Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Evan_B on February 08, 2015, 06:30:05 AM
Title: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 08, 2015, 06:30:05 AM
So I hate to discuss the next Nintendo console as much as the next guy, however I was reading a "handheld mockup" thread and came across an interesting picture and idea for a console called the uDS. It was a handheld that had similar ergonomics as the 3DS with the addition of a second circle pad. However, the top screen was detachable and could continue to stream gameplay with the bottom half of the clamshell operating as a controller. The kick was an iHome like home console that could connect to a tv or also operate as a sound amplifier/hard drive/disc drive for the console, retaining backwards compatibility for the Wii U. I believe the console used cartridges.
While it initially felt like the console was very focused on backwards compatibility, I've really warmed up to the idea and I see it as a natural and logical evolution of the Wii U concept. Of course, this is Nintendo we're talking about, so logic isn't a word that goes hand and hand with their hardware development. I see this as a good move for a number of reasons:
-If the uDS used cartridges for the controller and a disk drive for the iHome, it would combine the potential for customers to start their purchase off with a huge catalogue already. -Unify game development to one console. The benefits are obvious. -Finally there would be no excuse (and frustration) for not having specific VC titles on a certain system. This furthers the potential for that service. -Continues the branding for both their services- yes, we're dropping "Wii" because it was a one-trick pony.
Some of you might be wondering what a system like this would cost. We have already seen Nintendo experiment with streaming in the past and the reason the Wii U was initially at its price point was because of the costs of the controller. However, if we split the handheld and the core disk-based iHome into two separate purchases, it has reduced pricing potential, and a boxed set would really not end up much more expensive that current gen offerings.
What say you?
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 08, 2015, 11:14:22 AM
I have heard similar ideas thrown out there before. I think they would be best to go a gaming tablet route with a full powered tablet that runs their Wii U OS and has physical buttons on the side like the GamePad does.
No matter what they do I want it to be a single machine that gets their full attention that can be used both as a portable for that crowd and a console that can be connected to a TV for those of us who don't want a portable.
I think what you are describing sounds far too complicated not just for Nintendo to engineer but for their typical consumer to fully appreciate. I agree they need some way to combine the two units into one, either having a single unit that can output to a TV and be low cost enough to develop for that if sales are high enough they will get support that is tailored to that demographic. In order for it to work they have to fully commit to bowing out of the arms race which it does appear they are willing to do.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on February 08, 2015, 11:49:04 AM
Now I'm thinking an Nvidea Shield with a dock for the TV while still having a dedicated handheld akin to a 4DS or Gameboy Next
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 08, 2015, 12:17:48 PM
I was just thinking that the concept is sound from a business standpoint, especially for Nintendo, whose handhelds sell better than their home consoles. Make the console a handheld.
I was thinking about how Nintendo has given the Wii U the ability to connect to the 3DS to play Smash Bros., which is just ridiculous to me because you still have to own Smash 3DS. This would be so much easier if everyone's handheld also functioned as a controller because then you would have a reason to carry it around to your friend's house. There's great ideas like Streetpass and Mii Plaza that unfortunately only work on 3DS, but imagine if you could take that data to your home console as well.
Both the Wii U and 3DS have good ideas but combining them, in my opinion, would be the best case scenario for Nintendo. If they put all the processing power on the handheld side and simply make the iHome, or uHome, a disk drive/streaming hub, they could still market it as a substantial addition and profit off of it being a much simpler device. If you consider MicroSD support that the New 3DS is finally taking advantage of, the uHome could even act as a hub for the titles you don't want to be lugging around on the handheld all the time, freeing up space for downloads on the go or just for the the games you're playing at the time.
Jeez, now I'm just setting myself up for disappointment if they don't make something like this.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2015, 04:03:25 PM
I've detailed out some ideas for just this kind of "Hybrid" system somewhere in these forums.
I think it would be a great idea, personally, but knowing that Nintendo can't ever seem to go far enough with an idea, for reasons..... I don't hold out much hope.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Mop it up on February 08, 2015, 07:04:46 PM
I don't think we'll see something like this as the next system, but we might in the future. I welcome the hybrid idea though, sounds good to me.
I think the successors to the Wii U and 3DS will still be separate systems, but be more connected with one another than those systems currently are. We'll probably start seeing some things like unified accounts and cross-buy on these systems. I think they'll drop the Wii name, but keep the DS name somehow, and probably find a new gimmick to base each system around.
We might see the hybrid idea after this next generation though.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 08, 2015, 08:05:00 PM
I don't know. The console space has become so obsolete with PCs outpacing them and performing better. At some point, you have to wonder how profitable it is to design a weak PC for gaming exclusively and throw it on the market.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 08, 2015, 08:41:30 PM
Yeah but is that really new? Commodore and Amiga both made big sales being gaming PC's back in their day. I don't think there will ever be a time where dedicated gaming platforms become obsolete I think the market will always adapt to allow for those types of devices. PC's have been superior to gaming consoles in every way since the very start that hasn't stopped different markets from co-existing all this time. The only market that basically did become obsolete was the Arcade and that hasn't disappeared entirely either.
