Author Topic: HAY LETS TALK ABOUT PIRACY IN HERE  (Read 23937 times)

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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #150 on: January 05, 2011, 11:40:58 PM »
IDK, i think Disney has a valid claim when it comes to corporate mascots. Making Mickey Public would really harm the company. On the other hand Trademarks last forever.

The whole superman thing pisses me off though, Simon and Schuster sold off the rights, but thanks to politicing they got it back(sort of). I say you sell it then you can't get it back.

Marvel should get back Spider-Man, unfortunately they signed a crap deal with Sony, and as long as Sony keeps making movies than they get to keep making movies. There should have been totally a time limit on that deal, because with it they can't put Spider-man in the Avengers. Fox has wolverine and x-men. The new xmen sounds like crap, but the new wolverine sounds like its going to be fucking spectacular.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #151 on: January 05, 2011, 11:57:14 PM »
Instead of milking 100 year old characters for eternity, Disney could... oh, I don't know, make something new?
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2011, 12:13:11 AM »
They make new stuff all the time, like Toy Story 1-3, Toy Story Cars Edition, Toy Story with fish...
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2011, 12:31:22 AM »
a company is defined by its characters....thats why Nintendo is in the same position Disney is. Disney makes new stuff all the time, and actually don't push around Mickey too often. Corporations, however are defined legally as people... who live indefinitely, and so anything created by a corporation should get the same rights as a person: The life of a person + 70+ years. If Disney suddenly went out of business than of course Mickey should go public domain.

can you imagine 70 years from now Mario going public domain? That would **** up Nintendo's ****. The law for corporate copy rights should just be intelligent.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2011, 12:42:28 AM »
I don't know much about Japanese copyright laws (they vary by country of coarse, which is why some books are still copyrighted in the US but are public domain in Europe), but Nintendo won't have to worry about Mario going public domain for 90 more years (2101). They do take into account corporations, which is why they are so long already.

Perm, I do agree on Superman. I think it's BS that just because the children of Siegel and Schuster (Simon & Schuster is a book publisher, LOL) are pissed off that they missed out on how big Superman became, they think they should get back various rights to the character despite DC Comics having legally bought the rights to the character. That is why companies try to make sure they own the characters from the beginning now. I fully support DC in their legal fights on this situation.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2011, 01:49:31 AM »
The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry. What customers could be made of pirates are ignored.

No.  If you want to put the blame onto a company for making crappy products that don't sell because they're crappy, then that's A-OKAY with me.

But blaming a company because people don't feel like paying for their crappy products and, instead, want to steal them?  That's BS.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2011, 08:12:50 AM »
The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry. What customers could be made of pirates are ignored.

No.  If you want to put the blame onto a company for making crappy products that don't sell because they're crappy, then that's A-OKAY with me.

But blaming a company because people don't feel like paying for their crappy products and, instead, want to steal them?  That's BS.

By his logic, if someone thought a Hooker's rates were too high does that mean... um, nevermind (it would probably not be appropriate to go there).

But yeah, if you don't like the price then don't buy it. You have no right to steal.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2011, 09:41:28 AM »
I'm not going to sit here and defend piracy (yes it's a crime, and people shouldn't do it), but it is not comparable to rape in any fashion. Yes, developers do lose out on money (assuming that you would have bought the game), but it's not the same as physically stealing something. People who burn games and sell them, or distribute them are the real criminals, but the kid that can't afford to buy games (and never would have bought them to begin with) so he downloads a few, while technically yes is a criminal, really isn't hurting anybody. The whole piracy thing gets blown way out of proportion anyway. At the conference where all of this PS3 stuff was explained, they (creators of the Homebrew Channel) mentioned that as of December they had 1 million unique users - and that's out of 70 million Wiis. So if you go with the argument (which I've seen thrown around here) that around half of the people that hack their systems do it to play copied games, then that's about 500,000 people. I know this isn't scientific, but I would wager that it's better than some "expert" guessing how many people pirate games, but that would equal about 0.7% of Wii users. Sure there are also modchip users too, but that margin is probably a lot smaller than HBC users.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2011, 10:08:45 AM »
But yeah, if you don't like the price then don't buy it. You have no right to steal.

I never said that you have a right to pirate. I said that it is the companies fault that people feel the need to pirate their products in the first place. If these companies made better products and charged what the market would support for them, then they would actually sell. There are always going to be some hardcore pirates, even if the games were only $1, but you can't worry about them because they were never and will never be customers anyway. The companies don't loose any money on people that never intend to buy their product. Instead they should focus on making the best product possible for those that would potentially purchase it. Why is that so hard to understand?

Hardcore pirates are fifteen year-olds that download anything and everything under the sun. They don't have the money to purchase anything to begin with, and certainly could never acquire enough money to actually purchase all of the games they pirate. Furthermore, they never even have the time to play all of the games they pirate. They just collect whatever they can download. Hence, there is no loss. If anything, it might be a form of advertisement in that specific scenario. One day, that kid won't have all of the time in the world to idly sit around and download every game that comes out. One day he'll have a job and a little bit of free cash to actually buy games with. Chances are, he'll remember some of the games he used to play and purchase the inevitable sequels.

