Author Topic: emulator  (Read 4492 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KnowsNothing

  • Babycakes
  • Score: 11
    • View Profile
emulator
« on: May 21, 2003, 12:40:33 PM »
that's right, i know nothing.  so, what is an emulator?  just, anybody, tell me anything and everything you know about them.  what they do (isn't to like play game boy  or NES games and what not on your computor?) just , tell me everything.
kka wakka wakka wakka wakka wakka wakka wa

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2003, 12:49:28 PM »
I would rather not.  They are illegal in many ways.
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline KnowsNothing

  • Babycakes
  • Score: 11
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2003, 12:50:44 PM »
oh.... whoops...
kka wakka wakka wakka wakka wakka wakka wa

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2003, 12:56:05 PM »
PSX emulation is legal though, as you can play your original CDs on your computer.  Check out www.epsxe.com for details.
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline RickPowers

  • IT Director
    Senior Editor
  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2003, 01:19:09 PM »
Emulators aren't illegal.  The ROM images that you usually need to use one ARE illegal.  There is nothing legal about making a copy of copyrighted software, despite all of the "experts" out there that will cite fallacies such as backup or "library" rights.  There are no such thing.  Those were rights specifically granted by the copyright holder, and nothing exists that makes it law.

That said, emulators are software that use your computer's processor and sound abilities to "pretend" that it's a different architecture.  It usually requires a very fast machine to emulate even the slowest of consoles.

If you want to discuss emulation as it pertains to the Game Boy or NES games running on GameCube, or the Game Boy Player, then by all means, discuss.  It's a very interesting topic, and relevant, too.  But the minute this discussion turns into anything ROM related, I'm shutting it down.
:: Rob "Rick Powers" Stevens
:: Senior Editor Emeritus
:: Personal Blog
:: Wii Number: 7294 0910 3012 6153

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2003, 02:06:38 PM »
Roger that... I was just a little concerned that it would inevitably head into illegal territory, and I wasn't sure what PGC's policy on emulation was.

There is no legal way of playing NES, SNES, N64, or GameBoy games on your computer though, unless you own some way of backing up your own cart.  The problem is that to play such games on your computer, you will need the images of the carts that you wish to play (ROMs).  Since the neccessary hardware isn't available to most people, you will have to acquire the ROMs elsewhere, which is in fact, illegal.

The actual emulation software though, will make your computer behave in much the same way as the original hardware.  It's quite useful to developers who want to make games, but aren't licensed developers for the system, and of course, in the case of PSX emulation, the emulator enhances the gameplay experience in every way.  (graphics, sound, control, etc.)
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline rpglover

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2003, 04:51:35 PM »
i'm not too sure about this but i think that if you own the original software, having the rom image is not illegal
i do not know if that is totally true but i think it is  
i call the big one bitey.

Offline ruby_onix

  • Obsessive Sailormoon Fanatic
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2003, 05:12:47 PM »
Quote

There is no legal way of playing NES, SNES, N64, or GameBoy games on your computer though, unless you own some way of backing up your own cart.


Actually, I think that's what Rick was just talking about. Most people know that distributing ROMs is illegal. But even making a "backup" in the first place is what companies like Nintendo have been trying to fight (and I'll take Rick's word on it that it's illegal).


Anyways, considering that KnowsNothing apparently knows nothing about emulators, and would like to know everything about them, I'll try my hand at a basic, yet in-depth explanation.


ROMs:
Cartrige-based videogames are programs built onto ROM (read-only memory) microchips. You plug them into the dedicated machine that they're built for, and they add their program to the videogame machine, making it do stuff. A long time ago, people figured out how to stick another kind of machine (usually called a Game Copier) between the cart and the system to read exactly what it is that the cart's doing to the system. Then it can copy a "ROM image" onto something like a floppy disk. You can take the cartrige out of the copier, and use the "ROM image" from the floppy disk instead, and the copier should be able to fool the system into thinking it's really the game cartrige. Since this "ROM image" is now on a floppy disk, you can easily give it anyone else with a game copier, or copy it to your PC, where you can then give it to almost anyone on the internet.

This practice is ILLEGAL. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean you're not allowed to know it happens (although PGC has the right to make their own rules about that kind of thing while we're here), it just means you can go to jail if you try doing it yourself.


