Author Topic: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On (Read 24165 times)

NWR_Lindy · « **on:** May 13, 2003, 10:16:05 AM »

Wow.

That's all I can say. Finally Sony has announced its GameBoy killer, the Playstation Portable. Check CNN.com's E3 page for the full scoop.

Hmm, it'll use a proprietary disc format, feature 3-D graphics, use Sony Memory Stick data technology, feature a backlit screen and a rechargeable battery. In other words, it has all the strengths of the GBA SP and then some - essentially a portable PSOne.

Looks like Sony is trying to bury Nintendo once and for all. I wonder how the Big N will counter this one? They have the massive installed userbase of the GBA, but assuming the PSP can play all Playstation games that gives it a library just as massive (and one would argue a lot more up-to-date) than the GBA's library.

The thought of playing Final Fantasy VII on the road does indeed intrigue me...

silks

PIAC · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:18:35 AM »

hrm moving parts... could cost them battery life, a big battery could cost them size..

inteed it is an intruiging developement..

how would it play the entire playstation library? it surely cant fit cd roms in it... that would make it enormous for a hand held.. heres the link by the way

NWR_Lindy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:24:56 AM »

Good point...I bet it plays mini-discs. Battery life isn't that much of an issue since it's rechargeable. As long as it lasts 10 hours non-stop I think that's reasonable.

silks

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #3 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:41:44 AM »

This is very different than when Sony moved in on the console market. I am sure that Nintendo has this one in the bag.

nitsu niflheim · « **Reply #4 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:46:29 AM »

Quote
May 13, 2003: 3:04 PM EDT

LOS ANGELES (CNN/Money) - Sony threw the gaming industry a curve Wednesday, announcing plans to launch a portable gaming system, which will compete directly with Nintendo's GameBoy Advance.

Today is only Tuesday, May 13, 2003.

?WTF?

joshnickerson · « **Reply #5 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:47:38 AM »

I'll hold my opinions until we actually see the unit and the pricing. Then we'll see if it's as laughable as the N-gage.

Crono Edge · « **Reply #6 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:49:40 AM »

Heh......this should be interesting.

Will sony pull it off like they did with the playstation......or will it flop like everything else thats challenged Gameboy?

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2003, 11:51:16 AM »

Dammit- the portable industry was one place I at least didn't HAVE to own multiple consoles just to enjoy all the good games, but now Sony's screwing that up. They would make a LOT more money just making games for the GBA, like Microsoft, instead of trying to take down Nintendo again.

rpglover · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:08:12 PM »

it says it is going to come out around 2004- i bet nintendo already has new ideas for a new gameboy

Ian Sane · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:24:26 PM »

I think Nintendo has to make sure not to underestimate the potential of the PSP. When Nintendo is number one they tend to relax a bit and assume that because they're number one they can do whatever they want. This is a 3D handheld which means that it has a huge advantage over the GBA right off the bat. Nintendo has to make sure they are agressive in competing with this new product because if they lose their dominance over the portable market they're pretty much screwed and will have TWO consoles in last place. Nintendo can't continue their lazy port-happy support of the GBA if they want to stay ahead.

Overall though I'm happy about this because it should light a fire under Nintendo's @ss. I'm very sick of having nothing but SNES ports and maybe now Nintendo will give us something we really want like a new GBA Mario game.

atrossity · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:30:48 PM »

heres a better link:
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/news/news_6027470.html

woo woo cant wait

Jollus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2003, 02:39:49 PM »

Everyone already knows that there is a new gameboy in development.
One thing that I think is really going to determine this thing is price. Reading the specs on that thing, everything just sounds really expensive. If I have to pick between a $200+ PSP, and a $100-150 GB-X I am going with Nintendo.

Also I think it is important for Nintendo to be sure to keep up the backwards compatability with the gameboy. Use some of the really choice GBA titles to sell the system. It would help a lot at launch. Just as with the PS2 playing PS1 games. One of the biggest things that hurt the N64 was a huge lack of launch titles. I think there were like four games out for the first month of that system.

The GB/GBC were like portable a NES.
The GBA is like a portable SNES (but a little better)
If Nintendo can make a system that is as powerful as the N64, without some of that systems faults, I think they would be near unbeatable. With such a small screen you aren't going to be able to display much more complex graphics than that anyway.

In the past they have tried to keep the $100 launch price. I think they could moved it up to $150, but used that 50 to really flesh out the system and remove anything people could nitpick about. Keep is about the same size as the GBA SP (folding is an awsome idea, i say stick to it). Make sure it has a lit screen, headphone jack(no adapters), rechargable battery (the same or better life than the GBA-SP, or even an option to use one of those fancy micro fuel cells that are being developed for laptops! *drool*), a wireless link as well as wired one (gotta keep that for the old games/GC links).

I am sure Nintendo has already thought of all of these things, and probably some better ones. I just hope they make the right decision and go for the gusto instead of the bottom line. The gameboy has a history that cannot be undone, I just hope Nintendo doesn't think they are cemented at the top of the portable hill. If they aren't careful that great history might be all that is left of the Game Boy in a few years.

Perfect Cell · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2003, 04:02:22 PM »

Im worries as a Nintendo fan, while a GBA sp will cost a whole lot less than this, the Playstation brand name alone will sell this. Third parties will produce games for it, and Nintendo will loose money. Nintendo needs to step it up cause they will end up getting the shaft soon and it wont be pretty

kaw · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2003, 04:10:38 PM »

The PSP truly is the Walkman of the 21st century. The system will have more power than the PS1, disks will have 1.8 GB capacity, a 4.5" widescreen backlit display, memory stick and USB enabled. Developers will no doubt flock to this system and easily rehash their PS1 games to get them on the PSP.

And games is only the beginning for this system. Utilizing the Universal Media Device (UMD) you can bet Sony will be releasing music albums and movies for the system. Since the PSP uses memory sticks for the storage medium you'll be able to pop your card out of your digital camera and view your images and movies on the PSP (assuming you have a Sony digital camera). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sony release UMDs with PDA type software. I've already heard speculation that some GPS functionality will be built in. You would then purchase regional UMDs to get detailed street and/or typography maps. The PSP could be that long fabled all-in-one system that combines your multiple portables. This may work to Nintendo's advantage if they continue to market themselves as the "games-only" console/portable.

The USB connection is very intriguing as well. I'm assuming this or some other proprietary connection is how the PSP will talk to other PSPs, and PS2s (and in the next 2-3 years the PS3). I can see it already... Mod your PSP, upload your MP3s and MPGs to your Memory Sticks, then use a pirated UMD loaded with software to play them on the road.

If Sony is smart they'll slap on some RCA plugs so you can connect it directly to an external source.

Nintendo definitely has their work cut out for them if they want to stay on top of this market. Sony's price-point will be a major obstacle for them. With all this technology I can't believe this system will make it out the door for less than 200. Which probably won't include a memory stick. I also have to speculate how much software will be for the PSP. Sony will no doubt want to compete with GBA prices, but due to the system's power games will be more robust and could cost more to make. 49.99 for games could scare off some parents doing some comparitive shopping, but the way game prices have been dropping lately this shouldn't matter in the long run. Sony could even try to spark sales by releasing some PS1 "Greatest Hits" for the PSP at 19.99.

A lot of what I mentioned was speculative, and meant to spur thought and discussion. I hope Nintendo has something planned to stay on top... Skip the Portable N64. Now how about a portable GC?

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2003, 04:11:03 PM »

Jollus: I'd especially pick up a GB-X over a PSP since the GB-X will obviously be backwards compatible, while the PSP will have to work up it's own library of games. So the GB-X will not only have a huge installed user base but a huge installed game selection as well. The same marketing approach worked great for the PS2 (and it IS really nice getting to play PSX games since I never had one).

Interesting note- Iwata has stated that considering several factors about the PSP, Nintendo doesn't think it'll pose much of a threat. While I agree with him to a degree, I definitely think Nintendo should TREAT the PSP as a threat. Even if their little market analysts don't think the PSP has much of a chance in the handheld sector, ACT like it has a very good chance. Erradicate Sony now or they'll be nipping at the GB's heals for years. Nintendo needs to let Sony know that handhelds are IT'S market, NOT Sony's, and they need puncuate that by insuring the PSP sells no better than the WonderSwan.

kennyb27 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 13, 2003, 05:20:28 PM »

I completely agree with Mouse_clicker here. Even if PSP doesn't pose much of a threat, Nintendo needs to shut them down from the start. They need to not only show Sony what it is like to be starting late but put out a marketing ploy so big that Sony will back out. Now, is this extremely likely? No, probably not. One thing is for sure, it will sell, simply because it has that Playstation nametag placed on it. But Nintendo can and needs to overcome that.

egman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2003, 05:29:53 PM »

Good comments all. Sony has a tough battle, but Nintendo can't sleep on this like the N64. They have the experince, but Sony has an extremely strong brand name in the console sector that could easily translate to buyers if Nintendo plays its cards wrong. They need to play the game like Sony and instead of being ultra secreative of their intentions, they need start getting the specs out to the public with as much fanfare or even boasting as possible. Hype is a very powerful tool these days.

