Topic: Nintendo will be aggressively targeting indy developers for wiiware and dsiware

[Flames_of_chaos]

Source

Nintendo wants more indie games -- not only on Wii, but on the upcoming DSi hardware.

That's the message that Tom Prata, the gamemaker's senior director of project development, sent to an audience of game developers and executives as the DICE summit drew to a close on Friday. While Prata acknowledged that Nintendo's move into indie game distribution was not without its hitches, he sought to assure the crowd that Nintendo was committed to fixing those issues.

Reach is a problem, he began: Not all Wii owners are connected online, which is a requirement if one wants to sell them a downloadable game. Prata said that Nintendo is "working to increase the connection rate."

Storage is a constant issue -- the Wii only has a small amount of onboard storage for games. Prata did not reveal Nintendo's solution, but only pointed out that the company president Satoru Iwata had, speaking in Tokyo last month, announced that a better storage solution is forthcoming.

Finally, Prata said that Nintendo is still attempting to work out better ways of promoting WiiWare games. As one example of new tactics the company is using, it will partner with GameTrailers to let users submit their own videos of World of Goo playthroughs for an upcoming contest.

With downloadable content, Prata said, "making it and forgetting it" doesn't fly -- "you have to create the content, and then you have to raise it up," he said. "I think that there's more that Nintendo can do to support (WiiWare games). This year, Nintendo will increase resources for development and promotion."

Prata concluded by discussing the upcoming launch of the DSiWare download store, which he said would go live when the Nintendo DSi hardware is released in the U.S. on April 5. While he did not say which games Nintendo would release in the U.S., he showed a lengthy video demonstration prepared by Nintendo developer Yoshiaki Koizumi especially for the event, in which the Super Mario Galaxy director explained Moving Memo Book, a DSiWare title that lets users draw their own animations on the DS and share them online.

[Ian Sane]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

I honestly think anything else will accomplish nothing at all.

[BeautifulShy]

Ian have you purchased any WW games?

[NWR_pap64]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

I honestly think anything else will accomplish nothing at all.

If there wasn't any form of this information this would be understandable. But considering we have a lot of sites that cover WiiWare games, forums that discuss said games, videos through the Nintendo Channel and even developer blogs and websites this is silly to say the least.

No one knew much about "World of Goo" until info was released, then when the actual game hit WiiWare sites praised it and it became the most downloaded game on the service. So clearly, people know about these games through various sources.

The one thing I believe Nintendo, as well as Microsoft and Sony, should do is advertise their downloadable games and points on TV. Points are the videogame equivalent of gift cards; if you give a gamer a card he or she will find plenty of options, from classic games to dowloadable content. If they would advertise this more they would get more business for the Wii Shop channel.

[GoldenPhoenix]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

I honestly think anything else will accomplish nothing at all.

If there wasn't any form of this information this would be understandable. But considering we have a lot of sites that cover WiiWare games, forums that discuss said games, videos through the Nintendo Channel and even developer blogs and websites this is silly to say the least.

No one knew much about "World of Goo" until info was released, then when the actual game hit WiiWare sites praised it and it became the most downloaded game on the service. So clearly, people know about these games through various sources.

The one thing I believe Nintendo, as well as Microsoft and Sony, should do is advertise their downloadable games and points on TV. Points are the videogame equivalent of gift cards; if you give a gamer a card he or she will find plenty of options, from classic games to dowloadable content. If they would advertise this more they would get more business for the Wii Shop channel.

I hope Jungle Speed sells well, I can see how a demo would have helped that. It is an extremely addicting and unique card game that has high production values (For a Wiiware game) and is really polished with smart use of the Wii Remote.

[King of Twitch]

I didn't know aggressive was in Nintendo's vocabulary

[Peachylala]

It isn't... except for developing games. =)

[Kairon]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

I honestly think anything else will accomplish nothing at all.

I can't recall where but I remember seeing a study that suggested that demo availability actually DECREASED purchases. The best results came from trailers and videos, but not actual demos if I remember correctly.

[Flames_of_chaos]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

I honestly think anything else will accomplish nothing at all.