I don't see any new comer challenging the big three though anytime soon, this is the longest the video game industry has supported three consoles from the same companies ever. Also all three have multiple platforms on the market and that hasn't stopped any of them from trying new things.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 08, 2015, 09:45:19 PM
I don't know. The console space has become so obsolete with PCs outpacing them and performing better. At some point, you have to wonder how profitable it is to design a weak PC for gaming exclusively and throw it on the market.
This has been said EVERY generation since I've been on the internet. Dedicated gaming systems are still here, and I see no reason for them to go away just yet.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: pokepal148 on February 08, 2015, 09:49:28 PM
Oh dear, tis is one of those Nintendo hybrid console posts isn't it...
Doggone it the Nintendo 1DS website is dead, guess I'll have to dig through the web archive for that joke (not worth it)
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 08, 2015, 10:03:14 PM
Nintendo has nothing to lose in combining their efforts, however. The way they market the system would obviously be very important, but the most appealing aspect would definitely be "it's a handheld and a console". Vita TV didn't work because it's a shameless and half-baked attempt at the idea that offers no benefit over a PS4, Vita, or even a PS3.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 08, 2015, 10:49:18 PM
Consoles will always have a place in one form or another compared to PCs so long as they continue to offer 2 key features:
1. Easy setup without having to worry about hardware or software compatibility. 2. Not having to interact with PC gamers.
I do think a hybrid console/handheld device is inevitable at this point, especially when Nintendo can't manage to support 2 devices at once anymore.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Louieturkey on February 09, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
Nintendo has nothing to lose in combining their efforts, however. The way they market the system would obviously be very important, but the most appealing aspect would definitely be "it's a handheld and a console". Vita TV didn't work because it's a shameless and half-baked attempt at the idea that offers no benefit over a PS4, Vita, or even a PS3.
They do lose something. They lose the ability to sell 2 systems.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 09, 2015, 08:35:02 PM
That hasn't really been going well for them.
And as I said, you could sell the uHome separately if you wanted to.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 09, 2015, 10:14:42 PM
Only it has since they're profiting off both systems. This is why we're never getting a Nintendo hybrid console because it would result in Nintendo making less profit. It's not like there's a different audience for Nintendo handhelds and home consoles, most of the people who own a Wii U also own a 3DS.
Even with the Wii U's poor hardware sales, they're still selling millions of extra software they couldn't if the just had one console. Just look at Smash Bros, currently over 6 million on the 3DS and 3 million on the Wii U. Majority of the people who own the Wii U version bought the 3DS version months earlier. If they had one system they would have lost millions in sales since they couldn't have released one game designed on shorter handheld experience with another designed around the bigger console experience.
That has been the whole point of Nintendo home consoles since the beginning. Many of their franchises get a smaller handheld game that's shorter and more casual friendly while the home console is the bigger more hardcore experience. This way Nintendo can sell 2 similar games to the same audience on 2 different consoles because each system and it's games fulfill a different need to that audience. A hybrid destroys the ability to do that which results in less sales, which is why it wont happen.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2015, 01:23:34 PM
Luigi Dude has Nintendo's logic dead on. Nintendo won't do the hybrid for that reason. But I think that rationale will be Nintendo's eventual downfall. They live too much in the present, making decisions that will affect the next five years because they're worried about the profits for this year. If something isn't profitable in 2015 they won't do it, even if it will be profitable by 2017. This is the company that blew off both online gaming and HDTV support because it didn't seem profitable six months into the future and they're STILL behind the rest of the industry on both concepts years later.
I don't care if the Wii U is making a profit, it is destroying Nintendo's marketability. As their audience gets smaller and smaller it will eventually cease to earn them a profit. And with their overly optimistic sales projections that they are failing to meet it's clear that they want to sell more systems and have a larger userbase. Selling two games on two platforms to an increasingly shrinking Nintendo userbase is small potatoes. A hybrid could attract a larger audience. Hell, if done right I think it could make Sony and MS look like outdated dinosaurs. So instead of SSB selling 9 million across two platforms it sells 15 million over one. Or even if it doesn't if the hybrid's userbase exceeds the combination of the 3DS and Wii U then every game has a higher sales potential.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Mop it up on February 10, 2015, 06:10:08 PM
I'm not sure if the technology is affordable enough yet to create a good hybrid system that can be priced competitively and attractively, and that's why I don't think it will be tried next generation. Maybe the one after that, depending on when it is.
Though, I also get the feeling that Nintendo enjoy making console games, and are disappointed that the console market has declined so much in Japan. So I think they still want to try at least one more console after the Wii U and see if they can spark interest back up.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Louieturkey on February 10, 2015, 06:56:03 PM
Mop it up has it about right. Nintendo wants to get Japan to buy consoles like they did during the SNES to PS2 eras. I really think they will try again to appeal directly to Japan on their next home console, but it won't be a hybrid because they won't want to cannibalize their handheld market there. They go safe with handheld and go big on the home console this next gen.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2015, 07:28:03 PM
I think aiming for Japan to buy consoles again is futile. Part of what the reason to make a hybrid is because Japan likes handhelds and America likes consoles so the hybrid is a model that could please both markets. Nintendo having tunnel-vision towards Japan at the expense of the much larger North American market is dumb.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 10, 2015, 07:50:49 PM
Nintendo having tunnel-vision towards Japan at the expense of the much larger North American market is dumb.