I was hoping that handhelds wouldn't go 3d so soon, however. Sprite based games have almost completely vanished on consoles, but the GBA has been keeping 2d alive with a vengenace. I have loved playing SNES/GENSIS ports along with games like Advance Wars and Golden Sun that really take advantage of the GBA's power. I don't see that little bastion of 2d gaming lasting long when PSX ports of Tony Hawk or FF starting showing up. I can't blame Sony for wanting to take some of the handheld pie, but they are ever so methodically killing one the things I miss from this generation.

Nintega · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2003, 06:24:06 PM »

I wonder why Sony announced it now? The release date isn't until Q4 2004 so its 2 years away. There's no hardware shown, just specs. Now that Nintendo knows what Sony has in store, they have more than enough time to counter the PSP. But by the release of the PSP, the userbase of the the Gameboy Advance will just grow and grow.

ActorJ · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2003, 06:48:35 PM »

True, Nindendo does have plrenty of time to counter, no question on that point. And they should have no trouble matching the grpahical capabilties, the screen, and sound system. That should all be easy for them.

Where Nintendo is going to have serious trouble is where the media is concerned. Sony has announced that there system will use a media that has a higher capcity that a gamecube disc, but it even smaller. Nintendo will have the tough decision of to use a new media that can match the advantaged that sony will have, or to once again use rom carts and maintain backward compatabilty.

Hopefully they will choose the first option, or I will be going with the Sony handheld, and I suspect a lot of developers will too.

Jollus · « **Reply #19 on:** May 13, 2003, 07:14:45 PM »

I fear that portable gaming market will become a stream of lame games full of CG FMV. I mean what else is going to take up almost 2gigs of space? Textures? Not with that resolution. It would enable developers to make ever level of a game totally diferant than the ones before it, not rehashing elements to keep the space down. But that does take time and money to do. What other game related reason is there for MPEG-4 playback?

As far as why Sony is talking about this now, one word, hype. They want to hype up the PSP so people will wait and NOT buy gameboys. It is a bit of a catch 22, because if Nintendo lets loose with the plans for the next uber-gameboy it will have the same effect, lower GBA sales. Sony may not even have any hardware yet. But we all know about it don't we? We are all talking about Sony's next system, and on a Nintendo board no less! Sony had to release this info in order to take the wind out of the GBA+GC link up wirlwind that Nintendo is trying to stir up. I hope that by this time next year, at E3 (or maybe Spaceworld(if there even is a spaceworld anymore)), Nintendo will unleash some hand heald whoopass.

Nintega · « **Reply #20 on:** May 13, 2003, 08:26:07 PM »

The type of media is of no concern because handheld games are meant to be short and easy to pick up and play. It isn't much of a concern on the console so shouldn't be for a handheld. Unless the game is nothing but FMV. Plus, no developer will want to spend all their resource and time creating a handheld game. That should be left to the console.

ActorJ · « **Reply #21 on:** May 13, 2003, 09:04:24 PM »

developers will spend resourcs an time to make games that will sell. Game on this system will sell. Not only that, but the system is powerful enough that seeing simultenous releases on the big consoles and this unit is not out of the question. all the money has already been spent on the home version, so it only takes a little more effort to modifty the game for the PSP. Very possible.

ActorJ · « **Reply #22 on:** May 13, 2003, 09:06:30 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Nintega
The type of media is of no concern because handheld games are meant to be short and easy to pick up and play. It isn't much of a concern on the console so shouldn't be for a handheld. Unless the game is nothing but FMV. Plus, no developer will want to spend all their resource and time creating a handheld game. That should be left to the console.

That's the kind of foolish, shortsighted thinking that has gotten Nintendo into trouble.

muzein · « **Reply #23 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:06:28 PM »

Am I the only one who thinks 4.5 inches is not very portable? Hell..the GBA was a lil to big for me, I find the SP is the first handheld that is truely portable. With its folding design and small size I can play games anywhere. 4.5 inches..then buttons..man this thing is gonna be UGLY.

Nintega · « **Reply #24 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:11:10 PM »

That was back in the N64 days, not with the Gamecube. You don't need all that space unless it's all FMV. And with a screen that small, you don't need DVD quality because you couldn't tell the difference. Just because the media on the PSP has more space doesn't mean the game will sell nor does it mean they will use all of it. Yeah, it's great that it has that much space but it isn't necessary for handheld games. Take a look at some of the GBA games. They look great and play great but the media it uses is cartridge. And as I've stated, handheld games are meant to be short. If you want to play a 50+ hour RPG/Adventure, stick to a console.

Uncle Rich AiAi · « **Reply #25 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:27:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Jollus
As far as why Sony is talking about this now, one word, hype. They want to hype up the PSP so people will wait and NOT buy gameboys. It is a bit of a catch 22, because if Nintendo lets loose with the plans for the next uber-gameboy it will have the same effect, lower GBA sales. Sony may not even have any hardware yet.

That's exactly what I was going to say. If you want to see my to opinion on this, see the similar thread in the Other Systems Discussion.
Nintendo should be worried. This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base. And damn Sony for turning handheld games into FMV. Damn them.

JoeFalco · « **Reply #26 on:** May 13, 2003, 10:47:22 PM »

We just have to wait and see what happens.

Being the loyal Nintendo goomba that I am, I hope PSP crashes and burns like the Gamegear in the long run.
(I still have my sister's Gamegear collecting dust that she gave me years ago. If l feel like wasting batteries, I'll sometimes play it.)

But that's just me!

odinfire · « **Reply #27 on:** May 14, 2003, 05:06:22 AM »

Do you people really think that Nintendo will let go of their major cash cow so easily. Lets think back for a minute. Exactly how many technologically superior portable products have come out since Gameboy's debut? At least the Sega GameGear and Neo-Geo Pocket to name a couple and both were stealthier and basically a better product then Gameboy. But ultimately however who is still around. NINTENDO.

Look at it this way. The problem Gamecube sports that PS2 does not is backwards compatibility. This is a good reason why PS2 is doing so well. At its first release, PS2 already had a huge gaming library. Gamecube... Only its launch titles. It is the same with Gameboy Advance SP and the new PSP machine. Except worse. People dont demand much graphically from portable games. Therefore many old Gameboy games still get played and Nintendo's portable software library is too huge for anyone to make a dent. Like the consoles, third party support will follow the largest userbase, and in this case its Nintendo. Sony and PSP will get put to shame. Sony actually has a big problem on their hands trying to bring a portable to market at this time. They should have done it a little earlier in the PS2's career. Ideally, the PSP should come out when Nintendo's portable technology advances enough that backward compatibility is not an option for them. That way both systems would have equal footing. Price point will also be a major concern. Sony has a reputation of being slightly overpriced not to mention a producer of "bulky" machines. The only way I would pay over $150.00 for a portable machine is if it let me play DVD's as well. Evidently there is not a chance for that in the new Sony machine. The specs for their new portable seem a bit uncomfortable. Well I guess we will see, but keep in mind, this is one area where Nintendo has the absolute MOST experience and expertise. Sony WILL have a very hard time contending.

aoi tsuki · « **Reply #28 on:** May 14, 2003, 08:23:28 AM »

Quote
Do you people really think that Nintendo will let go of their major cash cow so easily. Lets think back for a minute. Exactly how many technologically superior portable products have come out since Gameboy's debut? At least the Sega GameGear and Neo-Geo Pocket to name a couple and both were stealthier and basically a better product then Gameboy.

And exactly how many of these were marketed well enough? The Game Gear was the only real competitor for the Gameboy (in the US). Sega's marketing power around that time was at its peak. Sony is a marketing superpower; the Playstation name alone will sell on its own. They may have a hard time stealing marketshare from the GBA, but then they could just pull a Playstation and rope in a new gamers. There's plenty of people who don't have a GBA.

