Author Topic: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?  (Read 10538 times)

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Offline UncleBob

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Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« on: November 17, 2013, 11:40:58 PM »
So, I'm posting this without running it through anyone else on the moderation team (which consists of everyone above me and no one below me, as I'm low-man on the totem pole), but I wanted to throw this out there to get some idea of what folks think about it.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a moderation should be between the moderation team and the individual receiving the wrist-slapping unless A.) It's a perma-ban, as I feel other members of the forum should know why someone was banned (generally, they always do anyway) or B.) The moderated individual makes the incident public, thus the moderation team should be able to speak up and clarify any details.

With that said, I was considering something... different.  What would folks think about having a singular thread where anything that I do (and, hopefully, other moderators would consider taking part) that is an 'official' wrist slapping action would be recorded (outside of SPAM accounts, of course).

Basically, I (we?) would link back to the offending post(s), list what rule(s) were broken and what action (if any) was taken.  This would include posts that have been "reported" even when no action was taken (however, I will NOT reveal the individual(s) who reported any particular post - that is non-negotiable!)

This would allow for a more open and transparent moderation system so that folks know when reported posts are dealt with and will give the general population more insight into why a particular action may have been taken at a particular time.

I still believe that a moderation should be kept private unless the individual wants to make it public, but if there is a large majority that is in favor of trying out a more public system, then I'll consider it.

Thoughts?
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Offline Urkel

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 04:18:29 AM »
This place has moderators?
"ROFS? Rolling on the floor... starving?"- Phoenix Wright

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 04:20:38 AM »
Nope.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 01:28:46 AM »
Quote
Personally, I'm of the opinion that a moderation should be between the moderation team and the individual receiving the wrist-slapping unless A.) It's a perma-ban, as I feel other members of the forum should know why someone was banned (generally, they always do anyway) or B.) The moderated individual makes the incident public, thus the moderation team should be able to speak up and clarify any details.

In all honesty, I really don't have any problem with this current system of moderation. I really don't need to know that User A received a 20% warning and his post was edited for mentioning piracy and User B received a 10% warning for trolling in a thread. Maybe there are some people that need to be reassured action is being taken from time to time but generally most times moderation is given, it is usually for something that's pretty minor on the forums or easily missed if you aren't paying attention to a particular thread.

I do think it might be beneficial to mention something about bannings. Maybe even have a banning thread in here which sounds sort of ridiculous but if an incident occurs, a mod could just post who was banned, why and for how long. It might help remind people of what is beyond permissible behaviour and maybe even clarify things that aren't always spelled out in the rules. As well, there have been times where I've logged on and discovered a discussion about someone banned and am then trying to catch up and figure out what happened. Having an area/thread like that, I could go and be instantly informed.

As for option B, I think the moderators speaking up is what would be expected and is probably why the person moderated is bringing it up in the first place.  I know back with the S-U-P-E-R ban, there was frustration then because when people started asking for clarification, none was given. Things got testy when I tried to pursue it with Insano threatening me with a ban for bringing it up a lot in the funhouse. The only answer we got was that it kept getting extended but no reason given. If a reason can't be given to do that, then how is that fair or appropriate action from the moderation staff?

Likewise, there is now frustration on the status of the mafia forum and if we can use it again. I've had a few messages from people telling me they support me in this latest crusade of mine. One person sent me this in a message:

"I also want to say that I do support you in your quest to get reinstated with mod powers over the Mafia forum, or heck, even get a response as to what's going on. The reason why I haven't posted in the topic you made in the feedback forum, however, is that I'd rather not become a target for the shenanigans of the mods."

I find that last part the most interesting. I know you and Insanolord feel that you are pretty lenient and patient with this motley crew you have to patrol and for the most part, I agree. But that doesn't mean the rest of the forum sees you that way. Take changing Oblivion's name to Oblivious. Whatever. I know the guy probably doesn't realize how he comes across on this forum and he makes Unclebob the source of all that he sees wrong on this forum. Let him deal with that on his own. How many other people are agreeing with him on that? But when you change his name like that across the whole forum and then have a tag-team action with Unclebob stating it is an acceptable response for his name calling, (yes, basic name calling) and then Insanolord jumps in for more defense with a snarky, "oh wow, can't take your own medicine, stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself" response, then you actually start to give credence to his assertations. I know it sucks to have that sort of double standard but, like a policeman, it sort of comes with the job. And honestly, you probably don't have to prove that point. Pretty sure most us knew that already.