I can't recall where but I remember seeing a study that suggested that demo availability actually DECREASED purchases. The best results came from trailers and videos, but not actual demos if I remember correctly.

That's true because a lot of demos on PSN and Xbox live are notoriously bad. I hated the demo to Uncharted:Drake's Fortune but loved the final game (the demo made me wait till a 40 dollar sale), Banjo-Kazooie N&B demo made me stay the hell away from the final game and Mr. Jack told me the final game is a lot better, the demo places you in a bad place with a bad vehicle. The RE5 demo made me dislike the game and if I were to pick up the game it would be during when I can find it for 20 - 40 dollars.

Trailers and videos make people excited for a game which can cause a greater chance for a purchase or impulse buy which is what publishers look for. And personally I hate demos because just look at the last paragraph.

[KDR_11k]

WiiWare needs demos.  Simple as that.  Don't know it, can't try it, won't buy it.

Disagree. I've seen studies that say indie games sell better without demos. Maybe that's because indie games are often so simple that you can either get enough of the experience from the demo or the demo is so insultingly short (see XBLA) that it turns potential buyers away. Yeah, okay, quality may also have a part in this but higher quality games do sell more anyway.

Ian have you purchased any WW games?

If he doesn't get Onslaught when it comes out over there I'm going to slap him.

[BranDonk Kong]

I would have never gotten Dead Rising without playing the demo, or PGR3, or Condemned, or many other games. Demos work. Onslaught could be an awesome game, but I'm not going to throw $10 at it unless I can try it first, same with just about any other WiiWare game. If you don't get a demo, then you basically have to go on reviews (after deciding if it looks like something you want, you don't just look at 9+ rated games and say "here's my money!"), and we all know where that will get you.

[vudu]

Ian have you purchased any WW games?

Ian doesn't purchase games.  Playing them would eat into his complaining about them time.

[KDR_11k]

I would have never gotten Dead Rising without playing the demo, or PGR3, or Condemned, or many other games. Demos work. Onslaught could be an awesome game, but I'm not going to throw $10 at it unless I can try it first, same with just about any other WiiWare game. If you don't get a demo, then you basically have to go on reviews (after deciding if it looks like something you want, you don't just look at 9+ rated games and say "here's my money!"), and we all know where that will get you.

Interesting, so far I haven't bought any games on XBLA (or even retail) because of their demo, usually the demo was a negative for me (e.g. most of the arcade remakes, BC Rearmed, etc were so insultingly short they turned me away from the full game even if it's just an issue with the demo) and the ones I did buy I double checked with reviews or the general oppinion (you don't need specific reviews to hear that everybody loves Castle Crashers, Braid or SotN). All the demos on XBLA showed me is that the concept of a demo went downhill badly from back when I played them on the PC. Back then you could get at least a few levels, sometimes an entire third of the game for free so you'd get an actual impression, not this kind of nonsense where you don't even get to finish one match.

Anyway, that's enough ranting, while the lack of demos makes buying riskier it also prevents a nonsensical way of turning customers away.

[Dirk Temporo]

If they want more indie games, then they should raise the stupidly low size limit for games.

[Stratos]

If they want more indie games, then they should raise the stupidly low size limit for games.

I'm willing to bet that once the 'Sacred Storage Solution' is implemented they will up the restriction. The same thing happened with the 360 as MS released larger HDDs.

[KDR_11k]

Isn't MS's limit still at around 150MB while demos can easily hit 2GB?

[Stratos]

Isn't MS's limit still at around 150MB while demos can easily hit 2GB?

I'm pretty sure XBLA limits are over 300MB but I could be wrong. I'll check it real fast and get back to you. Either way thats way more than WW devs are gettin'.

EDIT:
It's 350MB
http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/05/xbox-live-arcad.html

[NWR_pap64]

Demos also affect initial previews of certain games. For example, remember when the NWR kept bitching about Twilight Princess because of the unfinished demo? Even they claim that the demo is based on a work in progress version if its sour it can scare potential consumers away.

