Topic: Controlling Shooters on Revolution. A Thesis

[RABicle]

Ok. It all came to me in a rush and I told the pietriots but OH NO MSN DIED AND DECIDED TO STOP SENDING MESSAGES! But now that i've punched MSN i've been able to think this through more and write it up.

OK so here it is.

Revolution's controller is going to revolutionise first person shooters more than we initially think. The genre has been dying all over again, having to resort to horror themes and generally making everything bigger and longer to improve itself. When people get excited over the ability to hold two different pistols at the same time you know we're heading towards a brick wall.

Everyone's already thought about simply aiming with the controller by tilting, as we would a mouse or second analogue stick. I propose however that with the revolution controller FPS games can move beyond that, beyond even what light guns offer, and offer true realism in handling firearms as done in real life. I'm talking blind shooting, shooting around corners, behind ourselves, over objects.

So far. Most people have accepted the obvious idea, to simply map the motion sensor as you would a mouse or right thumbstick. To look up and down and turn left or right. To aim. You gun remains shooting towards the middle of the screen.

I believe this to be a flawed approach. If you consider turning in the keyboard/mouse setup. You move the mouse towards the desired direction then lift it off the surface and back to your central position. If you do not do this and move back to centre, your character does the same, facing the original direction. When you apply this to a motion sensor, should the motion sensor be on at all time, we have no way to 'cancel' our movements as we can a mouse by lifting it. Therefore when we turn around a corner in a game we would have to hold the controller or our whole arm at 90° until we face our initial direction again. I dread to think of the difficulties we'de face holding our controller backwards, pointing away from the screen, should we ever need to backtrack. Because of this I suggest my own scheme.

My control scheme is as follows.
Detachable Thumbstick: Move forward and back and turn left or right. *

Motion sensor.
Moving the 'remote' left and right across a horizontal plane to reach left or right.
Tilting the 'remote' up down, twists left and right to aim.
Moving the 'remote' up and down to raise and lower your gun.

Crosspad: Left and right: to strafe. Up and down to look up or down*

Under my scheme, we wield the controller as we would a real firearm. My approach  intergrates the precision aiming of lightgun games and the player controlled movement of traditional first person shooters. But it takes it up another notch.

Imagine a situation we're you're taking cover behind a wall. Around the corner to your left, enemies are opening fire, awaiting for you to appear. In a traditional FPS you would have to move out into the open and take out the gunmen while standing in the way of their gunfire. But now, with revolution, you could just edge up with your back pressed against the wall. Then at the corner. Reach around, moving the controller around your shoulder, and just firing. In person you would be holding the controller behind you, pressing the B trigger. In the game your character would we shooting blindly into the room, with only their arm exposed. Maybe you might be lucky, but if not you can still just swing around and run in firing at enemies as you would a light game game.

But there's much more you could do. Taking cover behind a crate you could raise your arm to shoot over the top, or failing that, lob a grenade, simulating a throwing action with your arm, pressing the trigger to release the explosive. In multiplayer while running past an open doorway you could fire into it, just incase you hit someone, while not breaking stride or changing direction.

In case you just skipped all this or didn't understand. To put it simply, in shooters, you should use the motion sensor to replicate the movements of the characters arm. Use the crosspad and thumbstick to take care of his feet and head.

*I say this because I'm used to the "Goldeneye" setup. For those who want to strafe with the thumbstick or walk with the cosspad it really doesn't matter, they could map it like that. I just find speed and precision in turning to be more important than strafeing.

[KDR_11k]

That was one of the first things I thought of when we started discussing gyros, a few hours ago I was puzzled how movement could be implemented to allow for both strafing and turning because I wasn't sure whether you could reach the dpad on the rod when you're holding it like a gun. Would be even more fun with two rods and two guns so you can pull off some nasty stunts if you're good.

Since you control the gun directly the game could handle melee weapons with exactly the same control scheme, just that you'd be bashing in heads with the rod (guns could be abused as clubs as well).

That could turn into a fun movie-realism shooter, perhaps even with VFX powers. Slow mo so you can aim your shots better, "focus", where the camera tracks the bullet on its way to the enemy (Max Payne sniper rifle, for example) to deal a lot of damage and "dodge" which makes enemies shoot around you (you know, like in those hollywood action movies where the hero dashes through a hail of fire without being hit).

[Spak-Spang]

You have created an absolutely great control scheme.

I would also suggest that the A button could be pressed to select weapons you want to use or Items.

Double Tap A and Hold to select items then point and select your item.
Tap and Hold A to select weapons and Point and select your Weapon.

You still have 2 buttons on the analog Stick that are unused.  You could use one for ducking and one for jumping.

[Ian Sane]

"When people get excited over the ability to hold two different pistols at the same time you know we're heading towards a brick wall."

I think that was more to do with consumer ignorance.  Anyone with any serious interest in gaming knows that Goldeneye was doing that years before Halo 2 and several PC games have done it as well.

