Topic: Star Wars Fanhouse, Chewie, we're home!

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Y'all need to stop hating on Jar Jar, simply because you can't understand the depths of his character. I hope that JJ brings back Jar Jar as an awesome cloaked out space ninja that isn't revealed to be him until half way into episode 8. Get every body to love him then drop the bomb and watch the haters run for shelter.


I'm only half joking and would truly love this to happen.

[NWR_insanolord]

Put Boba Fett in there, have him doing awesome stuff for a while, and then he takes off his helmet and it's Jar Jar.

[oohhboy]

Hey man, passive aggressively calling someone an idiot doesn't mean you didn't call them an idiot and not be mean about it. But I am not the type to report people.

The idea that any large organization doesn't have a group of enforcers or security experts to enforce basic things like taxation or to police civil unrest or piracy is absurd. Your telling me in thousands of worlds over countless number of sentient beings, over a thousand years there weren't ever any Hitler wannabes or warlords in their own fiefdoms that had more power than the Jedi could handle? **** me, even a Badminton club has members temporaliy take on a tax man role to enforce the fees needed to run the club.

The peaceful planet of Naboo has a trained police force while lacking heavy ground weapons, had some pretty good starfighters and pilots trained to use them. These police forces knew how to do things like take cover, lay ambushes, VIP protection, assaults and other small unit tactics. The Queen has blasters in the throne ready to use and wasn't shy about it. These were people who knew what conflict is and how to fight. Repeat this over the entire Republic and you have a fighting force to call on. It would be pretty damn ram shackled, but it would have made sense for the Republic like the UN make a Call to Arms to fight when needed.

That Clone War could have been awesome. Ships and fighters from hundreds of worlds fighting a desperate struggle against seemingly endless Stromtroopers with superior fire power using terror tactics like glassing planets. The Republic fighters would fight an organized open battle only on their terms. Each Species would bring different weapons, ideas and skills to the fight. The Republic would be defeated of course in time and become a puppet government, but not before striking a devastating blow that stops the clones in a phyric victory that forces them underground to form the Rebellion.

Or I could have just said that you telling me that the idea of people having literally forgotten how to fight despite being able to build and develop fleets of war machines is beyond absurd.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

Hey man, passive aggressively calling someone an idiot doesn't mean you didn't call them an idiot and not be mean about it. But I am not the type to report people.

The idea that any large organization doesn't have a group of enforcers or security experts to enforce basic things like taxation or to police civil unrest or piracy is absurd. Your telling me in thousands of worlds over countless number of sentient beings, over a thousand years there weren't ever any Hitler wannabes or warlords in their own fiefdoms that had more power than the Jedi could handle? **** me, even a Badminton club has members temporaliy take on a tax man role to enforce the fees needed to run the club.

The peaceful planet of Naboo has a trained police force while lacking heavy ground weapons, had some pretty good starfighters and pilots trained to use them. These police forces knew how to do things like take cover, lay ambushes, VIP protection, assaults and other small unit tactics. The Queen has blasters in the throne ready to use and wasn't shy about it. These were people who knew what conflict is and how to fight. Repeat this over the entire Republic and you have a fighting force to call on. It would be pretty damn ram shackled, but it would have made sense for the Republic like the UN make a Call to Arms to fight when needed.

That Clone War could have been awesome. Ships and fighters from hundreds of worlds fighting a desperate struggle against seemingly endless Stromtroopers with superior fire power using terror tactics like glassing planets. The Republic fighters would fight an organized open battle only on their terms. Each Species would bring different weapons, ideas and skills to the fight. The Republic would be defeated of course in time and become a puppet government, but not before striking a devastating blow that stops the clones in a phyric victory that forces them underground to form the Rebellion.

Or I could have just said that you telling me that the idea of people having literally forgotten how to fight despite being able to build and develop fleets of war machines is beyond absurd.

Um yes they had a police force they were called the Jedi, who used their magical powers to you know scare people. It took a Sith to get the people to stand up to the Jedi that was the whole point, the people were subdued by the power of the Jedi and they were afraid of them and couldn't rise up because they had mind control powers. Calling you an idiot was rude, I said that in my post but you are right. The point is you didn't watch the movies that closely if you missed the entire point of the struggle. Look at the way the Trade Federation leadership cowers at the Sith Lord they struck a deal with, in their entire history NOBODY has ever stood up to the Jedi, they were terrified of the Jedi when they were sent to "force a settlement" they even called Sidious up and told him they failed they dared not go against the Jedi, how could anyone in the entire galaxy stand up to that power. These trade federation people had a droid army built for this sort of thing, it was well established the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, we can see they have amazing super powers and are in total control of the government not to mention exist in huge numbers and get their powers at such a young age that it would make no sense for anyone to ever step out of line.

Tatooine was a fringe planet on the far outskirts of the galaxy and was not a member of the republic it was controlled by Hutts, who were a savage race with powerful military but the Hutts also dared not to go against the power of the Jedi, they were immune to their mind control but not their other super powers so they took control of what territory they could and ruled, like the Jedi, with fear.

All of this is explained in the movies a child could get them, hence why I felt the need to use the term idiot because it refers to someone who misses something so obvious a child could get it. You are not an idiot obviously so that was wrong of me, but you are missing the entire point of the friggin movies which shows me you either never did watch them and get your entire opinion from that dumb ass review, or you somehow didn't even pay any attention at all whatsoever to the story, which makes your points sound ignorant at the very least.