I will say this, Oblivion does have a mellower side than he often displays. Take a look at the last post in the joke thread that BnM started years ago. One of the last jokes was a mostly negatively received effort of mine to create a joke about the Boston Marathon tragedy. So, already a rock-solid premise, right? Maybe that's why the thread has been dormant so long. I killed it with that one. Anyways, Oblivion has the last post in it and even though he didn't like the joke, he was the poster with the most encouraging message and even offered a compliment of good effort though. I know a lot of people can sometimes come across one-dimensional in their posts by what they post about or how they do it, yet from time to time they can still surprise you because everyone here has different sides to them. It's something I try to remember.

As much as people may think he is a disgruntled or angry person, he's still posting here despite the smites or the arguments against his posts. Why? If he is that upset with everything here as people think, why hasn't he left? Because he has made connections here. On Miiverse, he has people from NWR listed on his friend list and he is on theirs. People cared for him when he was depressed. And there's still a common interest and common ground with him and us which is the purpose of these forums. Being video game enthusiasts. Maybe if people remembered that instead of viewing him as a user to take down, you'd hear a different voice from him. If you always put someone on the defensive, how can you expect their behaviour to change if you won't change yours? I've tried showing patience with Oblivion, sometimes it has been rewarded, sometimes it hasn't. Maybe everyone is right and maybe I'm wrong. But I don't see how it hurts to try.


Now, I've gotten a bit off track here and made this post rather lengthy (surprise, surprise) but the reason I've sort of dwelt on it is this. Getting back to this point: "The moderated individual makes the incident public, thus the moderation team should be able to speak up and clarify any details." My concern on it is this. Sometimes I wonder if the reason there is silence or that the moderator team doesn't speak up is because they know or realize that the reason or details they give on an incident might be reasonably refuted or clearly shown to be unfair or even wrong. Would the moderation team then be willing to change their judgment or would they fear that this would lead to more people questioning or arguing their decisions every time they did something thereby meaning they would still enforce their actions no matter what?

For instance, when Oblivion's name was changed to Oblivious, it was cited because he had changed Unclebob's name in his posts. Unclebob then mentioned that it was a funhouse thing and not to be taken seriously. The problem is that changing a username meant he was affected outside of the funhouse domain. Now, again, I think it was a semi-minor thing. People are given titles because of things that happen in the funhouse and that is something every user can see beyond the confines of that forum but no one complains about it being unfair and usually just ask to have the title removed if upset. The idea is pretty similar between those two actions although I do agree that changing a username is a more overreaching step than a title change.
 
Then there is Crimm. He changed the word filter so that the word eg(g) shows up as seed. He did it to mess with a thread in the funhouse. No big deal. Mods have had that right forever. That said, by using the word filter, it does affect the rest of the forums. That is why I currently have to type Yoshi's eg(g) with the added punctuation or it will become seed and sound dirty. Once again, something happening in the funhouse that has branched out and affected the other forums.

Back when the free super crew was given bans, a big reason was because we took the idea outside of the funhouse into the other forums. (Which was the reason why it was done that way.) Still, if we had kept our actions in the funhouse, there wouldn't have been any reason for bannings. That was part of the explanation. Yet, clearly, stuff coming out of the funhouse and affecting other forum threads is something that happens and it has clearly happened from moderator actions. My involvement in that scheme was to add the words Free Super into legitimate threads I had created and were in use at the time. Others did thread bumping and other stuff. They can feel free to defend themselves and try and argue that stuff on their own. I did not. Moreover, for such a serious crime, I believe only two of my thread titles were changed back to their original title. The rest were left with the words in them and people still posted that day in them, unaffected. I changed the rest of them back myself.
 
My actions may have spilled out from the funhouse but they didn't affect people's usernames, weren't insults, and didn't do anything to alter the words that someone might use in a post creating confusion for other users reading them. Nor did my actions keep people from understanding the purpose of the threads I added the words to or keep them from being able to carry on normally in posting in it as further evidenced by the fact that the mods didn't see the need to restore those titles back to their original creation. Yet, apparently, that was so horrible, it seems that to have the limited moderator powers to host a mafia game would be too dangerous while ignoring that those with full moderator powers have committed the same error and in a worse way than what I did. Will there be one day bans in those cases? Will there be discussions on matters when moderators are also at fault? Moreover, if people fear attacks from the mods for voicing an opinion because there seems to be valid evidence for such a fear, will we ever get any real talk on these forums or will we just be doomed to suffer the same problems over and over?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 02:26:19 AM by Khushrenada »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 03:21:19 AM »
Wowza.  I wondered why no one had responded for so long... it was because you were taking so much time typing all that up. ;)

I won't hit every point, but there are a few things I want to address/clarify.  Know that just because I didn't address every point you made, I did read them and take them to heart.