About a year ago, i remember reading about a device Sony was working on that would play games, in addition to audio and video, and connect to multiple Sony devices (PS2, camera, cell phones). This looks like that device. If it is, well, without speculating too much let's just say it means *very* good things for Sony.

i'm not forecasting doom for the GBA at the hands of the PSP, especially since Nintendo has the main advantage of quality games, but they need to look at this as a real threat, and as Nintendo fans we need to view it as such as well. Nintendo can't simply sit back and expect GBA to continue to sell itself. Your enemy is most vulnerable when they think they've won.

ActorJ · « **Reply #29 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:22:10 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Nintega
That was back in the N64 days, not with the Gamecube. You don't need all that space unless it's all FMV. And with a screen that small, you don't need DVD quality because you couldn't tell the difference. Just because the media on the PSP has more space doesn't mean the game will sell nor does it mean they will use all of it. Yeah, it's great that it has that much space but it isn't necessary for handheld games. Take a look at some of the GBA games. They look great and play great but the media it uses is cartridge. And as I've stated, handheld games are meant to be short. If you want to play a 50+ hour RPG/Adventure, stick to a console.

I love how you pass off your OPINIONS as gospel. Let me see how many "short" games I have in my portable collection. Hmm Dragon Warrior 3? Golden Sun? The Lost Age? Castlevania? Zelda?

Give me a break. You still have the mindset that might have been appropriate in 1988. The truth is, any game makes a good portable game, as long as you can save it at any time.

I think you underestimate the importance of storage space. With all that space at your disposal, you can have CD quality sound, kiss MIDI Goodbye. You can have Tony Hawk on the go, with the original soundtrack, and more. Having more space doesn't automatically mean you have to have bigger, longer games (although I am not opposed to that) it means you can make the same short pick up and play games better in every way.

Nevermind the fact that it will be much more attractive to developers. Do you have any idea how espensive those rom cartidges are? Very. There is a very good reaosn why no one has yet used a 256mbit cart, even though they have been available for a long time. Cost. There is a reason why even A-list titles like Aria of Sorrow ship on 64mbit carts, and the only games that are relased on the larger 128mbit carts are those that a garnteed to sell like crazy, Golden Sun 2, for instance.

There are so many advantaged to a disc based medium it's not even funny. And with todays technolgy, you dont really even have to worry about battery drain or load times. Just look at the loadtimes on gamecube games. Almost none.

Nintega · « **Reply #30 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:47:27 PM »

Regardless what my opinions are, you've already made up your mind that the PSP will sell based on the storage capacity alone. I'm a little more optimistic just because it's all on paper and Sony has yet to show the hardware, nor the games. If storage was such a concern, developers would be complaining left and right about not enough space on DVD media, Gamecube disc format, Dreamcasts GDROM. Storage does not determine how good a game is. You can make a good game, it all depends on how you utilize the hardware.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #31 on:** May 14, 2003, 12:59:17 PM »

"This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base."

Sony's current user base for the PSP is 0. Nintendo's for the GBA is numbering in the tens of millions. User bases do NOT translate from home consoles to portable consoles, and REALLY hope publishers realize this. If that were true, the Gamecube would be selling just as well as the GBA, but it *isn't*. Portable systems and home systems are two completely different areas and good name recognition in one does almsot nothing in the other (as is evident again with the GCN and GBA).

ActorJ · « **Reply #32 on:** May 14, 2003, 01:54:55 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Nintega
Regardless what my opinions are, you've already made up your mind that the PSP will sell based on the storage capacity alone. I'm a little more optimistic just because it's all on paper and Sony has yet to show the hardware, nor the games. If storage was such a concern, developers would be complaining left and right about not enough space on DVD media, Gamecube disc format, Dreamcasts GDROM. Storage does not determine how good a game is. You can make a good game, it all depends on how you utilize the hardware.

there is a reason developers are not complaining about storage on PS2, GC, or Xbox, and it doesn't take a Genius to figure out that that's because all three of those systems have a cheap media with plenty of space.

That is not the case with GBA. Developers are alwasy complaining that GBA carts do not have enough space, and the ones that do cost an arm and a leg. They had the same complaint about the N64.

You need to stop looking at the handheld market as a market for tetris, and relaize that like all things, it is growing an changing.

I am certainly not suggesting, as you claim, that the PSP will sell on storage capacity alone. It has plenty of other things going for it, like a beautiful high rez screen and a full fledged sound system. However, I think you miss underdsatnd why the storage media is sucha huge coup for sony. IT'S CHEAP! That is what will attract developers, for the same reason the PSX atracted developers away from N64. there is a higher profity margin with disc based media. The fact that the huge capicty will allow for CD quality sound and extras galore is just icing on the cake for developers.

No one is saying, at least no sane people, that the PSP will spell the death of the Gameboy. But it WILL shake the portable market up something fierce, and Nintendo will finally be forced to respond with something more that an incremental upgrade. The GBA SP is one cool little unit, but I don't think anyone could argue that it was underpowered from the start, Nintendo should have been aiming somehwere around the saturn mark for 2d grpahics quality and sound quality. now they will be forced to do what they should have already done.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #33 on:** May 14, 2003, 02:04:28 PM »

ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

ActorJ · « **Reply #34 on:** May 14, 2003, 02:12:36 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
"This is Sony for crying out loud, with a huge user base."

Sony's current user base for the PSP is 0. Nintendo's for the GBA is numbering in the tens of millions. User bases do NOT translate from home consoles to portable consoles, and REALLY hope publishers realize this. If that were true, the Gamecube would be selling just as well as the GBA, but it *isn't*. Portable systems and home systems are two completely different areas and good name recognition in one does almsot nothing in the other (as is evident again with the GCN and GBA).

You are completely confused as to the real reason why the GC is not doing well. It has nothing to do with name recognition, andhas everything to do with a nugled product and poor markting. Let's take Sont out of the equation, because they had headstart of a year. While MS and Nintendo entered this generation on equal footing, MS is now firmly in second place, while nintendo struggles to meet it's tagrets? Why? Because the casual gamer drives the market, not the hardcore gamer than read planet gamecube. The casual gamer likes the xbox because the commercials and the Xbox has a bad ass image. The average gamer doesn't know the differecne between the hardware of the various system. They dont know that the Xbox in more powerful than the gamecube which is more powerful than the Ps2. They just don't care about that stuff. What they do care about is that nintendo unveilded a purple cube with a handle two years ago, and while you and i both know what a great system it is, and what great games it has, all the casual gamer really notices is that it is a purple cube with a handle.

The fact that the GameCube is doing so badly against the Ps2 and Xbox has nothing to do with name recognition or lack thereof, and everything to do with bad marketing. Similarly, the success of the GBA has very little do with the fact that it is a gameboy, and everything to do with the fact that it HAS NEVER seen any worth competition, only half assed efforts from companies that could not afford to be in it for the long haul. The SP model is a little different, this is perhaps the first product since the SNES that Nintendo haes designed and marketed effectively, and it shows. Everyone that see my SP wants one, even people who have never wanted a portable system in thier lives.

People need to stop making excuses for Nintendo. Nintendo deserves to be in the position they are in today, they bought and paid for it. All this crap about Nintedo innovating? Give me a break? GC-GBA link up? No one really cares about that. E-reader? Just reminds me of bar code battler, from what, like 1992?

The fact that Sony is releasing a very hgih powered handheld, and will no doubt market the thing to death is good for us, the consumer, and a wake up call for Nintendo, one that tells them that they cannot caost along relying in thier handheld to support thier consoles anymore, nor can they afford to be behind on technology. Sony is now the Jones', and Nintendo needs to keep up.

Don't take this a a rant against Nintendo. I LOVE nintendo, I grew up with Nintendo. I love Zelda, and I love that feeling of Nostalgia I get when I play my NES. But at some point, people need to wake up and realize that Nintendo has not been operating like a business since around 1997.

ActorJ · « **Reply #35 on:** May 14, 2003, 02:22:04 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

Yes. you are right. Development costs for the PSP will be higher, that is to be expected. However, profit margins will also be much higher. Is is not a matter of cartirdges being "slightly" more expensive, the difference is great. compare 7-10 dollars a unit for a GBA cart, to less than a dollar for a DVD disc. Also, compare that GBA games must be sold for 10-20 dollars less than console games, and it's easy to understand why we see worthwhile software from the big players, with the big name game amkers, like Konami, Capcom, Nitendo, Sega, and shovelware from everyone else. The big names are the only ones who can afford to develop decent games for the GBA.

Is Nintendo working on a successor to the GBA? No doubt. Let's all hope they are planning a new high capacity, cheap medium, rather than trying to maintina backward compatabilty with carts. Carts killed the N64, and make no mistake, the same thing *could* happen with the gameboy. Ninteno has under estimated Sony before.