Look at the scene were Obi-Wan and Anakin chase a criminal into a crowded bar and they proclaim Jedi Business and walk around all tall and arrogant and nobody interferes with them, that shows that even the people who would normally break the law were terrified of them.

Now lets address the police force, suppose they had one which I assume they did, the Jedi were not cops they were more like Knights, hence the term but anyways. A police force was shown to exist on Naboo, they even stated they were inexperienced for fighting a war, suppose the Chicago police were invaded by terrorists from whoever, do you think THEY wold be prepared to fight a proper war? No they would not they have all the experience in the world with violent crime but no knowledge of strategy. OUR society is war friggin crazy and so it is in our culture every American alive has at least rudimentary knowledge of the basics of war, because on our planet in our society war is normal.

In this fantasy galaxy where human beings can manipulate the force and do amazing feats of magic and super human agility, they live in a society that is portrayed to be so advanced they do not experience war on a large scale. They said there were regional conflicts so in those areas yes their soldiers would have some experience but not every system in the galaxy.


NOW take Gungans, the people in the movie, they were underwater people living on peaceful planet with no history of war and were not plugged into current affairs, even if say the Naboo had sent their army to fight they might have had some knowledge of war tactics which is why they were chosen to lead the assault on the city, they had the experience the queen needed to get to the Vice Roy, do you think Boss Nass would have been able to do that? No of course not. While the Gungans proclaim they had a grand army, with nobody to actually wage war with it was more a ceremonial thing than anything, they didn't ever leave their underwater bubbles and had no relations with the Naboo so they didn't have anyone to use their army against so their tactics would be primitive. Now take the Trade Federation army, a bunch of robots that were built to be security officers fresh off the assembly line being unpacked for their first battle sent out to fight against the primitive Gungans. Alright an Army of droids that can not be killed marching into an army of frogs who have never fought a war who have the equivalent of rocks, is it really a stretch of the imagination to see the battle going as it did? No it was not, it made perfect sense and arguing otherwise is fabricating an excuse to hate the movie which is my primary beef with that review and the people who offer similar criticism, people who just hate the movie because its popular to do so and nitpick over tiny details that are CLEARLY explained in the movie.

[oohhboy]

I am not going to respond to that because you're ranting with runaway sentences that don't actually address the points covered in a coherent fashion. Calm down. Have a think, and try again when you're in a more stable state of mind.

I have clearly hit a nerve and as much as I prodded The name the must remain unspoken, you are not deserving of such punishment at this juncture.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

The last paragraph covered the whole point, the Gungans were a primitive race that was the issue you had the battle in Episode 1 against battle droids, the sequel, Attack of the Clones was ten years later, after the unrest took over. You can read it and get my argument without being dismissive like that I read  yours, you failed to address the issue of the one battle you complained about, I did. You made it sound like the entire Republic fought in pre-WW1 formations and tactics, false it was one battle, a distraction battle that was staged by the way, lead by a bunch of underwater folk who had not fought a war in untold generations, Naboo was a peaceful planet they explained that. I mentioned the Jedi as a police task force I also mentioned how in a real war the Chicago Police of the united state, a society built on war, would not be capable of fighting a proper war if it was up to just them, they address this in the movie security personal are not the same as trained solders, hell anyone who lives in our society should know that, it doesn't need to be explained and they still explained it just for those who couldn't pick up on it on their own.


Let's just focus on your complaint, the single battle which is what we were talking about. Even if you take into account the entire Republic yes it would make no sense for them to NOT have some military training somewhere Even though they explcititly mention this in the movies, Attack of the clones they are debating the formation of an army because there has not been war since the formation of the Republic, that was the gist of the entire story. Suppose there were outlaws, fair enough and like you said tax enforcement, it is well established that is what the Jedi were there for, again I spelled that out but because you are hung up on grammar you can't even try to read my post whatever.

Like I said, you make it sound like that battle was unrealistic because they were an advanced civilization that had all this weaponry, except they weren't, they had weapons but no organized military, the Jedi council even stated they could not fight a war they were not prepared for it. The clone army was set up by Palpatine who was manipulating the entire Senate using the force. The Jedi also shown in the movies they used the force and their powers to intimidate people into submission. Even a well trained police force could not fight a proper war.

Now look at JUST the battle of Naboo, the security forces were the ones who went to the city to fight the well trained battle, where soldiers did take cover and fight like proper soldiers if you WATCHED the movie. It was just the Gunans who marched into battle throwing rocks, again that was George Lucas hang up on showing promitives toppling advanced societies he did it in Jedi with the Ewoks by the way so if you going to take issue with the Battle of Naboo might wanna also talk **** on Battle for Endor while we are at it.


The battle of Naboo was an issolated incident, they established that in the opening paragraph the  planet is under embargo no trade in or out, they are under siege even if there was a UN type task force, there was in a way the Jedi, who were dispatched to force a settlement, but even in that context they were blocking communication and Palpatine was their voice in the Senate and he was manipulating the events so obviously he didn't want the issue to spread which is why they called for a task force to investigate the accusations, politics got in the way, but I guess you slept through that scene and missed that entire plot point anyways.