I know back with the S-U-P-E-R ban, there was frustration then because when people started asking for clarification, none was given.  Things got testy when I tried to pursue it with Insano threatening me with a ban for bringing it up a lot in the funhouse. The only answer we got was that it kept getting extended but no reason given. If a reason can't be given to do that, then how is that fair or appropriate action from the moderation staff?

To clarify, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Super's ban was extended a singular time.  This was after he created not one, but two different accounts to circumvent his ban.  I think most folks would agree that this was a reasonable reason to extend his ban.

As for not telling random folks who asked about it - as I said here, I've always felt that a moderation was between the individual and the moderator that took the action, unless the individual choose to contest it.  See, this is the perfect case as to why I don't like to comment on an action that another mod takes - I didn't know why his ban was extended, so I simply couldn't comment on it - but once I looked into it and got an answer, then I completely agree with that decision - and without having the facts beforehand, I could have ended up with a foot-in-mouth thing going on.

Quote
Likewise, there is now frustration on the status of the mafia forum and if we can use it again.

Again, not my place to comment on it, since I have no power or authority to add mods, but I think we can all pretty much agree that the actions that lead to your temp ban and removal from moderation status were not kosher.

Now, because of that (again, I assume), not only are those in power reluctant to re-modify you, but they're reluctant to give mod powers out to just about anyone (and with the uptick in spam of late, it'd be handy to have another person on here, but I haven't really asked or anything).  And, in my opinion, this is completely understandable.

In my honest opinion (since this is a "Real Talk" thread), it's made worse by the fact that you seem pretty unrepentant for the actions you took - and every time you make a post taking jabs about your lack of mod status, it shows.  Remember, you not only participated, but pretty much organized a fairly disruptive forum event the week of E3 - a time that is historically the busiest time of the forum.  I think it takes some time for those wounds to heal and every time you make another post taking jabs at it, you're ripping those scabs right off.  HOWEVER - that's just how I'm viewing that, as an outsider, who has no control or say regarding if you ever get the mod status back over any aspect of the forum.

Quote
Take changing Oblivion's name to Oblivious. [...]

On this - It was amusing to me that Oblivion had brought it up previously when another poster kept taking jabs at him by changing his name.  Therefore, when he did it to me in three different posts, I did the same to him.  Immature?  Sure.  Another option is that he could have been warned/banned - but I felt that would be too extreme.  I knew he was just making jokes with "UncleBoob", so I thought I'd have one back at him.  I did not realize that he'd be so crazy upset about it.  As soon as he did, the name was changed back.  Total amount of time the name was changed for?  Less than a singular day.  Meanwhile, has he made any attempt to go in and fix any one of the three posts he did the same thing in?  Nada.

Tied into this, I'd like to point out the efforts I've gone in creating the "Title Wipe" thread, where users can get their titles cleared out - and that I haven't gone in and changed any titles (except for title wipes) without direct and express authorization from the individuals involved, and typically then, I still don't do it.

[skipping ahead in your post here a second...]
Quote
For instance, when Oblivion's name was changed to Oblivious, it was cited because he had changed Unclebob's name in his posts. Unclebob then mentioned that it was a funhouse thing and not to be taken seriously.

This is wholly incorrect and is based off of an incorrect reading of the post where I "mentioned" it.
Timeline replay:
Someone made a typo-o in their post outside the Funhouse.
They made a crack that they thought a moderator did it.
It was clarified that no, in fact, it had always been that way.
Oblivion made yet another snippy remark about how horrible we moderators are, changing posts and thread titles, that it was an understandable conclusion.
I then made a Funhouse topic where I clarified that no, we really don't do this outside of the Funhouse.

I never claimed that his temporary name change was Funhouse-only and I refuted that claim the first time it came up.

Quote
Would the moderation team then be willing to change their judgment or would they fear that this would lead to more people questioning or arguing their decisions every time they did something thereby meaning they would still enforce their actions no matter what?

Again, I cannot speak for any other moderators, but you bring up an interesting point.  I did give one member of this forum a warning and, when that member contacted me and clarified, I quickly removed the warning and apologized.  I'd be interested in seeing if that member would like to come forth and say anything about that.

In a couple of other cases, I've given warnings (and one ban) and have had members dispute them.  In cases where I feel that the punishment is adequate, I reffer them to another moderator to plead their case - and will always be okay with what any other moderator decides (since I'm the total low man on the totem pole 'round these parts).

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My involvement in that scheme was to add the words Free Super into legitimate threads I had created and were in use at the time.

