Topic: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jollus
As far as why Sony is talking about this now, one word, hype.   They want to hype up the PSP so people will wait and NOT buy gameboys.  It is a bit of a catch 22, because if Nintendo lets loose with the plans for the next uber-gameboy it will have the same effect, lower GBA sales.  Sony may not even have any hardware yet.

That's exactly what I was going to say.  If you want to see my to opinion on this, see the similar thread in the Other Systems Discussion.
Nintendo should be worried.  This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base.  And damn Sony for turning handheld games into FMV.  Damn them.

 

[JoeFalco]

We just have to wait and see what happens.

Being the loyal Nintendo goomba that I am, I hope PSP crashes and burns like the Gamegear in the long run.  
(I still have my sister's Gamegear collecting dust that she gave me years ago.  If l feel like wasting batteries, I'll sometimes play it.)

But that's just me!

[odinfire]

Do you people really think that Nintendo will let go of their major cash cow so easily. Lets think back for a minute. Exactly how many technologically superior portable products have come out since Gameboy's debut? At least the Sega GameGear and Neo-Geo Pocket to name a couple and both were stealthier and basically a better product then Gameboy. But ultimately however who is still around. NINTENDO.

Look at it this way. The problem Gamecube sports that PS2 does not is backwards compatibility. This is a good reason why PS2 is doing so well. At its first release, PS2 already had a huge gaming library. Gamecube... Only its launch titles. It is the same with Gameboy Advance SP and the new PSP machine. Except worse. People dont demand much graphically from portable games. Therefore many old Gameboy games still get played and Nintendo's portable software library is too huge for anyone to make a dent. Like the consoles, third party support will follow the largest userbase, and in this case its Nintendo. Sony and PSP will get put to shame. Sony actually has a big problem on their hands trying to bring a portable to market at this time. They should have done it a little earlier in the PS2's career. Ideally, the PSP should come out when Nintendo's portable technology advances enough that backward compatibility is not an option for them. That way both systems would have equal footing. Price point will also be a major concern. Sony has a reputation of being slightly overpriced not to mention a producer of "bulky" machines. The only way I would pay over $150.00 for a portable machine is if it let me play DVD's as well. Evidently there is not a chance for that in the new Sony machine. The specs for their new portable seem a bit uncomfortable. Well I guess we will see, but keep in mind, this is one area where Nintendo has the absolute MOST experience and expertise. Sony WILL have a very hard time contending.
 

[aoi tsuki]

Quote
Do you people really think that Nintendo will let go of their major cash cow so easily. Lets think back for a minute. Exactly how many technologically superior portable products have come out since Gameboy's debut? At least the Sega GameGear and Neo-Geo Pocket to name a couple and both were stealthier and basically a better product then Gameboy.

And exactly how many of these were marketed well enough? The Game Gear was the only real competitor for the Gameboy (in the US). Sega's marketing power around that time was at its peak. Sony is a marketing superpower; the Playstation name alone will sell on its own. They may have a hard time stealing marketshare from the GBA, but then they could just pull a Playstation and rope in a new gamers. There's plenty of people who don't have a GBA.

About a year ago, i remember reading about a device Sony was working on that would  play games, in addition to audio and video, and connect to multiple Sony devices (PS2, camera, cell phones). This looks like that device. If it is, well, without speculating too much let's just say it means *very* good things for Sony.

i'm not forecasting doom for the GBA at the hands of the PSP, especially since Nintendo has the main advantage of quality games, but they need to look at this as a real threat, and as Nintendo fans we need to view it as such as well. Nintendo can't simply sit back and expect GBA to continue to sell itself. Your enemy is most vulnerable when they think they've won.  

[ActorJ]

Quote
Originally posted by: Nintega
That was back in the N64 days, not with the Gamecube.  You don't need all that space unless it's all FMV.  And with a screen that small, you don't need DVD quality because you couldn't tell the difference.  Just because the media on the PSP has more space doesn't mean the game will sell nor does it mean they will use all of it.  Yeah, it's great that it has that much space but it isn't necessary for handheld games.  Take a look at some of the GBA games.  They look great and play great but the media it uses is cartridge.  And as I've stated, handheld games are meant to be short.  If you want to play a 50+ hour RPG/Adventure, stick to a console.