It's also one of the reasons the Wii U is a failure: they designed that thing for the Japanese market & with Japanese 3rd parties (who are right now at least 5 years behind the rest of the world in terms of console game development) in mind...in an era where Japan is a footnote in the console market & Western 3rd parties dominate the industry.
IF Nintendo makes another console, it needs to be designed for the West, which is the market for console experiences. Japan is iOS, handheld, & PC now.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 11, 2015, 01:06:06 AM
Even if Nintendo's next home console is a failure, they'll still keep trying since having a successful home and handheld console is still a better outcome to them then one hybrid. People have to remember Nintendo is financially still a huge company. The Wii and DS made them more money then ever before, and they still had billions in the bank before that. They can afford to keep making home consoles since if one becomes a success, it'll easily offset any losses they end up taking from the failures.
Plus after the 3DS and Wii U, I can guarantee the next home and handheld will be designed in a way that they're very profitable off the hardware from the start and even something selling Wii U numbers will have minimal losses. They will not give up home consoles since it's still better to have 2 markets and they can easily afford to still pursue it.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Caterkiller on February 11, 2015, 02:03:21 AM
While I am certain there won't just be one device it is sounding more and more like there will be one(not sure if this is the right term) operating system under which all games are developed.
So basically Iwata has been talking about handheld and homeconsole games sharing the same development tools and what not. To me it means we'll get a deal something like a Mac and an IPad. It's the same operating system, they can be linked by accounts and so on. When Mario 3D Galaxy comes out it will be available for both with the hand held scaled down a bit. Of course when Not So New Super Mario Bros 3 comes out it will be the exact same game on both.
Every game would basically support both platforms for the most part and would solve several problems at once I believe. 1 Mario Kart and 1 2D Mario per generation. Without an opposite handheld/console version to be made Nintendo is free to try other things. So that alone right there potentially takes care of super long drouts and we don't get franchise fatigue like when NSMB U came out(not debating the quality of that great game).
Then you have Japanese developers who seem to enjoy supporting handhelds and instantly you have a Nintendo home console with Japenese 3rd party support.
The biggest issue I suppose is the pwower issue for the handheld. Would that hold back the home console? How does the Vita do it with some PS4 games?
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 11, 2015, 03:28:31 AM
Would that hold back the home console? How does the Vita do it with some PS4 games?
The short answer is that the Vita versions are scaled-down ports. Depending on how graphically intensive the game was in the first place, this is either not noticeable at all (most indie games) or downright embarrassing (Resogun looks like a PSP game in the Vita version). Given how Nintendo keeps trying to hold handheld games back to allow Japanese developers to never improve, I'd imagine their next handheld will be about on par with the Vita. That would make PS3-caliber games/ports easy. I can't see them going much further than that if they make a dedicated handheld.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 11, 2015, 01:48:00 PM
I think the OS model would ruin the business model Luigi Dude is talking about. If the handheld and console libraries become too similar why would I bother with both? It's been easier to sell me both systems and games on both systems because they've been unique. I own Sony consoles but have never owned a Sony handheld because it seems pointless to me. I prefer consoles and the Sony handhelds don't seem to offer anything truly different so I don't bother buying them. But Nintendo has always kept me buying handhelds simply because they have enough unique games. If they're too similar I'll just pick one or the other.
I think the market wants a hybrid. The idea of different formats seems arbitrary. You want to be able to buy the game once and play it both on your TV at home and on your handheld device on the go. I figure someone will come up with the hybrid concept to cater to that consumer want and whoever does it successfully first will effective kill the separate console/handheld model overnight. Nintendo can be the company that implements it or the company left scrambling after someone else does it first. I think this one OS concept will make the need for a hybrid more obvious. People will notice that it's all the same games so why are they buying two systems and buying the same game twice?
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Caterkiller on February 11, 2015, 02:34:12 PM
I think the OS model would ruin the business model Luigi Dude is talking about. If the handheld and console libraries become too similar why would I bother with both? It's been easier to sell me both systems and games on both systems because they've been unique. I own Sony consoles but have never owned a Sony handheld because it seems pointless to me. I prefer consoles and the Sony handhelds don't seem to offer anything truly different so I don't bother buying them. But Nintendo has always kept me buying handhelds simply because they have enough unique games. If they're too similar I'll just pick one or the other.
Well thats the thing, things are different now and it seems like barely anyone is bothering with both anymore. 3D Mario gets developed and the slightly nicer version runs on the home console and the slightly less anti aliasing version runs on the hand held but the game as a whole sells well despite the form factor being used. Now there is no need for both a 3D Land and 3D World which frees up time and resources for something brand new. The time and money that would have went into that 2nd 3D Mario now goes into something else that could potentially earn just as much money for them. It's not as if something potentially profitable won't be made in the absence of a 2nd version.
I look at it as a complete win win. Sure some might be disappointed that we only get one set of Mario Kart tracks in a single generation but with the way Nintendo does DLC now a'days that is just a non-issue all together. There is a good chance franchises don't get over used, more new creations come out of all of it and droughts become less of an issue.
I think the steadier flow of software from Nintendo that would simultaneously keep both systems afloat would outweigh not being able to sell 2 separate versions of the same franchise.