This idea is fantastic.  It's the sort of idea that gets me interested in the remote controller.  It makes no sense to have aiming and looking be controlled the same way.  Plus I find mouse looking to be really disorienting.  Too many times I accidently flick the mouse a little too hard and make myself dizzy.  This is much more natural.  It would add a whole new element of strategy.  Simple stuff like running away while shooting wildly behind you would add a lot to the experience.  If Nintendo has something like this cooking up then they've got a killer app.

The only issue is using two guns at once.  I guess you could use two remotes but using the analog stick for moving would allow you to walk at different speeds a lot better than the d-pad would.

[RABicle]

Sure would be a killer app. No amount of 7.1 sound or 1080p displays would save Halo 3 from looking like an ancient, boring and last gen shooter.

I figure whatever game they incorperate this into should just not be designed with holding two guns at once in mind. I doubt people would even notice.

As for the rest of the controls, it's hard to say. Once again it feels like there's just a few buttons too few on Rev. I figure A would be the all purpose action button. You know, reloading, opening doors, punching gobs, switches etc.
We still need to crouch, change weapons and maybe jump. Perhaps holding A brings up a Turok styles weapons menu and you scroll through with the joystick? Z1 and Z2 can be for ducking and jumping?

It really depends on the game.  

[KDR_11k]

Reloading and weapon switching could be mapped to the X/Y buttons. After all, reloading or changing weapons isn't just a flick of the wrist in real life, either.

[Ian Sane]

"No amount of 7.1 sound or 1080p displays would save Halo 3 from looking like an ancient, boring and last gen shooter."

No, but better marketing would.

"I figure whatever game they incorperate this into should just not be designed with holding two guns at once in mind. I doubt people would even notice."

That would be pretty minor.  Plus then they can save it for the sequel.  Now I'm thinking like a boardroom executive.

[Switchblade Cross]

Yes yes!  I had a very similar idea to this not to long after the controller was shown.  

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Reloading and weapon switching could be mapped to the X/Y buttons. After all, reloading or changing weapons isn't just a flick of the wrist in real life, either.

YES!  Imagine that a virtual arm and hand would mimic your real moves exactly.  Imagine lifting your arm so the gun is pointing upward ni the game, and then sticking out your left index finger and tapping X and then watching the clip fall from the gun.  Simple things like that would make this game extrememly immersive.  I can see  whole lot of genres being moved to a first person view.  People rant about how awsome it would be to swing your sword with Link in a Zelda game.  But really, it could be akward watching the action in 3rd person.  A 1st person zelda game, or one the switches from 3rd to 1st when swordplay begins, would make much more sence.  Same thing goes for a fising game, or tennis.  Many genres would benifit from going 1st person.  In the end, we would be one step closer to virtual reality.  Perhaps after this controll is standard and advanced further, like current controllers, in 20 years we'll be ready for the next revolution, and conincidently, LCD VR headsets will be very cheap...

[Spak-Spang]

KDR:  You bring up a great point about reloading taking time and isn't instant.  It makes me want to revise my idea with the A button.

X could be used to reload, and you can still use the double tap menu system for selecting new weapons and items.

After all...you don't just quickly pull an item or weapon out of your pocket...it takes time, and that time can be quickened by skill of reloading or skill of weapon selection...it adds a whole new element and strategy.

Now you have A button for Melee attacks--which would also require time to pull off, which works for a more realistic experience and B for primary attack.

You would still have 2 buttons on the analog stick to use for something.



Also, people asking for dual weapons, you can still do dual weapons in the game...you just are going to be limited to aiming one direction at a time, which I think is fine.  Most of the time that is all you really need to do anyway.

This level of accuracy would match lightgun games, and could make you have to aim very precise shots at Boss battles to damage the enemy.  

[Artimus]

Quote
Originally posted by: RABicle
You move the mouse towards the desired direction then lift it off the surface and back to your central position. If you do not do this and move back to centre, your character does the same, facing the original direction. When you apply this to a motion sensor, should the motion sensor be on at all time, we have no way to 'cancel' our movements as we can a mouse by lifting it. Therefore when we turn around a corner in a game we would have to hold the controller or our whole arm at 90° until we face our initial direction again. I dread to think of the difficulties we'de face holding our controller backwards, pointing away from the screen, should we ever need to backtrack.

First of all, who actually picks a mouse up? I'm terribly confused by all this talk of "moving your arm" when using a mouse. Proper use of the mouse requires only wrist movement. But anyway, there's one reason you don't need this scheme:

Tilting. To turn left or right you just need to tilt. Up, down, left and right would be used as a lightgun. You point where you want to shoot. Moving forward and strafing would be the analog stick. To turn left or right you simply tilt. The longer you tilt the further you turn. The faster you tilt the fast you turn. This is why tilting is the huge advantage of the revolution.

Lift your arm above your head and such is, I'm sad to say it, going to prove Ian right. That'll be exhausting and annoying.

Tilt is the answer for FPS. Though I do like the idea you have in that being able to do those things would be wicked, and incorporating them would be very good too, and truly next gen.

