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Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 27, 2011, 12:52:19 AM
Title: PlayStation All Stars: Better than Super Smash Bros Brawl!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 27, 2011, 12:52:19 AM
Looks like Sony is hard at work on a Smash Bros. clone for PS3 http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-25-what-is-superbots-very-amazing-playstation-3-exclusive (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-25-what-is-superbots-very-amazing-playstation-3-exclusive)
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Word of the mystery brawler first emerged on The Paul Gale Network, which claimed it featured a number of Sony mascots, including Parappa the Rappa (Parappa the Rapper), Kratos (God of War), Sly Cooper (Sly Cooper), Nathan Drake (Uncharted), Sweet Tooth (Twisted Metal), Colonel Mael Radec (Killzone) and Fat Princess (Fat Princess). The report also mentioned a Sandover Village stage (from Jak & Daxter), Hot Shots Golf characters in stage backgrounds, a LittleBigPlanet stage and a Buzz! trivia mini-game. A James Bond character is also mentioned. Current speculation points to SuperBot Entertainment, a Culver City, California-based studio confirmed to be working on a "very amazing PS3 game" for Sony Computer Entertainment America, as developer of the game. SuperBot's website describes the company as "an exclusive developer of Sony Computer Entertainment America" and reveals it is "currently in production of a yet-to-be announced PS3 title".
and PaulGale Network has some of the supposed details http://paulgalenetwork.com/home/2011/11/18/title-fight-developer-name-might-be-revealed-soon-but-for-now-a-few-more-answers/ (http://paulgalenetwork.com/home/2011/11/18/title-fight-developer-name-might-be-revealed-soon-but-for-now-a-few-more-answers/)
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Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 27, 2011, 12:56:13 AM
That's just kind of sad.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 27, 2011, 12:56:50 AM
If this game becomes reality and turns out to be a PS3 game, I am so schooling you all as Sly Cooper (my favorite Sony character). :cool;
I'll be interested to see how this game would differentiate itself from Smash Bros. Perhaps an actually-good Single-Player component, something that the Smash games have tried valiantly to do but have never quite gotten right?
If this turns out to be a real game, it could be terrible but I'd like to be optimistic on this one. Sly Cooper at first glance seems a pretty blatantly Mario clone, but it turned out to definitely be its own experience in the end (and its sequels even more so). The same goes for other Sony franchises like Ratchet & Clank, too.
On the downside, the last time Sony tried to combine several of its main franchises in Playstation Move Heroes, that didn't turn out well...in any conceivable way. :'(
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Morari on November 27, 2011, 03:47:25 AM
Sly Cooper at first glance seems a pretty blatantly Mario clone, but it turned out to definitely be its own experience in the end (and its sequels even more so).
I always thought it looked to be more of a stealth title than a straight-up platformer. Not much like Mario at all, in fact. Still, I'd rather see a Sega All-Stars 2D Fighter. :)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 27, 2011, 04:04:07 AM
I would totally buy a Sega-based Smash Bros. clone and kick all your asses with Ryo Hazuki.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 27, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
It's no DMTV World Fighters
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 27, 2011, 06:42:36 PM
I'd rather just see more Power Stone. Sorry, that was Capcom. I just associate it Sega because of the Dreamcast.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 27, 2011, 07:47:03 PM
What is the Paul Gale Network and why should their rumors be believable?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 27, 2011, 08:11:34 PM
But he's been in the industry for atleast a decade and supposedly has contacts at several devs like Retro.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 27, 2011, 08:15:01 PM
K, I asked because sometimes I will see these random websites that have no credibility posts "news" or rumors and people act like they are reliable.
Anyways, this would not be the first Smash Bros. clone. Hell, we just had a very good one with Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion (and the XL directors cut).
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on November 27, 2011, 11:29:45 PM
The world doesn't need another Smash Bros-esque game because we already have Smash Bros. Come up with some original ideas, Sony.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 12:00:05 AM
Maybe something with a decent online mode will further inspire Nintendo to beef up their online system.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: SixthAngel on November 28, 2011, 12:13:45 AM
Anyways, this would not be the first Smash Bros. clone. Hell, we just had a very good one with Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion (and the XL directors cut).
Jump Superstars and Ultimate stars as well. They were Japan only though.
The biggest problem to me seems to be the lack of Sony characters.
So Sackboy, Nathan Drake, Kratos and Sly Cooper according Brood. Who else? Most of their games are third party and even Crash isn't actually owned by them. The game could end up being good but they just don't have the characters to make a game like this I care about. The whole point of Smash Bros. was bringing iconic characters together and Sony just doesn't have the icons.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on November 28, 2011, 12:38:14 AM
Jak and Daxter. Ratchet and Clank. Twisted Metal. Resistance.
Sony has a ton of characters they can pick from any of their franchises.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: UncleBob on November 28, 2011, 12:48:40 AM
Marvel Vs. Capcom, DC Vs. Mortal Combat, Street Fighter vs. Tekken...
Nintendo Vs. Sony?
Never happen. :D
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 12:52:04 AM
Jak and Daxter. Ratchet and Clank. Twisted Metal. Resistance.
Sony has a ton of characters they can pick from any of their franchises.
The thing that worries me if this did come to pass was how Sony would depict these characters in a single game. For example, Sly and Bentley are cel shaded characters in the Sly Cooper games. But because the the Jak and Ratchet characters weren't, they redesigned the Sly characters to fit the art style of the other characters. The result was just...BLEH!
Plus, they swapped out Sly's iconic cane for a g-damn whip, because that makes sense.
I can't even imagine how they would try to do a standardized "look" for the characters when you start throwing in Resistance and Killzone characters. And I don't want to see it.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 12:57:32 AM
They'd likely just go the Smash Bros route and keep in character in their own style. It worked with Toon Link being cel shaded and Solid Snake being there. I mean, I hope they would.
Also, art style aside, all of those heroes have pretty much the same look.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 01:19:37 AM
They'd likely just go the Smash Bros route and keep in character in their own style. It worked with Toon Link being cel shaded and Solid Snake being there. I mean, I hope they would.
Also, art style aside, all of those heroes have pretty much the same look.
One would hope so, but something tells me that Sony would be stupid enough to try to do a "war has changed" gritty Sly/Ratchet/etc. to have them conform to something like the Killzone art style. They've already screwed up two team-up games (Heroes on the Move, All 4 One), so I wouldn't put it past them to screw up a 3rd.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 03:45:04 AM
Jak and Daxter. Ratchet and Clank. Twisted Metal. Resistance.
Sony has a ton of characters they can pick from any of their franchises.
Yeah but... is anybody really falling all over themselves to have them in a fighting game? These guys don't sound very interesting to play as, except for Parappa and Kratos. Maybe. I don't think Sony will be able to count on their properties to make the game good, or sell it. I mean, Buzz trivia? What the ****?
On the other hand, I am generally happy that another group is taking a shot at making a 4-player fighter, because its a niche that could stand some moving forward.
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SuperBot's website describes the company as "an exclusive developer of Sony Computer Entertainment America" and reveals it is "currently in production of a yet-to-be announced PS3 title".
According to a job advert, SuperBot is after a senior combat designer with "a strong familiarity with fighting games and fighting game theory".
Another job advert asks for a lead designer with "a strong familiarity with online mode and matchmaking design as they apply to console gaming".
Haha, well, they're in the right region for finding a fighting game wizard, at least.
So do they even have anyone noteworthy at SuperBot working on it yet? Being a new company potentially full of nobodies does not fill me with confidence.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on November 28, 2011, 07:10:10 AM
Yeah but... is anybody really falling all over themselves to have them in a fighting game? These guys don't sound very interesting to play as, except for Parappa and Kratos. Maybe. I don't think Sony will be able to count on their properties to make the game good, or sell it. I mean, Buzz trivia? What the ****?
Did anyone know they wanted a Mario racing game before they got one? If you put a bunch of recognizable characters together in the same game, it immediately attracts attention. I'd at least be interested if it was more than Smash Bros. with Sony characters.
And no company, not even Nintendo, can count on their properties to make any game good.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 28, 2011, 10:15:10 AM
Jak and Daxter. Ratchet and Clank. Twisted Metal. Resistance.
Sony has a ton of characters they can pick from any of their franchises.
The thing that worries me if this did come to pass was how Sony would depict these characters in a single game. For example, Sly and Bentley are cel shaded characters in the Sly Cooper games. But because the the Jak and Ratchet characters weren't, they redesigned the Sly characters to fit the art style of the other characters. The result was just...BLEH!
Plus, they swapped out Sly's iconic cane for a g-damn whip, because that makes sense.
I can't even imagine how they would try to do a standardized "look" for the characters when you start throwing in Resistance and Killzone characters. And I don't want to see it.
Why does the art style need to be standardized anyway? Have you ever seen the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit? In that movie there were cartoons interacting with live action people. Why can't there be a video game just like that? Leave the cell shaded characters as they are, and leave the realistic looking characters as they are. Just put them together but don't standardize their art.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 10:16:12 AM
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Did anyone know they wanted a Mario racing game before they got one? If you put a bunch of recognizable characters together in the same game, it immediately attracts attention. I'd at least be interested if it was more than Smash Bros. with Sony characters.
Attention is not sales. There are popular characters in WWE Crush Hour, Wu Tang Shaolin Style, and DMTV World Fighters and I'm reasonably sure they sold like ass (those games being bad/okay/good, respectively). I'm skeptical a game like this is a good investment for Sony unless they're paying the SuperBot guys peanuts. Actually, I bet this game will have a pretty short dev cycle...
I'm certain that only Nintendo's core characters can move copies of an awful game on star power alone. Well, maybe also Master Chief and 50 Cent. Sony doesn't have those guys.
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And no company, not even Nintendo, can count on their properties to make any game good.
Thanks for the insight!!! But they can count on them to make them sell. I don't think Sony can.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on November 28, 2011, 10:55:15 AM
Thanks for the insight!!! Point being, the game will sell better with recognizable characters than it would without them. Recognizable brands are recognizable. What a novel concept.
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There are popular characters in WWE Crush Hour, Wu Tang Shaolin Style, and DMTV World Fighters and I'm reasonably sure they sold like ass (those games being bad/okay/good, respectively). I'm skeptical a game like this is a good investment for Sony unless they're paying the SuperBot guys peanuts. Actually, I bet this game will have a pretty short dev cycle...
You just addressed your own issue with those games. Bad games typically sell badly. You're assuming Sony's Smash clone will suck and you're basing this on nothing. It may very well suck and suck badly. That's not the point. I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to sell well. However, a bad game is guaranteed to sell better than a bad game deserves if the developers throw in a bunch of recognizable faces and names.
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Thanks for the insight!!! But they can count on them to make them sell. I don't think Sony can.
Ha, okay. Save your sarcasm because you brought it up first. "I don't think Sony will be able to count on their properties to make the game good, or sell." So you don't think Sony can sell a game based on their characters. What are you basing that on? Is it the fact that they aren't as popular as Nintendo's. I disagree with that. Sony's IPs are plenty popular on their own. I don't see how Nintendo can sell a game based on brand awareness but Sony can't.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 11:29:16 AM
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Point being, the game will sell better with recognizable characters than it would without them. Recognizable brands are recognizable. What a novel concept.
It's not a question of whether it will sell better, it's a question of whether it will sell well enough to turn a profit.
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You just addressed your own issue with those games. Bad games typically sell badly.
DMTV and Wu Tang are not "bad". This sort of game ("party fighter?") is a hard market to crack if you're not Nintendo or like, the most popular anime ever made. People ask why nobody else tries to make a Smash killer, but there's actually a mountain of them and they're mostly flops.
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You're assuming Sony's Smash clone will suck and you're basing this on nothing.
Where did I say it will be bad? I'm hoping they hire Dave Sirlin and Mike Z's manbaby to design it and make the best fighting game ever made.
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It may very well suck and suck badly. That's not the point. I'm not saying the game is guaranteed to sell well. However, a bad game is guaranteed to sell better than a bad game deserves if the developers throw in a bunch of recognizable faces and names.
What, pray tell, is "the point?" I'm certainly not arguing for them to *not* use Sony characters. What I'm saying is that if it's the only selling point, it's gonna bomb.
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Save your sarcasm
Never :faust:
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So you don't think Sony can sell a game based on their characters. What are you basing that on? Is it the fact that they aren't as popular as Nintendo's. I disagree with that. Sony's IPs are plenty popular on their own. I don't see how Nintendo can sell a game based on brand awareness but Sony can't.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think Sony's characters have the popularity or appeal to the demographic that wants to buy a party fighter. It's certainly not something I would be quick to associate with the PS3.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on November 28, 2011, 12:27:11 PM
Okay, now I get what you're saying. The only thing I really disagree with here is I think this is a good investment for Sony. As long as the game isn't awful, I see no reason why it shouldn't perform well enough to turn a profit but I will agree to disagree.
On a related note, no one should be trying to make a Smash killer. They should worry about making an original name that plays very differently from Smash Bros. I'd certainly be more interested in the game because I don't need a Smash Bros. clone because I already own Smash Bros.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 12:28:28 PM
Why does the art style need to be standardized anyway? Have you ever seen the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit? In that movie there were cartoons interacting with live action people. Why can't there be a video game just like that? Leave the cell shaded characters as they are, and leave the realistic looking characters as they are. Just put them together but don't standardize their art.
I thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't want Sony to standardize the look of these characters, because the last time they tried it it turned out terribly. I just noted that they tried it before, and if they could do something that dumb before I could see them trying it again.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 28, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
I know. I'm just asking why does the art style have to be standardized in video games? Seems like that's how it always goes. Is there some technical reason that makes it difficult or impossible to pull off, or do video game makers just feel like this is how they have to do it and don't consider doing it any other way?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ian Sane on November 28, 2011, 01:53:05 PM
The graphics engine might be such to make clashing art styles difficult. If it's just polygon models with different textures on them it would probably be no problem but if there are extra tricks and such it might not work correctly. Lighting effects for example might look all goofy.
I'm just surprised that it took THIS long for Sony to go with an SSB ripoff. SSB came out in 1999! Maybe Sony was just waiting to develop some notable characters but I figured we would have seen the Crash Bandicoot SSB ripoff in early 2000.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 02:21:28 PM
While we're all here, I need to get this off my chest: Brawl was a letdown and I really, really want someone to make a new, good free-for-all fighter that will catch on.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 04:35:19 PM
=^O
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 05:13:26 PM
Just trying to stir the pot!! But honestly Brawl had a few pretty horrible design decisions and I don't think I even have to name names.
I mean, ****, people are making homemade patches for that game. Maybe there is a demand for a newer, better game...
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 28, 2011, 05:21:55 PM
Other than Samus being nerfed in the game, I thought it was just fine. Online was good for the first couple of months (before my Wii broke), when I came back a few months later it had gotten shitty. Subspace Emissary was meh, but not too bad. The actual gameplay was really good though. I would still be playing the game now, but when I re-bought the game I got a copy that had the problems that require me to send my Wii to Nintendo and I am too lazy to do that.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 05:43:25 PM
Well, I submit that the online play was consistently awful and oh god let's not even talk about the balance can of worms.