Translation Patches:
One of the cooler things about ROMs, and a major temptation to break the law and use them, is the fact that people can make "patches" for ROMs. Devoted fans of a foreign game, frustrated by seeing it get passed up for localization, can look inside the contents of a ROM image and (after a lot of effort) find where all the foreign text is hidden. They can then go about translating it themselves, and creating a patch for the ROM image. If you put the patch onto a ROM image, it will replace certain sections of the image with their translated replacement text. Just using an "Import Walkthough" to play a 100% legit version of the game is way more legal, but there's no denying that it pales in comparison to the smoothness of a well-made translation patch.

The patches themselves are supposed to be legal (although there is no legal use for them), even though you just know that somebody has to have broken the law at least a few time for one of them to have been made.


Emulators:
An emulator is (like Rick said) a computer that's pretending to be another computer. Most are legal. Some aren't. Like I know that most emulators for the MSX (the Japanese personal computer where games like Metal Gear first appeared) require a copy of the MSX's BIOS (Binary Operating System) in order to run properly. That's illegal. But when people take the time to write their own operating systems for their emulators, and spend years working out all the bugs and flaws, then that's fine.

There are emulators for the PC out there that emulate the NES and SNES, and while it seems that they have no possible legal use (since you can't really stuff an NES cart into your PC), there are some "homemade" games being developed for them. Those are legal (unless they start copying massive sections of other people's game programs to build their games). And there aren't really any laws that say the things you make have to be useful (as far as I know). So the emulators themselves are legal, but they just keep getting used for illegal purposes.

And then there are emulators out there that emulate systems like the Sega CD and the TurboGrafx CD and the Playstation. These are really cool, and actually useful, because you can put the game's CD into your CD drive and play the real games on your computer. That doesn't stop people from being able to make "Disc Images" and trading them over the internet, or playing bootleg games in the emulators, but illegal bootlegging was already a problem with these systems, so it's not really the fault of the emulators.


Official Emulators:
There are games like Final Fantasy 4 to 6 and Chrono Trigger on the PSX that actually use SNES emulators on the Playstation. The version of Metroid included as a connectivity bonus in Metroid Prime runs on the GameCube in an NES emulator. Because even though the GameCube was made by Nintendo, and is way more powerful than an NES, it just isn't an NES. I don't think that most of us know all that much about this kind of emulation. It's designed to be the kind of "magic trick" that you don't even see. When it does it's job right, you shouldn't even know it's there.
Poor people should eat wheat!
I'm about to go punk up some 3rd parties so they don't release games on other hardware, ciao!
- Ken Kutaragi

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2003, 08:30:00 PM »
ruby, you are entitled to have a single backup to do with as you please of whatever games you like.  That's the law.  However, it is ILLEGAL to download the backups, even if you own the game, as it is a backup of a different cart from the one you own.

Your post was very informative though, and quite detailed.  Kudos to a job well done.
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2003, 07:40:32 AM »
Emulators are useful. E.g. a C64 emu I have came with a C64 serial to x86 parallel connector, which allowed plugging C64 drives, printers and other hardware into a PC. Theoretically it is possible to take apart a console and connect the drive's wires to your PC in some way and back stuff up. Emus can also do things the original console can't (like special effects for high resolutions, state-saves, etc.).

Offline Infernal Monkey

  • burly British nanny wrapped in a blender
  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2003, 01:59:43 PM »
Mmm, it seems Ruby has covered every aspect of Emulation in one handy post, well done

I just need to throw in a useless fact, there was a Game Boy emulator for the PlayStation, released by Datel electronics back in 1998.
It was never stopped by Nintendo or Sony. It was an exact rip of the Super Game Boy. Complete with some of the original borders (and some of their own crappy ones)

Offline Oldskool

  • Maker of Fine Straitjackets since 1997
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2003, 06:17:30 AM »
Uhhh... Are we allowed to talk about emulators?
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Smells like victory!"

Proudly using my Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo D laptop.

Offline manunited4eva22

  • Got 1337?
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2003, 06:30:50 AM »
I don't know, why don't you read what rick said a few posts up.