The battle of Naboo was a ruse, they even stated that it was a decoy and the Gungans were only there to keep the Battle Droids away from the city, they, the Gungans having no experience in war had no clue what they were doing, they said they had an army but they made no indication they were battle hardened, their neighbors were the Naboo who had no relations with them apparently so the Gungans had nobody to fight.

Now you can read my original post and this one which spells it out and then decide if the battle makes no sense or if it actually does in context your choice but if your threatening me with what I think you are then we are done here anyways.



My issue is when someone make a statement that one battle ruined the whole movie and then bitches about it like it was unrealistic in a space fantasy that bends the rules of reality anyways, seems nitpicky to me. Why not just say what you really think, George Lucas ***** your childhood and that is your hatred for the movie. You can criticize the acting fine, go ahead but saying the movie is bad because a staged battle between a primitive inexperience underwater society against brand new battle droids fresh off the assembly line somehow ruins the entire movie you didn't pay that much attention. Which is fine if you don't like the movie I don't care I have no stake in you liking the movie but don't make blanket statements like the entire premise was stupid because you misunderstood the purpose or context of the battle.


I agree the movies have faults and when you bring up a proper fault I will back it up, mediclorians I take issue with, the acting was bad, the script had major holes, the CGI was pretty bad for the most part, I am all for that, bring it on. But saying the entire movie was bad because a staged battle at the end didn't conform to the tactics of a war hardened society is looking for something to bitch about. Even Britain was still using the same tactics in WWI and hey lets not forget Star Wars takes place in the past, in a distant alien galaxy how do we know their battle tactics would mirror our own?



Oh and I am perfectly calm, as the whole time, so there.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

Hey man, passive aggressively calling someone an idiot doesn't mean you didn't call them an idiot and not be mean about it. But I am not the type to report people.

The idea that any large organization doesn't have a group of enforcers or security experts to enforce basic things like taxation or to police civil unrest or piracy is absurd. Your telling me in thousands of worlds over countless number of sentient beings, over a thousand years there weren't ever any Hitler wannabes or warlords in their own fiefdoms that had more power than the Jedi could handle? **** me, even a Badminton club has members temporaliy take on a tax man role to enforce the fees needed to run the club.

The Jedi filled that role watch the movies again.

The peaceful planet of Naboo has a trained police force while lacking heavy ground weapons, had some pretty good starfighters and pilots trained to use them. These police forces knew how to do things like take cover, lay ambushes, VIP protection, assaults and other small unit tactics. The Queen has blasters in the throne ready to use and wasn't shy about it. These were people who knew what conflict is and how to fight. Repeat this over the entire Republic and you have a fighting force to call on. It would be pretty damn ram shackled, but it would have made sense for the Republic like the UN make a Call to Arms to fight when needed.

They addressed that in the movie, there was a blockade on the planet and the Jedi were sent there to force a settlement and the Jedi were ambushed.

That Clone War could have been awesome. Ships and fighters from hundreds of worlds fighting a desperate struggle against seemingly endless Stromtroopers with superior fire power using terror tactics like glassing planets. The Republic fighters would fight an organized open battle only on their terms. Each Species would bring different weapons, ideas and skills to the fight. The Republic would be defeated of course in time and become a puppet government, but not before striking a devastating blow that stops the clones in a phyric victory that forces them underground to form the Rebellion.

Again the later clone wars battles were nothing like the battle of Naboo which was a STAGED fight to draw the droid army away from the city it was a show of force and then they retreated that was the strategy it was not the strategy the war effort would take TEN YEARS later when the actual war began.


Or I could have just said that you telling me that the idea of people having literally forgotten how to fight despite being able to build and develop fleets of war machines is beyond absurd.

Again it was a staged battle. The Jedi were guardians of peace in the galaxy they were the law enforcement and they had super powers nobody was going to go against them it took a SITH offering protection from the Jedi to get the Trade Federation to rise up. The entire plot of Episode 2 was the formation of the Army to fight the Separatists The debate was over the use of force because they had no experience and there hadn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic. These events take place ten years after Menace which shows they had time to deal with the matter and learn it also shows once they took charge of the Clone Army they went  in guns blazing and took down the Battle Droids Geonosis. That battle was clearly fought by someone with knowledge and experience as it was programmed into the clones as stated in the movie (pr the novelization I forget at the moment)

[oohhboy]

Your style of writing clearly showed you weren't calm compared to your normal style.

I wasn't talking about the battle of Naboo. I was using the planet Naboo being an example of a peaceful planet that has a collection of people capable of engaging in serious combat with the will to fight despite the lack of heavy equipment and weapons. Less peaceful or different worlds would have even better fighters like lets say the Mandolorians. That's just one planet full of people who could fight and what do you know! One was selected to be the basis of a clone army! What about Wookies? Where are the Bothians? Even Jawas have useful skills to bring to a war effort.

The ground Battle of Naboo was farce that killed many when anyone with two brain cells could have come up with better plan for either side.

The battle on Geonosis was a pointless meat grinder and you know it. At that point they had already achieved one of their primary objectives of rescuing the heroes. Everything after that to destroy the droid factory was a needless slaughter of meat when you have effective air superiority and capital ships with big guns to bring to bear to force a surrender. Yoda might not know how to fight a war, but I am sure the trained clones knew with their programming and specialist units. Why isn't Yoda distressed by the thousands of people including Jedi getting killed and maimed.