So I'm thinking... what would a new 4-player fighter need to be better than any before it? I got some ideas, but first, I'm curious as to what some of you guys think.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 28, 2011, 05:46:58 PM
I played dozens of hours of online its first month of release, and only had problems 2 times. I don't know what happened after that to screw up the online play because when I got my Wii back I couldn't even play 1 match online.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 28, 2011, 05:47:14 PM
Actually Smash Brothers games have dropped in quality ever since the first game.
The first game was brilliant. The second great, but had some flaws...mostly because the design didn't really improve much over the first game in features. Finally, Brawl was just not fun. Story mode is horrible, and the multiplayer was chaotic, but didn't feel as refined as in Melee...which was a letdown to me from the first.
Yes, the first game is the most basic, but it also feels the best. It just gets it right.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 05:49:15 PM
So I'm thinking... what would a new 4-player fighter need to be better than any before it? I got some ideas, but first, I'm curious as to what some of you guys think.
Well, I think Brawl showed that the stages have to be uniquely designed and full of all sorts of scenarios and obstacles that make it interesting. Brawl had way too many lame stages or ones that seemed designed for the "no items, Final Destination" crowd with their flat layouts and minimal interaction between the characters and the environment.
I think Brawl and Melee also showed that all the characters need to be unique with their own play styles and moves. I don't buy the excuse that the Smash Bros. games needed all those clones because they just "couldn't" play differently, not when Capcom's MvC3 series has a fairly large cast of characters and apparently none of them are clones, not even the ones added in the "Ultimate" version of that game.
I also think the Smash Bros. games have showed the desperate need for these games to have a good Single-Player component as well as a strong multiplayer one. Subspace Emissary wasn't horrible, but it was incredibly mediocre and I've never felt the desire to replay it once I finished it. And as my friends are rarely around and I don't play online multiplayer, there's only so much multiplayer vs. CPUs you can play before you just get bored of it all. I haven't touched Brawl in years.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
I played dozens of hours of online its first month of release, and only had problems 2 times. I don't know what happened after that to screw up the online play because when I got my Wii back I couldn't even play 1 match online.
I think maybe you were getting matched with people in your town early on, and later as the online player base thinned out, you only got matched with people further away?
Actually Smash Brothers games have dropped in quality ever since the first game.
The first game was brilliant. The second great, but had some flaws...mostly because the design didn't really improve much over the first game in features. Finally, Brawl was just not fun. Story mode is horrible, and the multiplayer was chaotic, but didn't feel as refined as in Melee...which was a letdown to me from the first.
Yes, the first game is the most basic, but it also feels the best. It just gets it right.
I'm agreeing here more than I thought I would. The production values and general shininess of the games have gotten better, yeah, but the actual design has shifted more towards AIDS garbage. Although I think Melee was probably better...
Well, I think Brawl showed that the stages have to be uniquely designed and full of all sorts of scenarios and obstacles that make it interesting. Brawl had way too many lame stages or ones that seemed designed for the "no items, Final Destination" crowd with their flat layouts and minimal interaction between the characters and the environment.
Yeah, but I really have to wonder, why did they keep Hyrule Temple? That **** is the worst
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 06:09:38 PM
Finally, Brawl was just not fun. Story mode is horrible, and the multiplayer was chaotic. . .
I personally thought the chaos was part of the fun. If you're not paying attention, you could get eaten by a giant fish. It's hilarious. To me, that's Smash Bros. The first game was like that due to the novelty of having all these mascots smack the piss out of eachother and then Jiggly Puff shows up. Melee was better because it had more stuff, but to me Brawl is better because it just gets absolutely Gwen Stefani bananas.
Brawl didn't lend itself well to being a serious fighter, but that shouldn't make it any less of a game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 06:14:51 PM
Oh yeah, **** unlocking characters and stages, that is the worst thing. In a predominantly multiplayer game, it just inconveniences people and gets in the way of fun. Other fighting game developers have figured this out already. If you must have unlockables, limit it to cosmetic and gallery type stuff, pleeeeeeeease.
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Brawl didn't lend itself well to being a serious fighter, but that shouldn't make it any less of a game.
You could say the same about Chutes & Ladders. I think Chutes & Ladders is a pretty bad game...
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 06:38:29 PM
Don't get me wrong, I like unlocking ****. That's fun too. When I said "serious" I meant in an overly competitive setting with the kind of people who logs dozens of hours just mastering a 72 hit combo in Street Fighter. I don't really like those people.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 06:45:04 PM
That makes you a bad person!
Also, the idea that a fightman game can't be fun for both casual button mashers and grizzled tournament jerks is a myth.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 06:46:48 PM
Yeah, but I really have to wonder, why did they keep Hyrule Temple? That **** is the worst
If you're talking about the map I think you're talking about (the Zelda stage from Melee, which was itself a modified stage from the N64 game), I liked that stage. The map is reasonably large without being too large, and there are enough different areas of it to have varying viable strategies. The two stages that do really bother me are the Twilight Princess stage (which is literally just a flat plane with a rider occasionally dropping a large timed bomb) and the Mother 3 stage (where the stage is soooooooo huge that you can't actually see your characters). There are other poor stages as well, but those are the two that really bother me.
And I like the wanton chaos in your average Brawl match. It keeps things interesting and makes the playing field even enough to make it feel like every player has a chance to win.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 06:50:20 PM
Also, the idea that a fightman game can't be fun for both casual button mashers and grizzled tournament jerks is a myth.
Not saying it can't, but I think one group is going to be a lot tougher on a game than the other group. I don't really like fighting games, but I love Smash Bros. Brawl had some stuff that annoyed me, but I'd never call it a letdown.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 06:59:11 PM
If you're talking about the map I think you're talking about (the Zelda stage from Melee, which was itself a modified stage from the N64 game), I liked that stage. The map is reasonably large without being too large, and there are enough different areas of it to have varying viable strategies.
All that goes out the window when you can perpetually run away due to the loop. There is only one viable strategy if you're playing to win. It's the worst stage.
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And I like the wanton chaos in your average Brawl match. It keeps things interesting and makes the playing field even enough to make it feel like every player has a chance to win.
Fast-paced shenanigans are great, but... fightman games should really discriminate on the basis of skill instead of giving babies welfare wins. I mean, it's fun for a whlie, but dumb gameplay hurts the longevity of the game, and I don't mean just for tournament jerks.
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Not saying it can't, but I think one group is going to be a lot tougher on a game than the other group.
Tough love, baby <3
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 28, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
I like Hyrule Temple well enough, but I mostly play stock matches so running away isn't really a viable strategy unless you're just trying to be a dick. And almost anything that isn't skill based can be avoided via the item switch and stage selection.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 07:17:10 PM
Like Insanolord, I pretty much only ever play Stock Matches on no time limit, so there's no point really to ever running away unless you're trying to get to an item.
As for chaotic matches "ruining things" for the "skilled player", the way I see it is that the stages are indiscriminate. On any given stage, if a Smash Ball pops up everyone has an opportunity to try to grab it. If the "baby" manages to grab it instead of the "skilled player", that doesn't say much about the "skilled player", does it? When an environmental hazard happens, everyone has the opportunity to avoid or get hit with it. So the fact that even the "skilled players" can get screwed over by the environment, or that "baby" players have a chance to come from behind keeps it interesting.
Besides, people who play Smash Bros. "to win" rather than to just "have fun" probably want to re-evaluate the fighting game they're playing. Smash Bros. has never seemed intended to be a "serious" game, and I don't think I'd like it if it ever did. We have enough of those.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 07:30:46 PM
As for chaotic matches "ruining things" for the "skilled player", the way I see it is that the stages are indiscriminate. On any given stage, if a Smash Ball pops up everyone has an opportunity to try to grab it. If the "baby" manages to grab it instead of the "skilled player", that doesn't say much about the "skilled player", does it? When an environmental hazard happens, everyone has the opportunity to avoid or get hit with it.
No. Items appear at random times/places, like next to player X and far away from player Y. Everyone does not have an opportunity to grab it. It's dicerolling. Oh, and slips.
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So the fact that even the "skilled players" can get screwed over by the environment, or that "baby" players have a chance to come from behind keeps it interesting.
I would say it makes it less interesting when you're removing skill and mindgames from the equation.
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Besides, people who play Smash Bros. "to win" rather than to just "have fun" probably want to re-evaluate the fighting game they're playing. Smash Bros. has never seemed intended to be a "serious" game, and I don't think I'd like it if it ever did. We have enough of those.
You know what? They have. Those players quit and went back to Melee or moved on to newer and better fighters.
And this is the myth coming up again. Brawl didn't have to be so stupid - you could take out really nasty random factors like slips and bob-ombs appearing right in front of you mid-swing and you would still have a great game for wet 'n wild casual mashfests as well as something you could have an elitist fighting game spacelord national competition in. They're not mutually exclusive!!
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 07:34:33 PM
No. Items appear at random times/places, like next to player X and far away from player Y. Everyone does not have an opportunity to grab it. It's dicerolling. Oh, and slips.
And those same items could randomly appear in front of you so you can dominate the less-skilled players. That's the nature of the system: everyone has an equal chance of getting rewarded or screwed-over by the system. And just because an item appears in front of you, that doesn't mean it's good or that you'll effectively make use of it. Skill still dictates the match.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 07:54:40 PM
Just so we're absolutely clear here. You're telling me that skill dictates a match where the computer randomly gives a person a game-winning item. Because everyone has an equal chance.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 28, 2011, 07:57:59 PM
Over the long haul everybody gets helped out and screwed over by the system equally. Individual matches can be dictated by it, though. Still, it's better than something like Mario Kart that gives you more and more help the more you suck.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 08:03:26 PM
Over the long haul everybody gets helped out and screwed over by the system equally. Individual matches can be dictated by it, though. Still, it's better than something like Mario Kart that gives you more and more help the more you suck.
Reminder that broodwars said "the" match. He will rue this day.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 08:03:58 PM
And I like the wanton chaos in your average Brawl match. It keeps things interesting and makes the playing field even enough to make it feel like every player has a chance to win.
Fast-paced shenanigans are great, but... fightman games should really discriminate on the basis of skill instead of giving babies welfare wins. I mean, it's fun for a whlie, but dumb gameplay hurts the longevity of the game, and I don't mean just for tournament jerks.
Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.
And this is the myth coming up again. Brawl didn't have to be so stupid - you could take out really nasty random factors like slips and bob-ombs appearing right in front of you mid-swing and you would still have a great game for wet 'n wild casual mashfests as well as something you could have an elitist fighting game spacelord national competition in. They're not mutually exclusive!!
Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs. I don't think Brawl was "dumbed down" so much as to make the game not fun. The way you feel about the game only serves to prove the myth.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 08:14:23 PM
Over the long haul everybody gets helped out and screwed over by the system equally. Individual matches can be dictated by it, though. Still, it's better than something like Mario Kart that gives you more and more help the more you suck.
Reminder that broodwars said "the" match. He will rue this day.
Oh good grief. This is exactly why I don't like "serious" Smash Bros. players: all this drama over nothing.
Yeah, I said "the match", and I meant "the match" as well as over the long-term. In my experience, everyone has a shot within a given match. You may get lucky and have a shot to take and use a powerful item, but that doesn't mean you'll use it effectively or that you'll even be able to reach it before the other players. You hand an unskilled player a power hammer, and they'll likely dance right off the stage trying to hit you with it. You hand an unskilled player a Final Smash, and they'll waste it.
A skilled player can keep away from a powerful item until they've either disarmed the opposing player or the item's time limit has run out. A skilled player can come back from a momentary setback caused by an item. Unless that means they're truly not "skilled" and the opposing player really isn't a "baby". Oh dear.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 08:17:05 PM
Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.
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Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs.
In the same post you say you find these elements fun but they also suck? You lost me.
Did I say item filled four player matches are unfun? No, I love that ****.
But without a bigger, better metagame to move onto, Brawl got old went unplayed, whereas certain other decade-old fighting games are still very fun and interesting to play. What I'm saying here is Brawl doesn't have to lose anything if the game was altered to not be absolutely retarded at a high level of play.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 28, 2011, 08:24:40 PM
I will say, there is definitely skill involved in getting to the items first even with random placement. Whenever we're playing Brawl and a Pokeball or Assist Trophy shows up, no matter where on screen it is, better than 9 times out of 10 my roommate John gets it, and he's definitely the most skilled player among us. And on the rare occasions I'm the one who gets it it's seemingly always Goldeen.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 08:32:56 PM
Right there. You keep talking about this "myth" but the divide is real. What you say makes the game broken or bad or whatever is what the rest of us find fun.
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Tripping sucks, but you can at least turn off bomb-ombs.
In the same post you say you find these elements fun but they also suck? You lost me.
Did I say item filled four player matches are unfun? No, I love that ****.
Tripping: sucks Random items at random times/locations: fun Stages randomly attacking you: also fun
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 08:37:19 PM
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Oh good grief. This is exactly why I don't like "serious" Smash Bros. players: all this drama over nothing.
I don't see any serious Smash players nor drama! I'm just trying to play armchair game designer here and it looks to me like you're trying to hang yourself or something.
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Yeah, I said "the match", and I meant "the match" as well as over the long-term. In my experience, everyone has a shot within a given match. You may get lucky and have a shot to take and use a powerful item, but that doesn't mean you'll use it effectively or that you'll even be able to reach it before the other players. You hand an unskilled player a power hammer, and they'll likely dance right off the stage trying to hit you with it. You hand an unskilled player a Final Smash, and they'll waste it.
A skilled player can keep away from a powerful item until they've either disarmed the opposing player or the item's time limit has run out. A skilled player can come back from a momentary setback caused by an item. Unless that means they're truly not "skilled" and the opposing player really isn't a "baby". Oh dear.
Unfortunately, reality does not jive with your statements here. You don't need to be especially good to end someone with a Smash Ball that just happened to spawn on your end of the stage. Maybe, like, a small child or something will fall off the stage like a god damned idiot, but a pro could easily get destroyed by someone merely competent in a tournament set because of dumb luck.
This is all hypothetical, by the way, because there's roughly zero tournaments for Brawl with items because it is a degenerate dicerolling game.
Now, without items... it's just the same, just not as horrendously bad, because of God Damned Slips. One player could lead a close match, slip, eat a smash and lose, not because he did anything wrong or the other player did anything right, but rather just because of a random number generator. This is bad, degenerate game design and it makes Brawl less interesting and appealing over any extended length of time. I'm pulling for someone to make a better game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 08:39:45 PM
Maybe it would simply things if I said random bullshit can be fun in casuals, but it is the opposite of fun in tournaments, and a Smash game *could* be made to accomodate both.
so every single one except Brawl I guess
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
Yeah, if you make the rules "final destination only, no items." Which is like giving the game a funectomy.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 08:44:25 PM
Unfortunately, reality does not jive with your statements here. You don't need to be especially good to end someone with a Smash Ball that just happened to spawn on your end of the stage.