[Stratos]

Demos also affect initial previews of certain games. For example, remember when the NWR kept bitching about Twilight Princess because of the unfinished demo? Even they claim that the demo is based on a work in progress version if its sour it can scare potential consumers away.

The demo pushed me away from Star Wars Empire @ War. It was so plain and barren.

[Ian Sane]

I can't think of any game where the demo turned me off of a good game.  I've played demos where I thought "this sucks" and then the released game gets crapped on in reviews but I have never missed out on a great game because I didn't like the demo.  But I have bought some games on the strength of a good demo and it turned out the gameplay wasn't so enjoyable when stretched out to a full game.  So that's a plus for the developers.

There is NO WAY to try out any Wii Ware games.  I can't rent the game.  I can't play it at a kiosk in a store.  I have to buy the game entirely based on reviews and that's a risk and unlike other games I can't get some return on investment from trading in a game I didn't like.  And that is going to make me more picky.  If a game doesn't get in the 90% range and I have to buy it or I can't try it at all then I'm not going to take the risk.

A demo is no different than a marketing campaign.  A shitty ad can hurt a game's sales just like a shitty demo can.  But no one is suggesting not advertising a game because of that.  If your demo sucks then maybe your game sucks and deserves to not sell.  Or you're a fucking moron for making a shitty demo and, again, deserve your weak sales.  You should have enough faith in your product that a demo will encourage me to buy it.

Saying that demos hurt game sales sounds like the sort of stupid bullshit Nintendo themselves spout out because they don't want to release demos and have to make up some justification other than "Sony did it first and we don't want to admit they had a good idea."  Have you ever heard anyone that actually releases demos through normal channels on a regular basis complain that they hurt sales?  You think after all these years demos would still EXIST if that was the case?

[Flames_of_chaos]

I can't think of any game where the demo turned me off of a good game.  I've played demos where I thought "this sucks" and then the released game gets crapped on in reviews but I have never missed out on a great game because I didn't like the demo.  But I have bought some games on the strength of a good demo and it turned out the gameplay wasn't so enjoyable when stretched out to a full game.  So that's a plus for the developers.

There is NO WAY to try out any Wii Ware games.  I can't rent the game.  I can't play it at a kiosk in a store.  I have to buy the game entirely based on reviews and that's a risk and unlike other games I can't get some return on investment from trading in a game I didn't like.  And that is going to make me more picky.  If a game doesn't get in the 90% range and I have to buy it or I can't try it at all then I'm not going to take the risk.

A demo is no different than a marketing campaign.  A shitty ad can hurt a game's sales just like a shitty demo can.  But no one is suggesting not advertising a game because of that.  If your demo sucks then maybe your game sucks and deserves to not sell.  Or you're a fucking moron for making a shitty demo and, again, deserve your weak sales.  You should have enough faith in your product that a demo will encourage me to buy it.

Saying that demos hurt game sales sounds like the sort of stupid bullshit Nintendo themselves spout out because they don't want to release demos and have to make up some justification other than "Sony did it first and we don't want to admit they had a good idea."  Have you ever heard anyone that actually releases demos through normal channels on a regular basis complain that they hurt sales?  You think after all these years demos would still EXIST if that was the case?

Ian if you had a PS3 or 360 you will see how bad most of the demos are after playing though a bunch of them. The worst demo in recent memory was Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, if you want to know why ask Mr. Jack or whoever bought the game and played the demo.

[Stratos]

I can't think of any game where the demo turned me off of a good game.  I've played demos where I thought "this sucks" and then the released game gets crapped on in reviews but I have never missed out on a great game because I didn't like the demo.  But I have bought some games on the strength of a good demo and it turned out the gameplay wasn't so enjoyable when stretched out to a full game.  So that's a plus for the developers.

There is NO WAY to try out any Wii Ware games.  I can't rent the game.  I can't play it at a kiosk in a store.  I have to buy the game entirely based on reviews and that's a risk and unlike other games I can't get some return on investment from trading in a game I didn't like.  And that is going to make me more picky.  If a game doesn't get in the 90% range and I have to buy it or I can't try it at all then I'm not going to take the risk.