Every battle was a directionless clusterfuck of pointless slaughter. The battle over Corusant had ships duking it out at point blank range in a mess like a bunch of triremes. In ROTJ there was a very good reason for this. But why do that here?

The Jedi aren't all powerful and their actions in the movies present them as bunch of aloof, incompetent, blind and apathetic bunch that aren't deserving of a good reputation let alone implementers of policy. What about pirates? You need a navy for that. People like that aren't going to "Negotiate" a settlement. Jedi shows up they are either going to run away or shoot back. Jedi aren't really into the whole art of being starfighter pilots. Lets say that single Jedi somehow arrests them, what are you going to do with them now? Take them to Jedi court? Judgement on the spot Dreed style? Local prison?

Then multiply those pirates into gangs, the **** are Jedi going to do now? Crime lords turn warlords spreading out from the fringe worlds taking a planet here and there with the will and ability to go into at least a limited war. Jedi don't fight wars right, so what are they going to do? Assassinate the leader? ok, now you have a political vacuum with factions going at each other with billions of people involved. Are the Jedi going to keep killing people until they give up?

Even the great Empire with level of terror it was capable of couldn't fully suppress dissent and unrest without Star Destroyers and boots on the ground. You're telling me that a Jedi is as powerful and as threatening as cruiser full of troops or any Army.

Simply put the world that the prequels exists in was utter nonsense and comprised of terrible fan fiction. In every respect the prequels falls short of the OT.

Compare that with the battles in the OT. Every battle has a clear purpose, an ebb and flow as both sides jockey for position. Tactics change as the situation changes or as goals are met. The world made sense and was lived in. There was a great evil and adventure to be had. The saber battles were dangerous, serious affairs that were personal matters.

You like the prequels and if the lore is important to you fine. But don't argue how they are better movies. They are not. They are the Star Trek of Nemesis, Insurrection, Final Frontier. Terrible movies best forgotten. Lets not forget they ruined the hell out of Vadar.

As for the American police, given how heavily armed they are to the point of being paramilitary forces, they would put up a pretty good fight and they most certainly wouldn't fight like the idiots do in the prequels. You have all sorts of ex-soldiers, explosives and weapons experts in their ranks. The fat ones will either hide, surrender or die though so there's that and not everyone would be willing to fight.

Don't bring up the novels, or information in them. They are irrelevant.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

Your style of writing clearly showed you weren't calm compared to your normal style.

I wasn't talking about the battle of Naboo. I was using the planet Naboo being an example of a peaceful planet that has a collection of people capable of engaging in serious combat with the will to fight despite the lack of heavy equipment and weapons. Less peaceful or different worlds would have even better fighters like lets say the Mandolorians. That's just one planet full of people who could fight and what do you know! One was selected to be the basis of a clone army! What about Wookies? Where are the Bothians? Even Jawas have useful skills to bring to a war effort.

The ground Battle of Naboo was farce that killed many when anyone with two brain cells could have come up with better plan for either side.

The battle on Geonosis was a pointless meat grinder and you know it. At that point they had already achieved one of their primary objectives of rescuing the heroes. Everything after that to destroy the droid factory was a needless slaughter of meat when you have effective air superiority and capital ships with big guns to bring to bear to force a surrender. Yoda might not know how to fight a war, but I am sure the trained clones knew with their programming and specialist units. Why isn't Yoda distressed by the thousands of people including Jedi getting killed and maimed.

Every battle was a directionless clusterfuck of pointless slaughter. The battle over Corusant had ships duking it out at point blank range in a mess like a bunch of triremes. In ROTJ there was a very good reason for this. But why do that here?

The Jedi aren't all powerful and their actions in the movies present them as bunch of aloof, incompetent, blind and apathetic bunch that aren't deserving of a good reputation let alone implementers of policy. What about pirates? You need a navy for that. People like that aren't going to "Negotiate" a settlement. Jedi shows up they are either going to run away or shoot back. Jedi aren't really into the whole art of being starfighter pilots. Lets say that single Jedi somehow arrests them, what are you going to do with them now? Take them to Jedi court? Judgement on the spot Dreed style? Local prison?

Then multiply those pirates into gangs, the **** are Jedi going to do now? Crime lords turn warlords spreading out from the fringe worlds taking a planet here and there with the will and ability to go into at least a limited war. Jedi don't fight wars right, so what are they going to do? Assassinate the leader? ok, now you have a political vacuum with factions going at each other with billions of people involved. Are the Jedi going to keep killing people until they give up?

Even the great Empire with level of terror it was capable of couldn't fully suppress dissent and unrest without Star Destroyers and boots on the ground. You're telling me that a Jedi is as powerful and as threatening as cruiser full of troops or any Army.

Simply put the world that the prequels exists in was utter nonsense and comprised of terrible fan fiction. In every respect the prequels falls short of the OT.

Compare that with the battles in the OT. Every battle has a clear purpose, an ebb and flow as both sides jockey for position. Tactics change as the situation changes or as goals are met. The world made sense and was lived in. There was a great evil and adventure to be had. The saber battles were dangerous, serious affairs that were personal matters.

You like the prequels and if the lore is important to you fine. But don't argue how they are better movies. They are not. They are the Star Trek of Nemesis, Insurrection, Final Frontier. Terrible movies best forgotten. Lets not forget they ruined the hell out of Vadar.