I love how you pass off your OPINIONS as gospel. Let me see how many "short" games I have in my portable collection. Hmm Dragon Warrior 3? Golden Sun? The Lost Age? Castlevania? Zelda?

Give me a break. You still have the mindset that might have been appropriate in 1988. The truth is, any game makes a good portable game, as long as you can save it at any time.

I think you underestimate the importance of storage space. With all that space at your disposal, you can have CD quality sound, kiss MIDI Goodbye. You can have Tony Hawk on the go, with the original soundtrack, and more. Having more space doesn't automatically mean you have to have bigger, longer games (although I am not opposed to that) it means you can make the same short pick up and play games better in every way.

Nevermind the fact that it will be much more attractive to developers. Do you have any idea how espensive those rom cartidges are? Very. There is a very good reaosn why no one has yet used a 256mbit cart, even though they have been available for a long time. Cost. There is a reason why even A-list titles like Aria of Sorrow ship on 64mbit carts, and the only games that are relased on the larger 128mbit carts are those that a garnteed to sell like crazy, Golden Sun 2, for instance.

There are so many advantaged to a disc based medium it's not even funny. And with todays technolgy, you dont really even have to worry about battery drain or load times. Just look at the loadtimes on gamecube games. Almost none.

[Nintega]

Regardless what my opinions are, you've already made up your mind that the PSP will sell based on the storage capacity alone.  I'm a little more optimistic just because it's all on paper and Sony has yet to show the hardware, nor the games.  If storage was such a concern, developers would be complaining left and right about not enough space on DVD media, Gamecube disc format, Dreamcasts GDROM.  Storage does not determine how good a game is.  You can make a good game, it all depends on how you utilize the hardware.

[mouse_clicker]

"This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base."

Sony's current user base for the PSP is 0. Nintendo's for the GBA is numbering in the tens of millions. User bases do NOT translate from home consoles to portable consoles, and REALLY hope publishers realize this. If that were true, the Gamecube would be selling just as well as the GBA, but it *isn't*. Portable systems and home systems are two completely different areas and good name recognition in one does almsot nothing in the other (as is evident again with the GCN and GBA).

[ActorJ]

Quote
Originally posted by: Nintega
Regardless what my opinions are, you've already made up your mind that the PSP will sell based on the storage capacity alone.  I'm a little more optimistic just because it's all on paper and Sony has yet to show the hardware, nor the games.  If storage was such a concern, developers would be complaining left and right about not enough space on DVD media, Gamecube disc format, Dreamcasts GDROM.  Storage does not determine how good a game is.  You can make a good game, it all depends on how you utilize the hardware.

there is a reason developers are not complaining about storage on PS2, GC, or Xbox, and it doesn't take a Genius to figure out that that's because all three of those systems have a cheap media with plenty of space.

That is not the case with GBA. Developers are alwasy complaining that GBA carts do not have enough space, and the ones that do cost an arm and a leg. They had the same complaint about the N64.

You need to stop looking at the handheld market as a market for tetris, and relaize that like all things, it is growing an changing.

I am certainly not suggesting, as you claim, that the PSP will sell on storage capacity alone. It has plenty of other things going for it, like a beautiful high rez screen and a full fledged sound system. However, I think you miss underdsatnd why the storage media is sucha huge coup for sony. IT'S CHEAP! That is what will attract developers, for the same reason the PSX atracted developers away from N64. there is a higher profity margin with disc based media. The fact that the huge capicty will allow for CD quality sound and extras galore is just icing on the cake for developers.

No one is saying, at least no sane people, that the PSP will spell the death of the Gameboy. But it WILL shake the portable market up something fierce, and Nintendo will finally be forced to respond with something more that an incremental upgrade. The GBA SP is one cool little unit, but I don't think anyone could argue that it was underpowered from the start, Nintendo should have been aiming somehwere around the saturn mark for 2d grpahics quality and sound quality. now they will be forced to do what they should have already done.