ActorJ · « **Reply #36 on:** May 14, 2003, 02:23:35 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
ActoJ: GOD's are cheaper than the PS2's DVD's I'm fairly certain and that never attracted too many developers, if any. And where have you heard developers complaining about lack of space on GBA carts? I haven't heard that at all and certainly haven't SEEN it. And carts may be slightly more expensive, but remember that developing for a much more advanced console with the possibility of games larger than a gigabyte, development costs will be MUCH higher, which translates to more expensive games for the consumer. Besides, let's not be naive here and actually think Nintendo will stick it out with the GBA after this PSP is released. I'm sure they're adapting the GB-X to at least match what the PSP's specs are. Maybe that's why Iwata said he's not worried about the PSP because he knows the GB-X is coming.

Yes. you are right. Development costs for the PSP will be higher, that is to be expected. However, profit margins will also be much higher. Is is not a matter of cartirdges being "slightly" more expensive, the difference is great. compare 7-10 dollars a unit for a GBA cart, to less than a dollar for a DVD disc. Also, compare that GBA games must be sold for 10-20 dollars less than console games, and it's easy to understand why we see worthwhile software from the big players, with the big name game amkers, like Konami, Capcom, Nitendo, Sega, and shovelware from everyone else. The big names are the only ones who can afford to develop decent games for the GBA.

Is Nintendo working on a successor to the GBA? No doubt. Let's all hope they are planning a new high capacity, cheap medium, rather than trying to maintina backward compatabilty with carts. Carts killed the N64, and make no mistake, the same thing *could* happen with the gameboy. Ninteno has under estimated Sony before.

Armed · « **Reply #37 on:** May 14, 2003, 05:05:00 PM »

Well i think that Nintendo can still dominate the handheld market since most people already own a GBA or GBA SP anyway. What they just have to do now is start to make a new handheld that will blow aways Sonys PSP and try to release it like a year after the PSP comes out with alot of preview advertising of their new handheld so people will know that there is something better that is coming; i mean who would buy a handheld that will be outdated away by another handheld a year after. Also you don't really know the battery life of Sonys PSP or price so i don't think there is anything to worry about.

......or is there (remembering how the rise of PS started)?

EggyToast · « **Reply #38 on:** May 14, 2003, 05:27:38 PM »

The format proposed for the PSP isn't a DVD. It's a proprietary DVD format, on small discs in a case. Yes, it's cheaper, but, similar to 3" DVD's, they're still more expensive than DVDs.

One of the great things about smaller cartridges is that it forces developers to do MORE with LESS. They optimise the code, they keep games graphically simple (since graphics take up a lot more space compared to gameplay code), and they emphasize the gameplay. That's GOOD. They say "This game can be no larger than 64k."

Compared to a format where they can just dump some crap on the disc and call it a game. Yes, that *might* lead to better games, but the only real difference in graphics between the N64 and the PS was the FMV and sound. But the loading times on the PS were awful, and are awful on the PS2 as well. You think anyone wants to wait for a new level to load up on their handheld while they're waiting for the bus to come?

I love playing Puyo Pop on my GBA because I just pop it in, play a few games, and, hey if in a few minutes I can't play anymore, that's it.

So, if these games have a huge 1.8 dvd-type format, how are they going to save games? The PSP is going to write to these discs, too? Better not bump it while recording your game! Better have a good few minutes to wait while the game accesses the right portion of the disc and writes to the disc and updates the TOC file!

Cartridges are beautiful for quick and easy gameplay.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #39 on:** May 14, 2003, 05:39:58 PM »

"You are completely confused as to the real reason why the GC is not doing well. It has nothing to do with name recognition, andhas eerything to do with a nugled product and poor markting."

My POINT was that user bases don't transfer over systems, otherwise the Gamecube would have a large user base REGARDLESS of whether they marketed or not. THe Gamecube has great support from Nintendo and I haven't seen any more PS2 commercial from Sony than Gamecube commercials from Nintendo. Marketing and product isn't the WHOLE reason- don't try to boil it down to just one or two reasons because it's not as simple as that.

What I was getting at was that just because the PSX and PS2 did well does NOT mean the PSP is going to do well. They're completely different kinds of systems, and currently Nintendo has tens of millions of users while Sony has NONE. I realise Sony COULD break into the market, but nobody should EXPECT soley because Sony did well in the home console region.

aoi tsuki · « **Reply #40 on:** May 14, 2003, 06:26:06 PM »

i believe it was PS2 IGN that stated that save data would be handled by Memory Sticks. Magic Box had a picture comparing a regular CD/DVD disc and a PSP disc. There was no case. And even if they did write to the UDM drive, i'm sure there wouldn't been a problem with writing -- Sony's learned how to make durable discs during their many years of producing Minidisc equipment. An MD has to take a pretty hard shock (like a drop to the floor) while writing in order to corrupt the data being written. Come to think of it, the disc inside a Minidisc is exactly 2.5 inches.

thepoga · « **Reply #41 on:** May 14, 2003, 09:48:12 PM »

sony's discs will be inside cartridges. wonder how big they will be though.

Uncle Rich AiAi · « **Reply #42 on:** May 14, 2003, 10:04:51 PM »

mouse_clicker - I know the PSP has no user base, but I'm sure it does now. I bet it is the same people who believed in the PS2 hype, and are now drooling at the PSP specs, forgeting the fact it is vaporware. Remember, the Playstation name sells.

ActorJ - You made a good point I forgot to put in my last post. Cartidges vs optical disc. For sure, developers will go for the optical disc since it is cheaper. And if Nintendo do make their next Game Boy using optical disc, it is not possible to play old Game Boy games. Which will reduce the games library to zero.

And I want to make another point. When will Nintendo release their next Game Boy? Or can for that matter? They can't too soon, because they just released the SP, or they will piss a lot of people off. Remember the Genesis and the Sega CD and 32x? My guess is for a least 2 years.

Jollus · « **Reply #43 on:** May 14, 2003, 10:28:51 PM »

Well Nintendo is planning on a 2005 launch of their next home console right? I would expect the next Gameboy to lauch around the same time. Nintendo has stated that they won't let sony and microsoft get a head start on them the next round. Unless sony is farther along then they seem to be at this point it is unlikely that they will launch in 2004. Meaning that the new GB and the PSP might be releasing within months of eachother.

pulse · « **Reply #44 on:** May 15, 2003, 02:29:22 AM »

I'm thinking that Sony could possibly be trying to scare Nintendo into releasing a disc based medium for their next handheld console. This would effectively reduce their gaming library back to square one, equivalent to where Sony stands. This way, they are both on a level playing field and the PlayStation brand name can work the magic that Sony thinks it will. Unless Nintendo has a brainstorming idea to have a slot for the old GBA and GB games and another one to insert the new disc-based medium they come up with, if that is what they decide to do. That would definately make it a challenge for Sony to compete with something that has a backlog of 400+ games and new ones in 3D to match what Sony is offering.

nitsu niflheim · « **Reply #45 on:** May 15, 2003, 04:10:35 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: pulse
I'm thinking that Sony could possibly be trying to scare Nintendo into releasing a disc based medium for their next handheld console. This would effectively reduce their gaming library back to square one, equivalent to where Sony stands. This way, they are both on a level playing field and the PlayStation brand name can work the magic that Sony thinks it will. Unless Nintendo has a brainstorming idea to have a slot for the old GBA and GB games and another one to insert the new disc-based medium they come up with, if that is what they decide to do. That would definately make it a challenge for Sony to compete with something that has a backlog of 400+ games and new ones in 3D to match what Sony is offering.

The slot for GBA and GB games could also serve as a slot for a memory card of sorts when playing a disc-based game, thus giving the extra slot more than one use.

oohhboy · « **Reply #46 on:** May 15, 2003, 06:45:28 AM »

Or you have the disc in a cartiage which has a memchip installed(Dirt cheap at this point) which uses the old connectors for read and write to chip. Then have the reading head come out from the side, not from the bottom. That would allow you to have both. Cutting GB support would be ok at this point while still keeping GBA support. The slot would look like the current slot but closer to the middle as disc in case would come out square. The disc would stick out of th slot but would be under the body GBNX.

jarob · « **Reply #47 on:** May 15, 2003, 06:54:58 AM »

Somone finally said it. Just use the cartridge slot for memory. nitsujdark
you took the words out of my mouth.

oohhboy · « **Reply #48 on:** May 15, 2003, 07:27:40 AM »

Yeah but you end up with two slots which would make the thing look like one of those SNES adapter things which is butt ugly and big. Also discs that small in a losse packaging is asking for trouble. You have to go MD style. Those Sony Mem sticks arn't that small either. Having separate mem device on a portable is also asking people to lose things. Think about the kids who are going to buy it. One of the points or portables is that you can just plug and play without having to worry about which mem card you have your save file on.