Companies need to stop looking at theoretical loss and start focusing on potential gain. Screwing over your paying customers to temporarily stop a few pirates only creates more pirates. That goes for everyone, not just game developers. The music and movie industry are, in some ways, even worse off.

Edit: We can see just how brainwashed everyone is when the replication of ones and zeroes is being compared to violent sexual crimes. I bet the MPAA wish they would have thought of that one instead of their lame "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign!
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2011, 10:24:29 AM »
I was gonna mention that "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign too. I saw this British comedian who was talking about that and said while that's true, if his friend came up and said, "hey, I just bought this awesome new car...do you want me to burn you a copy?" he would probably consider it.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2011, 02:31:40 PM »
Sony responds to the PS3 hack
 
As I completely called, Sony is looking to repond to the hack with new security firmware updates.  Pointless?  Eh, probably.  Sony may not be able to plug the security hole, but who knows what new restrictions this will place on legitimate users like myself?  Thanks, hackers.  I'll make sure to think of you every time I have to sit through another one of the PS3's legendary half-hour firmware updates (and whatever else is caused by them) because you guys couldn't take a hint when Sony removed Linux support due to it being used to hack the console.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2011, 04:30:45 PM »
because you guys couldn't take a hint when Sony removed Linux support due to it being used to hack the console.

Maybe it was Sony who should have taken the hint that something like this would have happened if they pulled a feature that the hacker community cared deeply about.

Anyway, looks like Sony is going to address this by "Network updates", according to what the article says. I think this makes sense, because there is no way they can firmware their way out of this on the console end. The best they can do is possibly lock the hacked consoles out of PSN by scanning through the PS3s and make sure nothing fishy is going on. So I don't think they will be able to stop people from using Linux (or pirating), but it might bring things back to square one where people who do so will be locked out of PSN.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2011, 06:10:05 PM »
Edit: We can see just how brainwashed everyone is when the replication of ones and zeroes is being compared to violent sexual crimes. I bet the MPAA wish they would have thought of that one instead of their lame "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign!

No one is comparing theft of copyrighted material with violent sexual crimes.  What we're comparing is the idiotic idea of blaming the victim of one crime for the crime to blaming the victim of another crime for that crime.

Your a poor kid who can't afford games?  Boo-hoo.  Don't buy them.  But you don't get to steal them either.  And the big ol' mean company that makes the games isn't at fault because you decide to.

Again, if you want to blame the company because their product sucks and doesn't sell worth crap - that's good.  In fact, I encourage it (if the product does, in fact, suck).  But there's a whole world of difference between that and blaming companies for people stealing from them.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2011, 06:52:34 PM »
He's not so much blaming the company as looking at it practically. What does the company really gain by stopping that kid from pirating? He's not going to go out and buy all those games; he doesn't have the money, so there's no way they're getting any from him. Morari's not defending the kid, he's just pointing out that extra DRM isn't going to solve the problem, and will in fact make things worse for people who actually buy games
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2011, 06:59:07 PM »
He's not so much blaming the company as looking at it practically.
Hrm?

The blame does lie on the shoulders of the industry.

Quote
What does the company really gain by stopping that kid from pirating? He's not going to go out and buy all those games; he doesn't have the money, so there's no way they're getting any from him.

You don't *know* that.  You can't say a pirate wouldn't get a legitimate copy of the game if a pirated version was available any more than the industry giants can say that a pirated copy = lost sale.

What you can know is that no pirated copies = no lost sales from piracy.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #165 on: January 06, 2011, 07:29:42 PM »
You don't *know* that.  You can't say a pirate wouldn't get a legitimate copy of the game if a pirated version was available any more than the industry giants can say that a pirated copy = lost sale.

I will concede that point, though I'd argue it's most likely quite a bit closer to the former.

Quote
What you can know is that no pirated copies = no lost sales from piracy.

There are two problems with that. The first is that no matter what the companies do, pirates will find a way around it, so there's no way to make it so there are no pirated copies. The second is that it can end up being a huge inconvenience to legitimate consumers, not to mention all the money and time that went into developing and implementing such measures, and that eats into the benefits of it.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #166 on: January 06, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »
Your a poor kid who can't afford games?  Boo-hoo.  Don't buy them.  But you don't get to steal them either.  And the big ol' mean company that makes the games isn't at fault because you decide to.

You seem pretty hung up on this. Your tone seems to indicate that you take this very personally, and even more disturbingly, relate it directly to theft. Maybe you were robbed as child and never got over it fully? I suppose that prolonged injustice could really warp a person's mind if left unresolved. You should save your videogame-buying money up and hire a therapist instead. :P
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 08:04:01 PM by Morari »
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #167 on: January 06, 2011, 07:59:01 PM »
Unclebob I don't want to **** on you, but I will, because none of this is about theft/stealing except for counterfeiting/fraud which is another matter altogether. If you don't understand that, please stop waving your "It's stealing" stick of moral/legal absoluteness and crying, it's not helpful.