Of course certain games will be tailored more for the home console and vice versa but at this point what does that mean anymore with the likes of Smash Bros, Star Fox 64, OoT, MM, DKC Returns, Xenoblade or Animal Crossing? What once was only able to be done on home consoles is done very well as a handheld. Same with 3D World and Land, I love both games but neither feel like they are inherently a hand held or home console title.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 11, 2015, 05:05:07 PM
The funny thing is that the OS idea would probably benefit me better because I don't really like handhelds and I would be easier for me if I could just get the Nintendo console and not feel I was missing out on anything. Maybe we would actually get a real Pokémon game on a console for a change.
But one factor in all this is third party support. I own a 3DS but not a Wii U. The games seem similar and I prefer consoles so why didn't I get the console? Well third parties actually make 3DS games I want to play. In terms of first party titles the two are not that different but the improved third party support on the 3DS gives it a superior overall lineup.
If Nintendo did this OS idea would third parties play along? I figure Nintendo would once again design the whole thing with only themselves in mind and would be in someway incompatible with the third party console games designed for the other platforms. So the Nintendo console would still have weak third party support. Okay so maybe the handheld maintains decent support so we get console ports of the third party handheld games. But the console still has to compete with Sony and MS who will have the "cutting edge" console games while Nintendo's console just gets handheld ports, and there is still a stigma that handheld games are inferior. While I would want the console over the handheld I don't see North America embracing a glorified non-portable version of the handheld with arbitrarily incompatible games. I already think the Wii U's marketability in this region was hurt largely because it seems so low tech.
The idea really seems like splitting the hybrid into two models and I figure one model will fail and probably the console one because consoles are supposed to be beefier than handhelds. Now the hybrid wouldn't be able to have cutting edge hardware in order to have decent portability. But I think marketing it as not so much a console, but a universal game system would make it work. The concept is also more like Nintendo going with just a handheld but tailoring it in a way to work in all environments. The timing could also play a factor. If released years before the PS5/XB2 come out maybe the current gen level of tech will be old enough that they could make a handheld version of it and then it has a few years to build a userbase before consoles that would top its tech come out. The PS Vita is already pretty advanced hardware for a handheld so in a couple of years you can probably make a pretty fancy hybrid.
I'd be a lot more optimistic with the OS idea if Nintendo made it so you buy one copy of the game and it works on both and the handheld version scales down like when you lower graphic settings in a PC game. Maybe some games that really push the hardware only work on the console and maybe some games that need a touchscreen only work on the handheld but 90% of the library is the same game and you buy it once and it works for both - same physical media, same online account. That effectively is the hybrid idea and it doesn't limit the console hardware so in a way it's better.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Louieturkey on February 11, 2015, 06:49:57 PM
I believe the Turbo Graphix 16 had a handheld version that used the same game cards. Granted it cost like $200 more than the console, but they technically did this idea back in the 90s.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 12, 2015, 01:54:08 AM
Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Stogi on February 12, 2015, 03:39:14 AM
8 out 10 best selling games each year for the last five years have been multiplayer games. 8 out of 10.
There's a reason why Sony is so popular right now. They get it. It's all about user experience and that's what they focused on. Nothing makes a game more fun than sharing it with someone.
So unless combining the handheld and console makes it easier to communicate to other gamers, I don't see the point. Because it was never about the games. We'll play anything as long as there are people to share it with. Us, more refined, gamers will pick through the garbage to find a gem while the majority of people are playing flappy bird. Again, it was never about the games.
So what should Nintendo do? Well they struck gold with the Wii because people had a blast experiencing something together in the same room. I suggest they go that route again. Either that or the exact opposite. I'm not sure and don't really care.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Shaymin on February 12, 2015, 07:17:22 AM
Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened outside of Japan.
Mild fix there.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Louieturkey on February 12, 2015, 06:22:00 PM
Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened outside of Japan.
Mild fix there.
It's easier to find your mild fix if you bold the part you fixed. :)
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Khushrenada on February 12, 2015, 08:19:22 PM
8 out 10 best selling games each year for the last five years have been multiplayer games. 8 out of 10.
That's interesting. I never thought about that. I'm such a single player gamer these days. Even Smash Bros. I play as a single player experience. The only multiplayer gaming I've done in the past 3 years would be some Fortune Street, Mario Party's and Animal Crossing: New Leaf and the latter I have a hard time classifying as multiplayer due to the fact that I don't really "play" much with other users so much as make deals.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Phil on February 13, 2015, 01:02:20 PM
I think for the next console Nintendo needs to realize it's a global company and stop catering to just Japan for the most part. Japan as a console market has already moved towards mobile and handheld gaming with the latter being usurped by the former more and more as time goes on. The Wii brand name is damaged goods, and Nintendo will be better suited getting away from the name with their next console. In addition to that, Nintendo cannot just try catering to either the core or the casual gamer. The company needs both to succeed, and halfhearted attempts to bring in both will not do Nintendo well.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 13, 2015, 05:44:23 PM
I think for the next console Nintendo needs to realize it's a global company and stop catering to just Japan for the most part. Japan as a console market has already moved towards mobile and handheld gaming with the latter being usurped by the former more and more as time goes on. The Wii brand name is damaged goods, and Nintendo will be better suited getting away from the name with their next console. In addition to that, Nintendo cannot just try catering to either the core or the casual gamer. The company needs both to succeed, and halfhearted attempts to bring in both will not do Nintendo well.