Considering that you have to hit the Smash Ball something like 5-7 times to activate it and every hit sends it to another part of the screen, yes you do.
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Maybe, like, a small child or something will fall off the stage like a god damned idiot, but a pro could easily get destroyed by someone merely competent in a tournament set because of dumb luck.
In other words, if you're going up against a Pro with an item, his skill surpassed yours in getting to the item and using it first. So he beats you. And this is a problem?
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This is all hypothetical, by the way, because there's roughly zero tournaments for Brawl with items because it is a degenerate dicerolling game.
Ok, quick poll: does anyone besides this guy give a damn about how this party game fares in a tournament scene? Does anyone think the vast majority of Smash Bros. players do? I certainly don't.
This reminds me of what happened with BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger and it sequel Continuum Shift. In Calamity Trigger, Aksys smartly made the most complex special moves in the game easily performable through Right Stick shortcuts. Anyone could jump into BlazBlue and easily enjoy the things about the game that made it fun. But then the tourney players started bitching that anyone could do these button combos that only they could do before, and Aksys removed that feature from Continuum Shift.
The end result is that I can't enjoy the game now because I just lack the ability to type in button/stick sequences like that. And I didn't even play online! But my enjoyment of the game was destroyed by people who didn't like the "commoners" being able to compete with them on an issue that never should have been gated off like that to begin with.
That mentality of appealing to the hardcore tourney players is how fighting games have become a gated community where newcomers are not wanted. It's why I don't play them.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 08:55:40 PM
Considering that you have to hit the Smash Ball something like 5-7 times to activate it and every hit sends it to another part of the screen, yes you do.
No. You can pop it with 1 fresh charged Samus shot/DK punch, or 2 jumping C attacks. And not just Smash balls, but you can get ridiculously good statues/Pokemon that are on par with some final smashes. Do you even play this game?
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In other words, if you're going up against a Pro with an item, his skill surpassed yours in getting to the item and using it first. So he beats you. And this is a problem?
Yeah man he sure used a lot of skill when the legendary Pokemon fell in his hands
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Ok, quick poll: does anyone besides this guy give a damn about how this party game fares in a tournament scene? Does anyone think the vast majority of Smash Bros. do? I certainly don't.
There are a lot of people that care about competitive Smash (but not so much for Brawl other than weirdos...). See: smashboards.com and whatever year it was a main event at Evo.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 09:01:36 PM
No. You can pop it with 1 fresh charged Samus shot/DK punch, or 2 jumping C attacks. And not just Smash balls, but you can get ridiculously good statues/Pokemon that are on par with some final smashes. Do you even play this game?
I believe I already answered that question: not in well over 3 years. However, Samus's charge shot and DK's punch take a fairly long amount of time to charge up, more than enough to give an observant player time to reach you and knock you out of the way before you can use it. So you either just walk around with a fully charged special, or you have the skill to anticipate the ball and charge up your shot in time to fight off the other players. Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.
I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Smash Bros. like you do, to the extent where I obsess over them on message boards. I'm sure you are more skilled to me. The difference is, only you care about that. I play the game to have fun, and fun I have in the matches I've played.
Don't you have frames to go count somewhere or something?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 09:07:56 PM
Getting a little rude there, bud.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 09:11:40 PM
That's as far as I plan on going. I did regret the "life" comment so I tried to remove it, but it looks like S-U-P-E-R saw it first and now it's in stone. Just remember that I will rue this day I disagreed with a Smash Bros. tourney player!
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 09:11:54 PM
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I believe I already answered that question: not in well over 3 years. However, Samus's charge shot and DK's punch take a fairly long amount of time to charge up, more than enough to give an observant player time to reach you and knock you out of the way before you can use it. So you either just walk around with a fully charged special, or you have the skill to anticipate the ball and charge up your shot in time to fight off the other players. Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.
In case you forgot, you can start/stop charging those attacks at whim, and the optimal strategy is in fact to "walk around with a fully charged special" all the time.
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Even the 2 "jumping C attacks" is more than the flailing around of a novice player.
wat
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I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of Smash Bros. like you do, to the extent where I obsess over them on message boards. I have a life, after all. I'm sure you are more skilled to me. The difference is, only you care about that. I play the game to have fun, and fun I have in the matches I've played.
Don't you have frames to go count somewhere or something?
Now you're taking shots at me. You're a poor loser and a bad poster. Get banned.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Now you're taking shots at me. You're a poor loser and a bad poster. Get banned.
I think quite a few people would probably disagree with you on that. But whatever. Of the two of us, I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum because someone disagrees with me. Either way, I'm done with this argument. Just bear in mind that the mentality you've displayed is what will kill the Fighting Game genre, and it will kill the Smash Bros. fandom if it came to pass.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 28, 2011, 09:19:05 PM
I don't see brood saying anything ban worthy. He is speaking the truth about the game. Tournament players (for basically any game less than 10 years old, the only people playing those are people who tend to play in tournaments) are a very niche crowd, and I don't think it' a good idea for developers to cater to them at the expense of the average person who will play the game.
As far as Smash Bros. game in tournaments, it's laughable when they have rules like "no items" (or certain items turned off), certain stages banned, certain characters banned. It's no different than something like them saying you can't use guns in a FPS. The Smash games were designed with items and random stage events in mind. A good player can win even with this randomness.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Stogi on November 28, 2011, 09:38:10 PM
That was entertaining...
As someone who likes to bet on videogames (actually mostly anything, though rarely for money), I got to agree with SUPER. Not so much on the random items everywhere but it would definitely suck to accidentally slip and get smashed out of play.
Then again...after a long "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!" I probably would start laughing.
Anyway, even though I have Brawl I still end up playing the original the most. In fact, I still play the N64 more than any other system.
Oh and who care's if Sony is copying Smash Brothers. It's flattering.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on November 28, 2011, 09:41:02 PM
I would like to thank S-U-P-E-R for at last giving me something amusing enough to use as my signature. This is certainly a day I have rued.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 09:47:12 PM
Rereading this thread, it seems like people keep trying to put words in my mouth, along the lines of "Smash Bros is super unfun and you're not allowed to have fun unless you play in a tournament!!"
I keep saying, over and over, random zaniness *is* fun (fun also being subjective and I'm not going to tell anyone how to have fun!), but it would be even better if Smash *additionally* had tournament-friendly gameplay. Imagine for a second if Brawl just had a single *option* to turn slips/random-tournament-upsetting-elements off. It would take zero away from the game as-is, and we tournament jerks would get what we percieve to be a viable tournament game and all the fun that that entails. A strong tournament scene attracts lots of new players, not just to tournaments, but casuals and even people that just like to watch. This is a good thing and exactly what has happened with Street Fighter, Marvel, etc.
However, a fighter that has a very limited metagame does not last long and does not attract new players like this. Street Fighter II gets rereleased every couple years and there are still tournaments for that game. What about all the other games from the 90s that weren't as good and weren't competitively viable? Tournament elites didn't kill them; they killed themselves.
I'm still trying to kill fighting games forever so there's a couple of loose ends I still want to tie up.
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The Smash games were designed with items and random stage events in mind. A good player can win even with this randomness.
He *can* win, yes, but *will* he? Tournament matches are short enough that a random trip (or stage trap or whatever...) can upset the match. Can you really say the guy who won is the best if he really won just by luck?
BTW broodwars, the rue-this-day comment was meant to be a very lighthearted nod to Galactus in MVC3 and it delights me greatly that you put it in your signature. But I still think your views on random item drops are literally insane. :faust:
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 09:50:40 PM
Also I think if I could actually kill the Smash Bros fandom I would do it
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 28, 2011, 10:00:29 PM
This is the reason why I hate game shows like Wheel of Fortune but enjoy watching Jeopardy. I've seen incredibly smart people on Wheel of Fortune lose just because of bad luck and how the wheel spins, but Jeopardy on the other hand has very little to do with luck. On Jeopardy the smartest person wins 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 10:03:17 PM
You guys really didn't need to wait until this page to start agreeing with my smart and handsome posts (http://i.imgur.com/anZCg.gif)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 28, 2011, 10:28:47 PM
I think its great that Nintendo's games are being used in Tournaments. It reminds me of that movie the Wiz.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 28, 2011, 10:31:43 PM
The Wizard. Haha, I think that movie was my inspiration. Going to tournaments is far and away the most fun I've had playing video games. not Smash tournaments, I swear!
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 10:49:25 PM
So, killing trips is obvious, but what would you do to items to "balance" the game more? Other than just turn them off.
On Jeopardy the smartest person wins 99% of the time.
And the 1% was the one time where the computer won.
There is some randomness in Jeopardy in the categories and Daily Doubles and how quickly you buzz in. If things are close enough a slightly less smart player could pull ahead because of some luck. But the difference with wheel of fortune and a lot of other game shows is that luck is a much larger factor.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 28, 2011, 11:11:04 PM
On Jeopardy the smartest person wins 99% of the time.
And the 1% was the one time where the computer won.
There is some randomness in Jeopardy in the categories and Daily Doubles and how quickly you buzz in. If things are close enough a slightly less smart player could pull ahead because of some luck. But the difference with wheel of fortune and a lot of other game shows is that luck is a much larger factor.
I was just kidding and referring to the time Watson destroyed Ken Jennings.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: UncleBob on November 28, 2011, 11:26:10 PM
Wow. All I have to say is stay away from BoardGameGeek.com's Monopoly forum if you want to debate luck vs. skill...
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 28, 2011, 11:31:17 PM
I honestly don't think Ken Jennings is necessarily the best champion Jeopardy ever had. He showed up at a great time because it was just after the show adopted the new rule to allow champions to be on the show over and over again until they were defeated. It used to be that when someone won on the show that was it and they didn't come back the next night. So there were decades and decades (the show started in 1964 according to Wikipedia) where there were champions who MIGHT have went on as long of a winning streak as Ken did, or even longer, but they couldn't because they weren't allowed to. So who really knows?
Oh, and yeah I meant the Fred Savage movie Wizard. I keep getting those two movies mixed up because the names are so similar. ;)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Morari on November 28, 2011, 11:37:50 PM
Wow. All I have to say is stay away from BoardGameGeek.com's Monopoly forum if you want to debate luck vs. skill...
That's true for any of those "toy aisle" type of games. A game that is dictated entirely by dice rolls is no fun. There's no skill nor strategy involved. You might as well set it to auto pilot and come back after a few hours to see who has "won".
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 28, 2011, 11:40:40 PM
You still have choices to make. It's not like craps.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 29, 2011, 12:24:07 AM
Monopoly isn't dictated entirely by dice rolls. There are choices to make and risks to take. I'd say its a good 50/50 balance between luck and skill. You can choose to buy properties versus building up existing ones, or whatever.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: that Baby guy on November 29, 2011, 02:28:46 AM
Reading over pages in this thread is just sad. My summary of the argument:
Most people:
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Smash Bros. is meant to be played in one way, and only one way: The way I find most fun. It was designed that way, with my way in mind. Anyone who plays it any other way is playing it wrong.
Ty:
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Why not let people play the game the way they want to play the game? If people want to take it to a tournament, why not allow some rules modifications? There's already options to change items and stages, and most people like that. What's wrong with the versatility of control and a game system designed well enough that it holds up in competitions for years?
Since when did it become a big issue for a few people to play a game the way they want to play it? Smash Bros. tournaments literally do nothing to hurt the game. All they want are the options to adjust more of the game, much like how there's time mode, stock mode, stamina mode, item select, character select, and so on and so forth. They want more of that, and they want the game to be as well constructed in execution as Melee was. Find me a Smash Bros. fan who's opposed to that and I'll point a finger at someone who literally must be crazy.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 29, 2011, 12:02:01 PM
So, killing trips is obvious, but what would you do to items to "balance" the game more? Other than just turn them off.
Well, you know, just retune the character balance a little. I also think the game would benefit a bit from little things like putting the stage select before the character select.
An idea I was playing around with in my head - a tournament mode with items, where items appeared symmetrically or after a visible 5 second clock+shadow or something. I don't know how it'd stand up to super hardcore scrutiny but it seems like a fun way to have items without the I-won-the-lottery factor.
Something for Sony's or some new 'Smash' game to look into?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on November 29, 2011, 04:28:26 PM
I feel like that would create a sort of king-of-the-hill type battle everytime an item came up. It'd still be like winning the lottery, only you'll be fighting for your ticket.
And the stage select before the character select? I always knew you were a bit crazy. That's seems like something that could easily be an option you could switch on.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ceric on November 29, 2011, 04:44:00 PM
Just briefly reading through this page of responses. I think it safe to assume that Hungry Hungry Hippos(HHH) is the Ultimate Game because it requires timing and reflexes without leaving your couch.
Since a fighting game can't have the Simplistic Elegance of HHH having tuning options for the game modes would makes for interesting scenarios. All those crazy rules you and your friends had to enforce on the honor system could be made a reality with Super Tuning! Gran-Tourismo level of tuning for your fighter.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 29, 2011, 06:50:39 PM
There is also rock em sock em robots. That was the fighting game people played back before there was Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on November 29, 2011, 07:30:26 PM
Actually Smash Brothers games have dropped in quality ever since the first game.
The first game was brilliant. The second great, but had some flaws...mostly because the design didn't really improve much over the first game in features. Finally, Brawl was just not fun. Story mode is horrible, and the multiplayer was chaotic, but didn't feel as refined as in Melee...which was a letdown to me from the first.
Yes, the first game is the most basic, but it also feels the best. It just gets it right.
This is exactly it for me. I liked Brawl at first, but the more I played it, the more flaws I discovered, and now I can no longer stand the game. Melee is still my favourite of the three mostly due to the content, though the first game has the best style and pacing.
To me Brawl feels like Sakurai lost his original vision from the first game. It's just so different. I'd like the next game to be more like the original, but considering that Sakurai is still involved, I'm not even going to bother hoping that it will turn out to be a competent game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 30, 2011, 11:44:53 PM
What I realized about the Smash Brothers franchise is that the additions they added didn't always enhance the gameplay...but actually hindered it somewhat.
Why I think the first is better goes back to how much fun my friends had with that game compared to the sequels. The first game was the go to multiplayer game if we weren't playing Perfect Dark. I liked Bomberman, but it didn't hold the appeal. The levels were simple, but worked. They didn't feel like there was too much movement or unfair traps...and overall enjoyable to play. The speed of the game was slower which allowed for players to take in the action easier. Let's face it all the smash brothers games could get chaotic, but the speed and simplicity of the first allowed it to be reasonable for all players, beginners and experts, which just made it more fun.