As for the American police, given how heavily armed they are to the point of being paramilitary forces, they would put up a pretty good fight and they most certainly wouldn't fight like the idiots do in the prequels. You have all sorts of ex-soldiers, explosives and weapons experts in their ranks. The fat ones will either hide, surrender or die though so there's that and not everyone would be willing to fight.

Don't bring up the novels, or information in them. They are irrelevant.

Fair enough I was excited, as I get with Star Wars, not angry if I was angry you wouldn't been able to make any sense of what I said. All of your points I will concede on the grounds I misunderstood your original argument. Except the bold part, I NEVER said they were better films. I actually prefer the originals, except Phantom Menace is one of my favorites.

But would you nitpick the space battles of any other science fiction, say Avengers for example or Captain America? No people scrutinize Star Wars to a level no other fiction ever gets scrutinized. I like the prequels they are GOOD action movies they are GOOD science fiction, I never said they were GOOD films in general. Film is subjective anyways and the prequels have flaws, NO different than the flaws in the OT. Obi-Wan in the first movie said how the Old Republic was damn near utopian society he talked about life "before the dark times, before the Empire. Jedi were Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy. YES I think an ENTIRE army of super heroes can subvert a race of normal people without super powers. the Empire did not have an army of Jedi they had TWO Sitch and they Emperor lied to the people and told them the Jedi were evil and using their powers to control them so fear of the Jedi kept people willing to hunt down their blood line. That is well established in the films. I never mentioned the books except like one point that was also mentioned in the films but elaborated on in the book and I even said I wasn't sure where it was so you don't have to be so dismissive about it.

I am actually quite happy discussing this stuff, even arguing it I am more a Star Wars fan than video game fan so it is something I get passionate about, so don't mistake passion for anger and I will try not to insult you next time, which was uncalled for and I even reported myself to the mods so no reason to get out of hand, as I do try to be reasonable for the most part.

I disagree with your entire view on the prequels Obiwan may have romanticized the old Republic in some degree but he painted a picture that the Jedi kept order in the galaxy and that is what we saw. If the Jedi had just been monks in a temple and you saw Storm Troopers running around keeping the peace fans would have bitched about Obi-Wan being an even bigger liar than he is already accused of.

The prequels have flaws but I think your fabricating flaws to strengthen your views which is fine but you can't state them as pure fact when they are not. I also completely HATE attack of the clones, it is the most painful of the trilogy to watch so don't get the wrong idea that I am completely blind, thanks.

[oohhboy]

None of the movies are Science Fiction, they are all Science Fantasy Adventure films. The prequel having failed being good movies fails them at being good in their genre. Science Fiction has a speculative element to it that asks "What if" especially in regards to technology and it's impact on humanity, something that doesn't apply to Star Wars. Action is far more subjective. If your bar for a good action movie is "Explosions" then I can't argue with that.

Obi-Wan might have described it as a utopia, but what kind of utopia contains people selling Death Sticks, Assassins, crime lords, smugglers, slavery via explosives etc. Clearly Obi-Wan lied, like he does on a lot of other things. He lies to protect Luke and to motivate him, mould him in a way he should have done with Anakin. While lying is a "Bad thing", it was the correct course of action. Had Obi-Wan told the truth, Luke would be either dead, turned or imprisoned. Obi-Wan lies is part of what gave him depth in the OT, this was a man who on the outside is a shining pillar of truth and Justice but was pragmatic, he understood the greys of morality. Just because he is a lair, it doesn't make him a bad person. Another things is that Obi-Wan could simply be unreliable as far as story telling is concerned.

You give Jedi far too much credit and far over estimate their effective power on the individual level and as a group. If they really were as powerful as an army, why didn't they fight those set piece battles by themselves? Why did they have to run away from the trade ship? Why so much trouble against Jago Fett? Simple, they are better, faster and a little bit more sturdier than the average human, but they are not what you would call a super hero. Even Superman can only do so may things at once. Don't tell me that every single Jedi is more powerful than Superman because they are as close to that as you and I are.

If the Jedi had just been monks in a temple and you saw Storm Troopers running around keeping the peace fans would have bitched about Obi-Wan being an even bigger liar than he is already accused of.

You misread and are mixing two different posts addressing two different ideas. One was an improved story arc that was written as an example of something better than what GL had come up with that took me no more than 5 minutes of thinking. The trade federation is made of clones and the Republic is everyone else banding together to fight.

The other is part of the argument that government needs institutions to function. the Jedi aren't subservient to the government and the government aren't influenced by them. The Jedi are not much more than a group of vigilantes.

You tried to describe parts of the Prequels as "C-span in space". If this had any truth to it, why didn't they talk about the institutions that make up the Republic like the Tax Office or Department of trade and tariffs or law review court, anti-corruption agency, the Central Bank, Ministry of Justice, DMV? These are the tools of government and when something is decided upon it is up to these institutions to implement them. The "Government" represented in the prequels had none of this. It didn't have even something as basic as a diplomatic protection service as you see everyone were forced to bring their own security or hope they have a Jedi with them. The Republic shown had no power, the leader is no more than a mediator, has no proper processes to do anything and even the word of a Jedi has no power. It wasn't a government, at best it was a forum where fundamentally benign fussed over.