I would argue that the Wii U WAS their attempt to cater to both the casual and core gamer. The problem they have is that the casuals left them a long time ago, and there weren't enough new core-oriented titles to convince the core audience that Nintendo had changed (at least early on). So we ended up with a console that doesn't really cater to either audience, that half-hearted end result you spoke of. Meanwhile, Sony catered hard to the core gamer, but designed the big hook of their console around the sharing experience that hooked a wider audience. Nintendo would need something of that nature, along with evidence of continual and quality 1st and 3rd party software.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 13, 2015, 06:53:47 PM
Part of me thinks that if you're seen as targeting casuals then you're labelled as casual by core gamers. That may not be accurate but that's how it is seen. For years Nintendo had a problem where they made enough games for kids they got labelled as kiddy even if there were other games available. Sony's console have typically seemed very core-gamer focused but they've always had kids games and casual games as well and usually don't have trouble selling to those audiences. A lot of it seems to be what gets the greater focus in the marketing.
Nintendo doesn't have enough resources to effectively target all audiences by themselves. No company really does and Nintendo is probably the most qualified to try in the first place. They need third parties to help fill out their lineup. It keeps coming back to that. With Nintendo I feel like I'm dealing with a baseball team that has had lousy pitching for years and years and the team never contends and keeps making no effort to improve their pitching. "I don't understand why we had a losing record again. We added a great first baseman last year." Nintendo is missing a key element to having a successful console. They somehow by the miracles of miracles found success last gen despite missing this element but they can never assume that their consoles will succeed without it.
Make a console that third parties will actually support (or at least don't make one that they technically CAN'T support with multi-platform development) and now they will have enough of a lineup to appeal to both audiences.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Evan_B on February 13, 2015, 10:48:11 PM
Third parties will definitely flesh out their library but I don't want third party games that are garbage. Ubisoft slaughtered Watch Dogs profitability on Wii U because they chose to not release it after it got mediocre reviews.
Say what you will, but the Wii at least had a decent third party presence. Most of that third party support was garbage, but since everyone developed for it we got games like Dead Space Extraction, No More Heroes, and Madworld.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 13, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
The GameCube got most multiplatform games of its era and it was still a flop. Third party support's nice to have, but it doesn't necessarily mean that much.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 15, 2015, 03:37:59 PM
The Turbo Express was not the only handheld that could play console games, Nomad and Game Gear had that capability also. Nomad it was built in, Game Gear required an adapter but it was still a feature. I had a Nomad and was excited that it might extend the life of Genesis by turning the focus on handheld games it could live on, something that Nintendo managed to prove was doable with GBA but once again Sega sucked it up.
Why does everyone forget Game Cube was unique because it didn't play DVD at a time when DVD was a hot new thing and the other two did. Man I remember all the time that kept coming up in conversations about Game Cube it was a major thing the other two did GC didn't do so NO it was NOT on par with the other two it was weaker even if marginally weaker it wasn't a major issue to everyone but it sure as hell was an issue so don't bring up GC had no reason to not have 3rd party support when it really did, by having lower sales and gimping the hardware even a little did give developers and excuse NOT to make games for it, or to make scaled down ports which THEY DID by the way and people complained about it then. Also it's lack of online was a major issue that often gets ignored but was often a topic of much contention during the time it was out. Countless games were either left off the console or missing key features because the online was non-existent so don't act like Game Cube was somehow a special case where Nintendo DID have hardware on par with its competition and failed because that is a flat out lie. It was as gimped as every other hardware its just people over look that because they I don't know just forget or didn't care or think that it wasn't a big deal when it was.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Spak-Spang on February 15, 2015, 09:06:55 PM
I think the best option for Nintendo is to make an OS and program language that can easily be used for both systems.
This would allow Nintendo to link games where it makes sense and not where it doesn't make sense.
For example:
Virtual Console could be linked to one account and play games on both systems with one purchase. This makes sense.
Some games Like New Super Mario Games, and Fire Emblem games could exist with one purchase on both systems and be slightly scaled down on the portable.
However, some games could be console and portable exclusive. For example a new Zelda pushing the hardware limits could be only available on the console system, and a portable Pokemon only available on the home system...but perhaps they could design a mode for both that allows you to enjoy the game in a special way if you have both systems.
I don't think Nintendo wants to both consoles the same...and not get the sales from both. However, Nintendo wants to make development of games cheaper on both systems, and create an infrastructure where they have the most freedom possible to release games on their systems.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 15, 2015, 11:17:35 PM
I think the GameCube's biggest failure was the physical design and look of the console and controller. Pound for pound (well, aside from some shaders) it was every bit as powerful as the Xbox - but it was a purple box (for a while at least), and the controller, while actually being one of the best controllers on any console ever, period, just screamed "my first game console" when you looked at it. There was no reason to limit it to 1.5GB for game storage either, even if it didn't play DVD movies (natively).
