renny]

Because most don't give a damn about HD quality on their old interlaced CRT? People aren't going to just jump right onto the still-expensive HDTV bandwagon when they're perfectly content with what they have. They won't even get an HD tuner till they absolutely have to.

[Renny]

I don't. But many people really couldn't care less. And HDTV's been pushed back for years. I'd expect at least a couple more before the public is forced to adopt HDTV.

[KDR_11k]

I wonder if HDTVs still use 100Hz...

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: manunited4eva22
Okay, HP and Dell, both sell servers, whats your point.     What you are saying is that it if something happens, and if something happens after that, then this might happen, that's a lot of ifs, and I seriously doubt that blu-ray will be the medium of choice in the next few years. Will it be cheap to produce?  Sure, but it's cheap to make a lot of things, doesn't make it infallible either.

You're ignoring what I said.  Here it is again: Hewlett Packard and Dell have backed Blue Ray since before January of this year... They plan to use it in their (home) computers sometime at 2006 at the latest. Another thing is, that the Blue-Ray Companies say that the production costs of Blue-Ray is going to be comparable to DVDs in mass volumes. There are also already 10 companies making Blue-Ray recorders.

I included that BRD production costs are going to be as cheap as dvd's because we were talking about the cost of BRD Recorders...  and the media costs tie into that directly.

And I didn't say this might happen, then this might happen, only.  Like I said previously ONLY PS3 has to do as half as well as PS2 has done, for BRD Recorders to be cheap in 2 years.  That is not alot of ifs at all.  

[KDR_11k]

If you can't pirate those disks I'd imagine Sony would lose a lot of its customer base.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If you can't pirate those disks I'd imagine Sony would lose a lot of its customer base.

If that was the case, then PS2 titles wouldn't be dominating sales on a daily basis.  Dell and HP haven't released burners yet, I doubt they will release stand alone models but rather just stick to having them in their computers.  Since Sony is a key company in developing Blue-Ray, it will probably be easier for them to combat piracy using Blue-Ray discs in PS3 than it is for them now using DVDs for PS2.

[oohhboy]

Quote
Originally posted by: farfel
Yep you're right.  Delayed until at least 85% have HDTVs or HDTV tuners.  I think that's a good plan.

"The target date set by Congress for the completion of the transition to DTV is December 31, 2006. However, that date may be extended until most homes (85%) in an area are able to watch the DTV programming. At that point, broadcasting on the analog channels will end." - FCC.gov

That is all very nice and a horribly flawed argument. What about the rest of the world. The U.S. isn't the onlt contry out there you know.

[KDR_11k]

joe: Doesn't mean there aren't enough people buying the games, but piracy helps hardware sales.

[joeamis]

You said they would lose a lot of their customer base.  I'm saying that if they sell so many games, that shows that the overwhelming majority of gamers who own PS2's do not pirate software but rather buy it.  So they wouldn't lose a lot of their customer base, they would lose a small minority.  

[KDR_11k]

Minority doesn't mean a little, though. 10 million would be a minority, but not a minor hit.

Oh, and there's the sale by potential, i.e. someone will buy something because it can do something even though he'll never use it that way. Take online gaming, many people want to have it yet they probably wouldn't use it if they could.

[oohhboy]

Look pal, what am I going to do with HD equipment when there isn't any such signal within 5000 kilometers. We do have digital data streams, but they pretty bad and I see no reason to pay to watch it.

Japan already tried HDTV. That went nowhere.

Besides, HDTV doesn't offer anything over normal TV than increased resolution and congesting the already overflowing airwaves.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Minority doesn't mean a little, though. 10 million would be a minority, but not a minor hit.

Oh, and there's the sale by potential, i.e. someone will buy something because it can do something even though he'll never use it that way. Take online gaming, many people want to have it yet they probably wouldn't use it if they could.