Point of clarification here, your involvement also involved using your moderator powers to change many, many unrelated threads in the Mafia forum as well.
 
Quote
My actions may have spilled out from the funhouse but they didn't affect people's usernames, weren't insults, and didn't do anything to alter the words that someone might use in a post creating confusion for other users reading them.
....the week of E3.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 03:46:28 AM »
You know, to be honest, as much anger as I display when I'm on here, Khush is kind of right. I probably spend more time reading people's opinions on the latest in news, entertainment, video games, etc and reply or not replying. I love the podcasts and the sense of community here.


And regarding not changing your names? I felt like it wasn't necessary due to the fact that they were posts and not a complete name change.


Also, am I mysterious member you are referring to? I vaguely remember being misunderstood during a debate and getting a warning; I think it might have been one of my first.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 04:15:26 AM »
No, it's not "necessary" to edit the three posts with "UncleBoob" - it just seems like a complete and total double standard that you reacted the way you did, but made no effort to correct your own posts.

And yes, you're the exact member I'm talking about.  Your very first actual "warning" on the site was because you made a topic that I took as negatively aimed at another member, but I didn't realize that the topic was *really* supporting him. 

Quote from: Nintendo World Report Forums
Come on - even in jest, you had to know that topic wasn't a good idea.  You don't get into a flame war with someone, then start a topic aimed at degrading and trolling them.
10% warning - only because you don't have any other warnings issued to you.
-UncleBob

Are you fucking kidding me? I was on his fucking side! I started that topic because EVERYONE HATES HIM. I was never in a fucking flame war, you made a huge mistake, bro.

Even then, as horribly spiteful as you were, screaming and cursing at me, I realized (and admitted to you) my mistake, removed the moderation and gave you authorization to recreate your post (but with advice that if the thread went south, I'd have to re-evaluate the situation).

So, to answer Khush's question - yes, if I mod someone, and I'm shown to be in the wrong, I will admit it.  If I still believe I'm right, I'll suggest they speak to another mod about it.  However, I likely won't overturn any other mods... since, as I said, I'm low man on the totem pole. ;)
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 11:33:12 AM »
Did you really just post a plan private message? Nice one.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 12:12:46 PM »
See clarification helps.

I looked back at the messages S-U-P-E-R sent me and these were the first 3:

Quote
Super here. Some forum fascist extended my ban for another week without an explanation! During E3, even! That's ice cold!

Quote
If you want to do PR for me, my ban date said it expired on the 10th, and then that day it jumped to the 16th. Also banning me during E3? Ice cold! God damn!

Quote
Just passed the 10 day mark and it says I still have 3 days left! What is this!

I think it is the third message where I made the error. When I read that, I took it to mean there was a third action against him. But looking at the time line, 3 days left would have taken him to June 16. It was after thinking that his ban had been furthered a third time that I later came up with the Free Super idea. Perhaps if there had been clarification or communication about the extended ban that error would have been caught. In fact, I posted that last message in the funhouse and that was when Insanolord asked if I wanted a ban also. Then other people started chiming in about how it was more unfair. Missed opportunity for clarification. When it was finally mentioned after that fiasco that a good reason the ban was probably extended was because he circumvented the rules because of a dupe, then no one contested the ruling.


I appreciate your comments about my post as well. Yeah, once I started talking about things, guess I had a lot more to say on it than I realized so no worries about not responding to everything. But thanks to your comments, I get your position on the "Oblivious" thing more. I never realized that "About the Funhouse" thread came up from different circumstances. That's why I posted the huh? message right below it but I think the formating didn't work for that image. The reason I asked was because I didn't know why you had created that thread. Then BnM posted right after about "Oblivious" and that was the direction the rest of the thread took. Looking it over again, I don't think you stated as clearly as you might have thought that the thread wasn't created about that as the discussion, and my take on it, seemed to be about that very subject and this was your view on it. So, I get that now.

On the point about changing titles in the mafia forum, you're right that it can be viewed as a blatent violation of moderator privilages. Of course, I have a defense ready which will probably add to my seeming lack of contrition but unfortunately, staying silent seems to have had no results. Anyways, on that, I posted this on January 30, 2009 in the Future Mafia Game thread:

Quote
Well, allow me to use my new found moderator powers to make an executive decision. I'll allow it.

We must stay true to our funhouse roots.