If the GameCube launched in black only, and later added other colors (like the N64), and the controller didn't have kidney bean shaped buttons, I venture to say it would have been much more successful. It just looked like a kids console, and that reputation stuck.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Adrock on February 15, 2015, 11:37:09 PM
Besides the handle (which at least served a purpose), Gamecube is my favorite console design. But yeah, launching with indigo, particularly as the marketed color, was a big mistake.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 16, 2015, 01:27:00 AM
design flaws were a huge factor but some people still act like it was not gimped at all which it was, even as you said if it didn't play back DVD movies, being 1.5 gig disk did set it back even if just in perception. All those things added up to a terrible image and nobody wanted to be seen making games for it let alone playing it. I loved it but every time I went into a game store to ask about a game that was no yet confirmed for Game Cube I was always treated with bullshit smirks about why not just get a PS2 or an Xbox.
The worst part of Game Cube was as great as it was as a console and as much better library it had than N64, its 1st party games were so divisive for the first time ever you had the faithful actually hating not only Zelda but also Mario. It was the only Nintendo console I can think of were people actually expressed hatred for the main line Mario and Zelda game as well as the mainline Star Fox and other games, it was so divisive like that. I think Game Cube had some great games but the games I liked are games others hated and it went the other way too.
Part of it was compounded by the kiddie image, it was so polarizing that this very site, well Planet GameCube, had a filter that didn't let you type the word kiddie in any shape because people were fed up with it. Take for example someone who already felt the judgmental eyes of their peers looking down on them for purchasing a purple lunchbox that looked like a toy and played the most cartoony Zelda and arguably the most cartooney Mario game ever made. Combine that with the annoying FLUDD, the childish sounding voice of Luigi in Luigi's Mansion and the success of Super Monkey Ball if you already had doubts about the consoles image you most likely ignored many of the better games in favor or proving to yourself and others it was a serious console, which is why Melee and Prime sold so well and were more universally praised by a group that typically hates both fighting games and FPS games leading to many making the claim Melee was not a fighting game and prime was an FPA instead of an FPS, which caused heated debates right here in fact which I distinctly remember being a part of.
With Wii it was a little easier because Mii's were universally praised despite their simplistic design but someone who despised the kiddie label of Game Cube would have gone into Wii already fighting that image up front. During the NES days coming off as a toy worked because retailers were tired of video games after the crash and they were desperate. Game Cube reeked of them trying to recapture that image and embracing it which they continued right on into Wii.
It could be argued their console design has always been more "Tonka" compared to their competition even SNES looked like it was made out of Lego blocks. N64 was probably the most "stylish" of their consoles and that was held back by the carts and Pikachu edition.
Wii U is oddly enough their most modern looking console and the only one to actually look like a true multimedia gaming device instead of just another toy that plays Nintendo games. Sitting next to my PS4 Wii U looks like it belongs, Wii looked like it was so out of place compared to PS3 and Game Cube and N64 both looked like garbage compared to their counterparts, even Genesis had a more sophisticated look that was praised among gaming press at the time for being stylish, both models.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 16, 2015, 01:32:58 AM
The disc size was really the only thing holding the GameCube back from a technical perspective, but it definitely hurt. I'm pretty sure that was the biggest thing holding back the third party games the system didn't get that the other two did. Fitting GTA into 1.5 GB would have been tough.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 16, 2015, 01:30:17 PM
The GameCube got most multiplatform games of its era and it was still a flop. Third party support's nice to have, but it doesn't necessarily mean that much.
But Nintendo is probably fucked without it. It isn't going to turn things around by itself but things will never turn around without it. As long as the third party support is still a problem Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot every generation.
As for the Gamecube, to me it was death by a thousand cuts. If you took a bullet point list of the three consoles that gen the Cube finished last in most categories and was probably not number one in any of them (well I guess they were number one on wireless controllers). During a time where Nintendo had to show that the N64's problems were a fluke thing they showed up with a very lazy effort.
The Cube had: - smaller discs - no dvd support - looked like a purple lunchbox during a time when Nintendo was routinely accused of being kiddy - effectively no online gaming - an irregular control layout that did not work for certain games, particularly fighting games - memory cards at launch that were 1/16 the size of the PS2 cards but cost the same amount of money - a "hits" discounted line that was $30 when everyone else had $20
Those last couple of bullet points are minor but then I think none of these things are a dealbreaker by themselves but combined it all looks pretty bad. And every one of these things was completely avoidable. It was like Nintendo was giving people a reason to write them off.
This is also the console that launched with beat-it-in-a-weekend Luigi's Mansion the same week the Xbox launched with Halo. And they lost Rare, which was their top asset on the N64, a year after the system launched. And they turned Zelda, which had undoubtedly the biggest amount of hype of all the titles pre-launch, into a cartoon during the peak of "Nintendo is kiddy". The timing of all of that was terrible. The Cube needed to be the "show me" console where Nintendo won everyone back and instead they found a way to at the very least do everything a little bit poorly. For me it the big reveal where I discovered how little self-awareness Nintendo has. I think they thought they could cut all these corners because they're FUCKIN' NINTENDO and everyone will just line up and buy their **** no matter what! They seemed very unaware of what sort of image the N64 had given them.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 16, 2015, 01:51:48 PM
I actually agree with most of what you said Ian, but I disagree that just being Nintendo wasn't enough, I still have the EGM and Game Informer magazines that cover the pre-launch and they were so sure Game Cube would win they declared it a forgone fact. I think what hurt Game Cube more than anything were news reports it was selling so badly they had to stop manufacturing to clear inventory and then slashed the price, that sort of bad press killed any hopes it had going forward, all the other things they mostly could have overcome if they had done more, they could have overcome the wonky controller just like they did with Wii by using it effectively, they failed to do that even their best games would have been better using a normal controller. They could have easily made Double Dash and all those Mario Sports games online capable at the very least and that alone would have put them on the map and sold enough of those LAN units to get 3rd parties to at least consider Online on GC, they didn't need to do much more than that and yet they blew it. Despite blowing it they went out of their way to BEG 3rd parties to work for them handing out their characters to everybody in exchange for exclusive deals they struggled but they FOUGHT for Game Cube, Wii and Wii U they haven't fought one bit.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 16, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
I'm surprised no ones mentioned the terrible marketing campaign for the Gamecube with many of their games Nintendo gave which is another reason the system didn't do as well. Seriously, the system was already struggling by Summer 2002 and they cut the price and rushed Mario Sunshine out so it could be a summer release and how do they advertise it?