Having a build-in chip in the cartilage to store dta would allow devs to buy only what they need, with th added bonus that if they have smller save files, they pay less for th chip.

egman · « **Reply #49 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:14:44 AM »

On the media issue, I think we the advantage of the PSP is not as great as it seems. Recently Nintendo has made some invenstments in Rom technology that is so easy to implement that it is possible to utilize on todays GBA. I don't know the specifics, but GB roms have already been mentioned as easily possible.

There might be a cool factor to those mini discs that the PSP is going to use, but I would prefer a lighting fast rom anyday. But I'm only a customer, I have no idea how the mini discs may benefit developers, but I doubt it will be beneficial when games start becoming exclusively 3D. It takes a lot more time to develop a 3D game, where as a tiny team can slam together a great game in a half of year or less on current GBA hardware. That is only sepculation, however. This all really hinges upon whether or not people are ready for a 3D handheld. I truly wish handhelds can stay 2D, but Sony is quite capable of selling the concept to consumers. They did with the PSX, and that is why Nintendo needs to nip this is the bud pronto. They can't keep their plans completely underwraps, nor can they attempt a half hearted effort at advertising. They need to start playing Sony's game and hype their wares as if people cannot live without them.

ActorJ · « **Reply #50 on:** May 15, 2003, 09:10:57 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: EggyToast

So, if these games have a huge 1.8 dvd-type format, how are they going to save games? The PSP is going to write to these discs, too? Better not bump it while recording your game! Better have a good few minutes to wait while the game accesses the right portion of the disc and writes to the disc and updates the TOC file!

Cartridges are beautiful for quick and easy gameplay.

The system has a memory stick slot. It wiall save to the memory stick.

Can we all stop being fools here? Better yet, can we stop taking sony for a fool? It's really quite stupid.

ActorJ · « **Reply #51 on:** May 15, 2003, 09:13:49 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: aoi tsuki
i believe it was PS2 IGN that stated that save data would be handled by Memory Sticks. Magic Box had a picture comparing a regular CD/DVD disc and a PSP disc. There was no case.

Uh, look again. There most certainly was a case. Or read all the press releases which specifically mention that the dics is housed in a cartrige.

NWR_Lindy · « **Reply #52 on:** May 15, 2003, 12:45:16 PM »

Great discussion guys. My thoughts...

- Nintendo should switch media to a proprietary disc format to match Sony. It's time. They don't want the GameBoy to become the portable N64 - developers flocking over to Sony's machine because the format is cheaper to develop for and offers more storage capacity. Handheld GameCube anyone? It's a perfect candidate, they just need to shrink it (and it's already pretty darn small).

- There is no disadvantage to having more storage capacity. The whole "ROM is better because it forces developers to do more with less" philosophy is pure Nintendo propaganda. Good developers will make good games regardless of format, bad developers will make bad games regardless of format. But given a choice, developers will always choose the format with more storage space because its one less problem to code around. It also lets them add more bells and whistles. I can hear it now: "We could develop this game for GBA, but with the PSP's extra storage space we can add a Tony Hawk-style stereo soundtrack. That would be cool."

- Remember that the PSP discs are proprietary. If the PSP directly accepted PSOne CD-ROMs that would be scary, because it would immediately have a built-in library of 400+ games with no porting development necessary. The PSP's use of proprietary 4.5" DVD-ROMs cuts down on its immediate access to the PSOne library. This works in Nintendo's favor because only so many games can be imported at once (and they'll no doubt be upgraded for the PSP, adding more time to the porting process).

- I highly doubt Nintendo will dump backwards compatibility even if it does switch media. Like you guys have said, I'm sure they'll do something like have a GBA cartridge slot double as a memory card slot. Backwards compatibility is one of the GameBoy's biggest strengths and a huge market differentiator.

- Don't underestimate the power of the Playstation brand. The mainstream will buy pretty much anything with the Playstation name on it. Playstation is perceived as "cool" and "hip". Don't forget that. Brand loyalty is one of the reasons Nintendo dominated the 80's and early 90's.

- a 2005 worldwide launch of the GameCube and GameBoy successors would be great. Attack on both fronts and give Sony no room to move.

silks

Jollus · « **Reply #53 on:** May 15, 2003, 01:20:47 PM »

Check out this article over at C-Net
http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-1001675.html?tag=fd_top

Look down near the bottom.

Quote
Nintendo of America Vice President Perrin Kaplan didn't seem too concerned during an interview at E3. "We really don't know that much about it, and it's going to be 18 months before anyone sees one," Kaplan said of the PSP. "A lot can happen in 18 months."

Does that just sound like a huge tease to anyone else?
You know what Sony has done to me? Gotten me Hyped about the new GAMEBOY not their PSP.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #54 on:** May 15, 2003, 01:45:43 PM »

Perrin Kaplan, ever the Jedi Master with her Mind Tricks.

ActorJ · « **Reply #55 on:** May 15, 2003, 01:50:38 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Jollus
Check out this article over at C-Net
http://news.com.com/2100-1043_3-1001675.html?tag=fd_top

Look down near the bottom.

Quote
Nintendo of America Vice President Perrin Kaplan didn't seem too concerned during an interview at E3. "We really don't know that much about it, and it's going to be 18 months before anyone sees one," Kaplan said of the PSP. "A lot can happen in 18 months."

Does that just sound like a huge tease to anyone else?
You know what Sony has done to me? Gotten me Hyped about the new GAMEBOY not their PSP.

That's Nintendo greatest problem. They do not generate hype! They sit on everything fro ever and ever until the last minute, but by that time, everyone is already hyped for the competetors prodouct. While I certainly do antitcpate the next gameboy, I anticipate it with a sense of nervousness, that it may be another N64, rather with a sense of excitement. That's not good.

Well, I think there is one thing we can all agree on:

Sony's anouncement is about a year early. While I disagree with some people
who belive that Sony threw this together overnight, I also don't think that
Sony has a working protype yet either.

Ok, now. Sony obviously has a very good idea of what the final system will
be. They know exaclty what the screen will be like. They know what type of
porcessor they will use, they know what 3d techonologies they will emply.
They know what the sound system will be capable of. They have designed an
all new media, which is no doubt been optimized for this very application.
The know that it will have a USB 2.0 port, and a memory stick interface. The
know basically everything short of details, like clock speed.

Now, it should be clear to everyone, that based on the above, and the
rumours that have been going around for nearly a year, that Sony has been
working on this for a long time. While it would seem they have not yet
finalized the physical design of the unit, nor the control scheme, they
definitly know where they are going with it.

That's said, they anounced a product a year and a half before they expect to
release it, which serves only one purpose, as others have said, to take the
steam out of Nintendos GBA sales, and create a buzz. I do not know if they
will succeed with the former, but they certainly have accomlished the
latter. I, as a devout Gameboy fan, can stop thinking about the PSP and the
possibilities in entails. The PSP is the talk of e3, and has spawned for
than a dozen pages long threads on this forum alone. Every major news media
outlet covered the story. As Sony continue to throw a bone now an then
throughout the months ahead, people will become more and more hyped and
excited about the product. Sony will have carved out a user base, as with
the PS2, before the product even hits the market. Watch and see.

Now, I wonder what the market it that Sony is trying to reach. If you ask
me, it is actyally not the gameboy market. In fact, I do not belive Sony is
planning to go after the traidtional handheld market at all, sony is
planning to chnage what the handheld market is. Sony is certainly not
planning another gameboy clone, like the wonderswan, or the neo geo pocket.
Sony is planing something all new. Sony is planning to chnage the way we
think about portable games, and revolutionize the portable market, a market
that in my mind, has been stagenent for a LOOOOONG time. Like it or not,
Sony are the real innovators in the games industry. nintendo likes to think
they are, but as much as I love Nintendo, I have to admit that Nintendo
would rather not innovate, short of making quirky games that appeal to a few
out of many. Remeber back to 1994 when we first heard whisper of a Nintendo
CD add on for SNES? Remeber how that played out with Nintendo hemming and
hwaing, and eventually abandoning the project altogether, and returning to
carts, this, as the entire PC industry was embracing CD rom, and sega and
sony were leading the way in the console realm.

Nintendo, like it's hardcore fans, hate change. They fight against it, and
even turn thier noses up at people who embrace it. Portable games should be
short, and simple they say, while at the same time every GBA game review
under the sun closes with "if we had one complaint, it is that the game is
too short". I want my 2d, 3d has no place on a handheld! Well, I have news
for you, I like 2d games too. Some games just work better in 2d, like
castlevania, for instance, or strategy games, and so on. But who can argue
that the wind waker is a lot more fun that Link to the past?