The mafia games started in the funhouse and the early games played are still in that forum before they were finally moved to their own seperate forum to make it easier for players and those that weren't playing and just posting in threads in the funhouse. Less conflict. So, the Mafia forum is really an offshoot/spin-off of the Funhouse. In the funhouse, as you yourself stated, "With that said, sometimes, mods and admins may tinker with your posts in the Funhouse." Therefore, with the Mafia Forums funhouse roots, tweaking a title or post may not be as egrigious as it sounds. (I could point out that Vudu, a mod at the time, posted right after and didn't contradict that statement but I don't need to reach that much in my arguments.)

There are really no hard rules for moderating the funhouse either but it is generally understood that no moderator should be allowed to go back and change or destroy past games. They are meant to be preserved for those that want to go through them again. The titles that I changed already had the word Free in them. I just added Super to them except for one where I did add both and then said to myself, that's enough. If I wanted, I could have gone crazy and started changing every title in forum from the oldest to the newest ahead of time as no one would probably have noticed but I wanted to keep things contained and reasonable and defendable. My alteration did nothing to alter how a prior game occured for those re-reading it or destroy it and it's history. It was a simple addition that could be fixed with a simple subtraction.

Another factor I would say in that defense is that it isn't a forum that gets much attention from the moderators because it hasn't needed it. In the 4, nearly 5 years, we've had it. There hasn't been any action required for moderator action that myself or a host didn't catch in game and act upon. As such, I'm not sure how much the moderators really care about it. From the way you state it, it seems like the moderators are treating it as seriously as the Talkback forum but that's never been my impression. Again, considering that after all this time, there has yet to be any action taken to restore the titles to their orignal condition thereby further enforcing the belief that it wasn't that major nor was it that disruptive (at least in that forum.) However, I have stated a few times that I would like to do that job but you say I've wounded that trust. Well, let me restore it then and prove to you that there is nothing to fear. You think I'm going to do something to sabotage myself or that forum after having to go through this ordeal? No sir. You don't have to say a word of warning to me. I know I'd have to be cautious of every action I make in there or that's probably it for me for life and I don't want that outcome.

The final thing I will point to is that it is interesting that the forum users who do actually play these games and use that forum have never once complained or been upset with my actions in the forum including these title changes. In fact, a few have stated during this recent mafia game that I should have mod powers with some even stating that I should be re-instated fulltime which I have not asked for or petitioned for. To me, those are the people I was most worried about breaking trust with since they are real users of that forum and the ones who thought it a good idea for me to have full time mod powers there in the first place. They've forgiven, moved on, and not really cared or viewed it as a major incident. Right now, I would say the view is that this seems to be moderators stepping and enforcing an action that no one thinks is necessary in an area of the forums they've never seemed to pay much attention to for an incident most have moved on from.

Again, here's another message I received:

Quote
So did you get your powers back or did someone go ahead and move the threads over for now? Kinda sucks we can't get back to where we once were over silly old shenanigans.

It does and I know part of the fault lies with me. It's also because of that I'm pushing hard to get things restored back to the way things were so that the forum can move on from that incident instead of still encountering roadblocks from it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 02:55:12 PM by Khushrenada »

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 01:54:35 PM »
To keep from having such a huge block of text again, thought I'd divide things up. On the matter of my "non-contrition" and jabs at non-mod status.

When have I ever stated how great the Free Super event was? How many times have I posted what a fun and awesome idea it was? Where are the statements of how pleased the whole thing made me? Show them to me. The only time I was happy with it is when I first planned it up and started mentioning it to people. Then when it happened and went off the rails, I've never once stated anything positive about it. Again, I went back and fixed up all the threads I could after the incident because I was done with it.

When I asked you early on about getting mod powers to fix up the Mafia Forum threads, you stated that probably wouldn't happen for a long time and I accepted it and moved on. I said nothing negative about you or the rulings and for months after, I took the tactic of posting more on the forums and trying to improve the forums by being lighthearted and positive in contrast to a lot of the negativity that was getting posted. I figured I would try a different way to influence change. That's why I was so happy when Silenced wanted to host a mafia game. I'd thought about doing one early to again foster community spirit but didn't want to seem like I was pushing for or trying to make a grab for mod powers and so I didn't bother. Unfortunately, his game fell through due to lack of support.

Finally, I figured I'd try hosting once more to see whether the community was even there to support these games. Plus, I often get a bit more support when I host a game because people generally like my hosting abilities. Sure enough, there was enough support for a game to happen. Then came the daunting task of now asking for mod powers. I didn't want to make it a point of contention. That's why I sent out a couple of pm's and just stated a game was happening and I needed temp mod powers. I didn't state anything about permenant mod powers as I felt that was most likely still off the table and just wanted the past to stay buried and keep things simple and factual.