[mouse_clicker]

ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

[ActorJ]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
"This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base."

Sony's current user base for the PSP is 0. Nintendo's for the GBA is numbering in the tens of millions. User bases do NOT translate from home consoles to portable consoles, and REALLY hope publishers realize this. If that were true, the Gamecube would be selling just as well as the GBA, but it *isn't*. Portable systems and home systems are two completely different areas and good name recognition in one does almsot nothing in the other (as is evident again with the GCN and GBA).

You are completely confused as to the real reason why the GC is not doing well. It has nothing to do with name recognition, andhas everything to do with a nugled product and poor markting. Let's take Sont out of the equation, because they had  headstart of a year. While MS and Nintendo entered this generation on equal footing, MS is now firmly in second place, while nintendo struggles to meet it's tagrets? Why? Because the casual gamer drives the market, not the  hardcore gamer than read planet gamecube. The casual gamer likes the xbox because the commercials and the Xbox has a bad ass image. The average gamer doesn't know the differecne between the hardware of the various system. They dont know that the Xbox in more powerful than the gamecube which is more powerful than the Ps2. They just don't care about that stuff. What they do care about is that nintendo unveilded a purple cube with a handle two years ago, and while you and i both know what a great system it is, and what great games it has, all the casual gamer really notices is that it is a purple cube with a handle.


The fact that the GameCube is doing so badly against the Ps2 and Xbox has nothing to do with name recognition or lack thereof, and everything to do with bad marketing. Similarly, the success of the GBA has very little do with the fact that it is a gameboy, and everything to do with the fact that it HAS NEVER seen any worth competition, only half assed efforts from companies that could not afford to be in it for the long haul. The SP model is a little different, this is perhaps the first product since the SNES that Nintendo haes designed and marketed effectively, and it shows. Everyone that see my SP wants one, even people who have never wanted a portable system in thier lives.

People need to stop making excuses for Nintendo. Nintendo deserves to be in the position they are in today, they bought and paid for it.  All this crap about Nintedo innovating? Give me a break? GC-GBA link up? No one really cares about that. E-reader? Just reminds me of bar code battler, from what, like 1992?

The fact that Sony is releasing a very hgih powered handheld, and will no doubt market the thing to death is good for us, the consumer, and a wake up call for Nintendo, one that tells them that they cannot caost along relying in thier handheld to support thier consoles anymore, nor can they afford to be behind on technology. Sony is now the Jones', and Nintendo needs to keep up.

Don't take this a a rant against Nintendo. I LOVE nintendo, I grew up with Nintendo. I love Zelda, and I love that feeling of Nostalgia I get when I play my NES. But at some point, people need to wake up and realize that Nintendo has not been operating like a business since around 1997.

[ActorJ]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

Yes. you are right. Development costs for the PSP will be higher, that is to be expected. However, profit margins will also be much higher. Is is not a matter of cartirdges being "slightly" more expensive, the difference is great. compare 7-10 dollars a unit for a GBA cart, to less than a dollar for a DVD disc.  Also, compare that GBA games must be sold for 10-20 dollars less than console games, and it's easy to understand why we see worthwhile software from the big players, with the big name game amkers, like Konami, Capcom, Nitendo, Sega, and shovelware from everyone else. The big names are the only ones who can afford to develop decent games for the GBA.

Is Nintendo working on a successor to the GBA? No doubt. Let's all hope they are planning a new high capacity, cheap medium, rather than trying to maintina backward compatabilty with carts. Carts killed the N64, and make no mistake, the same thing *could* happen with the gameboy. Ninteno has under estimated Sony before.

[ActorJ]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

Yes. you are right. Development costs for the PSP will be higher, that is to be expected. However, profit margins will also be much higher. Is is not a matter of cartirdges being "slightly" more expensive, the difference is great. compare 7-10 dollars a unit for a GBA cart, to less than a dollar for a DVD disc.  Also, compare that GBA games must be sold for 10-20 dollars less than console games, and it's easy to understand why we see worthwhile software from the big players, with the big name game amkers, like Konami, Capcom, Nitendo, Sega, and shovelware from everyone else. The big names are the only ones who can afford to develop decent games for the GBA.