The root of the problem is how the market fundamentally works. There is supply and there is demand. You match them and you get a price where hopefully everyone is happy. However in the event there is infinite supply this breaks down. With infinite supply the price is zero. There are also some physical things that are on a small enough scale are considered infinite, like air and water or fish in the sea. Anyone person can use as much as they want without harm, however given a large enough collective effort to exploit these resources, damage is done and with enough of it you have collapsed fish stocks, air pollution and undrinkable rivers. This is the tragedy of the commons and will happen to anything that is free and or infinite to any given user. This essentially happens to software.

However unlike these commons, any given piece of software is truly infinite. Sure there is the original cost of making it, but to any one given person because it is infinite, it's price can be anywhere between zero and total cost of development if only one person buys it. If you had prefect knowledge(never, ever happens) you could set a price where a majority of people would buy the product at a maximum profit, however there will always be people who will always pay zero or near zero for a whatever reason and there is no point bitching about it because this will always happen, but on the flipside there is always people who will always pay because they can both afford and appreciate this intangible good. The most important thing is that the price is set correctly and enough people feel they made a good deal so that one can cover their initial cost and make a profit.

So like the commons, you set an appropriate "price" like fishing quotas(Initial costs) and convince people to pay for the convenience of the fish at the fish mart(retail) for a reasonable price. There will always be people who go to the beach and fish/gather shellfish, but as long as this not too many people take too much, everybody wins. In fact once the initial costs have been covered, anything beyond that can be considered a bonus or reinvested back into more fish/bigger boat/games.

What people do with said fish/air/water is their own business, but this is the basis of why piracy exists and no matter how draconian the DRM or laws becomes will continue to do so. People don't like getting beaten whether it's once, or day after day, and more often than not grow more defiant short of crushing the human spirit or placing someone in an invisible prison ala North Korea or Stalinism or RIAA(via asinine lawsuits). While they make for short term gains, they make for long term disasters time and time again, so why not try something else where everyone wins? Answer : Because people tend not to care how much another person gains along they gain more even if everybody including themselves gain less aka game theory.

Until this is made apparent to publishers and devs will always bitch about potential unrealised gains as actual losses when if fact it is just economics is action and something to be adapted to, not something to be remade at will.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #168 on: January 06, 2011, 08:09:37 PM »
You ever get that surreal feeling where there's Person A who doesn't seem right in the head, but you don't want to say anything because to do so would be really rude and inappropriate, but then to your shock and amazement this Person A goes up to a random normal and sane Person B and says that to them?

For some reason I'm sorta getting that kind of feeling right about now.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #169 on: January 06, 2011, 08:30:31 PM »
Normal is a function of statistics and insanity could be defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, in which case we are all insane or insanity is momentary and is based on perspective.

Scared yet?
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #170 on: January 06, 2011, 09:01:12 PM »
on the flipside there is always people who will always pay because they can both afford and appreciate this intangible good. The most important thing is that the price is set correctly and enough people feel they made a good deal so that one can cover their initial cost and make a profit.

If I decide there's an infinite supply, that the price isn't set correctly and that I can't afford/appreciate it, I can take it?

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Offline Arbok

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #171 on: January 06, 2011, 09:03:39 PM »
You seem pretty hung up on this. Your tone seems to indicate that you take this very personally, and even more disturbingly, relate it directly to theft. Maybe you were robbed as child and never got over it fully? I suppose that prolonged injustice could really warp a person's mind if left unresolved. You should save your videogame-buying money up and hire a therapist instead. :P:

Well that response seemed totally uncalled for...
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #172 on: January 06, 2011, 09:41:01 PM »
ZAP, If you read my post in it's entirety, you wouldn't be asking that question.

Look back when World of Goo was offered to people for any price they wanted to pay, or the Humble Bundle. Yes, some people paid zero dollars or $0.01 which is near zero as ou can get with money. Yet so many more people paid for it even if they could take it. Supply was infinite. But enough people paid for it, the game devs did not implode from lack of funds. Everybody is happy and they didn't need DRM to do it.

By doing so they let the market set it's own price which should be zero because there is infinite supply, but this didn't happen. Others, include myself felt this was worth paying something for.

There are other games and pieces of software that are offered for free. No strings. They have infinite supply. Yet there have been times I have offered resources to them, in the case of Freespace 2, it was my time to help them crush a bug or two. Admittedly I helped them so I could play a particular mod in it's entirety, but the community gained. I "Paid" for it.

So stick that bottle that guy has in his back pocket into somewhere unpleasant, because he has nothing to do with this.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #173 on: January 06, 2011, 10:03:42 PM »
Sony's "we'll fix this with network updates" is pure bullshit, and they just said that to look good for investors. They can't fix it without breaking it. Also, no one has been able to use this for piracy (yet), and OtherOS was not used to achieve this hack, so the argument against Linux is still bullshit.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #174 on: January 07, 2011, 01:54:14 AM »
I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING WHY I WOULD WANT THIS OVER THE PIRATED VERSION...