The Gameboy's days are not numbered. Yet. But Nintendo does have some
choices to make. They can do what they have always done, or they can grow
with the times, and that includes gorwing in the portable market, which is
about the chnage big time. They cannot underestimate the imapct that Sony
will have on the handheld market. And they cannot count on thier core
audience od 10-13 year olds either, because this is the group that is the
MOST suseptable to hype, and the most lustful over the "most powerful"
system.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #56 on:** May 15, 2003, 01:57:27 PM »

"That's Nintendo greatest problem. They do not generate hype!"

18 months is a bit early to start hype- I'll bet you even the PSP will be absent from most people's minds in a few months. I agree Nintendo should starting working the hype machine earlier than they usually do, but this is far too early to pass judgement.

ActorJ · « **Reply #57 on:** May 15, 2003, 02:17:26 PM »

maybe. But i would bet that we will see sony keep the PSP on peoples minds througout the next few months, stringing peple along bit by bit.

When I said Nintendo doesn't hype, I don't just mean now. They NEVER hype. Not even with the gamecube. They stupidly marketed the performance of the GameCube using real world number. Very honourable of them sure, but helpful to them? not in the least. the average system buyer doesnt know that the Xbox can actually do 100,000 polygons per second only if the game has no sound, no UI, no textures, and no effects. That doesn't matter to them. All they see, is Xbox 100,000, GC 12,000.

Hmm.

Nintendo has to play the game.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #58 on:** May 15, 2003, 02:49:33 PM »

Yeah, Nintendo does need to advertise more, that's a fact, but that doesn't pertain to the situation at hand if you didn't mean they should be hyping now.

And even Sony won't advertise the PSP 18 months before release, if it will indeed be released at the end of 2004 (where did you guys hear that?). I doubt we'll see anything about the PSP in the public eye util at least next summer at the very earliest.

And people, please realize that simply making a really powerful handheld is not a surefire way to gain success in the industry- it doesn't even work well in the console industry (look at the N64's sales compared to the PSX's, or Gamecube and XBox sales compared to the PS2's). It seems a lot of people think Nintendo's in trouble soley because of a spec sheet Sony's released.

oohhboy · « **Reply #59 on:** May 15, 2003, 06:09:31 PM »

The market has not been stagnet. You need to wait for the technology to catch up so you can implement it. Could you seriously imagine 2 years ago whether such a hand held would be fesiable without carrying a car battery? Power saving, cool chipsets are not on the cutting edge of th RnD dollar. Speed and size and heat is. If ROM technology really can compete with disc based sysytems on the handheld, then say go for it. If within 2 years you can get close to 2 gigs on a ROM at comparable prices like within $1/$.50 of discs, good. We already know that Nintendo has invested in technology that quadrupues(?) the amount of space on a ROM. The thing is why have two slots when you can have one? Phyiscally it can be done. It sure beats having two lots, we are talking about a handheld here people. Not the next SNES import adapter.

ActorJ · « **Reply #60 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:37:10 PM »

I'm sorry, but quadrupling the space on a rom is not enough. That STILL only gives us 130mb tops. Yeah, that is a lot more than what we have today, but if you honeslty belive that that will be as cheap to manufacture as an optical dics, you are seriously dreaming. Fruther to that, to go up against an optical media with 1.8gb of space from a marketing standpoint is asking for trouble.

oohhboy · « **Reply #61 on:** May 16, 2003, 02:16:06 AM »

What are you on actor. Current average size is 128Mb. The larges for a N64 ROM is 512Mb. There is no "limit" as to how big it is, it's a soft-limit. Course if you were to quad existing tech(1999), you still only get 256MB. The reference to one slot is in another thread where I state that you can have mem and the disc in a cartliage all in the one unit and use the old connector to write to mem and play old games.

NWR_Lindy · « **Reply #62 on:** May 16, 2003, 09:04:36 AM »

I'm with ActorJ on this one. There's no way that Nintendo can put a ROM-based GameBoy up against a disc-based PSP and convince the public that their system is cutting-edge. It's just not going to happen...the public is too smart (or too ignorant, depending on how you look at it).

People used to say "It's all about the games", but it's really coolness factor first, the games second, that sells a system. What's the first thing that people say about the GBA SP? "That looks SO cool!" They don't say, "That looks like it plays GREAT games!"

silks

ActorJ · « **Reply #63 on:** May 16, 2003, 09:18:46 AM »

1 megabyte = 8 megabits.

N64 roms are not up to 512mb, they are up to 512mbits, which is 64megabytes.

GBA roms are up to 256mbits, not 265mbytes. 256mbits is 32mbytes.

It is not a soft limit, as GBA can only address a block of 32mbytes or smaller. flash carts that have more than 256mbits actually use two banks of 256mbits to get around that problem.

Even with Quad tech, that means the largest a rom size can be is around 128mbytes. Which is the same number I gave above, except i rounded it off to 130. I accept your apoligy for talking out of you ***.

128mebytes, although fairly sizable, is nowhere even close to 1.8gb. it only a tiny fraction of that space. Certainly not enogh for cd quality soundtrack, et al.

But the big issue is the expense. Like I say, developers do everything they can to squeeze there game into the smallest cartridge they can. nearly all GBA games come on 8mbyte cartidges, even though 16mb, and 32, mb carts are availble. WHY? Cost. Rom memory is expensive. Very expensive. you start getting into the larger sizes, let along quad tech sizes, and you are looking at a cost of 10-20 dollars just for the cartridge.
That is the reason why N64 games were so insanely expensive next to Playstation games, the one and only reason. Also the same reaosn why N64 never saw a greates hits style re-release program, it just was not cost effective. The profit margin on N64 games was so low, that it was almost not worht it for third parties from a busuiness standpoint. Ghis is why we saw great game coming from Nintendo, while nearly everything from third parties was shovelware. The same issue is happing with the GBA, although it is less apparent because Nintendo has since lowered is license fees. But we still only see high quality games from the big players like Konami and Capcom, and sega and Nintendo itself, and shovelware crap from everyone else.

Roms cost money, no matter which way to slice it. And this is the reason why it is time to give them up.

I mean, in a perfect worl our PC's would not have to have hard drives, we could just put 40gigs of ram in there. But none of us want to pay 10,000 dollars for a PC.

The historic problems with CD based media are nearly irradicated. No longer are load time a huge problem, (most GC games have close to Zero load times, eh?), the newset drives are incredibly energy efficient too.

NWR_Lindy · « **Reply #64 on:** May 16, 2003, 11:04:04 AM »

Yeah, ROMs suck.

silks

Jollus · « **Reply #65 on:** May 16, 2003, 11:35:24 AM »

I realize that it is now a forgoten tech, but a few years ago there was a bunch of hype about these tiny little discs that they were going to use in MP3 players. The tech was called DataPlay, and it was only about as big as a quarter. I think they came in 256meg, 512meg, and maybe 1gig sizes. It took them to long to get it to market and HD Mp3 players came out first. So it just kinda died. I think there was only one or two players that supported it.

That would be a killer medium for a handheld game system though. Just make sure that there is hardware support for mp3 decoding or some other good audio compression, that way you don't have the whole disc full of music.

ActorJ · « **Reply #66 on:** May 16, 2003, 06:45:11 PM »

yep. lots of options for nintendo. just not carts again, dammit.

oohhboy · « **Reply #67 on:** May 16, 2003, 06:56:07 PM »

You noticed the little b's and the big B's? Damn man... I have never heard of that hard limit of how much the GBA can access. Even if true, you have already given a solution to that problem. Also you used a little b meaning bit not Bytes. Be carefull with your b's and B's will you. It makes a world of difference. Also don't round like that. That is just bad habit.

As for small load times for GC games, it's up to the developer. You have not played Turok yet have you?

ActorJ · « **Reply #68 on:** May 16, 2003, 09:06:50 PM »

no, have not played turok. ick.

Of course it is up to the developer, but that vast majority of GC games have minimal load times, or velverly disguised load times.

Solution to that problem? Hardly. Don't be so stubborn. Roms for the forseeable future will continue to be dramatically more expensive than optical media, especially in large sizes, such as 256mbit and higher. There is no way aroudn that. none.

oohhboy · « **Reply #69 on:** May 17, 2003, 05:49:31 AM »

Though unrelated to current debate. Funny that optical disc media could one day move on to mem sticks like those found in Star Trek? That would lead back to a form of the cartliage, but that is just me thinking.

