Author Topic: Potential Dumb Move By MS  (Read 5336 times)

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Offline Darc Requiem

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Potential Dumb Move By MS
« on: June 15, 2004, 07:16:56 PM »
Well I keep hearing it over and over again and after reading the same rumor at several reliable sites. It seems MS is gonna pull a Sega and launch X-box 2/Xenon in November of 2005. I understand them wanting to get the top on Sony and Nintendo but they are just dooming themselves. Given that Nintendo and MS have the same technological partners MS is assuring that the Revolution will be technically superior, IBM and ATI will have an extra year to tweak the Revolution hardware. Sony is also gonna have the upper hand from a hardware standpoint.

Not only that. The X-box 2/Xenon won't have a hard drive and may not have backward compatiblity. I'm not a big MS fan but at least here in the US they have a bit of momentum. They are actually going toe to toe with the PS2 in sales. By not having Backward compatibility...they will lose the momentum they have. People that currently on the X-Box won't feel obligated to purchase X-box 2 to play there older games. I thought backward compatiblity was unnecessary before but the blind purchasing of the PS2 at launch despite the lack of quality titles proves me wrong.

I'm abit baffled by MS' tactic here am I the only one that thinks they are screwing themselves? I mean X-box sales are on the rise. An X-box 2 launch well ahead of Sony and Nintendo can only curtail X-box sales and leave the X-box 2 in doubt. I don't know. I just find this interesting.

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2004, 08:37:32 PM »
They're trying to pull a PS2, selling mostly on brand recognition and promises about hardware superiority. Maybe they already have planned a launch lineup made mostly by Rare...

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 09:02:38 PM »
A large part of the Xbox's appeal is that it's the most powerful system on the market.  The fact that it has the best graphics is big reason why it's got so much hype going for it and why some of the prettier Xbox games get a lot of pre-release hype regardless of how good the game turns out to be (ie: most MS first party releases).  Plus it's part of the image.  It's the console equivalent of the fully loaded sports car with the really loud and powerful engine.  Saying "I bought the most powerful console on the market" is part of the appeal.  Sure that's superfiscial and shouldn't matter but the Xbox's whole success has been because they've marketed superfiscial aspects as system-selling features.

I think MS is being very naive by launching early.  Right now MS is the console equivalent of a one-hit wonder.  As a first party they're relying a lot on one really popular game and as a hardware manufacturer they've only released one console.  They don't yet have that brand name that allows them to cut a console life short by a year.  They don't yet have a loyal enough fanbase to expect their fans to buy a new console that is quite different from the Xbox and lacks the hardware advantage and the hard drive.

I've always regarded the Xbox as a poor man's PS2 that has been able to ride this wave of hype and marketing that has covered up the console's generally weak one-good-exclusive-a-year lineup.  I think the ultimate problem is that MS has gotten the Xbox where it is now by throwing money at everything and seeing what sticks.  And now that they have to actually make a profit they don't have that easy solution anymore.  The Xenon has to be successful on it's own merits without an endless advertising budget, without third parties being paid off to supply exclusive games, and without the advantage of being able to outright buy developers like Bungie, Oddworld, or Rare to guarentee exclusivity.  I don't think it can do that.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 07:14:08 AM »
This is a shot to the foot for them, imo...Maybe they'll begin to understand that what they do in the OS "industry" can't be done in the videogame industry(putting out a slightly better product every few years, or even inferior ones...Windows ME, anyone? )
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 07:23:13 AM »
Ian: hey stated that with the Xenon they are thinking in long-time terms. Whether that means another loss or just turning the Xenon into an evil artificial intelligence bent on the destruction of mankind, I'm not sure. But the latter seems possible considering Sony's trying to build Skynet with their Cell processor...

Offline couchmonkey

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 07:45:27 AM »
There are a lot of things I want to comment on here!

Quote

Originally posted by: Darc Requiem
Not only that. The X-box 2/Xenon won't have a hard drive and may not have backward compatiblity. I'm not a big MS fan but at least here in the US they have a bit of momentum. They are actually going toe to toe with the PS2 in sales. By not having Backward compatibility...they will lose the momentum they have. People that currently on the X-Box won't feel obligated to purchase X-box 2 to play there older games. I thought backward compatiblity was unnecessary before but the blind purchasing of the PS2 at launch despite the lack of quality titles proves me wrong.


I'm still not convinced that backwards compatibility is a big factor in buying new systems, but maybe I'm wrong.  I knew people who were really into the PS2 when it was new, and they were more excited about the graphics and power and all-around coolness of the system than the games.   I do think the lack of a harddrive will tick a few people off. Taking away features that users have become acustomed to is not a great idea.