Of course, those got no response. I wondered if it was still residual effects from earlier in the year. But without an answer, I wasn't 100% sure so I made the feedback hoping that might finally draw out an answer. Still nothing. At this point, I had been trying to keep from making too many threads for the game so there wouldn't be much work to do if it got moved like the Players List thread or the Dead thread and with the game going on and on those threads were becoming needed. Plus, I had seen all the mods I had contacted and been on the board so I knew they were aware of the situation. Thus, I was pretty sure I was being ignored and decided to push back some more. Not the smartest response but again, we're all guilty of rash responses. Finally, it got some attention, I was basically told play it out in the funhouse so I dropped the expectation of the game moving over and just went at.

I realized this raised other questions and asked them in the feedback thread such as what happens going forward for anyone hosting a game but there was still no response. It's only that any answer has been given with you stating the mods are reluctanct to now give temp mod powers to anyone, not just me. Of course, as you state, you are low man on the totem pole so I'm not really sure if that is 100% correct or not but no one else will ever weigh in on it. Personally, I don't like that solution and I think if you asked or polled the other users of this forum, the vast majority would also be opposed to it and prefer we still have games and temp hosts in that forum.

Thus, I've taken on the role of fighting the decision and silence. Again, I was told this in a message:

Quote
So I probably won't say anything in public because I don't feel like it'd do me any good.
.

Other users are afraid to say anything so I guess I'll have to be the one to speak on it and discuss it. And since this stems from the Free Super incident, my arguments have been on that. My logic sees it this way. If I can show the actions taken by me in that event are equivelant to or less than other actions taken by mods, then therefore it can be argued that if they can still have full moderator powers, then I, and then by extension others, should be able to gain temp mod abilities to the Mafia Forum also. Likewise, I've also used the comparison of other incidents by forum users in contrast to my actions as an argument that the current punishments and decisions seem to be unequal and therefore the position on not allowing me or others mod powers should be changed.

Finally, I've also tried to show how the viewpoints of the moderators on other matters contrasts with their stance on this matter. I liked using the Swapnote comparison. However, I just noticed that post was deleted. Makes me wonder how many other posts of my have been deleted without my noticing. But silently deleting posts and not responding to them just emboldens me to think I'm right and you can not refute what I'm saying, so you're just trying to hide and block that fact from other users.

Is it annoying? Is it hyperbolic? Should I give it a rest? Well, yes. It is just that I don't see how silence will help nor do I think any action will ever occur if I don't keep pressing. It may never occur even if I do keep pressing but at least it feels like I'm do something about it. And with the silence given, people view me as in the right and you do nothing to help yourselves or your verdict.

If you think I'm unrepentant or that this is the wrong way to go about things, here's a neat idea. Why not tell me what steps I can take to correctly work towards affecting a change in this decision? What do I have to do show I am sorry that I haven't shown before? Is there anything I even can do with the current uneasiness you state the moderators feel about everything? Is there anything the rest of the forum can do? There doesn't have to be animosity between both parties. There generally hasn't been in the past and there's no reason why there has to be a continually developing rift now.

To sum up, I'll use a mafia game example. In a game, you can trust someone and get burned later by them. What do you do in the next game? You can target them regardless. You can have a vendetta against them as long as you like. That's your choice. But maybe you still chose to work with them. You recognize that their actions last game were last game and leave it in the past. This is a new game now. You might be a bit more hesitant of them, a bit more guarded but that doesn't mean you can't still work with them. Often, at least it is the case for me, the person who burned you may know they pulled a number on you and want to make it up to you next time. I know I've always tried to do that and do my best to make it up in a future game or two and attempt to equal the scales as it were.

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Free Talk: Public Khusheration System?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2013, 02:49:58 PM »
Free Khush!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:53:27 PM by Fatty_The_Hutt »
Oui, Mon Gars!

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2013, 03:18:21 PM »
i wanna know how that argument reached the point of 2 permabans as opposed to 2 10-day bans apiece for them to cool some steam

or why the thread in question wasn't locked the first time
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 03:38:01 PM »
Multiple warnings and extreme personal attacks. And if I'd gone with temp bans they would have been considerably longer than 10 days.