What of the rules of the government? One was a vote of no confidence for a leader change, which is simple enough. Another was a call for an investigation. But who was going to go investigate? Didn't we already investigate and have a report already? Does a Jedi word mean nothing? Who makes executive decisions? Write laws? Runs commissions? Where is the human drama? Go watch the West Wing or the House of Card as examples of good political drama to see why the prequels failed so absolutely in this regard.

The Empire in had these at least in an implied sense in the form of the stromtroopers, the dissolved senate, the space navy, planetary governors with direct control via stromtroopers.

It all boils down to a simple fact. The prequels are terrible movies as they are ill thought out, badly shot, boring, tensionless, horrific writing, poorly acted, even more poorly directed that made real peoples lives worse off. The prequels being terrible movies is a far easier explanation for all the wild inconsistencies than to try to cover them up after the fact.

If you like them, fine, we can move on and stop this nonsense, but they aren't good movies by any measure other than "Has Explosions".

*Don't mention the books because none of that information is "Canon".
**You're constantly having trouble keeping different bits of information bleeding into each other resulting in unreadable messes.
***Order 66 is what killed the Jedi and Vadar went after the stragglers.
**** The Emperor had taken control of the Republic via silent Military coup assisted by apathy and kept the Senate as a form of control.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

None of the movies are Science Fiction, they are all Science Fantasy Adventure films. The prequel having failed being good movies fails them at being good in their genre. Science Fiction has a speculative element to it that asks "What if" especially in regards to technology and it's impact on humanity, something that doesn't apply to Star Wars. Action is far more subjective. If your bar for a good action movie is "Explosions" then I can't argue with that.

Says YOU, the entire world calls them science ficiton, Fox even does so, as does Lucas himself You can muddle the definition all you want they are still science fiction at their core even if they don't fit your really odd and ultra strict definition.

Obi-Wan might have described it as a utopia, but what kind of utopia contains people selling Death Sticks, Assassins, crime lords, smugglers, slavery via explosives etc. Clearly Obi-Wan lied, like he does on a lot of other things. He lies to protect Luke and to motivate him, mould him in a way he should have done with Anakin. While lying is a "Bad thing", it was the correct course of action. Had Obi-Wan told the truth, Luke would be either dead, turned or imprisoned. Obi-Wan lies is part of what gave him depth in the OT, this was a man who on the outside is a shining pillar of truth and Justice but was pragmatic, he understood the greys of morality. Just because he is a lair, it doesn't make him a bad person. Another things is that Obi-Wan could simply be unreliable as far as story telling is concerned.

I disgree, there was crime nobody said that but if you see the way Obi Wan handle the deathsticks that is what i am talking about, people will break the law but when they see a Jedi they lose control. I think your not giving the Jedi ENOUGH credit. I even state there were police it is said so in the movies elsewhere or hinted at anyways.

You give Jedi far too much credit and far over estimate their effective power on the individual level and as a group. If they really were as powerful as an army, why didn't they fight those set piece battles by themselves? Why did they have to run away from the trade ship? Why so much trouble against Jago Fett? Simple, they are better, faster and a little bit more sturdier than the average human, but they are not what you would call a super hero. Even Superman can only do so may things at once. Don't tell me that every single Jedi is more powerful than Superman because they are as close to that as you and I are.

Nobody is talking about them being able to stop ALL crime, but they did a good job keeping the PEACE which you said they couldn't succeed at now your changing the argument and accusing me of doing that get your facts straight and get off you high horse. I have studied political science I understand the institution argument and I also understand that this is a FANTASY world completely different from OURS, you are unable to separate HUMAN elements from a non HUMAN society. You are taking EARTH politics and imposing them onto a universe who did not have the same history we did and therefor is not subject to the laws of HUMAN NATURE. If you can not accept that fine but it limits your ability to enjoy the films, which clearly is the case. As such since you can not do that obviously you will hate them.

If the Jedi had just been monks in a temple and you saw Storm Troopers running around keeping the peace fans would have bitched about Obi-Wan being an even bigger liar than he is already accused of.

You misread and are mixing two different posts addressing two different ideas. One was an improved story arc that was written as an example of something better than what GL had come up with that took me no more than 5 minutes of thinking. The trade federation is made of clones and the Republic is everyone else banding together to fight.

FALSE, nowhere is it said the Trade Federation is made of clones, the clone army belonged to the Republic the clones were the "good guys" the Trade Federation controlled the Droid army, did you even watch the damn movies or are you getting all your information off the web or someplace else?

The other is part of the argument that government needs institutions to function. the Jedi aren't subservient to the government and the government aren't influenced by them. The Jedi are not much more than a group of vigilantes.

WRONG, the films again clearly show the Sith using his mind powers to control the Senate and to hide his actions from the Jedi, if a SINGLE SITH is so powerful he can pull it off how can you NOT expect an entire army of who knows how many Jedi to do the same? A single Superman could not but an ARMY of Superman could very well pull it off.

You tried to describe parts of the Prequels as "C-span in space". If this had any truth to it, why didn't they talk about the institutions that make up the Republic like the Tax Office or Department of trade and tariffs or law review court, anti-corruption agency, the Central Bank, Ministry of Justice, DMV? These are the tools of government and when something is decided upon it is up to these institutions to implement them. The "Government" represented in the prequels had none of this. It didn't have even something as basic as a diplomatic protection service as you see everyone were forced to bring their own security or hope they have a Jedi with them. The Republic shown had no power, the leader is no more than a mediator, has no proper processes to do anything and even the word of a Jedi has no power. It wasn't a government, at best it was a forum where fundamentally benign fussed over.

