Author Topic: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?  (Read 7884 times)

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Offline Nile Boogie

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Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« on: August 24, 2005, 10:06:47 AM »
You remember don't you. You remember way back when any wrestling game that came out for N64 it was be good. It's a shame that the best wrestling game this Gen was Def Jam Vendetta.  Do you think that with all this supped up technology that will finally go back to the glory days of , World Tour,  Revenge and Wresltmaina 2000. Boy I hop so.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2005, 10:20:41 AM »
Wrestling games suffer from the same problem as wrestling itself: lack of competition.  Since there's only one major league there's only one company making licenced wrestling games.  Neither THQ or WWE have any incentive to make a better game because they're the only game in town so everyone (stupidly I might add) buys them.  On the N64 the WWF games were made by Acclaim but they sucked compared to THQ's WCW titles.  So when THQ's contract with WCW ran out the WWF snapped them up.  The WWF had to worry about their games losing sales to WCW's so they did what they could to provide a better game.

It's like James Bond games.  They suck compared to Goldeneye and they NEVER will be better.  Why?  Because EA knows that same gaggle of idiots will buy any game with "007" slapped on the cover.

The only way wrestling games will improve is if either TNA gets a game deal and becomes a bigger threat to WWE or some manages to create a critically and financially successful wrestling game with a licence.  Sadly publishers don't think that will sell and that's why we get Aki wasting their time on junk on Def Jam Vendetta where the licence greatly limits the gameplay.

The N64 era of wrestling games was actually pretty rare as traditionally wrestling games SUCK, particularly licenced ones.  Aside from Pro Wrestling, WWF Wrestlefest, Tecmo World Wrestling, and Saturday Night Slam Masters can you name a pre-N64 wrestling game that didn't suck balls?

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2005, 10:47:45 AM »
Well there are a couple other wrestling games on the other platforms Backyard wrestling (which is a lousy game) and Rumble Roses (which looked too lame for me to even try)

Wasn't there an Ultimate Muscle Wrestling game for the cube?

Offline IceCold

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2005, 11:05:27 AM »
And I don't understand why they keep messing with the grapple system. An almost perfect one is out there, yet they are still attempting to improve it without reason. Ridiculous
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Offline Nile Boogie

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2005, 11:38:26 AM »
I really liked FIREPRO Wrestling(import) for the ps1 or DreamCast.

It's a shame because DEF JAM was so close to giving me what I really wanted. If only...
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 11:45:48 AM »
Hey guys, please tell me what made the Aki wrestling games so great?  It's not that I doubt you, I'm just not a big enough wrestling game fan to "get it".

I picked up Day of Reckoning (I think, I can't remember all the sub titles) because I love the character creation mode and it's a fairly fun multiplayer game, but I admit it's weak in a few areas.  I especially hate when you get towards the end of a match and every punch has you flat on the ground smashing A for about 30 seconds to get up again.  I'd like to see someone look for an alternative to button-mashing for recoveries and possibly grapples in that game, otherwise I'm fairly satisfied.

Anyone played Rumble Roses?  The move set seemed pretty repetitive and of course there's the whole soft-porn aspect to it that some people wouldn't like, but I liked the recovery times.  Winning seemed a little too random though.  One friend of mine would always get slapped around for 90% of a match and then suddenly pin his opponent out of nowhere.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 12:06:04 PM »
"Hey guys, please tell me what made the Aki wrestling games so great?"

It was really easy to use yet it had a fair resemblance to the real thing.  You had to wear your opponent down to get off bigger moves and it usually made sense when you won or lost.  Stuff like beating the f*ck out of your opponent and then having them casually pin you out of nowhere didn't happen.  Plus it was based on momentum instead of health so if you were making a comeback you got stronger.  That made thing a lot more like the real thing.  it was also easy to do different moves since you just pushed a different button or direction after a grapple.  Wrestling games tend to be buttom mashers so you want to change the moves up a bit.  And there were a lot of moves too, far more than wrestling games usually had at the time.

The timing of it was really significant.  When WCW vs. nWo: World Tour showed up it was literally the most accurate wrestling game ever.  Personally I think it's kind of slow and dated now but it remains popular because no one has made anything better, at least not for a 3D game.

Fire Pro beats it in my opinion except that Fire Pro doesn't have a grapple button.  I find that makes the games too unnatural and it's hard to get in the right mindset to play them.  Plus you have to BREATHE which is really annoying.  That sort of detail should be automatic based on your characters stamina and how athletic his moveset is.  A combination of the two would be best.  Aki's is easier to use but Fire Pro is faster and is more accurate to real pro wrestling.  I wrote up my dream design in some game design thread that I think was in general chat about a year ago or so.

I think the most important thing is that you should be able to watch two people play and have a match almost as entertaining as a real one.  Wrestling is a show above all else so being able to entertain should be the goal.  Too many games treat wrestling as a real sport where the goal is just to win.  As a result you get games were people do the same move to you 100 times and then pin you which is totally unlike the real thing and goes against "wrestling physics".

Personally I think wrestling games should have a performance mode where you and your opponent co-operate and set up spots and such to put on a great match.  Like you're an actual wrestler and the booker told you to wrestle some guy for 15 minutes with this move getting the pin and with this high spot occuring three quarters the way through and you controlling for this amount of time.

Offline Famicom

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2005, 08:23:49 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Personally I think wrestling games should have a performance mode where you and your opponent co-operate and set up spots and such to put on a great match.  Like you're an actual wrestler and the booker told you to wrestle some guy for 15 minutes with this move getting the pin and with this high spot occuring three quarters the way through and you controlling for this amount of time.


The WWE Developmental and Heat phase of the Day of Reckoning storyline had scenarios very similar to what you're describing.

Personally I don't think this gen turned out all that bad, at least from a GC perspective (I haven't played any of the wrestling games on PS2 or Xbox) and compared to all of the repsective gens in the past. the N64 age so far has been more of an exception than a budding rule. However as a fan of wrestling in general I'm not too down on it. Yes WMX8 was trash beyond trash and a huge step down from No Mercy, but Yukes fixed the wrestling aspect in XIX, fixed the story aspect in DoR (depending on how you feel about being limited to only CAWs for the story), and from what I've seen are planning on improving the graphical aspect for DoR2 while tweaking said fixes from previous games. I don't think the end result will have anywhere near the flexibility that No Mercy offered (WHY hasn't a wrestling game since allowed a tweakable Royal Rumble is insanity to me), but it will be a very good game in the competitive sense.

The biggest problems still left to tackle are the aforementioned flexibility, the AI, and a problem that has plagued wrestlers since day one, collision detection. Better hardware (and of course adept handling of said hardware) should hopefully help iron out collision detection issues and make for a more realistic game. AI is something that will need lots of hands-on attention though. Not so much the difficulty of the CPU, but other details like utilizing a wider variety of moves in a moveset, quicker moving refs who don't get hung up in the ropes, CPU opponents that don't follow each other in and out of the ring constantly, CPU opponents who are AWARE of match stipulations (no letting up on submissions in a submission match, using as many bleeder moves as possible in a first blood match, etc) and such affairs. Flexibility....well for a WWE game, that could be a problem. Not saying Yukes isn't capable, but I really think they're being limited by WWE programming itself. They won't include a submission only 40 man Royal Rumble because WWE doesn't do that. So I would hope they would AT LEAST include matches and other things that DO happen, like best of 3 falls, the Elimination Chamber and PPV/belt creation and defenses in those various match types. Whew, Yukes (or anyone) has a lot of work cut out for them. And that's just stuff I feel is necessary.

In my eternal lists of wants, I'd like for a restructuring of the tag team mode. I've never played a fun tag team match, with or without friends. Add a new stipulation or a mandantory tag timer, let the idle partner have something to do while waiting that will affect the match, SOMETHING to make it fun. I'd like editable or replacable superstars. I don't want or need Rosey on my game, so let me create my own. Most other stuff I'd like falls back into that flexibility gripe, and is probably a mere pipe dream.

Pushing ALLLLLLL that aside, here is a link to an interview that may get you all tingly inside.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 08:40:07 PM »
I'm not 100% clear on exactly how the licensing works out, but if somebody else wanted to try their hand at a WWE-licensed game, couldn't they approach JAKKS Pacific for a license as well?


Offline Famicom

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 08:44:42 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
I'm not 100% clear on exactly how the licensing works out, but if somebody else wanted to try their hand at a WWE-licensed game, couldn't they approach JAKKS Pacific for a license as well?