Who in the **** thought this ad was a good idea. Yeah Mario Sunshine would already end up being pretty controversial anyway because of certain game design choices anyway, but this ad did no favor what so ever and turned many off before they'd even play the damn game. After the Gamecube price cut this was suppose to be the game that would help turn things around since it's Mario for **** sake and at this time it had been 6 years since Mario 64 was last released. They needed to bring their A game in marketing this title and instead they advertise it like some shovelware trash.
It's almost like during the Gamecube era Nintendo was intentionally trying to make sure people didn't buy their games because many of the ads were just downright awful and made many of the games looks very unappealing to anyone that wasn't already one of the Nintendo faithful.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 16, 2015, 04:57:24 PM
It's almost like during the Gamecube era Nintendo was intentionally trying to make sure people didn't buy their games because many of the ads were just downright awful and made many of the games looks very unappealing to anyone that wasn't already one of the Nintendo faithful.
Yeah, the Mario Sunshine commercial was as godawful as the game it was advertising, but we still got some good commercials during the GameCube era, such as this Metroid Prime live action trailer:
and this Eternal Darkness trailer (a short version of a much longer overall trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwYvczv7kCE)):
Both Western-developed games. Go figure.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 16, 2015, 05:33:05 PM
The Mario Sunshine ad was so terrible that they quickly ditched it and replaced it with a different one. Think about that. How often has any videogame company replaced an ad, not because of any controversial content, but simply because the ad just plain sucks? And this is the game that supposed to be the big killer app. They couldn't pick a worse time to **** the bed with a lousy ad.
Also relating to the marketing, that was the last gen where videogame mags mattered even a little bit. PlayStation and Xbox each had official magazines published by an independent company that offered demos. Nintendo in comparison had the inhouse Nintendo Power, which was always seen as a kids' mag, and Nintendo was fiercely anti-demo. Again that's little stuff but it was just something else where Nintendo was unnecessarily inferior to their competition.
The Cube era had some amazing games but it was really frustrating as a fan. It was like Nintendo had a strong team on paper but kept losing key games by scoring on themselves.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 16, 2015, 06:11:07 PM
I think the SMS ad was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or purposely bad, but it was just borderline enough that it just seemed like a horrible commercial and stupid game to most people. Having said that, FLUDD should not have played such a major role in the game.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 16, 2015, 09:37:03 PM
I think the SMS ad was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or purposely bad, but it was just borderline enough that it just seemed like a horrible commercial and stupid game to most people. Having said that, FLUDD should not have played such a major role in the game.
My biggest complains were always the excessively long intro you can't skip which is still annoying as hell, and FLUDD being mandatory instead of a new "power up" that would be optional but helpful. That and every time I get to the first non-FLUDD level I can't beat it and get frustrated and quite.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 16, 2015, 10:31:28 PM
I just started playing Sunshine again recently, and oh my god you aren't kidding about how long that intro was. It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: ThePerm on February 17, 2015, 12:16:43 AM
the wii u is a stepping stone in the way that it is currently turning a profit and is a bridge between the last gap between the time when graphics wont matter.
if i can get a console from nintendo that is marginally better than ps4 for under $300 2-3 years from now then I'll be pretty good.
however, they had better damn well be ready when the next generation comes.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Stogi on February 17, 2015, 12:41:09 AM
Hahaha tally another console thread that dissolves into a GC conversation. Face it. You fuckers loved that stupid little box
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 17, 2015, 07:43:18 PM
Yes, the intro is ridiculous, and the voice acting is terrible.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 17, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
Hahaha tally another console thread that dissolves into a GC conversation. Face it. You fuckers loved that stupid little box
I did love the Game Cube it was awesome. I hated the Wii though so that makes up for it right?
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: broodwars on February 17, 2015, 09:54:25 PM
The GameCube years weren't the easiest and I personally think Nintendo's 1st party flagship titles largely underwhelmed, but that console quite possibly has more of my favorite all-time titles than any other console (though the SNES still has my absolute favorite game). It's definitely a console, though, that was saved by 3rd parties & Nintendo-published 3rd party titles.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 17, 2015, 10:02:38 PM
A lot of people use the Wii U as a stepping stone on their way to the PS4/Xbone section at Best Buy.