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A large part of the Xbox's appeal is that it's the most powerful system on the market.  The fact that it has the best graphics is big reason why it's got so much hype going for it and why some of the prettier Xbox games get a lot of pre-release hype regardless of how good the game turns out to be (ie: most MS first party releases).  Plus it's part of the image.  It's the console equivalent of the fully loaded sports car with the really loud and powerful engine.


Absolutely. I think this is the biggest mistake of launching early.  Even if Microsoft really pours on the power, chances are this system won't be any better than PS3 or Revolution in terms of graphics, and if Nintendo or Sony decides that having the most powerful system is important, there's nothing MS can do about it.  Of course, I think system power is becoming less important, but being able to claim that you are the most powerful still means something to people...especially the people that bought Xbox.

Quote

Right now MS is the console equivalent of a one-hit wonder.  As a first party they're relying a lot on one really popular game and as a hardware manufacturer they've only released one console.  They don't yet have that brand name that allows them to cut a console life short by a year.


I also definitely agree with this.  Sony can do pretty much whatever it wants, its huge fan base will wait for the next PS3, because they think they're going to get Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Grand Theft Auto, and other games they love first, and possibly exclusively, on that system.

Of course, launching the Genesis early worked for Sega, why not Microsoft?  I think it depends on a few things:

How cocky is Sony? One reason the Genesis worked was because Nintendo thought it was invincible, and didn't come up with a coherent strategy to fight the Genesis until Sega had already taken a good chunk of the market away.  

I think Sony has some problems with cockiness...they lost a lot of exclusive third party support this generation, and the company is in no hurry to release a new system even though the PS2 is getting somewhat old.  On the other hand, I'm quite sure Sony knows that Nintendo and Microsoft are real threats and I expect Sony to take every measure possible to slow down sales of "Xenon" if it's early to market.  Sony deflated the Dreamcast with PS2 announcements and the same trick could really hurt Xenon since power was one of Xbox's big selling points.

Can Sony be out-cooled? Sega also saw and exploited weak points in Nintendo's image: a LOT of Sega's advertising in those days focused on Nintendo being uncool, which worked especially well since a lot of Nintendo's old fans were growing into teenagers at the time.  Who doesn't want to grow up and be cool at that age?  Even Sony hopped on the "insult Nintendo" bandwagon when the PSX came out.

I don't think that will work against Sony.  I have heard that Sony is having some image problems lately.  Maybe people bought too many Sony products that broke!  I know I did.  Still, while Sony may not be as super-cool as it once was, I can't imagine it actually being considered uncool the way Nintendo is by many people.  I admit that Microsoft has done a good job of making Xbox cool...maybe even cooler than the PS2.  But it was extra power and luxuries like the harddrive that made Xbox cool in the first place.  If PS3 and Revolution come with nifty new gameplay gadgets and have more power than the Xenon, where does that leave Microsoft?  Squaresville!

Last, but not least, where is Halo?  With Halo 2 coming out this year, there's not much chance of a Halo game for Xenon's launch and I'm not convinced that anything else will really sell Xenon.  Perfect Dark could make an impact, but it's not a safe bet like Halo would be.  Knights of the Old Republic and Dead or Alive are popular with a lot of Xbox players, but I'm not sure if either of them were system sellers.  I think launch games are going to be more important than ever, because I don't think the new technology is going to blow people away like it did in previous generations.

I think it will be pretty exciting, though.  It's fun to watch someone take a gamble, and there is still a possibility that Microsoft will pull it off.  With the right launch games and enough hype, the Xenon could potentially grab a nice lead.  I dislike Microsoft, but I wouldn't mind seeing them take the wind out of Sony's sails.

Edit: tried to shorten this way-too-long post.  
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Offline Chode2234

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 08:24:33 AM »
Where does this leave Nintendo?  How can they respond to this most effectively?
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 10:12:51 AM »
"Where does this leave Nintendo? How can they respond to this most effectively?"

I don't know.  The easiest advantage to have in this situation is the hardware advantage.  But Nintendo has been downplaying the importance of hardware specs.  So either they're not going to have a hardware advantage or they are but they're not going to hype it up because it clashes with their focus and it would be hypocritical.

I think it's all about the marketing.  Nintendo should make a big deal about how they gave the Cube a normal five year life and MS cut their console's life short and may cut the Xenon's life short as well.  It's dirty but it would work and it's a legitimate issue.  It's rumoured that the Revolution will have a hard drive while the Xenon will not.  Again that's something to promote, it's an extra feature the Xenon won't have.