Melee comes out and really takes the formula and adds alot of depth to the game. Adding more throws, shield control, reversals, characters, items, everything just got bigger...but overall it felt like the same game. So why isn't this the go to game for Smash Brothers...for many it is. But for me, the speed and overall chaos of items and level design killed the experience. My friends still enjoyed playing the game, but often I found myself cursing the fighting system, and just played against people randomly hitting buttons winning. This game suffered from adding too much stuff without properly balancing and thinking about the changes and how it effects the players.
To me if Melee had better level design, item balance, and most importantly the speed of the original with some of the other enhancements it would have been better.
Finally, Brawl just continued the add more...but the chaos of Melee was already too much. Now stage hazards, even more items, assist trophies, pokemon, everything made the otherall experience worse...and its because the sum of all the additions made it worse than better.
Sometimes it is good to keep things simple. That doesn't mean you don't add new things, but you are careful with them. All 3 of the Smash games are still better than any other Smash clone game out there, the formula of King of the Hill gameplay just works for this type of game. So despite the complaints, I still feel the series is better than anything else outthere.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on December 01, 2011, 01:38:27 AM
if only they could release a compilation game called multi-player brilliance. Smash Bros. Goldeneye, Bomberman, Soul Calibur, mario kart, wii sports. You would never have to get up to change the disc, and you would go through less menus then virtual console.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Stogi on December 01, 2011, 01:44:24 AM
I always thought Melee was the better game, but I have more fun with the original.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 01, 2011, 01:51:49 AM
Stogi: You know technically I would agree with you...but that more fun has to count for something.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on December 01, 2011, 01:54:15 AM
yeah, i only rented the first smash bros, it was fun, but only played it briefly with my brother. The general consensus at the time was it was a not serious fighting game genre entry. However, when Melee came out it seemed much much more serious of a game and we just played it non stop for months.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on December 01, 2011, 09:01:29 AM
I like the additions and refinements to the gameplay introduced in Melee. It gave the series more depth without being complicated. Brawl didn't add much to the formula. It was mostly just Melee masquerading as a new game except you spent far more time fighting the stage hazards. I would go as far as to say that most of the new stages in Brawl were flat-out fucking awful. It went from "Let me throw you into Charmander" to "Oh Jesus Christ on a crutch, Palkia is mirroring the stage again... and now I'm dead."
That said, I'd like to see the development team strip down some of the mayhem and go back to the basics of the original or even Melee where the stage hazards weren't so intrusive. They spiced up the stages but the focus was still on fighting. The game was still chaotic and random and fun when the stages weren't so meddlesome.
And by the way, I hate vertically scrolling stages. I didn't think it was possible to make a bad Jungle Beat stage but Sakurai and co pulled it off.
Anyway, my hope for this Sony Smash Bros-esque game is that it aspires to be more than Smash Bros with Kratos and Nathan Drake. I he my doubts which is why I can't seem to care about this game despite it being further along than the next Smash Bros. game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on December 01, 2011, 06:16:43 PM
Adrock: True. I think if you take all the fighting enhancements of Melee. Then strip away some of the assist trophies and Pokemon, and slow the speed down to where it is more of a dance than a sprint, I think you would have the perfect Smash game.
Sure the levels need to be done right. Melee had good levels, but remember some of the Melee levels were chaotic and not played as much...I don't know why they created more like that in Brawl. I guess they really wanted variety...but it was awful variety.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Caterkiller on December 01, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
I love playing Smash Bros in a tourny style, people who don't even consider than an option for people like me are just greedy but heads.
Melee was just too fast for me, way to fast I could not enjoy it after a while. Brawl slowed things down which made it much more playable for me, much like the first, but I later found some characters had amazing advantages over others. Sakurai adjusting the character atributes all his own is the result of that, the a-hole.
As many characters as they can get in is great, especially if real clones like ganondorf can get a more unique moveset. Stages that are wacky and flatter stages with a few platforms are great! Everything can't be off the wall nuts. If we got 50 stages in the next game I would love for 10 of them to be fairly flat with an extra plat form here or there with very little stage interaction. I don't mind new items or anything of that nature since that can be toned down as little or as much as one wants.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on December 01, 2011, 09:47:37 PM
i liked melee because it was fast, and thats where things went crazy. My friend has a slight cognitive advantage over other people, he has tremendous relfexes, and its something that should be tested, i think he has straight up snake vision.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on December 02, 2011, 01:56:52 AM
Are you sure he isn't reading you like a book? hehe.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Stogi on December 02, 2011, 07:10:30 PM
I loved melee mostly for the dodge maneuver.
It didn't occur to me how much I loved it till I dodged a smash and a super shot by Samus at the same time. Awesome.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on December 03, 2011, 01:25:56 AM
Are you sure he isn't reading you like a book? hehe.
no, it took me a lot of effort to get to where he was and beat him, I couldn't maintain that mental sharpness. I would have to do cocaine or something.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Stogi on December 03, 2011, 05:06:13 AM
That sounds like the worst excuse to do blow.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on December 03, 2011, 05:20:20 AM
that would be an interesting psa
guy stares into the camera, scratches his neck. I wanted to be good at smash bros. I wanted an edge. I wanted to compete. I needed to increase my heartrate so that time slowed down. Long story short is I'll suck your dick if you buy me some crack.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 03, 2011, 03:52:49 PM
LOL
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 07, 2011, 10:37:29 AM
More info from PGN http://paulgalenetwork.com/home/2011/12/06/huge-title-fight-update-now-with-more-jak-daxter-lair-dragons-and-third-qa/
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 27, 2012, 06:30:53 AM
More info can be found at: http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/04/26/see-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-in-action/ (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/04/26/see-playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-in-action/) http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/27/playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-smashes-through-the-playsta/ (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/27/playstation-all-stars-battle-royale-smashes-through-the-playsta/)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2012, 07:47:08 AM
and it's being developed by SuperBot Entertainment (never heard of them either).
Of course not. Did you even watch the trailer? The first thing the game director, Omar Kendall, says is that Superbot Entertainment was created specifically to make this game. More importantly, does it even matter that they're new? A bunch of nobodies in Texas resurrected Metroid 10 years ago...
Anyway, this is about what I expected when news of the game first leaked though the gameplay seems to point more towards decreasing life bars rather than increasing damage to throw an enemy off the stage. This game seems to have less platforming than Smash Bros. Honestly, I think that's what makes Smash Bros. more interesting. It's not a straight fighting game. I'll wait fore more info but with RE6 and Wii U coming out at the end of this year, I probably won't get this on release day.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 27, 2012, 07:49:07 AM
Of course not. Did you even watch the trailer? The first thing the game director, Omar Kendall, says is that Superbot Entertainment was created specifically to make this game.
So that makes SuperBot a first-party Sony-owned developer?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2012, 07:56:16 AM
Possibly. Superbot Entertainment is likely 1st or 2nd party. For comparison's sake, Retro Studios wasn't wholly owned by Nintendo until they bought Jeff Spangenberg's stock in the company.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on April 27, 2012, 07:56:43 AM
Some games Omar Kendall has worked on: UFC Undisputed Backyard Wrestling X-Men Next Dimension Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks
edit: but who is the combat designer? That's the important part!
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 27, 2012, 08:19:48 AM
Possibly. Superbot Entertainment is likely 1st or 2nd party. For comparison's sake, Retro Studios wasn't wholly owned by Nintendo until they bought Jeff Spangenberg's stock in the company.
Who is that?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2012, 08:43:54 AM
Really? Click: Jeff Spangenberg (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jeff+Spangenberg)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Sarail on April 27, 2012, 09:31:22 AM
Actually, guys... those aren't even life bars. I hate the direction I'm seeing this game go in, as it's not going to be anywhere near as hot as Smash Bros. is. You don't build up damage on your opponent. Instead, you attack to build up a "special/finisher" meter. And once you build it up to a certain level (1, 2, or 3), you can unleash an attack to obliterate your opponent. This is more of a race to "grab a Smash Ball" than it is being skillful by dishing out damage to ultimately land a Smash attack to knock your opponent out to kingdom come.
No thank you.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2012, 10:05:18 AM
I don't know. There's quite a bit of strategy involved in building up a meter to unleash different levels of attack.
I'm willing to give the game a chance because I like Sony's characters and I like Smash Bros. However, I would have preferred Sony not play it so close to Smash Bros. which already has a few copy cats. What Sony should have done is create a game very different from Smash Bros. to not only justify its existence but give it greater appeal. I have Smash Bros., do I really need another game like it? I'll stick with the original. And if Sony insisted on basing Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale on another videogame, using Power Stone, rather than Smash Bros., as the basis would have made the game stand out more. Capcom hasn't released a brand new game in the series since Power Stone 2 in 2000. There aren't a lot of games like it.
On a side note, a commenter on Kotaku suggested that the final boss be a Giant Enemy Crab and should Sony/Superbot Entertainment comply, I'd be far more interested in this game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on April 27, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
Did Thrill Kill/Wu Tang on PS1 have a similar KO condition or did it just have life bars? I forget...
Visually, yeah, it looks a lot like Smash, but it seems there's no ring-outs. That's already a bit different gameplay-wise.
Quote
I have Smash Bros., do I really need another game like it?
Yes, because Smash Bros sucks :smug:
I'm kind of thinking... are they trying to make a KO system that prevents people from ganging up (in ffa) or playing kingmaker? Can that be viable?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2012, 01:12:28 PM
Having watched the video reveal, I'm conflicted about this game. On the one hand, Sony does have some cool characters (like Sly, my favorite of theirs and he's already confirmed as a playable character) and I could enjoy a different company's take on the Smash Bros. formula. I like that the 6 characters revealed so far apparently play very differently from one another. On the other hand, just looking at the footage I'm not sure that Sony "gets" why Smash Bros. is great, and the level design looks pretty poor; relatively flat; and small. It's like Sony is trying to cater to the tourney losers who demand that they rain over everyone else's fun with "No Items, Final Destination."
I'll remain cautiously optimistic about this game, but companies have tried cloning Smash Bros. before and no one's succeeded yet.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Morari on April 27, 2012, 02:03:17 PM
Sega's characters would make for a much better game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 27, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
So there are no ring-outs in this game? So the whole point is to build up a "super meter" and then unleash a KO-ing attack? Sounds like Smash Bros. to me ("super meter" = damage percentage).
I just want them to change that terrible name and logo. "PS AS BR" is too long and convoluted. And the logo looks even more generic than Sports Champions. Sheesh, Sony, get a better logo designer or something.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2012, 05:00:06 PM
A major part of Smash Bros. is the possibility to back onto the stage when knocked out. If that aspect is not included Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale, that changes the dynamic of the game.
And I presume most people will shorten the name to Battle Royale or BR. Even Nintendo fans can't be bother to say Super Smash Bros. Melee/Brawl , it's shortened to Melee, Brawl, Smash Bros. or even just Smash.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on April 27, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
Sometimes I even just say 'Sm.'
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 27, 2012, 06:43:19 PM
The title of this thread should be changed now that we know the true name of Sony's Smash Bros. clone.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: MagicCow64 on April 27, 2012, 07:08:49 PM
It's like Sony is trying to cater to the tourney losers who demand that they rain over everyone else's fun with "No Items, Final Destination."
I'll remain cautiously optimistic about this game, but companies have tried cloning Smash Bros. before and no one's succeeded yet.
Ha, oh man, I met some people last year who were into Smash Bros., and I went over to their place to spend an evening drinking beer and playing Brawl. But the first thing they did was turn off all items and stages except for Final Destination. It was boring as ****. And I was treated like a leper for suggesting that this was overly restrictive and hyper repetitive. If that's tourney play I never want to encounter it again. To top it all off, these dudes used the C stick like nobody's business. Now that's horseshit.
As for the Sony game, I have a hard time seeing this taking off. Granted, I'm not a fan of their menagerie of focus-group tested exclusive characters, but I don't feel like there's quite the same bursting desire to see these icons matched up as there was for Nintendo, Sega, Tekken/Streetfighter, or Marvel/Capcom.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on April 27, 2012, 09:06:24 PM
Who the **** cares if they use the c stick? Stop bitching.
Thank you. God, Smash players are so elitest. They think everyone who doesn't use the GameCube controller doesn't know how to play the game.
"Dude, yu sux cuz U use teh Wiimote! GC contruller FTW!"
Does it really matter how you play the game? Plenty of people use the Wii Remote or Classic Controller, and they've mastered the game in their own way.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 30, 2012, 06:11:52 PM
Today's Penny Arcade stick it this game pretty good: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/04/30 (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/04/30)
Looking at their forums I'm going to blatantly steal the point someone on their made. He pointed out that with SSB, Nintendo was taking highly recognizable IP like Mario, Zelda and Pokemon to not only launch a new series in SSB but also boost the profile of their lesser known IP like F-Zero and Earthbound through association.
The problem with Sony is that they don't have any IP that's really recognizable on the level of Nintendo's top IP. So instead of using their highly recognizable IP to launch a successful new series, they're hoping a clone of a popular game will take off and increase the profile of their IP. It's kind of pathetic actually. Realistically there isn't much demand for this. Sony's IP is not popular enough that people would demand this sort of game from them.
Thinking about it SSB has been a really effective marketting tool for Nintendo. Fire Emblem's debut in North America largely came about because of the Fire Emblem characters in Melee generating interest here while Pit's appearance in Brawl helped generate interest in the revival of Kid Icarus.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on April 30, 2012, 06:23:39 PM
Watching the videos, it really drives home an issue I had with this game as a concept a long time ago: these characters are all from franchises with radically different art styles and demographics. They don't look like they belong together in this game, unlike in Smash Bros. where it looks like the characters could largely have a common point in origin.
And why did they announce the game with these characters, anyway? Fat Princess? Colonel Radec (a character who was only in Killzone 2 [and a brief cameo in Killzone 3's flashback intro] and was summarily killed off)? Parappa the Rapper? Really? You really want to have those three characters out at the start to hype your game over...say...Jak and Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, Sackboy, etc? I can at least understand why Sweet Tooth is there, because a new Twisted Metal just came out a few months back. Kratos is the most popular Sony character. Sly Cooper is just awesome and has a new game coming this Fall. Sony chose to unveil this game with at least half the characters being ones that modern Sony gamers probably don't know very well (if at all), instead of the beloved and well-known characters they do have.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on April 30, 2012, 07:14:38 PM
They don't look like they belong together in this game, unlike in Smash Bros. where it looks like the characters could largely have a common point in origin.
I disagree. Most of Nintendo's characters don't look like they belong in the same game. Mario's head is 700% the size of Link's. Kirby doesn't even really have a body. His face is his body. And he's bright pink. That said, I don't really think that's Sony's problem. These crossover type games work in spite of the mismatched characters.