Offline Gamefreak

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2003, 06:51:06 AM »
By the way, read the back page of any SNES (or N64 too I think) game instruction manual, and you'll see that it's illegal to even make a backup copy, an "archive" copy, or any copy AT ALL of any game.  

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2003, 02:19:55 PM »
There are laws that permit you to do so though, even if Nintendo doesn't like it.  One of the problems though, is that you must make a backup on the same medium as the original.  Which means that backing up your cart onto your hard drive... could theoretically be described as illegal, although it's unlikely you would EVER get charged for doing so, if you didn't distribute it.
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline Stu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2003, 11:49:44 AM »
Depending on what games you own, you already have several emulators in your collection.  Metroid Prime uses a NES emulator to plat Metroid (as has been mentioned), Sonic Mega Collection uses a Genesis \ Mega Drive emulator to emulate all those classic 16bit Sonic games, and if you have the Wind Waker bonus disc, your Gamecube will be using a SNES emulator when you play it.

To be honest, with the rumors about Sonic CD not being on Sonic Mega Collection due to the people at Sega not being able to get an acceptable level of emulation (graphic glitches and sound mess ups apparently), I find the quality of emulators coded by people in their spare time to be amazing.  

There's a great retro scene on the Cube at the moment, with the games listed above, as well as Ristar and Flicky on Sonic Mega Collection, and the upcoming Sonic Adventure DX.  Say legal, and play them with a proper control pad on a big screen TV.

Offline Gamefreak

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: emulator
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2003, 12:34:15 PM »
Nope Grey Ninja - whoever told you that is yanking your chain. You CANNOT make a backup of any game in any for whatsoever. Read the copyright notices too...

So, copying your Age of Empires CD onto another CD is...illegal. You can't do it. If you want to prove your way, why don't you go show a backup copy of some game to a cop and see what happens Well, he probably won't care, but he is supposed to arrest you

Offline PIAC

  • is actually agentseven
  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2003, 08:00:27 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Stu
and if you have the Wind Waker bonus disc, your Gamecube will be using a SNES emulator when you play it.


wrong on 2 accounts, 1 your talking about n64 and 2 it wasn't emulated it was ported, said so in the booklet that came with it, you can even tell from the button menu' thing (where you assign your items) they are gamecube ones not n64 ones

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2003, 08:02:41 PM »
No, it is NOT illegal.  Why I just went to all this work to prove such a stupid point is beyond me, but I did it anyways.

Quote

Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. -

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1)

that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2)

that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline Stu

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2003, 09:51:06 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: PIAC
Quote

Originally posted by: Stu
and if you have the Wind Waker bonus disc, your Gamecube will be using a SNES emulator when you play it.


wrong on 2 accounts, 1 your talking about n64 and 2 it wasn't emulated it was ported, said so in the booklet that came with it, you can even tell from the button menu' thing (where you assign your items) they are gamecube ones not n64 ones
Yeah, N64 sorry, not SNES, wasn't thinking.  

Are you sure there's no emulation invovled at all? The IGN.com review says 'Yes, visuals and sound are outdated when you compare this emulated N64 game with other titles in the GameCube lineup, but the gameplay remains fresh and top notch to this date.'  


 

Offline Grey Ninja

  • Retired Forum Drunk
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
emulator
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2003, 12:28:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Stu
Quote

Originally posted by: PIAC
Quote

Originally posted by: Stu
and if you have the Wind Waker bonus disc, your Gamecube will be using a SNES emulator when you play it.


wrong on 2 accounts, 1 your talking about n64 and 2 it wasn't emulated it was ported, said so in the booklet that came with it, you can even tell from the button menu' thing (where you assign your items) they are gamecube ones not n64 ones
Yeah, N64 sorry, not SNES, wasn't thinking.  

Are you sure there's no emulation invovled at all? The IGN.com review says 'Yes, visuals and sound are outdated when you compare this emulated N64 game with other titles in the GameCube lineup, but the gameplay remains fresh and top notch to this date.'


No, you are correct.  It is emulated, not ported.  Proof can be found on the N64 ROM of the game floating around the internet.  It was ripped from the GCN disc, and still has the GCN specific icons on it.  It runs on an N64 emulator.
Once I had, a little game
I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean