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Messages - Oedo

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I would think it was obvious that the competitive viability discussion is a proxy for mechanical depth/"game feel". I'm no pro player, but I still liked Melee the best, and from what I've read the Melee competitive die-hards have pretty specific and understandable problems with how Brawl and 4 play. I don't think it's crazy to think people would gravitate toward a new game that didn't have compromised physics, 90% unviable characters, or whathaveyou. Another bigger, messier, pretty good party game is not that interesting to me at this point, even if I'm not personally able to reach an upper-tier play level. Obviously Nintendo is not particularly interested in my edge-case predilections, but I think they could and should take some risks with the next game beyond "have the 64DD be a fighter" or "make it slightly less/more slow and floaty". Buuut there's now a rumor that the new game started out as Smash4 deluxe and expanded its spec far enough to be marketed as a sequel, and if that's the case we probably know what to expect outside of some tweaking.

As I've said before, there's no reason to believe that most Melee players will abandon the game for any other Smash Bros. game at this point. They've invested years and years into Melee (over a decade for some pro players), most of them still greatly enjoy playing it, and the competitive scene continues to be very active. There is seemingly no incentive for most of them to jump to a new Smash Bros. game (no matter how good or how different it is), and there's seemingly no incentive for Nintendo to make any significant decisions about the new Smash Bros. game based on that community.

I'll try to be clearer since I'm causing confusion. (And Ike and Roy absolutely are based on the same Marth special moveset, which is the "soul" of a character in my book. There's no need for Marth, Ike, Roy, and Lucina to all co-exist. It's different tires on the same bicycle. Like I said, stuff about the damage gradient on the swords or hitboxes or whatever is missing the point. But we're setting that aside!)

-Is it not true that Melee remains significantly more popular than any other version of the game for tournaments? Is the Street Fighter II scene bigger than SF V?

-Regardless of competitive stuff, the base game is stale. Squeezing in an increasingly marginal extra 15 characters into the same Smash4 framework is a diminishing returns proposition. I'd rather they take another crack at reinventing the no-combo-input fighting genre, and/or rebuild a smaller core set of characters from the ground up to make things fresh instead of having 50 characters that are significantly worse than (or redundant with) 25 other characters (and hey, that could even help the competitive stuff too!). I'd personally prefer novel mechanics over maximal fan service. And if what you say is true, this should be fine because the games are all totally separate from and coeval with each other!

-Also, having 75 characters makes it less likely they'll have meaningful single player challenges and such. Smash4 was quite disappointing in this respect already. I want the targets back!

-Some random ideas: Incorporate counters into shielding or dodging or something instead of a bunch of characters having it as a special move. Remix the clones into the custom move system so there are single roster slots that you can change into variants like you do with costumes now.

But again, just spitballing. Hopefully they've got some surprises in store. Even just adding stock online modes for randos and having the option to remove dynamic elements like the yellow Mega Man monster from stages would be an improvement.

Melee's competitive scene is probably larger, yeah, but I still don't understand the relevance of bringing that up. You could make the next Smash Bros. game better balanced, give it more interesting mechanics, or do just about anything, and most Melee players would just keep playing Melee because that's the only game they want to play (and the scene would most likely remain larger as a result). If you look at Smash 4's competitive scene on its own, it was at EVO Japan 2018, will be at the main EVO tournament for the fourth straight year, and has large tournaments taking place regularly. The fact that Melee's competitive scene is larger just says that it's even more successful and, as I alluded to earlier, Nintendo is not going to convert that fanbase no matter how good or how different the next Smash Bros. game is.

When you start talking about significantly altering the gameplay or rebuilding from the ground up, you might as well make a new series at that point. If you're going to greatly change the mechanics and focus on a smaller set of characters that are largely distinct from their current Smash Bros. iterations, you've basically rebooted the series. Maybe that's what you want and what you're trying to get at, but given that most fans are happy with the core gameplay in its current form (with most complaints being levied at stuff like single-player content or online modes) and the fact that the series continues to enjoy great critical and commercial success, I don't think that's a path Nintendo really needs to follow.

Sure, I'm just spitballing and admittedly haven't followed the competitive scene very closely. My vague impression was that Smash4 has still yet to displace Melee as the go-to game due to a combination of how it plays and how the characters have shaken out (with an emphasis on DLC fighters throwing things out of whack).

But anyway, the point wasn't arbitrarily cutting characters (and sorry, Mewtwo and Lucario feel very similar, as do Roy and Ike, they all have practically the same moves, that's what people actually look at who aren't into the autistic competitive stuff), it was significantly retooling the game. Smash4 was fine, but it definitely felt like the game is settling down into a staid form. Smash Bros. Again with 15 more characters isn't that interesting a prospect and I think it'd be cool if they went back to the drawing board with a more focused cast they can then build on.

It has little to do with characters. They're just two very different games. It's understandable to assume that they compete because they're part of the same series and that the success of one game's scenes has a direct impact on the other's, but that really isn't the case. It's more like Street Fighter V vs. Tekken 7 than it is Street Fighter V vs. Street Fighter IV. Melee players will continue to play Melee, while Smash 4 players will continue to play Smash 4 and the Smash sequels that will almost certainly continue to follow Smash 4's foundation closer than Melee's. There's very little overlap in terms of competitive playerbase (especially at the top level), and both communities can co-exist and thrive on their own. All of that is to say, whether or not Smash 4 and subsequent Smash games displace Melee doesn't say much about how their competitive communities are doing.

I'm a bit confused by the second part of your post (even setting aside the part about Ike and Roy having "practically the same moves," which is not true by any measure). On one hand, you want to ignore the competitive angle and just look at characters from the perspective of the larger audience, but then you're advocating that they significantly reduce the size of the roster in order to prioritize overhauling the gameplay and/or mechanics. For most people, the appeal of Smash Bros. is that it's an extremely fun and well made game where they can play as their favourite Nintendo or video game characters. While I'm sure most people who really liked Lucina in Fire Emblem Awakening would have liked for her to have a truly unique moveset, at the end of the day, they're mostly just happy that they can play as Lucina. If you ask most people whether they want more characters with gameplay that's similar to Smash 4 or very different gameplay that comes with far fewer characters, the response would overwhelmingly favour the first option.

Seriously, the biggest appeal to each new Smash Bros is how large the rosters keep getting and the kind of characters they keep adding.  Plus because of the large roster, we're able to get more lessor known characters as well.  We got characters like Little Mac and Duck Hunt in the last Smash Bros, because Pit and ROB were already added in Brawl, and they got in because Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch were in Melee.  If you start cutting the roster then it's these kind of characters that we lose out on.

Yup. It's fair to say that they should avoid putting in more "clone" characters (and overhaul the move sets of existing characters that fall into that category) and inflating the roster count that way, but I don't understand what's gained by scaling back the size of the roster by removing unique characters (or limiting how many more unique characters are added). It seems a bit arbitrary.

What balance issues have hurt Smash 4's competitive scene? The first two major tournaments of the year have had a good representation of characters in top eight: there were eight different characters used at Genesis V and ten different characters used at EVO Japan 2018. This type of character diversity has been a consistent theme with competitive Smash 4 for a while now.

Balance is an issue for a competitive fighting game when you see the same handful of characters over and over again and both competitors and spectators get tired of it (or when characters are broken, obviously). That a large portion of the Smash 4 roster isn't competitively viable doesn't mean it's poorly balanced as a competitive fighting game. Put simply, actual number of viable characters is what's important, not the percentage of the roster that falls into that category.

Not a surprise, but if anyone still had doubts, Sakurai seemingly confirmed that he's involved in the development of this game.

Inklings and Breath of the Wild Link are a very strong start in terms of new characters, and whether this is largely based on Super Smash Bros. for Wii U or not, I'm sure we'll end up with a good amount of new characters and content. Ultimately, that's what's most important. I'm super excited about this.

I do hope Ryu and especially Cloud return (one way or another). They were among the most fun characters to play in the Wii U game, and I would probably consider Cloud my main character at this point (along with Sheik).

TalkBack / Re: Original Luigi's Mansion Being Ported to 3DS
« on: March 08, 2018, 09:31:25 PM »
There was a video posted a few days ago for the Switch's first anniversary where Shinya Takahashi mentioned that Nintendo's thinking has started to shift from one Switch unit per household to one Switch unit per person. That seems like a tacit admission that they're going to move more towards positioning it as a handheld. Last year, Kimishima mentioned that Nintendo's feedback showed that there were already more instances of multiple Switch units per household than they were expecting, so it seems like the market is already receptive to the idea as well.

It's a fair point that Switch isn't currently priced like a handheld, but honestly, it doesn't really seem to matter. Hardware, software, and accessory sales are great, and the price drops and revisions will come eventually. This just seems like Nintendo trying to cash in on the 3DS userbase.

I'm definitely interested in picking this up, as I never got around to playing it on Wii U. Hopefully the new content ends up being relatively substantial.

What an awesome way to finish the Nintendo Direct! This is probably my most anticipated Switch game of the year now (at least until we learn more about Fire Emblem Switch).

61 this Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 1 + Shippuden UNS 2 & 3 or Shippuden UNS 2-4?

If this package includes UNS 1, I recommend skipping it & going right to 2.

It's the first three games. I didn't pay attention to the name before (and I just assumed if they were leaving one game out, it would be the fourth game), but putting "Shippuden" in the title does seem a bit strange.

TalkBack / Re: Nintendo Direct To Air March 8
« on: March 07, 2018, 01:02:03 PM »
I'd be surprised if we got any significant 3DS announcements from Nintendo. I think they're pretty much done with both internally developed 3DS games and big collaborative efforts with third party developers. The biggest selling points for the system at this point are its existing library of amazing games and its price point, and 3DS software sales have been trending down, so I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for them to keep devoting resources to new 3DS games. But hey, who knows. If they decide to keep bringing good games to the platform, I'll keep playing them.

More generally, one notable 3DS announcement I can think of is the 3DS version of Dragon Quest XI coming to the West. We still don't know anything regarding platforms for the Western release (despite it being announced many months ago at this point). It would be nice if we got some information on the Switch version too.

TalkBack / Re: Nintendo Direct To Air March 8
« on: March 07, 2018, 11:33:29 AM »
Fire Emblem Switch and more Yoshi Switch seem like safe bets on the Switch side. I think there's a reasonable chance that Nintendo at least announces one of their big games for the second half of the year too (I'm guessing Smash Bros., but Animal Crossing could make sense too), but they could also do that in a smaller Nintendo Direct sometime later, so I'm not getting my hopes up too high on that front. Regardless, even getting a trailer and possibly gameplay for Fire Emblem Switch would make this a super exciting Nintendo Direct for me.

Nintendo Gaming / Re: Switch Discussion Thread (Nearing Year 2)
« on: March 03, 2018, 02:22:41 PM »
Of what Nintendo has currently announced for 2018, only Fire Emblem Switch and Yoshi Switch seem slated for the second half of the year. Those aren't the only games they'll release in that window, and it would be shocking if they tried to position those as their big holiday games, so it stands to reason that there will be landmark titles released later in the year.

It's also worth keeping in mind that there's currently only one significant Nintendo EPD project announced for 2018: Nintendo Labo. I highly doubt that's the only big project we get from them this year. Perhaps the rest of their output will largely target the same (or a similar) demographic as Nintendo Labo, so it may not matter to a lot of people here anyway, but that remains to be seen. One way or another, I'm still reasonably confident that 2018 will end up being a really good year for Switch (both from a first-party perspective and overall).

TalkBack / Re: Know Your Developers: Monolith Soft
« on: March 02, 2018, 06:55:05 PM »
Fantastic video! Had no idea a husband and wife duo lead Monosoft, very cool. Perfect timing for Xenoweek. Finished Xenoblade 2, 2 weeks ago and somehow found the time to finish Xenoblade 1 for the first time (from 20 hour save point) and looks like I’ll finish X for the first time in the next few days (chapter 7 save file)!

Really glad 2 got me back into these, amazing games.   

Oh wow lol. The gaming high you're on right now must be unreal.

TalkBack / Re: Xenoblade Voting Results
« on: March 02, 2018, 06:50:59 PM »
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 shipped over a million in its first month (and has likely still sold respectably since then), while we never had any indication that the first two games managed to come close to that in total sales. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 may have won anyway, but I think the gap being this large is almost certainly influenced by the fact that more people played it.

The one that won is the only one I haven't played so I couldn't say I agree or disagree and the other two are so close in percentages that it isn't like one is getting a raw deal either.

I haven't beaten either of the first two and probably got further in the first one.  I actually never even got to the point where I was using a mech in X.  I love these games but they're unfortunately really huge and I just can never seem to dedicate enough consecutive free time to get far with them.  Something in life comes up, grown up **** if you will, and I don't end up playing the game for a few weeks and then it all just falls by the wayside because I've forgotten where I am and what I was doing.  This is a problem with games in general but it really affects these titles because they're so long.  I can fit a 20-30 hour game in no problem but 100 hours?  I wish at least one of these came out when I was under 23.  I would have loved these games and had the flexibility then to play them fully.

If you have a New 3DS and handhelds afford you more time for gaming, Xenoblade Chronicles 3D is a great port.

TalkBack / Re: The Case For Xenoblade Chronicles 2
« on: March 02, 2018, 12:20:43 PM »
When picking which game is best in the series, there really is no wrong answer unless it’s Xenoblade Chronicles X. But seriously, each game excels in different areas and appeals to different gamers. While it’s a no brainer that the story driven games are what I prefer, I love that the series can appeal to a more broad audience. Regardless of which route the fourth installment might take, I’ll eagerly await to see what Monolith Soft has in store for us because I know it’ll be something worth waiting for. But please be Xenoblade Chronicles 3 and not X2.

We can have a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel that focuses a lot on story though! At the beginning, Xenoblade Chronicles X was envisioned as a game with a lot more story than it ended up having. According to the game's director, Takahashi wrote a lot for this game, and there are a ton of unused story elements in the Xenoblade Chronicles X artbook (which obviously doesn't include nearly everything). It's not like they wanted the main story to be light on narrative until the very end: it was a difficult choice they had to make in the middle of development. That's not to say that I wouldn't want Xenoblade Chronicles 3 more myself though (I haven't thought about it too much and, much like yourself, I'll be super excited about the next game in the series regardless of where Monolith Soft takes it).

TalkBack / Re: Xenoblade Voting Results
« on: March 02, 2018, 12:05:48 PM »
All three games are so amazing that it's kind of hard to be too upset with any way the voting could have played out. For me, it's Xenoblade Chronicles > Xenoblade Chronicles X > Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but this could change depending on the Xenoblade Chronicles 2 updates we get throughout the year. I'm really looking forward to the story DLC later in the year, and even the version 1.3.0 update that released today is pretty substantial.

Podcast Discussion / Re: Episode 558: The Quest to be Ruthlessly Topical
« on: February 12, 2018, 01:23:42 PM »
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 doing over one million in its first month makes me feel pretty confident about the future of the series. It should end up between 1.5 and 2 million, which is what both Fire Emblem Awakening and Fates sold as of the last numbers we got from Nintendo. Xenoblade Chronicles X is also badly in need of a sequel, so there is an obvious path for where they could take the series next as well (I know it was suggested on last week's episode that a Switch port of Xenoblade Chronicles X could "add an ending," but there was so much content cut from the story that I think you would need an entire game for it).

People seem to think Monolith Soft is moving in a different direction for their next project based on art and job listings that came up a few months ago, so I suppose the rationale Greg used could still apply from that perspective (although I still expect the Xenoblade series to continue in the relatively near future, even if Monolith Soft's next game does end up being something else).

TalkBack / Re: Nintendo World Report Tournament of GOTY 2017
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:29:01 PM »
It was always going to be Zelda and Mario in the finals, but this really highlights just what a tremendous year 2017 was for Nintendo. Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Breath of the Wild, and Super Mario Odyssey in year one of a console is still amazing to me.

TalkBack / Re: It Is Time for a Switch.
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:16:20 PM »
It's good to know that the site will continue to be in the hands of someone who started out as a fan and really cares about it, and someone who fully understands what makes Nintendo World Report special. As I said in Neal's thread, I've immensely enjoyed the content the site has put out since I found it (be it written content, videos, or podcasts), and I'm sure that will continue with you at the helm, John!

TalkBack / Re: Another Change at the Top
« on: February 03, 2018, 12:00:16 PM »
Thanks for all your hard work, Neal! Nintendo World Report has been a source of great enjoyment for me since I found the site a few years ago, and I'm super glad that a site and a community like this one can continue to thrive. Your work is truly appreciated, man, and I'm glad to hear that you'll still be sticking around in significant role for a while yet.

Best of luck to you and your family!

Super Mario 3D World is also a family game, and as was mentioned on this episode, they found the co-op in that game to be more enjoyable. I don't remember anyone on the podcast saying that the co-op mode should not be fun for families and people with children, and that's certainly not what I'm saying. It's just that they can (and should) try to serve both audiences better.

TalkBack / Re: Free Update For Fire Emblem Warriors Due Next Week
« on: November 11, 2017, 11:07:57 AM »
I started playing this game a few days ago after getting around 700 Power Moons in Super Mario Odyssey and wanting a bit of a break. Man, it almost hurts to know that so much of the discussion surrounding this game was only focused on the character choices prior to its release and may have had a significant impact on its sales. Koei Tecmo translated Fire Emblem to Warriors gameplay incredibly well, and the characters they did include were clearly handled with a lot of care.

In any case, it's nice to see free updates. The costumes for Rowan and Lianna look cool, and I hope we get some new costumes for other characters as well.

Sometimes I think people forget that these games are made for a wide wide range of people. The Co op mechanic is amazing with my kids because I can help with cappy or I can control Mario in harder sections and have them help with cappy and they love it. Much more than the Galaxy coop.

That's the problem, isn't it? These games are made for a broad audience, as you say, and the yet the co-op mode only seems to be useful for people with young children. I'm fairly certain that Guillaume's partner is not a 6-year-old, so you should understand why they didn't find it as enjoyable (especially coming off a game like Super Mario 3D World, which had great co-op for experienced players).

Also having a bunch of moons and some being super easy to get is perfectly fine. My kinds (4 and 6) find some moons way way too hard but some of the easier ones that are just “laying around” they love cause they still are having fun and they still get that sense of reward from getting a moon and it keeps them going instead of hitting a brick wall and just running around for an hour without getting one moon because adults complained that every moon should be a challenge.

Yeah, it is fine for the main game. The problem is that there are many superfluous post-game Power Moons as well. Just as it isn't unreasonable to expect Mario games to be very accessible for children or less experienced gamers during the main game, it's not unreasonable to expect that the game sheds the fluff and delivers a more lean platforming challenge after the credits roll. Having Power Moons that are in plain sight, require no platforming challenge to get to, and marked on the map as post-game content does make it seem like they were just trying to get the Power Moon count up.

I do think the RFN crew sometimes comes across as more critical of a game than they intend to, but this episode didn't really feel like one of those weeks. I was actually surprised at how effusive James was in his praise for this game, and the discussion felt pretty balanced overall.

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