As for why it wasn't locked, before I came back to it the last time I saw it I didn't think it was quite to that point. Also, Crimm talked about locking it but he never did, so I kind of deferred to his judgment until it got out of hand.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2013, 03:58:06 PM »
i have no idea how bad it got (i went to bed after saying my piece, anyone wanna send me screens?) but permabans to non-spambots don't happen very often, I feel like we need more then one incident to justify it even if that one incident were massively horrific in scale

also just out of curiosity would you trust me or kush more with mod powers
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2013, 04:07:40 PM »
I don't think you've been around long enough to be a mod. UncleBob was a regular for years, and far more of a model citizen, before he got the job. Khush fits that mold apart from the whole Free SUPER thing, which I can forgive but the people who hand out mod powers don't seem to.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2013, 04:36:39 PM »
You didn't want a giant wall of text, so you made two giant walls of text? :-)

I'm on my cell and it's the day before all hell breaks loose, so I can't respond to every point you made, but...
Finally, I've also tried to show how the viewpoints of the moderators on other matters contrasts with their stance on this matter. I liked using the Swapnote comparison. However, I just noticed that post was deleted. Makes me wonder how many other posts of my have been deleted without my noticing. But silently deleting posts and not responding to them just emboldens me to think I'm right and you can not refute what I'm saying, so you're just trying to hide and block that fact from other users.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=43069.msg815009#msg815009

Dude - youe Swapnote comparison is still there and there's no record of it every having been deleted.

There's no evil conspiracy against you (so far as I know).  Again, and I can't stress this enough, I'm only speaking for myself... but I didn't respond to the Swapnote comparison becuase it was asinine.  Nintendo killed the service for everyone because of the actions of a few.  That is in no way similar to you losing priviliges as a direct result of your own willful actions.  A more apt comparison would be shutting down the entire forum because of "Free Super".  Which, of course, didn't happen.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2013, 05:15:28 PM »
Quote
You didn't want a giant wall of text, so you made two giant walls of text? :-)

They seemed small when I was typing them at first...... :(

As for not seeing that post, my fault there for sure. I was skimming around trying to find it and I guessed I just glanced right over it. But for some reason, I thought there had been more posted in that thread so when I glanced through and it just seemed to end suddenly with my missing that paragraph, I took the kneejerk reaction that it must have been deleted. Good for me. I clearly could use more sleep.

As for the rebuttal, nice one. Of course, you are taking it from the view of the whole forums and my argument is focused on just the use of the Mafia forum. In that smaller case, the fact that it can not be used for future games would be in line with my point. That said, it's not like my "case" was ever based on that point alone nor have I used it beyond that post so I'm not going to belabour that part anymore.

I don't think you've been around long enough to be a mod. UncleBob was a regular for years, and far more of a model citizen, before he got the job. Khush fits that mold apart from the whole Free SUPER thing, which I can forgive but the people who hand out mod powers don't seem to.

Wish you hadn't said that. I just finished compiling the forums Zelda top 10 list for you and was going to post the results if you are fine with that. But now, people might think I'm trying to suck up to you. You ruined my goodwill mission. Insanolooorrrrddddd!!!!!


Free Khush!

Oh boy. Not even gonna touch that one.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2013, 05:19:13 PM »
I was actually planning to do a feature on the front page with the Zelda thing, so if you wanted to PM that to me it'd be great. Especially since that way the other people wouldn't know whether you did it or not.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2013, 04:02:50 AM »
i wanna know how that argument reached the point of 2 permabans as opposed to 2 10-day bans apiece for them to cool some steam

or why the thread in question wasn't locked the first time

I didn't lock the thread the first time because, although I felt the original article was mostly clickbait, there were some good points to the discussion that was going on before those two started flinging poo at each other.  It's unfair to everyone else to lock down the entire thread because two people can't play nice.  That'd be like Nintendo shutting down Swapnote... ;) ;) ;)

Did you really just post a plan private message? Nice one.

I thought so.  :D  Don't say it if you don't mean it.
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 02:53:23 AM »
I thought so.  :D  Don't say it if you don't mean it.


Nah, I don't care what the message is about, you shouldn't be posting private messages.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 10:16:54 AM »
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 11:47:26 AM »
I do it all the time and no one complains about it. That is because there is an art to it and I understand how to navigate all the nuances attached to it.

For instance, UncleBob sent me this message a few weeks ago:

Quote
Hey,

So I thought I'd send you this in a pm since I wanted to keep it private and didn't think it necessary for the public record. Have you noticed have after a bit of serious discussion, the real talk threads always turn into unreal talk with the topic off the rails and people posting more joke material than actual material? Why is that? I think it might be that people need a release from the tension of the serious talk or to at least signal that everything is still cool between those involved.

I find it an interesting psychological excericise much like the one I have going with Oblivion. As you can probably tell, I'm obviously leading a large conspiracy against him to find all the different possible triggers that could upset him while using this forum. It's been fascinating. Having enjoyed the work you have done in arguing for the Mafia Forum, I've decided I'd like you on the team to help out as you can be rather annoying. Are you interested?