[Instant Rim Shot]
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 17, 2015, 10:20:07 PM
I guess coming off N64 Game Cube looked like it was really Nintendo making an effort again, but to be totally honest Game Boy Player really helped push me over the edge to getting one. I think a lot of it was just it was the last time you felt like Nintendo had a chance even though they really didn't. By the end of the generation it was tiring rooting for Nintendo and when Wii came along and showed us that they as a company were willing to turn their backs on the core gamers that made their empire in the first place to chase after the casuals it was hard to justify supporting them. If not for the retro goodness Wii would have totally and completely sucked. The retro stuff makes it just really suck.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Stogi on February 18, 2015, 02:24:01 AM
A lot of people use the Wii U as a stepping stone on their way to the PS4/Xbone section at Best Buy.
[Instant Rim Shot]
Stepping stone? More like "doorstop" or "paperweight". Right now, mine's my virtual GameCube machine while I'm dealing with a bit of gaming burnout.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Shaymin on February 18, 2015, 07:48:06 AM
The Gamecube can go **** itself.
Now the Wii - that's a system worth memorializing.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Adrock on February 18, 2015, 07:49:59 AM
Jebus, broodwars, Brandogg used "stepping stone" because of the thread title. Replacing "stepping stone" with "doorstop" or "paperweight" doesn't make sense. "A lot of people use the Wii U as a [doorstop/paperweight] on their way to the PS4/Xbone section at Best Buy."
How did you... Ugh, never mind. I'll just go.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Khushrenada on February 18, 2015, 10:37:39 AM
Hahaha tally another console thread that dissolves into a GC conversation. Face it. You fuckers loved that stupid little box
When have I ever said I didn't like the GameCube. I'll always love the GameCube. I've loved it's shape and design. It's awesome controllers and all the many games it can play. It is an excellent device with most franchises having one of my favorite games in their series on it. Cube cube cube cube cube cube cube. You are the best!
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 18, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Hahaha tally another console thread that dissolves into a GC conversation. Face it. You fuckers loved that stupid little box
When have I ever said I didn't like the GameCube. I'll always love the GameCube. I've loved it's shape and design. It's awesome controllers and all the many games it can play. It is an excellent device with most franchises having one of my favorite games in their series on it. Cube cube cube cube cube cube cube. You are the best!
Considering many of us came here when the site was still called planet GameCube is it surprise its most of our favorite console?
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 18, 2015, 02:44:22 PM
Prior to the Gamecube's release I was very optimistic about Nintendo making a comeback. I thought at the time that the N64's sole problem was using cartridges and if Nintendo had not made that one crucial mistake they would have been fine. So I assumed they learned from that and things would bounce back to normal with the Cube. Remember at this point the idea of Nintendo having lousy third party support had been a one-off anomaly. The NES and SNES seemed a more accurate representation of what Nintendo really was like. So Nintendo had flubbed one gen and then things would return to "normal", right? Of course I was feeling like this before the Dreamcast had been discontinued so I still saw Sega and Nintendo as the status quo.
I got less and less confident as the launch approached. There wasn't much third party presence at E3 2001 for the Cube and Luigi's Mansion didn't seem like a good flagship launch title to me (most of us had assumed a sequel to Super Mario 64 would be the flagship title) and they turned Zelda into a cartoon. None of that was encouraging. By the time we had the Pac-Man Vs. E3 where Nintendo acted like that was a valid substitute for online gaming I knew it was all over. The Gamecube years were when I found out what Nintendo was really like. I haven't had any confidence in their abilities as console makers since.
The Cube could have at the very least beat the **** out of the Xbox if people with some idea of what they're doing were calling the shots. It was easily capable of more. The Wii U on the other hand is so far off what a successful console would be like that I pretty much would have done everything different if it were up to me. But the Cube? Just don't do a lot of the obviously stupid **** and it would probably have made a world of difference while still being essentially the same product.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Mop it up on February 18, 2015, 07:35:58 PM
- a "hits" discounted line that was $30 when everyone else had $20
Not that this really matters, but the only Player's Choice game on the GameCube that was $29.99 was SSBMelee. The other games in the line were indeed $19.99. You might be getting this confused with the N64, where its Player's Choice lineup was $39.99 to the PlayStation's $19.99 Greatest Hits.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 18, 2015, 07:59:53 PM
- a "hits" discounted line that was $30 when everyone else had $20
Not that this really matters, but the only Player's Choice game on the GameCube that was $29.99 was SSBMelee. The other games in the line were indeed $19.99. You might be getting this confused with the N64, where its Player's Choice lineup was $39.99 to the PlayStation's $19.99 Greatest Hits.
I recall SSB being more money but I thought it was even more than the others, like the standard was $30 and SSB was even higher.
Title: Re: The Wii U as a stepping stone.
Post by: marvel_moviefan_2012 on February 19, 2015, 12:29:03 AM
- a "hits" discounted line that was $30 when everyone else had $20
Not that this really matters, but the only Player's Choice game on the GameCube that was $29.99 was SSBMelee. The other games in the line were indeed $19.99. You might be getting this confused with the N64, where its Player's Choice lineup was $39.99 to the PlayStation's $19.99 Greatest Hits.
I recall SSB being more money but I thought it was even more than the others, like the standard was $30 and SSB was even higher.
No I am sure Mop it Up is right because I mostly bought Player's Choice games and I never paid more than $20 for any GC game except a handful, Melee was higher because it was the best selling game on the console.