One thing Nintendo has to do however is make sure they have a great launch with a major killer app.  Sony has never had a decent launch for there consoles so that automatically is an advantage there.  MS on the other hand will, like Sony had this gen, have had a year or so to build up a strong lineup and Nintendo's launch lineup has to be able to compete with the Xenon's Christmas 2006 lineup.

Price matching will also be important.  The Xenon could very well have a price drop by the time Nintendo launches and Nintendo has to match the price (or beat it but that may be hard to do) to eliminate the advantage.  I think it be wise for Nintendo to throw in a pack-in game at launch as well as an added incentive.  It wouldn't have to be anything fancy.  A retro comp like the Zelda Collector's Disc would be sufficient and it would cost very little to throw in for free.

It may not be possible but that absolute best period for Nintendo to launch would be around March 2006.  New consoles often have a drought of new titles after the first Christmas season.  At that point the Revolution could launch without any high profile Xenon game releases taking away hype.  Game news is also slow at that time so the Revolution launch would complete dominate the game magazines and web sites.

Offline kennyb27

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 11:27:23 AM »
I don't know if you all read IGN's article on this, but two points from it I found interesting.  
Quote

The "Xbox 2" will use PowerPC based architecture similar to the chipset powering Apple's G5 computers. That being the case, Microsoft's early "Xbox 2" development kits have been little more than modified Apple G5 systems pre-packed with "Xbox 2" emulation software.
I found that kind of ironic, to say the least, and maybe even a bit hypocritical.
Quote

The tentatively codenamed "Xbox 2," set to receive a name revision before its release because Microsoft doesn't want consumers to assume it's inferior to PlayStation 3 based on end numerals.
And I just find that down-right funny.
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Offline Renny

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 12:00:36 PM »
Maybe they'll release an Xbox-S and call their new console Xbox 3, then?
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 12:31:35 PM »
Missing the christmas season for a draught?  No, bad idea.  Aim for summer over the leftover season.

Offline Djunknown

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2004, 05:20:00 PM »
despite it being still being rumor and heresay, I wouldn't be surprised MS strikes first. Don't forget they have their other trump card that is Xbox Live, which continues to evolve and find its niche.

As far as backwards compatability factor, I believe its up in the air. Hardcore gamers will flock to this as they can trade in their console and a few games they played out; and if/when a drought happens, just pop in those bonifide hits of last year! But what about casual gamers?

P.S aside from Rare's dismal Grabbed from the Ghoulies, I wouldn't just assume they suck royally. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Perfect Dark becomes the new Halo at Xbox2's launch, while bungie puts out Halo 3 at a later date.

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Offline Darc Requiem

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2004, 06:04:35 PM »
Hey Couchmonkey, I'm not saying that backwards compatibility assures a huge market. What I'm saying is that its a huge bump to console sales at launch and during the first year. Thats why got the PS2 through its pathetic first year and a half. It sold on hype, backwards compatibilty, and it DVD player features. If the PS2 lacked backward compatibility. I think the Dreamcast would have lasted at least a year longer.

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Offline odifiend

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2004, 03:31:34 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Djunknown


P.S aside from Rare's dismal Grabbed from the Ghoulies, I wouldn't just assume they suck royally. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Perfect Dark becomes the new Halo at Xbox2's launch, while bungie puts out Halo 3 at a later date.


Well I'm basing their suckitude also on Star Fox Adventures.  If Fox hadn't suddenly been switched in for the main character, it would have flopped- big time.  Anyway I would be suprised if Rare was able to meet a deadline.  Even when they were at their best, their games were like 6 months late.
Also as I understand it, Perfect Dark is cel-shaded now.  Not that doesn't make it a good game, but Rare will not get as many purchases from graphics whores i.e. Casual gamers.  That was a bad artstyle move IMO and I think sales will back me up.
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Offline Chode2234

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2004, 04:32:56 AM »
Will they cancel xbox live for xbox when they launch the new one?  What about the kiddies who won't want to upgrade?  To much FUD regarding the new MS system...
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Offline AMac2002

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2004, 10:06:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: DjunknownI wouldn't be surprised if the new Perfect Dark becomes the new Halo at Xbox2's launch, while bungie puts out Halo 3 at a later date.


Most things I've heard from inteviews and the like, is that Halo 2 is probably going to be the last of the franchise. Bungie will just make another game instead, and it'll be like "from the makers oh Halo, and Halo 2." But you're prolly right about PD.