I think WWE granted a ~15 year contract to THQ to publish their games back in 1999. Whether or not WWE is capable of extending the rights to another company would depend on the contract. Since EA hasn't bought into it yet I assume it's not possible. I do know that THQ could hire another developer to work on a WWE game, but that isn't exactly solving the problem here.
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Offline IceCold

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2005, 08:52:48 PM »
Quote

To actually develop the commercial version of the game will obviously be substantially more...into the millions. We've been fortunate to receive generous investment from private investors, as well as Telefilm Canada, to get us this far. Everyone is happy with the market research results and prototype, so if all goes well in the next few weeks, we'll be funded again to complete the project.
Oh, wow...
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 08:55:09 PM »
The quality of WWE games seem to coincide with the quality of WWE programming. So if Brock Lesner comes back, look for WWE games to get REALLY lousy...and big and stupid with a big stupid red face and no neck with terrible mic skills and no brain.

Offline Famicom

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2005, 09:04:47 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Rancid Planet
The quality of WWE games seem to coincide with the quality of WWE programming. So if Brock Lesner comes back, look for WWE games to get REALLY lousy...and big and stupid with a big stupid red face and no neck with terrible mic skills and no brain.


I'll take Brock over Gene Snitsky, Rob Conway (THE CON WAY), Simon Dean, Kerwin White, Heidenreich, The Heartthrobs, and random slut Divas #1-232 any day.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2005, 09:14:12 PM »
"In my eternal lists of wants, I'd like for a restructuring of the tag team mode. I've never played a fun tag team match, with or without friends. Add a new stipulation or a mandantory tag timer, let the idle partner have something to do while waiting that will affect the match, SOMETHING to make it fun."

I think the problem is that tag team wrestling in real life tends to follow a formula that is not present in videogames.  Most tag team matches have a face and heel team and the general storyline is that the heels beat the sh!t out of one of the faces (usually by cheating and doing all sorts of mean stuff behind the ref's back) until the face FINALLY breaks free and makes the hot tag to the other face who then beats the hell out of the heels and the match is a big melee until someone gets pinned.  Videogames use this formula: fight one-on-one until someone gets the advantage or a pin attempt and the partners come in and fight to try to break up the pin.  This to my knowledge has NEVER occured in a real match.  I think a good ref AI would be the solution.  You should be allowed to do anything provided the ref doesn't see it.  So if you try to come in without a tag and the ref sees you he forces you out.  Meanwhile the other team can now double-team your partner while the ref isn't looking.  This dynamic would allow you to use the face-in-peril forumula.  The match becomes more about cutting off your opponent from tags and distracting the ref, just like in real pro wrestling.

Another thing that bugs me is that in Iron Man or 2/3 Fall matches in games it's very common for one guy to have a really dominant victory like getting 10 more falls or winning in 2 straight falls.  This NEVER happens in real life.  Normally I'm against rubberbanding but in this case I think the game should give a bit of an advantage to keep things even.  At least an option would be nice.  Have an option called "balance match" and if checked on it tries to balance the match and if it's off the match is just standard videogame "win the match" mode.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2005, 12:09:21 AM »
I have to think about this topic some more, but generally I am disappointed with every wrestling game this gen.  They play as badly as an EA game; in fact some of the better ones are EA games
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2005, 12:15:01 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Famicom
Quote

Originally posted by: Rancid Planet
The quality of WWE games seem to coincide with the quality of WWE programming. So if Brock Lesner comes back, look for WWE games to get REALLY lousy...and big and stupid with a big stupid red face and no neck with terrible mic skills and no brain.


I'll take Brock over Gene Snitsky, Rob Conway (THE CON WAY), Simon Dean, Kerwin White, Heidenreich, The Heartthrobs, and random slut Divas #1-232 any day.


I'll give you Snitsky, Bagwell (er Conway), Simon Dean, Heidenreich, the Heartthrobs and random slut Divas...but over Chavo? You sir, have no soul!

Chavo OWNZ. Granted he should be on SD with the cruiserwieghts but still.


Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2005, 07:53:22 AM »
"I'll take Brock over Gene Snitsky, Rob Conway (THE CON WAY), Simon Dean, Kerwin White, Heidenreich, The Heartthrobs, and random slut Divas #1-232 any day."