Ok, ROMs arn't usable for next gen. Big IF here, just speculating. Nintendo say pulls something out of the hat? say a 1.8 GB ROM close to the same price. Slightly higher? competetivly so. Not saying it will happen. Just saying IF. Would it matter anymore?

Another thing in the air. The mem stick. Why have one? Why not have a build in chip with the disc to save games? The chip coul also double as game code holder for faster loading times.

ActorJ · « **Reply #70 on:** May 17, 2003, 09:36:04 AM »

well, if you built something into the disc-cartridge to save games, then not only do you require a more comlicated drive, because you would need some way to read the chip as well as the media itself, you reintorduice something that makes roms more expensive in the first place, a EEPROM. Did you happen to notice how mnay publishers cheaped out and went with password save early on? Furthermore, if it was takena stepp further, as you suggest, and used as a game code holder, or a cache, then it would need to be fairly large, again cancelling out the cost savings over a rom. It would be pointless too, because you could simply put the cache memory inside the system, and then it can be used by all game, instead of giving each game its own, which is really quite loony....

PLus, the memory stick is very flexible. Not only can it be used to save games, but if the unit has extra features, ala PS2, and we know it will, you could load MP3s onto the mem stick, or any other various things sony has thought of that we cant yet imagine.

Addtionally, a memory stick for save games would mean that it would be easy to copy the save files to your PC, and keep them safe. That way you don't have to keep buying memory sticks either, as you fill them up.

Ace · « **Reply #71 on:** May 17, 2003, 10:51:04 AM »

I'm not sure what type of media this is classified under, but Nintendo could use these for their next game boy. Btw, does anyone know if Constellation 3D is still around?

Edit: I checked Nasdaq and it turns out the company went bankrupt. Does that mean the technology is up for grabs? And if not who owns it? They could use this same type of media for the next home console or even license it out to movie companies. But I highly doubt the last part. That's not NIntendo's style

Edit 2: This same kind of technology can also be used on the next GC. On the clear discs they use, the information is layered which is why it can hold so much information. They state that a 20 layer disc can hold 95GB and when using a blue lazer, a terabyte is possible. That's a lot of space. That info can be found here

PIAC · « **Reply #72 on:** May 17, 2003, 02:24:48 PM »

that would be a very feaseable idea for the next gameboy...
if backwards compatability is that important, keep your gba/sp, i wont be that disapointed, and i think pretty much everyone in the world has owned a gameboy of some description at some time, so not like there would be a shortige of gb's if you wanted to relive some nostalgic fun.

oohhboy · « **Reply #73 on:** May 17, 2003, 11:55:41 PM »

Not inside the GB. Just the disc. You see, the current gameboy has a cartiage slot right? So you keep the slot but it also doubles as the interface for the chip, GBA games and a disc cartliage holder so you don't need a lid. And no I don't think you would use so thing as silly as EEPROM. Why not uses Mag RAM or FE RAM to save? Nice and cheap, non-volititle to 10 years and speed is not an issuse as you are only saving your game. Another thing, what if you don't have a computer? You would force customers to buy more sticks/delete games for a handheld. Ok for a console as your not going anywhere with it. As for that game code cache thing, just throwing ideas around.

EDIT: Had look at that link and DAMN!###! Who needs discs! Throws everything said out the window! and the tech is 2000, so more that likely to be usable TODAY! The hell with BLUERAY. But, big but, the company seems to have droped off the radar. But the tech is there. Who has it now?

EggyToast · « **Reply #74 on:** May 18, 2003, 12:36:32 PM »

Nintendo has already basically announced what they're goign to use for the next GB:

Here's a link to N-philes (I only found it because I remember posting in the thread when it came out. I read it on numerous sites, though, and it's not "faked"):
http://forums.n-philes.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8497

Nintendo has already invested a LOT of money in high-density, low-cost media. It's the same media type that Ace mentioned above -- it's stacked vertically, to keep down on size as well as maximize space.

Here's a link to Matrix Semiconductor's description of their main product (the one Nintendo would use):
http://www.matrixsemi.com/industry.shtml?8

They're one of the few companies who have patented a process for making the things at a very low cost with a high enough volume to satisfy manufacturing needs.

And, as is well known, non-moving parts will always last longer than moving parts (spinning discs).

So none of this "memory stick is for game saves" crap; looks like Nintendo is sticking with the cool factor and will probably simply issue a small cardslot for entire games in the next GB iteration. "memory sticks for entire games!" The argument could easily be "Sure, you could buy an oversized system with oversized discs that produce a lot of noise from the disc spinning up, or you could buy a small, practical system with entire games on one tiny, quiet card."

And do you know how much even Sony's memory stick costs? They're still charging $70 for the 64mb "magicgate" version, which is designed for smaller devices. Sure, it's a lot of space, but they don't make them in smaller sizes anymore. "hmm, 2 games, or 1 memory stick to save the games..."

oohhboy · « **Reply #75 on:** May 19, 2003, 03:26:59 AM »

I knew I missed something. Man, with this tech, it makes Sony look dumb. That mem stick you are talking abotu eggy, that is $70 for 64 megabit or megaByte right? becuase if it is bits, that is one hell of an expensive memstick at 10+ per meg.

aoi tsuki · « **Reply #76 on:** May 19, 2003, 04:53:48 AM »

Quote
They're still charging $70 for the 64mb "magicgate" version, which is designed for smaller devices. Sure, it's a lot of space, but they don't make them in smaller sizes anymore.

Which is why you buy a 128MB (megabyte) Lexar memory stick for around $50. MagicGate memory stick's "popularity" has really died in recent years, likely because no one wants to serialize their music and conform to Sony's check in/check out system just for better quality music. There's also the emerging Memory Stick Duo format (and another MS format i can't recall off-hand).

Curious to see how Sony sells MSs for the PSP, considering that, as far as i know, 8MB (64 megabit) cards aren't even packaged with Sony digital cameras anymore.

EggyToast · « **Reply #77 on:** May 19, 2003, 05:21:35 AM »

Yeah. You *can* find them online for a little cheaper, with the standard size 64mb one going for as low as $40. But that's online -- Sony's MSRP is still $65-70, and you can check that against any retail store in your area, as they're stocked in the Camcorder and Digital Camera section.

Sony has been really headstrong about trying to get its Memory Stick into wider usage, because they know they can make a lot of money off the thing. But as they're the only ones who incorporate their technology, it's only really useful if you have a lot of Sony stuff.

You can find smaller memory sticks, but they're usually overpriced for what you get. They're fond of chucking 8mb ones in with their camcorder products, so they may very well include a memory stick with their PSP. But yeah, I can't imagine people filling up the freebie 8mb one and being stuck buying a 64mb card at Best Buy for $60.

I agree somewhat with what ActorJ says about how Sony isn't necessarily making a product to compete directly with the GB, but rather a product that's similar yet different enough to justify the new product. I could see it being popular if it's touted as a "portable console" instead of a hand-held, but, well, are people really going to buy an outdated console that isn't truly portable? The GBA:SP is selling MUCH better than the original GB, and I'm sure a lot of that is because of the sleek design and, perhaps most importantly, the incredibly small form factor. You can't fit a 4.5" screen in your pocket, let alone a 4.5" screen with a disk-slot and controller buttons attached.

I agree that the Playstation name is a good one for gaming right now, but that doesn't mean it'll translate into every facet of gaming. People may see the PSP, especially if it launches with PS1 games, as a gimmick; an attempt to cash in on old tech and get some of the GB money, with a larger screen and 3D. They'll say things like "I already own these games and play them on my PS2, why buy them again so I can play them in the kitchen on a smaller screen?" With a larger screen and overall size, people won't say "Wow, I can just put this in my pocket and I can play these games I liked wherever!" Hell, some people thought the original GBA was too big!

Cell phone companies are starting to emphasize the downloading of games to cellphones -- even Verizon has a new commercial with their "can you hear me now" guy playing crappy basketball. Why cell phones? Because they're convenient *and* they're small. People just slip cell phones in their pocket without really planning for it, and cell phones only really exploded when they got below a certain form factor. People *like* small things when they're taking them places. The GBA:SP fits in a pocket even with a few games, cos the cartridges are so small. Does anyone honestly think that the GBA:SP would sell better if the screen was twice as big? No one would take them anywhere unless they were already carrying a bag. I mean, look at Apple's iPod -- ultra-small!

aoi tsuki · « **Reply #78 on:** May 19, 2003, 11:35:18 AM »

Quote
Yeah. You *can* find them online for a little cheaper, with the standard size 64mb one going for as low as $40. But that's online -- Sony's MSRP is still $65-70, and you can check that against any retail store in your area, as they're stocked in the Camcorder and Digital Camera section.