WRONG again, I never said that someone else did as a complaint so your confusing me with someone else now stick to the topic stop straying off or else you look bad. Now these views I can agree with so again you CONFUSED my argument I was addressing ONLY the battle of Naboo read my post again damn it. You talked about the Battle of Geonisis being a meat grinder or whatever term you used, I disagree watch the fucking movie again, it is shown they space battle is taking place out of view of the audience they are shooting down the federation ships. The ground troops were only trying to STOP the war Obi wan said it right there if we catch Dooku we end this war right now, their strategy WAS flawed they thought if they threw their entire army at one man they could stop him, that Supports my claim they had no prior military training DUH we addressed that. YOU make it sound like they should have the strategic commend of a battle hardened general when they did not have that they had the command of a bunch of religious fanatics who had no clue what they were doing. EVEN if you take the Clone programming into equation they were progerammed to flow orders not give orders so even if the clone KNEW Yoda was being a fool it was AGAINST their programming to defy his orders so again the inexperienced Jedi were fighting a war they had no business being in hence why there was a DEBATE against creating the army in the first place. The Army was created WITHOUT the approval of the senate and their knowledge so HOW could the Senate have a say in their programming? Palpatine was manipulating the entire thing he was controlling BOTH armies clearly it was in HIS interest to start the war therefore he was and DID manipulate things because he was in control also even the Jedi had to follow HIS orders they gave him that power in the VOTE in the middle of the movie if you actually watched it you would know this but I think you only watched it maybe once when it was new, felt you hated it read a review on why someone else hated it and agreed with him without actually questioning that review. Prove my wrong by actually getting your facts from the movie straight. Again I AM NOT saying these are GREAT movies I am just disagreeing with your assessment of the battles.


What of the rules of the government? One was a vote of no confidence for a leader change, which is simple enough. Another was a call for an investigation. But who was going to go investigate? Didn't we already investigate and have a report already? Does a Jedi word mean nothing? Who makes executive decisions? Write laws? Runs commissions? Where is the human drama? Go watch the West Wing or the House of Card as examples of good political drama to see why the prequels failed so absolutely in this regard.

NO, I studied political science HUMAN EARTH politics do not apply to this space fantasy world. If you can not separate the two of course you will have issues with them but a reasonable person who can think logically ought to be able to deduce that A Long TIME AGO IN A GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY is not the same as the fucking West Wing. I am not here to write an essay on the politics of the films I don't care enough about them or you to do that, I enjoy them for what they are I don't HATE THEM for what they are not. Clearly we differ there. That is the core if it which will not change.


The Empire in had these at least in an implied sense in the form of the stromtroopers, the dissolved senate, the space navy, planetary governors with direct control via stromtroopers.

It all boils down to a simple fact. The prequels are terrible movies as they are ill thought out, badly shot, boring, tensionless, horrific writing, poorly acted, even more poorly directed that made real peoples lives worse off. The prequels being terrible movies is a far easier explanation for all the wild inconsistencies than to try to cover them up after the fact.

If you like them, fine, we can move on and stop this nonsense, but they aren't good movies by any measure other than "Has Explosions".

Says you, you define them as terrible because YOU can not separate the world of fiction so that means YOU can not appreciate  them it does not mean they are not good movies by any measure, they are GOOD movies by the sense they do what ALL Star Wars movies before and after do, they create an epic world of fantasy that viewers can escape into, assuming those viewers do not over think what is going on. I asked if you scrutinize Avengers or other science fiction films of this nature and your response was saying these aren't science fiction TO YOU. So I guess you just have it in your head you are right period and refuse to accept you could be wrong? Good one. I said they are not great films I never said they were but they are not as bad as YOU claim nor are they terrible films either.

*Don't mention the books because none of that information is "Canon".

I didn't mention the books **** can you even read? I mentioned the NOVELIZATION which is canon it has always been assumed so, and if you read my post I called that into QUESTION ALREADY so stop right there sir and READ my actual posts.

**You're constantly having trouble keeping different bits of information bleeding into each other resulting in unreadable messes.

Wrong, you are stuck on a lopsided view and refuse to accept any view contrary to yours. I said my peace and I can't convince you other wise.

***Order 66 is what killed the Jedi and Vadar went after the stragglers.

SO? When did I disagree with this? What is the point in even making a statement that has nothing to do with anything I said? Who are you arguing with now? Are you just arguing in general?

**** The Emperor had taken control of the Republic via silent Military coup assisted by apathy and kept the Senate as a form of control.

He Disolved the senate when it no longer was of use to him, if he NEEDED them why would he disolve them. OR let me spin it this way, if he NEEDed the Senate and LUCAS said he disolved it doesn't that make A New Hope a terrible movie because it punches holes in logic? Make up your mind, OR watch the god damn movies!

You are arguing with two different people, I never said C-SPan in space that was someone else complaining about the prequels that wasn't me. Even still I lost interest because I realized we were arguing over something different and I don't care anymore. You can hate them all you want I don't end of story.

[shingi_70]

soo... anyone picking up New Dawn next month?