[Hostile Creation]

Good points all around, and I'll contribute more later, but for now I just want to comment on dual weapon usage.
You could have dual weapons in the sense that Goldeneye or Halo 2 did, in that you aim both the guns in one direction.
Ian's suggestion could work, but it's not quite as intuitive.
But it could work very well for a game that worked along the lines of Killer 7.  Each remote could control a separate gun, and you wouldn't have to worry about movement.  That would be very cool, I'd like to see another Killer 7 esque game on this system.
It'd have to be single player, though, because that many remotes wouldn't work at once with four players.

[Ian Sane]

"I'm terribly confused by all this talk of "moving your arm" when using a mouse. Proper use of the mouse requires only wrist movement."

Don't take things so damn literally.  I mean moving the mouse suddenly and getting disoriented.

"To turn left or right you just need to tilt."

I don't like it.  In the original idea it's like the remote is your gun.  Once you start moving the remote for purposes other than aiming it's less natural.  When you tilt the remote and you're aiming where you can see the character's hand should tilt like he's holding the gun sideways.

Plus imagine your want to reach out to the side and shoot.  If tilting moved the character you would have to hold the remote level as you moved it.  Grab a TV remote and pretend to be shooting things with it.  I'll bet you you tilt the controller while you're doing it without trying to.

[Hostile Creation]

I definitely agree with Ian there.  The gun should act as the barrel of your weapon in a FPS game.  While there are other options that it provides, many of them defeat the purpose of the system, since they make it less intuitive.

[zakkiel]

I had a more basic version earlier...

Quote
FPS solution: Just moving the wand will aim your gun [without moving the view]. Moving the wand while holding A will rotate the avatar. When rotating, the crosshairs would automatically center on the screen. Solves the problem of being able to turn around while still intuitively allowing you to point the wand at things on screen and shoot them.

Throw in the ability to displace your gun by displacing the controller, and you have the full funcitonality of your scheme, plus the ability to actually change weapons, which is a bonus.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Where's my Nintendo-NINJA (REAL ULTIMATE POWER) game with motion sensing nunchaku?

NINJAS FIGHT ALL THE TIME.
WHEN THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING, THEY'RE FLYING.

~~~~~

Brilliant stuff, RAB.

[ThePerm]

hmm..thats exactly how i imagined the controls from the start...although  i did think up a  one handed version

[Spak-Spang]

Actually I would love an On-rails shooters that uses dual wands for aiming and shooting.

You could either have the game be 4-player, or 2-player with dual shooting.  The D-Pad could be used for dodging and ducking.

What a fun game that could be...and you could even design it for several people to play online, like a massive 16 player game, linked to 4 systems.  Levels could be designed with 4 different paths each that intersect and intermingle.  

Hmmm...

The more I think about that the more wonderful it sounds.

[ThePerm]

imagine a shooter that switches to rails occasionally?

[Dirk Temporo]

I was thinking about this. I thought I was the only one who thought it was a good idea.

[RABicle]

Quote
Now you have A button for Melee attacks--which would also require time to pull off, which works for a more realistic experience and B for primary attack.

Actually I prefer the method suggested by KDR. That being just swinging your arm around, clubbing them with your gun.

A button reload/open doors/hit switches etc.

X and Y cycle through weapons.

Quote
Tilting. To turn left or right you just need to tilt. Up, down, left and right would be used as a lightgun. You point where you want to shoot. Moving forward and strafing would be the analog stick. To turn left or right you simply tilt. The longer you tilt the further you turn. The faster you tilt the fast you turn. This is why tilting is the huge advantage of the revolution.

I think you've missed the point Artimus. I suggest that each directional control on the gamepad (thumbstick, crosspad and motion sensor) control parts of the human body (legs, head and arm) independantly. Under your system, as we go to aim, we're liekly to also tilt the controller, moving our character around as we try to aim.

[mantidor]

Im excited by the simple fact that we can now actually shoot around corners without having to strafe or anything similar, just mimicking what we wouldve do in real life. Some people are complaining about the lack of buttons, but if the NRC is as precise as the teaser suggested, all well need is the analog and the B button along with the remote itself.

[ThePerm]

you know  what is crazy..i want to play  with t his  setup sooo bad!!! I'm  thinking about buying some wheel mouse and  modifying it so it works like a  gyro

[RABicle]

Hey and I was jsut thinking. For otehr gameplay elements. Say your surrounded by civilians or in a city or something. You could hold the controller to your chest of your leg, to simulate lowering/hiding/holstering your weapon.

Shoot up in the air and watch everyone hit the ground. Women screaming.

[KDR_11k]

Perhaps one attachment for the controller will be a "pass through" connection that links a second rod to it and allows you to use two rods on one controller slot. Perhaps with a different kind of rod to link to it, it wouldn't need the power, home, start or select buttons and could add a few different control elements like an analog stick and two triggers.

[Dasmos]

I am liking this idea, I had a similar one when I saw the mock-up picture with the NRC with the handel of a gun. I couldn't really have put it into words as simply and easily explanable as you did though. I would of gone of at different tangents talking about magical cats and uber-donkeys and what not. Well done...