I'll agree that most of those guys suck but Simon Dean and Kerwin White are actually pretty talented wrestlers stuck with TERRIBLE gimmicks.  If they just allowed them to be Chavo and Nova (and allowed them to cut loose instead of working the boring WWE style designed to not expose HHH's lack of talent) then you wouldn't want to see them go.  The rest of those guys are some of the worst wrestlers I've ever seen and if I ran a promotion I wouldn't hire them even if they agreed to work for free.  I'm pretty sure that I, with ZERO training, could work a better match than those idiots.  Those guys literally have no talent at all.  They can't wrestle and they can't talk so they're completely worthless as wrestlers.  No has ever bought a ticket to see a guy because he has big muscles and looks cool or because JR calls him a hoss.

Offline Famicom

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2005, 08:47:08 AM »
Oh, I absolutely know Chavo and Nova are very capable wrestlers, but they won't be when stuck with such rediculous gimmicks. Kerwin is a Hassan incident waiting to happen again, and Simon Dean is just a failed experiment that they don't seem to be too interested in fixing. I'd rather WWE just outright drop them so they can go to another fed where they can aptly apply their abilities.
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2005, 08:09:40 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Famicom
Kerwin is a Hassan incident waiting to happen again


Since when to people get offended by someone trying to be white? I mean it works for Coach. ZING!

Anyway, RAW never had a problem when Hassan was on that show. Sponsers care less about cable I guess.


Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2005, 09:04:53 PM »
"Anyway, RAW never had a problem when Hassan was on that show. Sponsers care less about cable I guess."

The WWE was able to get away with the Hassan character on Raw because back then he was an Arabic-American complaining that Americans were treating him unfairly because of his Middle Eastern heritage.  If you think about it that should actually make him a sympathetic character but whatever.  After he went to Smackdown they transformed his character into a full out TERRORIST, had his lackey get fed to the Underkater, and then had a bunch of hooded guys choke out the Undertaker with piano wire and carry off the lackey in a manner not unlike how one would carry off a martyr.  And all this happened a day after the bombings in London.  THAT is why everyone freaked out over Hassan.  The WWE took the character to incredibly offensive levels and at the worst possible time as well.  To be fair the angle was taped before the bombings took place but the angle was so tasteless that you know someone was going to make a big stink about it regardless.

Offline Rancid Planet

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2005, 09:17:00 PM »
UPN still stands for Ultimate Pansy Network. Can't take a little tasteless gimmick. What did they think they signed up for when they brought in SD? Vince didn't get rich marketing wholesome innocence. Oh, yeah....the 80's....well...nevermind.

Oooh WAIT! Demolition! They were subversively sexual and weird. Snap, I'm right again. All is well in the world now.

Offline Famicom

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2005, 06:12:22 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Rancid Planet
Quote

Originally posted by: Famicom
Kerwin is a Hassan incident waiting to happen again


Since when to people get offended by someone trying to be white? I mean it works for Coach. ZING!

Anyway, RAW never had a problem when Hassan was on that show. Sponsers care less about cable I guess.


Not necessarily for him acting white, but comments like "Shelton Benjamin, although a great athlete, will never be white", while they may not hurt him, can hurt other talent on the show (not personally, but hurt their connection with the fans) especially if they LOST to Kerwin in a match. Plus it draws out a different group of fans that I hope WWE doesn't want to be associated with. Anything for publicity I suppose.

....so have we officially hijacked this thread yet?
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Offline jasonditz

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RE:Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2005, 09:36:34 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Famicom
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
I'm not 100% clear on exactly how the licensing works out, but if somebody else wanted to try their hand at a WWE-licensed game, couldn't they approach JAKKS Pacific for a license as well?


I think WWE granted a ~15 year contract to THQ to publish their games back in 1999. Whether or not WWE is capable of extending the rights to another company would depend on the contract. Since EA hasn't bought into it yet I assume it's not possible. I do know that THQ could hire another developer to work on a WWE game, but that isn't exactly solving the problem here.


Is it WWE directly? If so... why do all the games have JAKKS Pacific logos in them? Seems like if this was a straight WWE-THQ transaction they'd have nothing to do with it.

Offline Nile Boogie

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RE: Will the Next Generation of WWE Games finally get it right?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2005, 03:21:54 AM »
I'm not Arabic and the Hassan gimick offended me. That was just way too much even for the WWE.

Why did THQ stop using AKI for thier games. If it ain't broke...
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