[Stratos]

What did you do to the Star Wars thread?!? I sure as hell am not reading all of that text and I LOVE Star Wars history and minutia.

soo... anyone picking up New Dawn next month?

I will wait for it to appear at the library (better go reserve it now, probably already got a long wait list).

[nickmitch]

This thread went from zero to tl;dr in a hurry.

[oohhboy]

This thread went from zero to tl;dr in a hurry.

Yep.

So, err, any body watched the de-specialized Editions aka the Original cut?

[Oblivion]

So, err, any body watched the de-specialized Editions aka the Original cut?

Woah, those exist? Where can you buy them?

[oohhboy]

Err, you don't "Buy" these. They are reconstructions made by a very hardcore fan and are made to an extremely high quality from multiple sources. All the original quirks are in them. No shock rings, partially transparent snow speeders, original light saber effects, Han shoots first and last.

I can PM where to get them if you can't find them by yourself as I am sure the Mods would frown upon me.

[BranDonk Kong]

Put Boba Fett in there, have him doing awesome stuff for a while, and then he takes off his helmet and it's Jar Jar.

Would have applauded, but the terrorists won and the system is gone. This thread is terrible due to the amount of words.

[Oblivion]

Err, you don't "Buy" these. They are reconstructions made by a very hardcore fan and are made to an extremely high quality from multiple sources. All the original quirks are in them. No shock rings, partially transparent snow speeders, original light saber effects, Han shoots first and last.

I can PM where to get them if you can't find them by yourself as I am sure the Mods would frown upon me.

Ah. No need to send me a link, I'm sure I can find them on my own. Thanks.

[Stratos]

I still have an old VHS trilogy handed down from my father to me. The ones with the grey cases.


Can't find many good shots of it but this is one I found of New Hope. I'll have to get a clean shot of my set when I get home so I can have bragging rights

[BranDonk Kong]

I will forever refuse to call it "A New Hope." Really it bugs be to call them "Episode IV V and VI" too. I have the original trilogy on VHS (full screen, lame) and DVD (widescreen, yay)...never watched them. I think the DVD trilogy is still sealed actually, the VHS version is just the remaster (without all the CGI crap), but the DVD version is the CGI re-released in theaters version.

[NWR_insanolord]

I saw the original trilogy for the first time when they released the Special Editions in theaters, so the changes don't really bother me, and in a lot of cases it seems really silly to be upset at them. I've been meaning to buy the Blurays of them; I almost never get movies on Bluray, but these seem like they'd be worth it.

[BranDonk Kong]

It's just that the CGI is so terrible. They should have just gone and fixed the problems that you can still see, like bad reference lighting used in several green screen scenes, squares around some of the ships in space, but instead they added like giant animals, a horribly done musical number, and Greedo shooting first.

[nickmitch]

Err, you don't "Buy" these. They are reconstructions made by a very hardcore fan and are made to an extremely high quality from multiple sources. All the original quirks are in them. No shock rings, partially transparent snow speeders, original light saber effects, Han shoots first and last.

I can PM where to get them if you can't find them by yourself as I am sure the Mods would frown upon me.

I wouldn't mind seeing such a link in my inbox, but I wouldn't ask for one for fear of mod retribution.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

if, and this is  a HUGE IF, all he did was clean them up and tweaked the little things like he set out to do, nobody would have complained. The fact that he actually inserted scenes, deleted stuff people had gotten used to, and even changed the entire musical number, those all upset people. IF he had just stopped there people would have said fine and dealt with it, but he didn't. the DVD Special Editions are NOT the same as the LaserDisc and Theatrical Special editions and he went and made FURTHER tweaks for the Blu Ray. Most of the changes are subtle and only hard core fans will notice, but the obvious ones like changing the Emperors dialog and face, inserting bad CGI Jabba then replacing him with WORSE CGI Jabba then going back to old bad CGI Jabba is jarring. It does take you out of the movies when you pop in a new version of the movie and all of a sudden the actors are not repeating their FAMOUS lines they are saying new lines.

It has always been this way even pre-special edition all home video releases of Star Wars are different in some minor ways, even theatrical releases are different.


A New Hope was added to the title BEFORE it was released to VHS/Beta/LD it was in the theatrical cuts just not the first run theatrical cut but the second printing re-issue so it stands as the official title. I can see now accepting the episode numbers but those were ALWAYS present in Empire and Jedi they were added to the original on re-release but still BEFORE home video.


In Empire on VHS and Beta Max the conversation between Vader and that technician about Hoth is different from the one on the LaserDisc/DVD/SE releases. The reason is the movies were mixed using a 6 channel sound at a time when MOST theaters still were using Mono or Stereo so there are mono mixes and stereo mixes out there each using different takes of dialog for unknown reasons. C3PO has entire lines removed from one version to the other. That has been a part of Star Wars since day one, which is why fans are so up in arms over every change because it's never ending there is no "standard" Star Wars even the theatrical cuts were different depending on which theater you saw it in and if you saw it very first limited release, the second wide release or the first re-release or the second re-release as he was still tinkering with them even when they were being released in theaters. So saying one cut is superior is a fallacy because it is damn near impossible to tell which cut takes precedence usually with the viewer holding true to whichever version *they* saw first as the true version.

This is why people were GLAD to see someone else take these films off his hands.