I'm not sure anyone really wants a Smash Bros. game with Sony characters. The game is practically a Smash Bros. type game on almost every level and it features far less popular characters to boot. Nintendo could sell a Mario only or Zelda only fighting game; except they didn't. They put them all together and made a juggernaut. Had Sony done something very different from Smash Bros. (like copying Power Stone instead, as previously mentioned), they probably would have gotten a better reaction.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 30, 2012, 07:54:05 PM
Today's Penny Arcade stick it this game pretty good: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/04/30 (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/04/30)
Looking at their forums I'm going to blatantly steal the point someone on their made. He pointed out that with SSB, Nintendo was taking highly recognizable IP like Mario, Zelda and Pokemon to not only launch a new series in SSB but also boost the profile of their lesser known IP like F-Zero and Earthbound through association.
The problem with Sony is that they don't have any IP that's really recognizable on the level of Nintendo's top IP. So instead of using their highly recognizable IP to launch a successful new series, they're hoping a clone of a popular game will take off and increase the profile of their IP. It's kind of pathetic actually. Realistically there isn't much demand for this. Sony's IP is not popular enough that people would demand this sort of game from them.
Thinking about it SSB has been a really effective marketting tool for Nintendo. Fire Emblem's debut in North America largely came about because of the Fire Emblem characters in Melee generating interest here while Pit's appearance in Brawl helped generate interest in the revival of Kid Icarus.
Actually, that's a great idea for Sony. Smash Bros. helped increase the popularity of Kid Icarus (Pit) and Fire Emblem, so why wouldn't Sony's version do the same for their franchises?
If this PS All-Stars game is a hit, then it would be a great marketing tool for their lesser-known franchises.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 30, 2012, 07:57:49 PM
Watching the videos, it really drives home an issue I had with this game as a concept a long time ago: these characters are all from franchises with radically different art styles and demographics. They don't look like they belong together in this game, unlike in Smash Bros. where it looks like the characters could largely have a common point in origin.
And why did they announce the game with these characters, anyway? Fat Princess? Colonel Radec (a character who was only in Killzone 2 [and a brief cameo in Killzone 3's flashback intro] and was summarily killed off)? Parappa the Rapper? Really? You really want to have those three characters out at the start to hype your game over...say...Jak and Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, Sackboy, etc? I can at least understand why Sweet Tooth is there, because a new Twisted Metal just came out a few months back. Kratos is the most popular Sony character. Sly Cooper is just awesome and has a new game coming this Fall. Sony chose to unveil this game with at least half the characters being ones that modern Sony gamers probably don't know very well (if at all), instead of the beloved and well-known characters they do have.
Because this game celebrates the history of all things PlayStation, regardless if they are well-known or not. Would Smash Bros. be the same if it only features instantly-recognizeable characters like Mario, Link, and Pokemon? Nintendo added their lesser-known characters for fan service, and to show the world their history, that they haven't forgotten their roots.
What is wrong with Sony doing the same?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on April 30, 2012, 08:57:48 PM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on April 30, 2012, 09:40:24 PM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Crash and Spyro were never owned by Sony. Sony just published the Crash and Spyro games for Universal Interactive (Crash and Spyro's previous owners).
Once the PS1 was nearing the end of it's life, Naughty Dog and Insomniac decided to move on from Crash and Spyro. Universal took the two series over, handing them off to various developers over the years. Universal Interactive then merged with Vivendi, forming Vivendi Universal. Vivendi Universal was later bought by Activision, forming Activision-Blizzard.
After all this, Activision is now the owner of Crash and Spyro.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 30, 2012, 09:46:05 PM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Crash and Spyro were never owned by Sony. Sony just published the Crash and Spyro games for Universal Interactive (Crash and Spyro's previous owners).
Once the PS1 was nearing the end of it's life, Naughty Dog and Insomniac decided to move on from Crash and Spyro. Universal took the two series over, handing them off to various developers over the years. Universal Interactive then merged with Vivendi (forming Vivendi Universal). Vivendi Universal was later bought by Activision, forming Activision-Blizzard.
After all this, Activision is now the owner of Crash and Spyro.
Close. Activision didn't buy Vivendi Games. They merged (if you want to get technical, Vivendi was the leading company in the deal as Activision Blizzard is owned by Vivendi SA.
Basically, Vivendi bought Univeral Studios and formed Vivendi Universal Games. After Vivendi sold Universal, they changed the game studio's name to Vivendi Games. In 2007, Activision and Vivendi Games merged and became Activision Blizzard (with the new company owned by Vivendi SA).
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on April 30, 2012, 09:49:22 PM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Crash and Spyro were never owned by Sony. Sony just published the Crash and Spyro games for Universal Interactive (Crash and Spyro's previous owners).
Once the PS1 was nearing the end of it's life, Naughty Dog and Insomniac decided to move on from Crash and Spyro. Universal took the two series over, handing them off to various developers over the years. Universal Interactive then merged with Vivendi, forming Vivendi Universal. Vivendi Universal was later bought by Activision, forming Activision-Blizzard.
After all this, Activision is now the owner of Crash and Spyro.
Nice history legend. You just went against your own opinion.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 01, 2012, 12:25:03 AM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Crash and Spyro were never owned by Sony. Sony just published the Crash and Spyro games for Universal Interactive (Crash and Spyro's previous owners).
Once the PS1 was nearing the end of it's life, Naughty Dog and Insomniac decided to move on from Crash and Spyro. Universal took the two series over, handing them off to various developers over the years. Universal Interactive then merged with Vivendi, forming Vivendi Universal. Vivendi Universal was later bought by Activision, forming Activision-Blizzard.
After all this, Activision is now the owner of Crash and Spyro.
Nice history legend. You just went against your own opinion.
What? I was simply telling you why Sony isn't the owners of Crash and Spyro, and they technically never were.
Sony has:
Uncharted
Resistance (created by Insomniac, published by Sony)
Ratchet & Clank (created by Insomniac, published by Sony)
LittleBigPlanet
ICO / Shadow of the Colossus
God of War
inFamous
Patapon
Fat Princess
Syphon Filter
Flow / Flower / Journey (all 3 games created by "thatgamecompany", but published by Sony)
LocoRoco
MediEvil
Twisted Metal
PaRappa the Rapper
Jet Moto (an old PS1 series)
Gran Turismo
Cool Boarders (an old PS1 series)
Sly Cooper
Jak & Daxter
The Last of Us (the new game from Naughty Dog, the developers of Uncharted and Jak & Daxter)
WipeOut
ModNation Racers
The Getaway
So yeah, Sony has plenty to choose from.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 01, 2012, 12:56:47 AM
Sony has plenty to choose from, but I agree Sony doesn't have the same characters with history and roots that Nintendo has. Almost everyone of Nintendo's beloved franchises started on the NES. That is adding over 10 years of history to anything Sony has.
Not only that Nintendo has characters that are widely recognized around the world and associated with Nintendo. Some of these characters are more recognizable than Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. (Mario and Link) Sony doesn't have that at all.
I don't think people see Papa the Rappa and think of Sony or Playstation. I wouldn't see the Kill Zone characters and immediately assume, oh that is a Sony character. I think although there is history with the Playstation. It is far from deep. In fact, I think it is fairly shallow, because Playstation wasn't really known for great 1st and 2nd party games until the Playstation 2.
Now, this fact doesn't mean the game will fail...if the game is fun it has a great chance of succeeding. What it means is this isn't a grand slam instant win game...like Smash Bros was going to be...or The Avengers movie. They don't have an All Star cast that is going to bring the money in despite how good or bad the game is.
And I do believe Nintendo's characters fit more in the same universe because despite being of different art styles they are mostly all cartoon characters that do not focus on realism...except for a few. Where many of Playstation's characters have a realistic vibe to the game...or a specific art style.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 01, 2012, 01:56:29 AM
Sony has plenty to choose from, but I agree Sony doesn't have the same characters with history and roots that Nintendo has. Almost everyone of Nintendo's beloved franchises started on the NES. That is adding over 10 years of history to anything Sony has.
Not only that Nintendo has characters that are widely recognized around the world and associated with Nintendo. Some of these characters are more recognizable than Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. (Mario and Link) Sony doesn't have that at all.
I don't think people see Papa the Rappa and think of Sony or Playstation. I wouldn't see the Kill Zone characters and immediately assume, oh that is a Sony character. I think although there is history with the Playstation. It is far from deep. In fact, I think it is fairly shallow, because Playstation wasn't really known for great 1st and 2nd party games until the Playstation 2.
Now, this fact doesn't mean the game will fail...if the game is fun it has a great chance of succeeding. What it means is this isn't a grand slam instant win game...like Smash Bros was going to be...or The Avengers movie. They don't have an All Star cast that is going to bring the money in despite how good or bad the game is.
And I do believe Nintendo's characters fit more in the same universe because despite being of different art styles they are mostly all cartoon characters that do not focus on realism...except for a few. Where many of Playstation's characters have a realistic vibe to the game...or a specific art style.
Well that is true. Sony doesn't do a good job at marketing their own franchises and characters. People usually assume they're just more 3rd-party franchises. It seems Sony doesn't really have an "identity" as a 1st-party publisher.
What about Microsoft? We all associate Halo as a Microsoft franchise, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on May 01, 2012, 02:14:55 AM
Because Sony doesn't have "roots". They have Crash...and that's about it.
Crash and Spyro were never owned by Sony. Sony just published the Crash and Spyro games for Universal Interactive (Crash and Spyro's previous owners).
Once the PS1 was nearing the end of it's life, Naughty Dog and Insomniac decided to move on from Crash and Spyro. Universal took the two series over, handing them off to various developers over the years. Universal Interactive then merged with Vivendi, forming Vivendi Universal. Vivendi Universal was later bought by Activision, forming Activision-Blizzard.
After all this, Activision is now the owner of Crash and Spyro.
Nice history legend. You just went against your own opinion.
What? I was simply telling you why Sony isn't the owners of Crash and Spyro, and they technically never were.
Sony has:
Uncharted
Resistance (created by Insomniac, published by Sony)
Ratchet & Clank (created by Insomniac, published by Sony)
LittleBigPlanet
ICO / Shadow of the Colossus
God of War
inFamous
Patapon
Fat Princess
Syphon Filter
Flow / Flower / Journey (all 3 games created by "thatgamecompany", but published by Sony)
LocoRoco
MediEvil
Twisted Metal
PaRappa the Rapper
Jet Moto (an old PS1 series)
Gran Turismo
Cool Boarders (an old PS1 series)
Sly Cooper
Jak & Daxter
The Last of Us (the new game from Naughty Dog, the developers of Uncharted and Jak & Daxter)
WipeOut
ModNation Racers
The Getaway
So yeah, Sony has plenty to choose from.
Not all of these can be used. From a design standpoint, some of these just don't work well.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 01, 2012, 02:20:44 AM
Not all of these can be used. From a design standpoint, some of these just don't work well.
Your opinion, and I'm sure the developers can tweak the characters to make them work. After all, we got ROB and Olimar (the dude with Pikmin) in Smash Bros. Brawl, and no one thought they would work.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 01, 2012, 02:29:20 AM
ROB is a robot, so he easily could work. Gran Turismo would not, there are no actual characters in the game (just vehicles). Same problem with Wipeout and ModNation Racers. Some of the others have similar problems.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 01, 2012, 02:30:40 AM
I am not saying Microsoft could do it either. Actually they can't...Microsoft has even less recognizable characters.
It is actually more a testimony how special Smash Bros truly is...that only a few companies could make a game like this, because they have iconic characters that people have loved for two generations basically.
Companies that could make a Smash Brothers type game include:
Capcom, Sega, Namco, Konami/ Hudson Soft
That is about it.
Now, I am not saying that this game will be bad or fail...or even that I have anything against this game. Just that it isn't the instant win Smash Bros is...and it would be a hard sell to make it an instant win. The difference between Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft is simple.
When you ask about Nintendo Characters most people can name at least 3 characters from different franchises that are Nintendo characters. If they are gamers, then at least 5 or more.
With Sony or Microsoft I think you would get only 1-2 and maybe not even from different franchises...and sometimes not even exclusive characters.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on May 01, 2012, 03:40:30 AM
I remember this discussion from like page one!
Since the last time I posted, I was chatting with :smug: Dave Sirlin :smug: and he says Omar Kendall knows what he's doing, so I have a little more interest in this game now... I still don't know who the combat designer is though, or if Kendall himself is fulfulling that role, though.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on May 01, 2012, 08:21:08 AM
Sony has plenty to choose from, but I agree Sony doesn't have the same characters with history and roots that Nintendo has.
I agree and that's exactly why I think it was a bad idea for Sony to go right after Smash Bros. with a game so similar on almost every level. Sony's IPs aren't even in the same league. Capcom and Konami (maybe Square Enix since buying Eidos) probably come closest since 10 years ago, Sega decided that respect for their own IPs wasn't something they felt like taking part in. It's not that Battle Royale can't be good. Rather, it will ultimately be viewed as inferior due to its sheer lack of originality. There's no way for the game to exist without it being compared to the game that defined the play style and continues to do so.
Gran Turismo would not, there are no actual characters in the game (just vehicles). Same problem with Wipeout and ModNation Racers. Some of the others have similar problems.
Well, it's not that it can't work. It can if Sony is willing to cheat a little. Sakurai cheated with characters like Fox and Captain Falcon who orginally never left the cockpit. A better comparison is Fighters Megamix which included a Daytona car standing on its rear wheels and AM2's palm tree "mascot."
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on May 01, 2012, 02:38:22 PM
But at least Fox and Captain Falcon were characters. And having a Grand Turismo car stand up and fight on its hind wheels might be too silly for Sony.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on May 01, 2012, 02:43:46 PM
Very true. I was merely pointing out that Sony can represent those series should they so choose. However, I would argue against anything being "too silly" in a game where a man known for slaughtering gods and titans can be defeated by a rapping cartoon dog.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: nickmitch on May 01, 2012, 02:45:47 PM
Touché.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on May 01, 2012, 04:50:56 PM
Hey, I'd wager that a rapping cartoon dog to be more powerful than any GReek legend. ;)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Stogi on May 02, 2012, 08:01:59 AM
I have a feeling that Sony may money-hat long-time Sony developers like SquareEnix and even EA to get some exclusive characters ala Soul Calibur.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 03, 2012, 05:08:25 AM
I have a feeling that Sony may money-hat long-time Sony developers like SquareEnix and even EA to get some exclusive characters ala Soul Calibur.
EA? Who are they going to put in? Some military dude from Battlefield and Medal of Honor? Or Issac Clark from Dead Space?
I'd much rather see Ubisoft characters like Ezio (Assassin's Creed), Sam Fisher (Splinter Cell), Rayman, Jade (Beyond Good and Evil).
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on May 03, 2012, 08:49:00 AM
I'd be really surprised if Cloud wasn't in this game. Really surprised.
I'm curious just how deep in the well Sony is willing to go. Will Legend of Legaia and Legend of Dragoon be represented? I'd love to see Ico and The Queen show up.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 07, 2012, 07:33:01 PM
I'd be really surprised if Cloud wasn't in this game. Really surprised.
I'm curious just how deep in the well Sony is willing to go. Will Legend of Legaia and Legend of Dragoon be represented? I'd love to see Ico and The Queen show up.