Is Nintendo working on a successor to the GBA? No doubt. Let's all hope they are planning a new high capacity, cheap medium, rather than trying to maintina backward compatabilty with carts. Carts killed the N64, and make no mistake, the same thing *could* happen with the gameboy. Ninteno has under estimated Sony before.

[Armed]

Well i think that Nintendo can still dominate the handheld market since most people already own a GBA or GBA SP anyway. What they just have to do now is start to make a new handheld that will blow aways Sonys PSP and try to release it like a year after the PSP comes out with alot of preview advertising of their new handheld so people will know that there is something better that is coming; i mean who would buy a handheld that will be outdated away by another handheld a year after. Also you don't really know the battery life of Sonys PSP or price so i don't think there is anything to worry about.


......or is there (remembering how the rise of PS started)?  

[EggyToast]

The format proposed for the PSP isn't a DVD.  It's a proprietary DVD format, on small discs in a case.  Yes, it's cheaper, but, similar to 3" DVD's, they're still more expensive than DVDs.

One of the great things about smaller cartridges is that it forces developers to do MORE with LESS.  They optimise the code, they keep games graphically simple (since graphics take up a lot more space compared to gameplay code), and they emphasize the gameplay.  That's GOOD.  They say "This game can be no larger than 64k."  

Compared to a format where they can just dump some crap on the disc and call it a game.  Yes, that *might* lead to better games, but the only real difference in graphics between the N64 and the PS was the FMV and sound.  But the loading times on the PS were awful, and are awful on the PS2 as well.  You think anyone wants to wait for a new level to load up on their handheld while they're waiting for the bus to come?

I love playing Puyo Pop on my GBA because I just pop it in, play a few games, and, hey if in a few minutes I can't play anymore, that's it.  

So, if these games have a huge 1.8 dvd-type format, how are they going to save games?  The PSP is going to write to these discs, too?  Better not bump it while recording your game!  Better have a good few minutes to wait while the game accesses the right portion of the disc and writes to the disc and updates the TOC file!

Cartridges are beautiful for quick and easy gameplay.

[mouse_clicker]

"You are completely confused as to the real reason why the GC is not doing well. It has nothing to do with name recognition, andhas eerything to do with a nugled product and poor markting."

My POINT was that user bases don't transfer over systems, otherwise the Gamecube would have a large user base REGARDLESS of whether they marketed or not. THe Gamecube has great support from Nintendo and I haven't seen any more PS2 commercial from Sony than Gamecube commercials from Nintendo. Marketing and product isn't the WHOLE reason- don't try to boil it down to just one or two reasons because it's not as simple as that.

What I was getting at was that just because the PSX and PS2 did well does NOT mean the PSP is going to do well. They're completely different kinds of systems, and currently Nintendo has tens of millions of users while Sony has NONE. I realise Sony COULD break into the market, but nobody should EXPECT soley because Sony did well in the home console region.

[aoi tsuki]

i believe it was PS2 IGN that stated that save data would be handled by Memory Sticks. Magic Box had a picture comparing a regular CD/DVD disc and a PSP disc. There was no case. And even if they did write to the UDM drive, i'm sure there wouldn't been a problem with writing -- Sony's learned how to make durable discs during their many years of producing Minidisc equipment. An MD has to take a pretty hard shock (like a drop to the floor) while writing in order to corrupt the data being written. Come to think of it, the disc inside a Minidisc is exactly 2.5 inches.
 

[thepoga]

sony's discs will be inside cartridges. wonder how big they will be though.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

mouse_clicker - I know the PSP has no user base, but I'm sure it does now.  I bet it is the same people who believed in the PS2 hype, and are now drooling at the PSP specs, forgeting the fact it is vaporware.  Remember, the Playstation name sells.

ActorJ - You made a good point I forgot to put in my last post.  Cartidges vs optical disc.  For sure, developers will go for the optical disc since it is cheaper.    And if Nintendo do make their next Game Boy using optical disc, it is not possible to play old Game Boy games.  Which will reduce the games library to zero.