Last time i checked CompUSA (a few months ago), they had Lexar 128MB sticks for something like $55 -- a great price for retail. Since i don't use my Clie for an MP3 player much any more, a 128MB stick suffices nicely.

i think the word "portable" is being confused with "pocket-sized". Merriam-Webster defines portable as "capable of being carried or moved about". i'd like to add that in the area of electronics, "portable" also infers that the device is capable of operating being bound by wires, like those for power or an internet connection.

Given this definition, the PSOne is portable system, as is the Gamecube. Laptops are portable. From what i'd assume, the PSP will be portable, just not as small as the GBA SP. If i had to guess, i'd say it would be somewhere around the size of the NR-series Clies, just maybe an inch or so narrower. This would allow for stereo speakers and the wide screen.

i take Sony's claim that the PSP is the "Walkman of the 21st century" very seriously. While gaming is the immediate focus of the machine, playing other types of media (music, movies, etc.) would fall in line with the Walkman comment. If we`re to believe PS2 IGN's specs, ATRAC support would suggest that music playback would be possible, and the 16:9 ratio screen could be due in part to movie playback. i don't want to speculate much further, but i think i obvious Sony's got more than games planned. In any case, we'll see what's what when PSP graduates into a tangible item, with real specs.

oohhboy · « **Reply #79 on:** May 20, 2003, 03:31:21 AM »

"Walkman of the 21st century" is not going to go down well if you have to pay astronomical prices for MSs that you can't uses else where. Also if it is going to be the "Walkman of the 21st century", then pricing would be totally different from that of a games machine.

Kellk · « **Reply #80 on:** May 23, 2003, 10:22:59 AM »

Well, the way I see it is they already have the small media they need in the Gamecube disks. Spend the next year and a half shrinking the Gamecube down to handheld size and the war is over before it begins. You'll have a huge library of games already available, and save oodles of money by using existing tech vs coming up with a whole new system. Only thing to worry about is heat. Get to work, Nintendo!

ActorJ · « **Reply #81 on:** May 23, 2003, 12:44:35 PM »

sorry, but there is a lot more to worry about than heat. the GC was not designed as a handheld system and making it into one present more diffcult problems than shrinking components and reducing heat. The big one is making a sleak small handheld that somehow magically integrates a GC controler, which consots of five face buttons, two analog sticks, two analog triggers, and the z button. Oh, and a d-pad too. Good lukc with that.

Kellk · « **Reply #82 on:** May 23, 2003, 02:28:21 PM »

No apologies necessary, ActorJ. However, I still think that proper cooling would be the biggest hurdle such a conversion would face. Obviously the interface would need to be changed somewhat.

ActorJ · « **Reply #83 on:** May 23, 2003, 04:39:20 PM »

but how can you chnage the control interface and still have a portable GC? You can't. You need to find away to integrate all of the GCs controls in a handheld. I'd say that's pretty much impossible.

Sure you could chnage the controls, but then you could throw compatabilty out the window.

So there really is no point in Nintendo making a handheld GC. None.

Ocarina Blue · « **Reply #84 on:** May 23, 2003, 07:51:57 PM »

The sceen would be too small to read the text in most current GC games anyway.

oohhboy · « **Reply #85 on:** May 23, 2003, 07:55:37 PM »

I think he might be trying to get at some thing slightly different, I think he ment GC level graphics. But that would be overkill. At best you probaly can get DC level graphics on a handheld sized screen without it being a waste of time. Another issue that would stand in the way of such a device would be power compsumtion. More powerful your processors, more wattage it is going to need, shortening batterie life. It would be extreamly difficult to have something that runs at that level off a pair of AA for any longer than 10 minute assuming it can even supply enough power to start up.

Samwise Gamgee · « **Reply #86 on:** May 23, 2003, 08:52:40 PM »

i think if nintendo wanted to stay on top of the game in the portible market, they will realy have to step it up! nintendo should not make the system as powerful as the n64, cuz the ps will be able to contend with that! instead, make the next gameboy a portable version on the gamecube! or something comprible to it! and just kill sony like that!

oohhboy · « **Reply #87 on:** May 24, 2003, 12:36:39 AM »

DC level of graphics "Might" be managable with some short cuts, like not having 640x480 rez, only sampling up to 44KHz and having the colour pattle go no more than 32bit. If nintendo can get rid off the LCD and replace it with on of those new fanged Kodak(3M) sheet video displays which eats very little power. Also some of that non-volitile Mag-ram into the system. A modified striped down power book processor? Li ion power pack with recharge cradle, no more AAs. But the big milestone would be whether they can get 10 hours out of it with the light on and full sound while keeping it relatively light. that is alot of demands for a hand held even with custom graphics chips.

Kellk · « **Reply #88 on:** May 24, 2003, 08:53:53 AM »

Ooh! Sounds like you know yer stuff. What would *you* do, given unlimited resources? What components available now would be feasible for production in a year or so? Will that Kodak screen be ready for prime time?

ActorJ · « **Reply #89 on:** May 24, 2003, 09:33:11 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ocarina Blue
The sceen would be too small to read the text in most current GC games anyway.

Uh, no. A 640X480 screen is a 640X480 screen, be it a TV, a LCD, a laptop, a computer monitor. (actually, TVs are about 720X480, but that is because the pixels are a different shape...). If you have a TV, be it a 13 inch, a 27 inch, or a big screen RP TV, unless it is a HDTV, it runs are 640X480, the difference is in the size of the pixels. The type will be readbale no matter what to tot he variation in distance at which the screemn is viewed.

This is not even just thoery, it is fact. There is already an LCD available for the GC, and the games are perfectly readble, and in fact look better on the LCD than they do on your TV.

Don'tHate742 · « **Reply #90 on:** May 24, 2003, 12:10:47 PM »

Have they shown any photos of ANY HARDWARE?

I'm just wondering becuase i'm trying to find it.

It has no CHANCE, look how many people own a GBA, look how many companies have signed contracts with Nintendo to give the GBA a huge Library.

Hard-core gamers will buy it, but parents won't becuase it may be hard to take care of becuase it is small discs (right?).

aoi tsuki · « **Reply #91 on:** May 24, 2003, 06:37:11 PM »

Quote
There is already an LCD available for the GC, and the games are perfectly readble, and in fact look better on the LCD than they do on your TV.

Mind specifying which LCD screen you're referring to? The majority of screens made for consoles can't match tvs. i posted my review of the Intec Game Screen (http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=12&threadid=3803) a few days ago. Despite how much i like the screen, it's not for every game. If you're referring to the LCD screen shown at E3, mind giving us some impressions? i'm very interested in how it stacks up to other screens.

oohhboy · « **Reply #92 on:** May 25, 2003, 04:24:32 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Kellk
Ooh! Sounds like you know yer stuff. What would *you* do, given unlimited resources? What components available now would be feasible for production in a year or so? Will that Kodak screen be ready for prime time?

This more of a wish list, but it would be really cool and effective if you had to pull out the screen like they do in Earth: Final Confilct. That would make the screen managably wide for higher resolutions. Possibly a faster version of the string-arm chip currently used in the GBA, but a striped down version of a power PC prcessor would be nice. A mobile ATI GFX chip. Stereo sound with atleast 64 channels. A couple more buttons.

But to be abit more realistic, evn with unlimited resourses, Screen would be lower than 640 x 480 unless I cold have a screen that was about 10 Cm or more. If I could get my hands on a commerical version of the plastic sheet screens that can do 32 bit colours, that woul be real nice as you would be able to have 640 X 480 resolution as you can roll the screen out. But my bet is that you would end up possibley on another TFT screen which is sligtly larger than the current GBA with front light. The CPU would probaly be a strong-arm as in the GBA, only faster and possibly with more game centric funtions/opimisations. A power PC in such a small case would over heat(Better than x86 for those speeds). Mag RAM, 8MB would probaly be enough. An ATI designed GFX, A couple more buttons with an analouge D-pad(Also larger) with a attachable joystick would convert it to an analouge stick. Not quite as good, but you won't need all the assemably that has to go with it. Foresent Card for storage with re-write ability in certin sectors fo saved games. Wireless multi play for u to 8 players. Atleast 10 hours with light and sound on.

Both should have excellent dev tools and plays only games, but I would not midn cheap attach ments, programs that would allow it to have other functions.

But I trust Nintendo would bring out something exciting and realistic priced and cheeap with 10 hours on a battery with lights and sound. Max out at say a N64 graphics.

News:

Author Topic: Playstation Portable vs. GameBoy Advance: The War is On (Read 24165 times)