A demo is no different than a marketing campaign.  A ****ty ad can hurt a game's sales just like a ****ty demo can.  But no one is suggesting not advertising a game because of that.  If your demo sucks then maybe your game sucks and deserves to not sell.  Or you're a ****ing moron for making a ****ty demo and, again, deserve your weak sales.  You should have enough faith in your product that a demo will encourage me to buy it.

Saying that demos hurt game sales sounds like the sort of stupid bull**** Nintendo themselves spout out because they don't want to release demos and have to make up some justification other than "Sony did it first and we don't want to admit they had a good idea."  Have you ever heard anyone that actually releases demos through normal channels on a regular basis complain that they hurt sales?  You think after all these years demos would still EXIST if that was the case?

Ian if you had a PS3 or 360 you will see how bad most of the demos are after playing though a bunch of them. The worst demo in recent memory was Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, if you want to know why ask Mr. Jack or whoever bought the game and played the demo.

Also Dennis Dyack of Silicone Knights fame implored people to try the Too Human demo and claimed that would sell people on it. Many of us know how that game turned out. I don't think 580k units (according to VG Chartz) makes up for that long of a development cycle.

[Kairon]

Ian if you had a PS3 or 360 you will see how bad most of the demos are after playing though a bunch of them. The worst demo in recent memory was Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, if you want to know why ask Mr. Jack or whoever bought the game and played the demo.

Is that true that the Banjo Kazooie demo sucked? Wow. That's sad... though it does shed some light on why the game was an absolutely horrible failure in the marketplace.

[Stratos]

Ian if you had a PS3 or 360 you will see how bad most of the demos are after playing though a bunch of them. The worst demo in recent memory was Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts, if you want to know why ask Mr. Jack or whoever bought the game and played the demo.

Is that true that the Banjo Kazooie demo sucked? Wow. That's sad... though it does shed some light on why the game was an absolutely horrible failure in the marketplace.

I would imagine the Nuts and Bolts difference might have been similar to people's issues with Mario Sunshine's FLUDD system. People just don't like it and hate to see really different changes in certain games. That probably had something to do with the games struggles commercially.

Plus how many of Rare's old IP's have worked well on XBox? Of Conker, Banjo and Perfect Dark, how many have worked well? I think a lot of their old, quality IP's need to be treated like new IP's because most XBox owners may not be familiar with them. They may also just not appeal to typical 360 gamers.

[KDR_11k]

Ian, a 90% rating for a game designed for a 40MB, 10$ release is almost impossible, they usually get rating penalties just for the limitations of their medium (unless they're pretty much flash games which you wouldn't want beccause they're flash games). Look at the ratings DS games get, the averages there are way lower than on other platforms despite the DS being the undisputable king of gaming these days. Ratings go up and down based on "production values" which often mean jack **** for the player. Besides, you'd probably be much happier if you were more lenient towards lower scores at lower prices, with WiiWare games it doesn't cost much more to buy them than it'd cost to rent a game for two days.

As for comparing demos to marketing, the data doesn't support that. Maybe it's because demos suffer by default because they have to deal with an inexperienced player who still needs to be introduced to the game's basic mechanics (though teaching stuff like "press right to go right" is plain insulting) and has no training so the difficulty must be low but in the same vein the player will extrapolate from the demo to the full game and if the demo is easy he'll think the full version is easy too.

Additionally you have to make cuts somewhere to make sure the demo is no substitute for the full version but many downloadable games are fairly simple and the cuts would have to be deep to make the demo to full version step significant. XBLA has many demos that cut out before you even understand what's going on. A Kingdom For Keflings ends somewhere in the tutorial, most of the arcade remakes have a time limit of 10-20 seconds playtime (no exaggeration!) and even the ones that include actual levels often spend at least half the total playtime on the tutorial.

I can't even think of a meaningful way to cut Onslaught to give the player an impression of what the game is like without including a huge chunk of the game (especially since the game only gets difficult after the first boss which is a third of the way into the singleplayer campaign) and even then online would have to be excluded.