And I want to make another point.  When will Nintendo release their next Game Boy?  Or can for that matter?  They can't too soon, because they just released the SP, or they will piss a lot of people off.  Remember the Genesis and the Sega CD and 32x?  My guess is for a least 2 years.  

[Jollus]

Well Nintendo is planning on a 2005 launch of their next home console right?  I would expect the next Gameboy to lauch around the same time.  Nintendo has stated that they won't let sony and microsoft get a head start on them the next round.  Unless sony is farther along then they seem to be at this point it is unlikely that they will launch in 2004.  Meaning that the new GB and the PSP might be releasing within months of eachother.

[pulse]

I'm thinking that Sony could possibly be trying to scare Nintendo into releasing a disc based medium for their next handheld console. This would effectively reduce their gaming library back to square one, equivalent to where Sony stands. This way, they are both on a level playing field and the PlayStation brand name can work the magic that Sony thinks it will. Unless Nintendo has a brainstorming idea to have a slot for the old GBA and GB games and another one to insert the new disc-based medium they come up with, if that is what they decide to do. That would definately make it a challenge for Sony to compete with something that has a backlog of 400+ games and new ones in 3D to match what Sony is offering.

[nitsu niflheim]

Quote
Originally posted by: pulse
I'm thinking that Sony could possibly be trying to scare Nintendo into releasing a disc based medium for their next handheld console. This would effectively reduce their gaming library back to square one, equivalent to where Sony stands. This way, they are both on a level playing field and the PlayStation brand name can work the magic that Sony thinks it will. Unless Nintendo has a brainstorming idea to have a slot for the old GBA and GB games and another one to insert the new disc-based medium they come up with, if that is what they decide to do. That would definately make it a challenge for Sony to compete with something that has a backlog of 400+ games and new ones in 3D to match what Sony is offering.

The slot for GBA and GB games could also serve as a slot for a memory card of sorts when playing a disc-based game, thus giving the extra slot more than one use.

[oohhboy]

Or you have the disc in a cartiage which has a memchip installed(Dirt cheap at this point) which uses the old connectors for read and write to chip. Then have the reading head come out from the side, not from the bottom. That would allow you to have both. Cutting GB support would be ok at this point while still keeping GBA support. The slot would look like the current slot but closer to the middle as disc in case would come out square. The disc would stick out of th slot but would be under the body GBNX.

[jarob]

Somone finally said it.  Just use the cartridge slot for memory. nitsujdark
you took the words out of my mouth.

[oohhboy]

Yeah but you end up with two slots which would make the thing look like one of those SNES adapter things which is butt ugly and big. Also discs that small in a losse packaging is asking for trouble. You have to go MD style. Those Sony Mem sticks arn't that small either. Having separate mem device on a portable is also asking people to lose things. Think about the kids who are going to buy it. One of the points or portables is that you can just plug and play without having to worry about which mem card you have your save file on.

Having a build-in chip in the cartilage to store dta would allow devs to buy only what they need, with th added bonus that if they have smller save files, they pay less for th chip.

[egman]

On the media issue, I think we the advantage of the PSP is not as great as it seems. Recently Nintendo has made some invenstments in Rom technology that is so easy to implement that it is possible to utilize on todays GBA. I don't know the specifics, but GB roms have already been mentioned as easily possible.

There might be a cool factor to those mini discs that the PSP is going to use, but I would prefer a lighting fast rom anyday. But I'm only a customer, I have no idea how the mini discs may benefit developers, but I doubt it will be beneficial when games start becoming exclusively 3D. It takes a lot more time to develop a 3D game, where as a tiny team can slam together a great game in a half of year or less on current GBA hardware. That is only sepculation, however. This all really hinges upon whether or not people are ready for a 3D handheld. I truly wish handhelds can stay 2D, but Sony is quite capable of selling the concept to consumers. They did with the PSX, and that is why Nintendo needs to nip this is the bud pronto. They can't keep their plans completely underwraps, nor can they attempt a half hearted effort at advertising. They need to start playing Sony's game and hype their wares as if people cannot live without them.