Again, please don't let word of this message get out or it will expose my whole secret organization. I'll send you a list of all the rest involved if you agree.

Thanks,
UncleBob

To which I replied, "Right on! Your secret is safe with me!"

So, you see, no big deal. Which reminds me of another message I got a month ago from Oblivion:

Quote
Hi,

So, I've noticed you've been on the case of the mods lately and so I thought maybe you could help me. I've run out of things to complain about UncleBob at the moment and don't want to re-use any of my previous material. Is there anything you can think of that has happened or he did that I may be able to jump on him about? You seem to be watching all the mods actions pretty closely lately so I thought you might have a tip or two you could give me of some new way I could show how he has wronged me. Love your posting. Keep up the good work!

Regards,
Oblivion

P.S. - Don't let anyone know about this message. I'm keeping it private so that UB and the rest of the forum don't catch on to this diabolical plan of mine. If you reveal it, you'll ruin everything so keep it quiet!

To which I replied, "Right on! Your secret is safe with me!"

So, you see, I'm sure there is a lesson in there somewhere about posting pm's. I had it a moment ago when I started typing this post but now it seems to have eluded me. I just can't think of what it was. Oh well. I'm hoping someone else might see it when reading this post and be able to post it. I know it has something to do with posting private messages not hurting anything and those two messages had something to do with it so the necessary clues are there but I guess it will just be a little forum mystery for now.

Well, this post is long enough. I better get back to my job of keeping covert secret agents identities safe from being exposed to the criminal organizations they infiltrated. Those guys and gals would be so dead if people found out. Especially Markeed Amir who's really Frank Hobson and has been giving us information on an opium ring for 3 years. Brave agent and I plan to get him home alive.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:49:57 AM by Khushrenada »

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2013, 05:28:21 PM »
Oh boy... this is gonna be fun
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »
Private messages shouldn't be private if we can post them publicly. Especially when, like with what Khush did above, they can't be proven to be true.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2013, 05:31:59 PM »
Private messages shouldn't be private if we can post them publicly. Especially when, like with what Khush did above, they can't be proven to be true.
Nah, I don't care what the message is about, you shouldn't be posting private messages.

Wait what...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 05:44:45 PM by pokepal148 »
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 05:44:18 PM »
Private messages shouldn't be private if we can post them publicly. Especially when, like with what Khush did above, they can't be proven to be true.
Nah, I don't care what the message is about, you shouldn't be posting private messages.

Wait what...


Right. Plain and simple: don't fucking post private messages. That's why they're called private messages. If we can post them willy nilly, why don't we just post all PMs publicly in a special board?

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 06:32:46 PM »
Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

For the record, virtually every PM anyone sends me regarding a moderation gets CC'd to a "Senior" mod as well, so that they can be informed should they choose to get involved.  I will continue to do this as well.

It's private messaging, not "Top Secret Messaging".
Just some random guy on the internet who has a different opinion of games than you.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2013, 09:24:02 PM »
If you posted some of the things I've sent out through PM's.....
I think we would both get banned. LOL

But that sounds like a good twist for the "Guess Who Posted This" thread.
now people will have to guess who sent PM's and can't just search for phrases till they find the correct post.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2013, 12:02:25 PM »
i'm just going to leave this here... just for a point of reference
Okay, I didn't see that insano had already took some action, but for those wanting to know, Oblivion has been issued a 15 day temp ban.



He has had a previous warning about using similar words as insults combined with multiple warnings about personal attacks on other users.  The forum quite simply doesn't need this.
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Offline Phil

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2013, 01:18:53 PM »
Aw, man. All of those selfies I privately gave ShyGuy... Those were for his eyes ONLY!  :@
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2013, 03:06:33 PM »
I do think it might be beneficial to mention something about bannings. Maybe even have a banning thread in here which sounds sort of ridiculous but if an incident occurs, a mod could just post who was banned, why and for how long.

Strangely enough, this idea has suddenly started to become a bit relevant from events the past couple weeks. This can only mean I've finally gained the power to see into the future. Those pills I bought off eBay weren't lying after all!

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 02:22:30 PM »
This can only mean I've finally gained the power to see into the future.
If you mean you predicted you would quote yourself in a self-congratulatory way, then nah, we all predicted that  ;)
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2013, 05:13:25 PM »
I gots to say Fatty, that was good. You showed me.

Offline MegaByte

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Re: Real Talk: Public Moderation System?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 12:34:43 AM »
That's why they're called private messages.
Actually, they're called Personal Messages.
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