Minority does mean a little.  And 10 million is not a minority of PS2 users, that's a big percentage.  Anyways there is not 10 million PS2 users who only play pirated software.  Sale by potential doesn't matter, even if they don't end up going online they're still using the system and buy games for it.

[KDR_11k]

Unless there are less than 20 million PS2 users, 10 million IS a minority. Minority says nothing about the absolute size, merely the relative size.

[manunited4eva22]

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No the only thing that needs to go well for it infact is if playstation 3 does half as well as playstation 2 has done, then in 2 years time the burners will be a couple hundred. That doesn't even take into account if any computers use them, and it's looking like that will very well happen since alot of computer companies are already backing Blue-ray. And that doesn't count if it gets used for tv and movie media as well. So, they will definitely be cheap in 2 years.

This is what I am referring to.  You back up ifs with yes it will happen.

BTW can I see a link where Dell and HP say that they will put the burners in desktops? That's really what I would like to see.

I have already said this about 8 times.  Whoever wins out in the next movie disc standard will win the pc market as well.  It's pointless to sell a disc that is going to do you just about nothing.  DVD-RAM went down this course, so did Magneto Optical.  Continuing this debate without further proof gets this no where.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Unless there are less than 20 million PS2 users, 10 million IS a minority. Minority says nothing about the absolute size, merely the relative size.

No Sh1t it's about relative size, I'm not a little kid.  We were already discussing minority in relativity to the entire userbase, that's why I said minority means a little.  A little in terms of overall userbase.  Isn't there only an installed PS2 userbase of 50 million?  If so then 10 million is 20%.  I admit I was off in saying 10 million is not a minority, but even though it's a minority it's still a big percentage.  It has to do with how you see the degree of minority, for instance when I think of minority the first thing that comes to mind is the different races in the United States, and things like Asians representing only about 4% of the total population.  Given my background I have a more degree'd stance of minority than you or most anyone who lives in Europe.  And the dictionary link you posted, does comment about absolute size: "2. State of being less or small. [Obs.] --Sir T. Browne.", I guess you didn't read every one.  And it seems 50 million may be off, apparently the PS2 userbase is now at 70 million?  Now 10 million really is a minority.  Only 14% now.  (That's closer to minority races in the US, and where my main definition of minority comes from).

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: manunited4eva22

Quote
No the only thing that needs to go well for it infact is if playstation 3 does half as well as playstation 2 has done, then in 2 years time the burners will be a couple hundred.

This is what I am referring to.  You back up ifs with yes it will happen.

BTW can I see a link where Dell and HP say that they will put the burners in desktops? That's really what I would like to see.

There, I just clipped my post with the only thing that needs to happen, as I have stated many times over now.  And I will state it again, the only thing that needs to go well is for PS3 to do half as well as PS2 has done.  That is not an if.  That will happen.  I never stated that computers will use them as burners, I said they plan to use Blue Ray.  Much in the same way that DVD's were used in computers far earlier before you saw DVD Burners in computers.  I read it in some computer magazine that they plan to use Blue Ray readers for their PC's.  And obviously this would make it very probable that BR burners could be introduced in PC's at a later time as well.  

[KDR_11k]

joe: Now you're arguing semantics. I'd say that even if 10-20 million PS2 users had maybe one or two legitimate games and the rest warezed, the sales numbers for PS2 games would still be very high. IMO the numbers for game sales on the PS2 vs. the installed base is vastly lower than those found on the other consoles, that might be casual games, that might be pirates and it's probably a bit of both.

[manunited4eva22]

How does PS3 push a medium?  The case is not sony wants you to feel free to upload your games to the internet.  Blu-ray needs a major backing from the dvd consortium to become the next dominent medium.  Until that happens it won't do well in the PC/movie industry.

A disc only used by a single console is not considered to be a major success.  You don't see PCs coming with drives that can read GODs just because Matsushita is producing it.

[KDR_11k]

I'm not sure the tie in ratio is actually based on the installed base. Also, the PS2 is out a little longer than the Cube or XBox.