Considering Legend of Dragoon was finally put up on PSN, I'd say there's a good chance.
I'd love to see some Wild Arms characters, that's a series that Sony has neglected for far too long.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: lolmonade on May 07, 2012, 09:53:30 PM
So is Solid Snake up for grabs, or is he lost due to his inclusion to Smash Bros?
Maybe Old Snake? Or other characters from the series? (Robo Raiden, Liquid Snake, Vamp)
I'd love if they could get PS1 version of Spyro in the game.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on May 07, 2012, 10:04:24 PM
Maybe Old Snake, but I think his middle aged character is off limits. Maybe have Cyber Raiden?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on May 07, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
So is Solid Snake up for grabs, or is he lost due to his inclusion to Smash Bros?
Maybe Old Snake? Or other characters from the series? (Robo Raiden, Liquid Snake, Vamp)
I'd love if they could get PS1 version of Spyro in the game.
Nintendo doesn't own Snake just because he was in one Smash Bros. game. He's still Konami's character, and he'll be in whatever game Konami wants him in. Considering the longstanding Sony association with the character, I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the game. Given that I don't like any of the Metal Gear games, I could do without him (and I thought he was severely out of place in Brawl) but he's an important character to Sony gamers in general.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 13, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
So is Solid Snake up for grabs, or is he lost due to his inclusion to Smash Bros?
Maybe Old Snake? Or other characters from the series? (Robo Raiden, Liquid Snake, Vamp)
I'd love if they could get PS1 version of Spyro in the game.
Nintendo doesn't own Snake just because he was in one Smash Bros. game. He's still Konami's character, and he'll be in whatever game Konami wants him in. Considering the longstanding Sony association with the character, I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the game. Given that I don't like any of the Metal Gear games, I could do without him (and I thought he was severely out of place in Brawl) but he's an important character to Sony gamers in general.
I find it highly ironic that Kojima keeps saying he wants to step away from the Metal Gear series, but he keeps coming back like an addict. Can't he just walk away? I thought "Kojima Productions" was an independent developer?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on May 14, 2012, 05:01:01 PM
i remember everyone going gaga over Brawl, but also being kinda miffed about simple lack of painfully obvious features. The thing about fighting games is that you have to keep the gameplay consitant throughout a series, gameplay is what seperates one fighting game from the others. Take Soul Calibur for instance. Pretty much always the exact game, but im happy with this. I hated Soul Calibur 3, it was different. Soul Calibur 5 kinda seems unnecessary in that its exactly like part 4 except it has the Assassin Creed star. Still, i was having fun playing through story mode, but i find it funny i dont need a tutorial. I pick it up and its second nature, even playing with characters iv never played as before it has the smartest most natural combo chaining system(though idk i never got into tekken so im not sure about that)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2012, 05:02:56 PM
i remember everyone going gaga over Brawl, but also being kinda miffed about simple lack of painfully obvious features. The thing about fighting games is that you have to keep the gameplay consitant throughout a series, gameplay is what seperates one fighting game from the others. Take Soul Calibur for instance. Pretty much always the exact game, but im happy with this. I hated Soul Calibur 3, it was different. Soul Calibur 5 kinda seems unnecessary in that its exactly like part 4 except it has the Assassin Creed star. Still, i was having fun playing through story mode, but i find it funny i dont need a tutorial. I pick it up and its second nature, even playing with characters iv never played as before it has the smartest most natural combo chaining system(though idk i never got into tekken so im not sure about that)
What "painfully obvious features" did you think were missing from Brawl?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: ThePerm on May 14, 2012, 05:29:34 PM
More costumes. They had to some extant both Young Link and Adult Link, but really they should have had more costumes beyond texture swaps for every character. Like for example instead of just Toon Link there could have been an alternate costume of Majora's Mask link. Mario could have had Dr. Mario, im not saying make whole new characters(like melee), just alternate costumes. Ganondorf Oot has a different design then Ganondorf WW and TP. Now in some cases they would be simply texture switches, but in other cases im sure they would have to make new models, but its not too much to ask. There are other games where theres like 5 different costumes for each character and they use radically different costumes, like for example Soul Calibur. Part of the goal of Smash Bros is the nostalgia factor, so you would think its important they cram as much nostalgia in as possible. I also don't mind having to unlock costumes. The Mortal Kombat games would make that part of the gameplay. I felt what was offered in Brawl over Melee wasn't enough, and proved the whole project got mediocre attention. Brawl is mostly just melee with a new coat of paint...except Kirby.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 14, 2012, 05:52:24 PM
I thought "Kojima Productions" was an independent developer?
No, they are owned by Konami.
But Kojima has a lot of say with what he does. If he really wanted to step away from Metal Gear, he would have done so after MGS 3 (the original PS2 game).
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 19, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
I thought "Kojima Productions" was an independent developer?
No, they are owned by Konami.
But Kojima has a lot of say with what he does. If he really wanted to step away from Metal Gear, he would have done so after MGS 3 (the original PS2 game).
I'm sure he wanted to, but then Konami would have given it to someone else.... and he can't have that. (what if that someone else made a better MGS than him?)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Tamazoid on May 20, 2012, 12:29:13 AM
I thought "Kojima Productions" was an independent developer?
No, they are owned by Konami.
But Kojima has a lot of say with what he does. If he really wanted to step away from Metal Gear, he would have done so after MGS 3 (the original PS2 game).
I'm sure he wanted to, but then Konami would have given it to someone else.... and he can't have that. (what if that someone else made a better MGS than him?)
Well after the original Metal Gear they did give it to another team without telling Kojima. They made Snake's Revenge which convinced Kojima to continue with the series as he called it "a crap little game." He most likely very protective of his franchise and doesn't want other people meddling with it.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on May 20, 2012, 01:46:59 AM
It has always seemed like Kojima has wanted to move on from Metal Gear but the people he leaves in charge don't have a lot of confidence or the same level of talent. They're always asking him to come back. I don't think Peace Walker was even Kojima's project from the start. Regarding its development, he said, "there was a lot of confusion within the team and it didn't proceed as I wanted it to. Therefore, I thought that I needed to jump in and do Peace Walker." The Metal Gear Rising team struggled without Kojima's direct input as well and the game was cancelled before restarting from scratch at Platinum Games.
On the 2 occasions where Kojima has left the series in other people's hands, we got the excellent and vastly underrated Ghost Babel and Portable Ops, by far the worst canon title in the Solid era. Maybe if they just stick to making 2D Metal Gear titles, Kojima could work on more non-Metal Gear projects.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 20, 2012, 02:12:32 AM
It has always seemed like Kojima has wanted to move on from Metal Gear but the people he leaves in charge don't have a lot of confidence or the same level of talent. They're always asking him to come back. I don't think Peace Walker was even Kojima's project from the start. Regarding its development, he said, "there was a lot of confusion within the team and it didn't proceed as I wanted it to. Therefore, I thought that I needed to jump in and do Peace Walker." The Metal Gear Rising team struggled without Kojima's direct input as well and the game was cancelled before restarting from scratch at Platinum Games.
On the 2 occasions where Kojima has left the series in other people's hands, we got the excellent and vastly underrated Ghost Babel and Portable Ops, by far the worst canon title in the Solid era. Maybe if they just stick to making 2D Metal Gear titles, Kojima could work on more non-Metal Gear projects.
2D Metal Gear? That's definitely wishful thinking. The closest we'll get to a new 2D Metal Gear game is that Retro City Rampage 8-bit game. Metal Gear didn't become successful until METAL GEAR SOLID landed on the PS1. Hardly anyone even heard of the series before that.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Evan_B on May 20, 2012, 12:24:29 PM
Am I the only one who is not impressed with this game, still?
Color auras around characters just shows how weak the idea of a Smash Bros. game in HD is with complex, realistic characters. The majority of Nintendo's all-stars and bright and vivd and don't need a hue of color around them to be spotted. But the inclusion of a special gauge, while interesting, is kind of silly and acts as a portable Final Smash. That's a no-no for me unless it can be switched off.
I dunno, I mean, they're gonna get all kinds of crazy support for this game from a bunch of developers, but I still doubt the concept. The fact that they're getting MvC players and such doesn't make sense to me since the Smash Bros. style is so... decidedly non-Capcom. That, and it's a blatant rip-off of Smash Bros.. However, this will hopefully increase Sakurai's incentive to raise the bar with the next installment- someone's copied his baby, he sure as hell better fight back.
My suggestion would be to sign on the Project M devs.
EDIT: After, you know... reading through the page before this, I agree with some of the points made. Sony doesn't have a rich background and they barely have All-Stars. I mean, Parappa the Rappa is... he's not an All-Star. Plus, these characters barely have movesets that define them. You know, the characters Nintendo has chosen to put into Smash Bros. are recognizable most because their gameplay mechanics- the play style of the characters shaped the games they were in and made them very unique. Having Nathan Drake and a Killzone character in the same game doesn't make sense because they're essentially shooter characters, and are going to be shooting stuff. Sure, Sly has a decently recognizable moveset, but using the entire roster of weapons that Kratos has doesn't really focus on what made his gameplay style so addictive in the first place. Kirby, Mario, Samus, hell- even Link and Pokemon Trainer heavily utilize the mechanics that are seen in their games to better differentiate them. I'm not saying the characters in this game aren't going to have variety- I'm sure they'll try to milk the hell out of making them unique- but they won't have the recognizable movesets of Nintendo characters. Smash Bros. maps out every move simply and recognizably- there's a great deal of history and heritage to the movesets. What the hell is Parappa the Rappa going to use, a microphone?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on May 20, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
But the inclusion of a special gauge, while interesting, is kind of silly and acts as a portable Final Smash. That's a no-no for me unless it can be switched off.
Considering that the game's mechanics have players only kill-able through being hit by a character Special, you're not going to be able to switch them off. I don't mind that mechanic so much, but I would like to also have the ability to get a kill by hitting an opponent irreparably off the stage or into a hazard. If you're going to crib liberally from Smash Bros., you might as well take what makes that game's combat system work. Plus, the stages they've shown so far (aside from the LittleBigPlanet one, which is neat) kind of suck, with too little environmental interaction and too simplistic layouts.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Adrock on May 20, 2012, 12:49:08 PM
2D Metal Gear? That's definitely wishful thinking. The closest we'll get to a new 2D Metal Gear game is that Retro City Rampage 8-bit game. Metal Gear didn't become successful until METAL GEAR SOLID landed on the PS1. Hardly anyone even heard of the series before that.
/facepalm
Do you even read people's posts? The point is that Kojima doesn't want other people screwing up his series so he keeps returning to Metal Gear. I was merely pointing out that the only time Metal Gear has turned out especially well without major input from Kojima was when the 2D Ghost Babel was released in 2000.
On a separate note, I would love a sequel to Ghost Babel.
Am I the only one who is not impressed with this game, still?
No, you're not. I'm looking forward to learning more about the game but I'm not impressed per se. Additionally, I don't particularly agree with your specfic qualms but that's just personal preference. I'm not impressed because the game lacks originality. I still like the concept.
Quote
You know, the characters Nintendo has chosen to put into Smash Bros. are recognizable most because their gameplay mechanics...
Come on, that's not even remotely true. Sakurai invented most of those moves.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Evan_B on May 20, 2012, 01:09:02 PM
Most of the characters in Smash Bros. are relatively based on their in-game selves. Sure, the Fox Triplets are up to interpretation and Captain Falcon is as well, but the characters attempt to draw from their source material as much as possible, in all truthfulness. The "All-Stars" of Sony have so very little to draw from.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on May 20, 2012, 01:17:29 PM
The "All-Stars" of Sony have so very little to draw from.
I disagree with that, though most of the franchises I'd reference are from before this console generation. I'm really curious how they're going to differentiate the Shooter-based characters, because functionally there really is extremely little difference between a character like Nathan Drake and Col. Radec. I suppose you can emphasize Radec as the King of long-range combat with his Sniper Rifle, but Drake's defining characteristic is not his combat but his dialogue and absurd climbing ability. I don't know how you implement that into a 4-player brawler setting.
I think we're going to have a better impression of this game's character lineup once Sony reveals the rest of it. Jak & Daxter; Ratchet & Clank; and Cole from Infamous are already practically confirmed, and all 3 of those have the potential to be really cool in this sort of setting. I can imagine a Resistance character working pretty well as well due to the crazy weaponry that series has. There's even a rumor going around that Sony commercial-mascot Kevin Butler might be a playable character (due to an IMDB listing, which is frequently changing), who could be pretty hilarious as a joke character. If Sony can get Sega to allow Valkyria Chronicles characters in the game I'll be ecstatic.
We've seen some oddball characters in the Smash Bros. games, so it should be interesting seeing what Sony comes up with for a character roster.
And Parrapa the Rapper uses a Boom Box to make his opponents dance themselves to death, along with a skateboard.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 20, 2012, 08:31:24 PM
To be honest, after seeing the initial trailer for PlayStation All-Stars, I wasn't really excited about PS All-Stars. But the more I hear about the game, the more interested I get.
I just wish they'd shorten the name to something more memorable, and get rid of that horribly generic logo. It looks more boring than Sports Champions.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on May 21, 2012, 03:13:37 AM
I've been thinking a lot about the scoring system in this game. It appears to me as an attempt to solve the kingmaker and runaway problems in Smash.
If I understand correctly, you build your meter by successfully attacking other players, and using that meter to kill them. This precludes the sitting-out/runaway strategy in FFA stock matches, and the kill-stealing strat of time FFA. This sounds... really good to me if it works and removes or reduces the kingmaker element of 3 and 4 player matches.
edit: in short, the player who does the most damage wins.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 21, 2012, 04:02:57 AM
I've been thinking a lot about the scoring system in this game. It appears to me as an attempt to solve the kingmaker and runaway problems in Smash.
If I understand correctly, you build your meter by successfully attacking other players, and using that meter to kill them. This precludes the sitting-out/runaway strategy in FFA stock matches, and the kill-stealing strat of time FFA. This sounds... really good to me if it works and removes or reduces the kingmaker element of 3 and 4 player matches.
edit: in short, the player who does the most damage wins.
Kingmaker? What's that?
So the "Super Meter" is basically this game's version of a Smash Ball / Final Smash? Then that would make it incredibly easy to unleash super moves. In Brawl, players had to fight over the Smash Ball, whoever obtained it first got the Final Smash power.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on May 21, 2012, 08:06:24 AM
"Kingmaker" is a player that will definitely not win, but whose actions will determine which other player will win. This happens a lot in Smash Bros if you're playing 3 or 4 players.
Functionally, supers in PSAS are quite a bit different from Final Smashes because: - they are earned through attacking other players - they are apparently the *only* way to KO other players
They are different in some other nitpicky ways but those are the big ones.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on May 21, 2012, 12:20:49 PM
"Kingmaker" is a player that will definitely not win, but whose actions will determine which other player will win. This happens a lot in Smash Bros if you're playing 3 or 4 players.