Offline couchmonkey

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2004, 10:36:54 AM »
On Rare's games:
I don't think Rare sucks, in fact I've would really like an Xbox just to play Rare's games.  But I just don't think Perfect Dark will be as popular as Halo was.  As I understand it, Halo had a lot of hype right from the start because it was originally headed for the PC and Bungie was a very well-respected developer in the PC arena at the time.  Perfect Dark has been nowhere to be seen for several years, and Rare's reputation has slipped.  I still think it would be a great launch title, and with Microsoft marketing it like crazy, it may sell a lot of systems.  I just don't think it has instant "killer app" status like a Halo sequel would.

On what Nintendo should do:
I think the safest route is to just try and imitate Sony's release date, but beat it by a few weeks if possible.  That is assuming Sony releases PS3 at a reasonable time.  I think releasing too far ahead of or behind Sony leaves Nintendo at risk of looking inferior or late.  Harping on MS cutting the Xbox's life short seems like a smart strategy, Ian.
I don't think it would be a bad thing for Nintendo to point out that Revolution is the most powerful system (if it is the most powerful) but I wouldn't make it the main selling point.  I think it would still be a nice thing to add to the list of the system's features, but whatever makes the system a "revolution" should be the main selling point, along with the games.
As for pricing, the GameCube has always been the cheapest console by a pretty decent margin, and it didn't seem to do it much good, so why lose money?  I would make it a little cheaper than the PS3 for that extra edge, but I don't think it's worth losing lots of money to match Microsoft's price - assuming the XBenox2 is much cheaper.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2004, 11:10:28 PM »
The problem is that Microsoft is honestly pushing Rare as their kiddie brand. They once released a press release how "kid friendly" the XBox was, naming about twelve games, most of which suck or were multiplatform. They also said they have to go after the kiddie market. Apparently they believe that they have Bungie for the mature killer apps and Rare to cover the kiddies.

Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2004, 06:02:26 AM »
I was reading about this somewhere else, where it said that MS, since it wasn't doing that great this generation is going to try and force the next generation to start earlier than it should so that they could, by default, take the lead over their competition.  MS, imo, is contradicting themselves here, didn't they say they were in this for the long haul, and that they were going to let the Xbox grow as a product?  Hypocrites is what they are, and stupid too.
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2004, 07:15:25 AM »
I don't think MS is pushing Rare as the kiddie brand anymore.  I agree that was Microsoft's original plan but since Grabbed by the Ghoulies flopped, suddenly RARE IS TEH MATURE!  Seriously, Kameo's character model has been completeley redesigned with tattoos and torn wings, and Conker is starting to look exactly like Halo or Brute Force (at least the new parts of it, the remake portion of the game looks awesome).

I find it disappointing.  In a recent scribes (mailbag) on Rareware.com, one of the guys from Rare said that Xbox has the most limited demographic of the three systems, and he's absolutely right.  First-person shooters and racing games are about all you can sell on that system, so instead of expanding the system's lineup, Rare is slowly being herded in and forced to make its games the same as everyone else's.

(Edit) P.S. There is nothing wrong with mature games, I admit they're not my cup of tea, but what really bothers me about the situation is that it feels like Rare's creativity is being stifled.  Of course, it could be Rare's own decision; the company wants to make money, after all!
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Offline odifiend

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2004, 02:52:20 PM »
Wasn't it Rare though who decided to shift kid friendly conker 64 into conker's bad fur day?  I don't think Rare is being forced to make mature games.  Almost everything they've released outside of Nintendo franchises and Banjo (& co) have been FPSes.  I think the Rare of the past would have been at home on the Xbox.  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2004, 03:06:17 PM »
Say what?  Rare only released 2 FPSers...The rest of the games were either racing, platformer, or adventure...
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Offline odifiend

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RE: Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2004, 04:28:20 PM »
or fighting or beat'em up.  My bad, though, I always thought Jet Force Gemini was an FPS as well (obviously never picked it up).  I had forgotten some of Rare's best franchises.  Still I never thought Rare could be labeled as kiddie.  I remember Rare for Killer Instinct as much as I do for DK in the SNES era.  Perfect Dark and Conker as much as DK64 and DKR.
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Offline NintendoSoldier

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2004, 05:11:44 PM »
Xbox sucks I hate M$ and the xbox 2 will be a failure just like the xbox .

Offline Draygaia

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RE:Potential Dumb Move By MS
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2004, 06:01:21 PM »
Well you know its not like they care about the problems that might happen like in the past because they don't see the problems especially with a big wallet that can go far.

I try to be equal in likes in the competition but I only like xbox because it has the most successful online out of the three.
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