Functionally, supers in PSAS are quite a bit different from Final Smashes because: - they are earned through attacking other players - they are apparently the *only* way to KO other players
They are different in some other nitpicky ways but those are the big ones.
One other thing I would add is that in some cases you don't necessarily have to attack other players to power-up your Supers. It is the most expedient way, but I believe when you hit a player orbs fly out of him like rings in a Sonic game. Grabbing those is what powers-up your meter, so it might be possible to "steal" orbs that other players have generated. This is also true for Parappa, who can generate orbs from his boom box that other players can steal from him. I think the process of building up your Super meters is going to be a lot more flexible than it seems right now.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on May 21, 2012, 08:44:49 PM
"Kingmaker" is a player that will definitely not win, but whose actions will determine which other player will win. This happens a lot in Smash Bros if you're playing 3 or 4 players.
Functionally, supers in PSAS are quite a bit different from Final Smashes because: - they are earned through attacking other players - they are apparently the *only* way to KO other players
They are different in some other nitpicky ways but those are the big ones.
One other thing I would add is that in some cases you don't necessarily have to attack other players to power-up your Supers. It is the most expedient way, but I believe when you hit a player orbs fly out of him like rings in a Sonic game. Grabbing those is what powers-up your meter, so it might be possible to "steal" orbs that other players have generated. This is also true for Parappa, who can generate orbs from his boom box that other players can steal from him. I think the process of building up your Super meters is going to be a lot more flexible than it seems right now.
What do you know, Sony has some original ideas after all. I'd love to see Nintendo copy that idea...
(The preceding comment was all sarcasm)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 21, 2012, 09:44:09 PM
Actually, I think that this proves the Smash Bros idea is viable, but could use some tweaks. I like the damage meter against a player increasing. But I could also see a system where you can basically "get on fire" and either damage you do becomes more powerful...or another idea is that you heal the amount of damage you give...proving that being aggressive will give you benefits.
I actually like the idea of healing, and have it start after a certain combo...of course the combo system here would not be like a Street Fighter combo, but a string of hits before you are hit by somebody. (With a timer to prevent running away tactics.)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on May 22, 2012, 04:53:44 AM
Actually, I think that this proves the Smash Bros idea is viable, but could use some tweaks. I like the damage meter against a player increasing. But I could also see a system where you can basically "get on fire" and either damage you do becomes more powerful...or another idea is that you heal the amount of damage you give...proving that being aggressive will give you benefits.
I actually like the idea of healing, and have it start after a certain combo...of course the combo system here would not be like a Street Fighter combo, but a string of hits before you are hit by somebody. (With a timer to prevent running away tactics.)
dude what
No really, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. But, maybe you should look at/play DMTV World Fighters. It's the Konami/Hudson/Takara smash-ish game, and you could more or less be healed by attacking the other players. More specifically, when you hit guys, they lost life and dropped heart coins, which would give you life when you picked them up. There were no ring outs, so you had to beat the other players to death to win.
In that game, you could runaway or attack from a distance for a while, but it would tend to put you at a disadvantage against whoever came out ahead between the other players in a 3-4 player match. But, if you could successfully zone a guy out in a 1 on 1, that usually worked out pretty well.
None of this seems to matter a lick for PSAS because there are no life bars and ergo, no healing! You just have to get in there and kick ass to build meter faster than your opponents.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ceric on May 22, 2012, 09:31:24 AM
Wait, 1. can you get that game in the States. 2. Snake is a tramp. 3. So the health bar is shared and has a pointer to indicate where your at. 4. Is the kill point slowly moving up as you play?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on May 22, 2012, 10:14:00 AM
DMTV World Fighters is JPN only. GameCube and PS2. I believe I reviewed it for NWR many years ago actually! Snake is pretty good in that game. The roster is nuts actually. The actual system is simple and exactly how I explained it, but the life bar indicator is kind of confusing, at least inititally. It's just a sliding scale thing, the guy with the most life is shown at the right, and the other players are shown further to the left the less life they have. Does that make sense? It's really like all 2-4 life bars overlaid onto one meter.
The life coins that are dropped are always less than the life lost, so matches won't go on perpetually.
edit: yep, here's the review I did eight years ago. I still pretty much 100% agree with it. http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/review/4207 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/review/4207)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ceric on May 22, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
Yeah it makes sense. It just looked to be that that life bars effective got shorter as the match went on.
It be like in and MMO you start with Max 100 life and as time progressed on you could only max out at 50.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 29, 2012, 12:57:18 AM
Highly plausible rumor time!
Quote
A Reddit user who goes by the username 696Ly may have leaked more of the character lineup and some stages for the upcoming game PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale.
The screen shot below possibly shows the fighters Raiden (Metal Gear Solid), Dante (Devil May Cry), Ratchet (Ratchet & Clank), Sackboy (Little Big Planet), Spike (Ape Escape), Sir Daniel Fortesque (MediEvil), Nariko (Heavenly Sword) and possibly Evil Cole (Infamous).
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on July 29, 2012, 03:01:17 AM
Raiden but not Snake? Nariko but not Monkey (Odyssey to the West)? Lame.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 29, 2012, 04:29:36 AM
Maybe it has something to do with Snake being in Smash Bros. Kojima's sort of insane, maybe he didn't want him to be in both. I know he was in that random Japanese game a while ago, but that's not the same thing.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on July 29, 2012, 05:10:37 AM
I understand that, but what about Old Snake? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Tamazoid on July 29, 2012, 01:11:01 PM
Raiden but not Snake? Nariko but not Monkey (Odyssey to the West)? Lame.
Most likely because Heavenly Sword was published by Sony and is a PS3 exclusive.
No Snake however is odd. Must be Nintendo's meddling.
I don't see why they are including both Evil Cole and regular Cole. That's like Dr Mario/Mario all over again. I also wonder if it's going to be regular Dante or the new one everyone seems to hate.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on July 29, 2012, 02:44:36 PM
I know, so is Odysssey to the West (they're by the same developer). That's why I brought it up.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 30, 2012, 01:47:19 AM
Maybe it has something to do with Snake being in Smash Bros. Kojima's sort of insane, maybe he didn't want him to be in both. I know he was in that random Japanese game a while ago, but that's not the same thing.
DreamMix TV World Fighters was released in 2003 while Brawl didn't start development until 2005. More then likely when Nintendo and Konami made the deal to get Snake in Brawl, the agreement forbids Snake from appearing in any other Smash Bros style games. Meaning if Kojima wants Snake to be in the next Smash Bros, he can't put him in Playstation All-Stars or else Snake's out.
Since Brawl has sold close to 11 million copies, something Playstation All-Stars isn't going to get within half of, I'd imagine Kojima wants Snake to stay in the more popular series. Of course it'd be hilarious if the rumor is true then because Snakes the biggest third party Sony All-Star and yet he's appearing in Nintendo's All-Star fighter instead despite the series being very insignificant on Nintendo consoles for the last 20 years.
Sakurai: (laughs)
Iwata: (laughs)
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 30, 2012, 01:56:53 AM
Maybe it has something to do with Snake being in Smash Bros. Kojima's sort of insane, maybe he didn't want him to be in both. I know he was in that random Japanese game a while ago, but that's not the same thing.
DreamMix TV World Fighters was released in 2003 while Brawl didn't start development until 2005. More then likely when Nintendo and Konami made the deal to get Snake in Brawl, the agreement forbids Snake from appearing in any other Smash Bros style games. Meaning if Kojima wants Snake to be in the next Smash Bros, he can't put him in Playstation All-Stars or else Snake's out.
Since Brawl has sold close to 11 million copies, something Playstation All-Stars isn't going to get within half of, I'd imagine Kojima wants Snake to stay in the more popular series. Of course it'd be hilarious if the rumor is true then because Snakes the biggest third party Sony All-Star and yet he's appearing in Nintendo's All-Star fighter instead despite the series being very insignificant on Nintendo consoles for the last 20 years.
Sakurai: (laughs)
Iwata: (laughs)
Kazuo Hirai: (cries)
If you don't know who he is, he's one of Sony Computer Entertainment's main executives. He's been with the company since 1993.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 30, 2012, 02:30:14 AM
Ha! Nice one. Of course I know Kaz doesn't have much say when it comes to actually developing games, but he is the boss at Sony Computer Entertainment, so I had to use him for the joke. It was either him or Jack Tretton...
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 30, 2012, 04:30:43 AM
Have any of you guys tried to track down a copy of DMTV yet because of this thread? Every time I bust it out, my friends think I'm a wizard that pulled it from the future or something
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 30, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
Have any of you guys tried to track down a copy of DMTV yet because of this thread? Every time I bust it out, my friends think I'm a wizard that pulled it from the future or something
I bought the game back in 2004 and hated it. Sorry but to me the game was nothing but a poor mans Smash Bros which lacked everything that made the real Smash Bros great.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Tamazoid on July 31, 2012, 04:48:33 AM
I know, so is Odysssey to the West (they're by the same developer). That's why I brought it up.
Enslaved was published by Namco Bandai and was also released on the 360.
Therefore it is not a Sony IP. Heavenly Sword is a Sony IP. That is most likely why Nariko was chosen.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Oblivion on July 31, 2012, 12:13:09 PM
Damn Namco. >.< Dark Souls should've been PS3 exclusive.
Speaking of, where's the knight?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on July 31, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
I'm personally hoping this "leak" is a giant hoax (or that it's just part of a larger set of characters that weren't in the Beta), because I'm pretty underwhelmed by this roster. We don't need two Coles just so one can have Ice Powers and the other Fire Powers. As for the others, I'm pretty indifferent since they are either characters I don't know/care about or characters that were a given from Day 1 (like Ratchet). I was also hoping that maybe Sega might have shown an ounce of common sense and manage to get a Valkyria Chronicles character in the game, considering the Valkyria Chronicles series is actually a Sony-exclusive at the moment. :-\
I do like that Sly Cooper stage, though. I wonder what franchise is its partner in that stage, considering all these stages are mash-ups. Maybe Ape Escape?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on August 09, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Well, after several useless Beta invites to games I don't care about, I just received an invite to the All Stars Battle Royale Beta. I'm looking forward to trying that out when I get home tonight. Pity we aren't allowed to talk about any specifics. :-\
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on August 09, 2012, 08:25:45 PM
Alright, having played a match in the Beta with each of the 6 available characters now, I have to say that however much All Stars looks like Smash Bros. (and wow does it look like it in actual play), it plays almost nothing like it. I'm not sure how much I can say given that this is a private Beta, so I'll just note this amusing little observation: I had a really hard time getting used to all but one of the "gritty" characters, and I lost by a pretty wide margin. However, I kicked ass with the cartoony characters (I won all 3 of their matches by a pretty wide margin) and really enjoyed playing as them much more. Man, though...good luck finding your ****ing character during a given match, since the camera is pulled so far back it's almost like playing New Pork City in Brawl.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 10, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Eggghhhh I want a beta code :(
Is the fightstick support in this beta version?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on August 10, 2012, 07:17:07 AM
Not having a fight stick, myself, I wouldn't know if it was. But from what I've seen of the combat, there's no reason to use a fight stick in this game. There's no sense of finesse to the combat. Just pure chaos.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 10, 2012, 09:50:23 AM
I'd like to be the judge of that. I play Marvel, y'know :D edit~ I'm actually more comfortable with sticks than pads in general gaming now, not just fightin' games. If I'm running an emulator or playing a game that doesn't use analog at all, I always use a stick.
This also reminds me of when you guys talked about it in that podcast of yours, you missed a big point of having fightstick support. Events! - people don't like carrying multiple controllers around; almost everyone uses a stick - wireless controllers are forbidden
What's the button layout, anyway?
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: broodwars on August 10, 2012, 02:55:00 PM
If you've played Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Smash Bros. Brawl, the controls should be familiar to you, as they're essentially a hybrid of the two games' controls in terms of the face buttons. You have 3 attack buttons (Square,Triangle,Circle) and a jump button (X), which do various things when used in conjunction with various left analog stick directional movements. The two right shoulder buttons/triggers are devoted to grabbing items (and presumably players, but I've never successfully done it) and activating your current Super. The other shoulder button is used to activate Sly Cooper's cloaking ability if you're playing as him, or to block if you're playing as anyone else. I don't remember what L2 does, because I never use it.
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: Ceric on August 10, 2012, 03:12:27 PM
@Broodwars: I'll bet you Super plays the Persona Games with a Stick :P
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 10, 2012, 04:15:03 PM
Man I'm hitting up all my pals for a beta code for this game. If someone hooks me up, I can make it worth your while ~
In a possibly related story, I'll be able to do HD video capture next week :>
Title: Re: Sony's Smash Brothers clone? Title Fight?
Post by: tendoboy1984 on August 11, 2012, 12:24:49 AM
That has to suck, because every modern game console comes with wireless controllers as default. The only way to get a wired controller in most cases is to buy 3rd-party.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 11, 2012, 02:36:43 AM
It's usually not an issue because about 95% of fighting game players play on sticks. See how this might be a handy feature for All Stars?
The dual-shock die-hards play with wired PS2 controllers+USB adapter.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on August 11, 2012, 07:52:45 PM
It's usually not an issue because about 95% of fighting game players play on sticks. See how this might be a handy feature for All Stars?
While I don't doubt that 95% of Tourney players use Fight Sticks, I severely doubt that 95% of Fighting Game fans as a whole use them. It's probably closer to 70/30 in favor of traditional controllers, if there are even that many Fight Stick users.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 11, 2012, 10:19:59 PM
What's wrong with using a PS3 controller? Why would tournaments ban wireless controllers?
The #1 thing is that someone hits the home button, accidentally or on purpose, and interrupts the match on the system they were last playing on.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on August 14, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
Well, Sony just announced something nice for us at GamesCom, though I can't imagine it being good for their bottom line: if you buy the PS3 version of PlayStation All Stars, you get the Vita version for free. Nice.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on August 14, 2012, 03:28:50 PM
Sucks that Sony can keep blatantly ripping off Nintendo and getting away with it.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on August 14, 2012, 03:45:03 PM
Sucks that Sony can keep blatantly ripping off Nintendo and getting away with it.
Sucks that you are so emotionally invested in that and keep whining about it. Besides, I've actually played the game (unlike you, I expect), and it really plays very little like Smash Bros.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: TJ Spyke on August 14, 2012, 05:03:29 PM
Well, Sony just announced something nice for us at GamesCom, though I can't imagine it being good for their bottom line: if you buy the PS3 version of PlayStation All Stars, you get the Vita version for free. Nice.
I don't thin it costs them much anyways because I can't see very many people who would have bought both versions of the game. Hell, this is the first i've heard of them having a PSV version.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on August 14, 2012, 05:10:40 PM
Well, Sony just announced something nice for us at GamesCom, though I can't imagine it being good for their bottom line: if you buy the PS3 version of PlayStation All Stars, you get the Vita version for free. Nice.
I don't thin it costs them much anyways because I can't see very many people who would have bought both versions of the game. Hell, this is the first i've heard of them having a PSV version.
Considering there's a whole team they have to pay working on a Vita version they probably won't get any money off now, I think that's substantially less return than putting out a Vita version few buy. I guess they're hoping to use this as a loss leader to sell Vita hardware.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: TJ Spyke on August 14, 2012, 05:24:43 PM
I am not saying the PSV version didn't cost money to make, just that I don't think there are many people who were gonna buy both. People were gonna buy either the PS3 or PSV versions, so they aren't really losing any sales on those who were only gonna buy one version. If anything, this might help convince some people to buy the game now.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 15, 2012, 07:28:24 PM
Offering games this way may work the opposite way for me than it will for most people, in that I'll buy it this way to get the PS3 version instead of just buying the Vita one. I'm still not sold on this specific game, though.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Luigi Dude on September 30, 2012, 10:04:35 PM
So it looks like Sony has already revealed the full cast.
Big Daddy Cole MacGrath Evil Cole MacGrath Colonel Radec Dante Fat Princess Heihachi Mishima Jak and Daxter Kratos Nariko Nathan Drake PaRappa the Rapper Raiden Ratchet and Clank Sackboy Sir Daniel Fortesque Sly Cooper Spike Sweet Tooth Toro
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 10:10:06 PM
Big Daddy Cole MacGrath Evil Cole MacGrath Colonel Radec Dante Fat Princess Heihachi Mishima Jak and Daxter Kratos Nariko Nathan Drake PaRappa the Rapper Raiden Ratchet and Clank Sackboy Sir Daniel Fortesque Sly Cooper Spike Sweet Tooth Toro
Needs more 3rd-party characters. I'm dissapointed with the lack of Final Fantasy characters, no Gabe Logan (from Syphon Filter), no Crash Bandicoot (PS1 era), no Persona characters, no .hack characters. What a lame list.
There are a couple characters that don't really belong: "Emo Dante" and Nariko. Everyone associates DMC with the cool, white-haired Dante. And what's the point of putting Nariko in the game? She was only in one game (Heavenly Sword) and she's essentially a Kratos clone.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Adrock on September 30, 2012, 10:44:12 PM
Sony owns the Heavenly Sword IP. It makes perfect sense for Nariko to be included and a hell of a lot more sense than evil Cole (since Cole is already in there). I wouldn't call her a Kratos clone. She couldn't jump in Heavenly Sword.
And needs more 3rd party characters? I guess, but they could start with more 1st party characters. Here, we have generally 1 character per series which is kind of a bummer though 20 characters is pretty nice for a 1st installment. God of War could easily had 5 unique choices. I agree with Crash Bandicoot's absence. He's 3rd party, but he did represent Playstation for that entire generation. Same with Spyro.
I wouldn't be surprised if some 3rd parties were weary about licensing their characters to Sony for this game. Once they're in Battle Royal, they probably can't be in Smash Bros. Sakurai is super-picky and from the sound of things, not looking to add many non-Nintendo characters (if any more), but they're probably out of the running entirely if they show up in Battle Royal. I'd bet 3rd parties would rather have their characters show up in Smash Bros. Mega Man for Smash Bros. 4. Keep the dream alive...
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 10:48:39 PM
Mega Man for Smash Bros. 4. Keep the dream alive...
Classic or X?
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Adrock on September 30, 2012, 10:50:14 PM
Legends, just to **** with everyone.
But, seriously, that would be awesome.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on September 30, 2012, 10:55:52 PM
At least you didn't say ZX, Battle Network, or [vomits] Star Force... The only real Mega Man is the original "blue bomber", and his successor "X".
I'm actually glad that the Star Force series failed, cause I don't understand how that fits with the rest of the Mega Man series at all. I know it's technically a continuation of the Battle Network series, but that was just a reimagining (side-story?).
Mega Man is, and always will be, a robot. Not some cyberspace super hero (Battle Network, Star Force). And definitely not some human kid wearing Reploid armor (like the ZX series implies).
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 30, 2012, 11:39:20 PM
Classic...to me there is only one Mega Man Classic. If you are going to represent Mega Man X do it with a costume change or another character....Zero perhaps.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: nickmitch on October 01, 2012, 09:50:54 PM
I always liked Mega Man Battle Network.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 26, 2012, 11:55:57 PM
There's an open beta for a few more days. You don't need PSN+ or anything. I'm gonna play the hell out of this and write some impressions or something.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 27, 2012, 02:39:02 AM
I've played for a few hours, enough for me to pretty much dominate every match because I am amazing at video games. :smug:
Things I like:
+ Amazingly good netplay. I've been playing people in the US and Europe from here in Japan and it works very well, and does a great job of negating and hiding lag. It feels very much like GGPO (rollbacks) and I wouldn't be too surprised if I found out if it was using its secret sauces.
+ Both controller and arcade stick work great.
+ Three attack buttons with different attacks for up, down, forward, and neutral mean characters have a LOT of moves each.
+ I think I like static knockback a lot (as opposed to Smash Bros variable knockback). I like Killzone guy a lot and I feel like this gives me a dependable zoning game. This might also mean dependable combo setups, too.
+ As I predicted, due to the scoring system, ganging up and kingmaker shenanigans just don't work. If I'm better than y'all motherfuckaz, y'aint stoppin' me.
+ Levels shift around a lot. It's cool.
+ No random bullshit. You can see the bullshit coming :faust:
Things I don't like:
- The bad kind of button config, where you have to scroll through the commands instead of just hitting the button you want. And you have to be an online match to even change your controls! I'm sure this will go away by the time the game is done, but lol.
- Why is item pickup its own button that I have to configure? You don't want people to pick them up accidentally or something? I'd honestly rather have down+PPP like Cody in SF4 or something instead of another button. Eight buttons is a lot to configure! Along these lines, you could just make throw attack+guard as well.
- No offline or practice in the beta. Oh well, it's a beta!
So overall, I like it a lot (even more than I thought I would) and I think it's already clearly going to be a better game than Brawl. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: ShyGuy on October 27, 2012, 02:50:56 AM
Troll King rises!
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 27, 2012, 04:20:16 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Izztb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/6F2AJ.jpg)
die casual scum
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 27, 2012, 10:23:22 PM
I played a demo at Best Buy (that no one else had any interest in, apparently). The game is extremely frantic, more-so than Brawl. It might possibly be more intense than Melee. (shocker!)
I didn't like how you can't press "Up" to jump, you have to press the X button. The 3 attack buttons are a good addition, but I'm so used to the simple controls of Smash Bros. (A = normal attack, B = special attack).
Another downside is the terribly bland colors. I don't know if it's how the PlayStation TV was configured, but everything looked incredibly dull, like the colors were all washed out.
I'm still super-excited to finally try out this game at home once the PSN demo is released. I love Smash Bros, and I'm so glad that we have a major company making a game just like it. The more Smash Bros., the better!
Now where's the Microsoft version? ;)
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 27, 2012, 10:39:43 PM
I didn't like how you can't press "Up" to jump, you have to press the X button. The 3 attack buttons are a good addition, but I'm so used to the simple controls of Smash Bros. (A = normal attack, B = special attack).
I had an issue with not using up at first, but then I realized I was being silly because I always disabled it in Smash so I could avoid accidental jumping with up tilts.
Quote
Another downside is the terribly bland colors. I don't know if it's how the PlayStation TV was configured, but everything looked incredibly dull, like the colors were all washed out.
It was the TV.
Quote
I'm still super-excited to finally try out this game at home once the PSN demo is released. I love Smash Bros, and I'm so glad that we have a major company making a game just like it. The more Smash Bros., the better!
Yo it's an open beta! Just go to the PlayStation store and search for it.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 27, 2012, 10:49:44 PM
Too bad it's just a temporary beta. I'm downloading the beta right now. I just wish/hope that Sony lets us update the beta version to the full demo once that's released on PSN.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Oblivion on October 27, 2012, 11:24:32 PM
I don't care what the Fighting Gayme Master says, the game sucks.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on October 27, 2012, 11:31:36 PM
I don't care what the Fighting Gayme Master says, the game sucks.
Yeah, same here, and I played this Beta several months ago. It sucked then and it still sucks now, especially because the camera is pulled back to almost New Pork City levels of obscurity, the selection of characters in the Beta is pitiful, and the game deliberately doesn't display a running tally of how the match is going. It's hilarious to actually see people defending how no one knows how a match is going in PSASBR until it's over.
I really wanted this game to be good because there are characters in this game I'm fond of and I'm not opposed to someone other than Nintendo making this sort of game, but this game (at least as far as you can see in the Beta) just...isn't.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 27, 2012, 11:50:04 PM
I'm playing it right now.
And I kind of like it. As a Smash Bros. clone, it definitely nailed the frantic brawler style of gameplay. BUT... The controls are too complicated. You have 3 attack buttons, but you can't do any "smash" attacks (it doesn't matter if you tilt the stick or "smash" it, the attack is the same). Some of the moves are ripped directly from Smash Bros. Brawl (Radec from Killzone is a Snake clone, Fat Princess is a Jigglypuff clone, Jak is a Link clone).
The game is fun, but the presentation is horrible. The graphics look too bland, and the colors are all washed-out. The music sounds like something you'd hear from an up-and-coming DJ, it's the complete opposite of Brawl's majestic orchestrated soundtrack. This game clearly had very little effort put into its music.
Will the final game have customizable controls? Cause I hate how you have to press a button to jump, you can't tilt up on the stick or D-pad.
The gameplay is solid, a good start from Sony and SuperBot. Hopefully the sequel improves things even further.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Oblivion on October 27, 2012, 11:52:11 PM
Psssh. I don't see how a sequel can be done.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 27, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
I don't feel like the size of levels/camera zoom out was an issue at all. But yeah, I won't defend not showing a running ranking, that's just weird. I was able to keep track in my head easily since the beta matches are only 3 minutes, but when the full version comes out, I think I'd prefer to run 5 minute matches with my pals, maybe... But, the camera zooms out? Like in Smash Brothers but not as bad? Not enough characters in the beta? These aren't real problems.
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(Radec from Killzone is a Snake clone, Fat Princess is a Jigglypuff clone, Jak is a Link clone).
Lol no, they play nothing alike. I think if Radec plays like anyone, it's... Cable from MVC2. That plasma grenade!
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Will the final game have customizable controls? Cause I hate how you have to press a button to jump, you can't tilt up on the stick or D-pad.
It has customizable controls now, but the menu is annoyingly hidden. You have to hit start during a live match to get into it.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 28, 2012, 12:00:19 AM
The main theme music is terrible. I haven't heard such awful electronic music in a long time.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 28, 2012, 12:05:52 AM
But, the camera zooms out? Like in Smash Brothers but not as bad? Not enough characters in the beta? These aren't real problems.
B.S. The camera is so zoomed out by default that I can't see what my character is actually doing half the time, which is especially a problem with a character like Sly where his cloaking ability already makes him hard to see if you're playing him right. And with your characters so small, it's really easy to lose track of them in the chaos. It's just extremely bad camera design, and if the final game keeps this camera this game WILL review and sell extremely poorly because of it.
As for only having 6 characters in the Beta, let me ask you a simple question: how is a Beta that only includes 6 characters out of several dozen of any use whatsoever for performance testing? I played this Beta 2 months ago. It's a real Beta, not a demo disguised as one. So how are they getting useful testing data when only a very small fraction of their characters are actually playable in the Beta?
Moreover, these characters are decent, but such a small selection makes the Beta even more boring than it already would be, because everyone has an extremely small pool of characters to pick from so you just see the same matches over and over again. And it's not like those 6 characters were especially great to begin with, even if I do love Sly.
This game needs a real demo with a much broader array of characters, because as it is that demo pretty much determined that I'm not buying this game.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 28, 2012, 12:22:38 AM
The game releases in 1 month, I'm pretty sure it's done.
Kratos will be my main. I already know most of his moves just from smashing the buttons. :)
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: Oblivion on October 28, 2012, 12:24:01 AM
That also bothered me; every game I played, everyone was Kratos.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: tendoboy1984 on October 28, 2012, 12:32:41 AM
That's because his moves are so easy to spam! ;D
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on October 28, 2012, 12:35:54 AM
Pfft. Whatever. In my time with the Beta, I owned everyone with Parappa pretty easily. He can generate his own AP with his boombox move, his level 2 Special can clear an entire line of opponents, and his level 3 is an inescapable screen-clearer.
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on October 28, 2012, 12:40:26 AM
B.S. The camera is so zoomed out by default that I can't see what my character is actually doing half the time, which is especially a problem with a character like Sly where his cloaking ability already makes him hard to see if you're playing him right. And with your characters so small, it's really easy to lose track of them in the chaos. It's just extremely bad camera design, and if the final game keeps this camera this game WILL review and sell extremely poorly because of it.
Are you using a tiny CRT or something? The camera is fine. It zooms in when the characters are close, and zooms out when they're far away. It's exactly like Smash, and the biggest non-issue ever. Please look at this build and stop complaining about non-issues:
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As for only having 6 characters in the Beta, let me ask you a simple question: how is a Beta that only includes 6 characters out of several dozen of any use whatsoever for performance testing? I played this Beta 2 months ago. It's a real Beta, not a demo disguised as one. So how are they getting useful testing data when only a very small fraction of their characters are actually playable in the Beta?
Since it's not just PS+ users and is only four person matches, it's probably for netcode or whatever. Sorry that the beta/demo is not the full game!
Title: Re: Sony's SSB clone: Playstation All-Star Battle Royal
Post by: broodwars on October 28, 2012, 12:58:54 AM
B.S. The camera is so zoomed out by default that I can't see what my character is actually doing half the time, which is especially a problem with a character like Sly where his cloaking ability already makes him hard to see if you're playing him right. And with your characters so small, it's really easy to lose track of them in the chaos. It's just extremely bad camera design, and if the final game keeps this camera this game WILL review and sell extremely poorly because of it.
Are you using a tiny CRT or something? The camera is fine. It zooms in when the characters are close, and zooms out when they're far away. It's exactly like Smash, and the biggest non-issue ever. Please look at this build and stop complaining about non-issues:
Hmm...interesting. The zooming camera is actually new to this version of the Beta. The original Beta didn't have it, so the camera was always zoomed-out. It sounds like they finally took our complaints on the Developer forums to heart, because most people were complaining about the camera back then. Still, I'd be interested to see what the other stages look like now. In the original Beta, most matches I played ended up on either the Ratchet & Clank/God of War stage or the Little Big Planet/Buzz stage, and the camera non-zooming was a major problem there.
Title: Re: PlayStation All Stars: Better than Super Smash Bros Brawl!
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 29, 2012, 06:41:07 PM
I still thought the camera was too far zoomed out in that video. However, it is manageable to play. And if the actual fighting system is good then that is all it really needs.
