Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Chozo Ghost on April 17, 2008, 11:26:10 AM
Title: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 17, 2008, 11:26:10 AM
A year it made some sense to complain that the Wii didn't have a lot of games, but I still hear people bitching about the lack of games even now. While it is true that there could be more hardcore games made by 3rd parties, I don't think there is a serious shortage, and this is improving all the time. But yet, still there are people who are complaining and I keep hearing comments like "I have nothing to play until Mario Kart comes out", or "I don't want to beat this game too fast because then I'll have nothing to play until June". Why are people making these comments? There definitely could be more games than there are, but there is definitely enough out now that it's hard to imagine someone having beaten all of them..
So unless people are zipping through games at insanely fast speeds, or get sick of them and don't finish them, then I don't see how anyone could be lacking Wii games right now... We just had Smash Bros., Okami, and a bunch of other stuff coming out recently, and Mario Kart isn't far behind, so this had better be the end of these comments about not enough games for the Wii. >:( If people are still desperate, they need to look at WiiWare or the VC to help them pass the time.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 17, 2008, 11:29:55 AM
I don't really understand it either. Currently I have about 21 Wii games and a nice list of others that are about to come out or are already out. There is plenty to play, people just like to complain. I don't have many 360 games, but you don't hear me complaining that there isn't enough out there. There is plenty out there, just not much of what I really like to play. So if the Wii is your "main" system, there is plenty out there, otherwise, sure there isn't much because you are probably just waiting for the next major Nintendo release.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 17, 2008, 12:48:14 PM
I have to agree, I have a ton of Wii games with many I haven't even really had time to play. With Okami out now, you have no excuse to whine unless you have played the PS2 version heavily because that game will keep you busy for 10s of hours.The Wii has a good, solid library so far. Could it be better? Of course, but then again the library runs circles around the PS3 library in quality.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: LuigiHann on April 17, 2008, 12:50:31 PM
People love whining
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 17, 2008, 01:34:37 PM
Not enough generic shooters with bald space marines that wear the occasional paint ball suit (example generic Halo clone) and not enough brown.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 17, 2008, 01:40:41 PM
I have, for my Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Excite Truck, Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, and Zack and Wiki. I am interested in Okami.
Aside from those, nothing is worth owning.
Forgot SSBB on that list. According to a certain HULA HOOPS LIST you own that one too...
There's also photographic evidence...
As for the thread, I have to agree 100% with the sentiment. Its true that the Wii's library of games isn't perfect (but come on, its only a year old), it has many rock solid, fun and just plain great titles, which is more than the GC did in its first year.
I always tell people that if you can't buy, RENT. Seriously, nearly all video stores carry Wii games. Then there's services like Gamefly which are convenient, easy to use and let you keep the game till you are tired of it.
You won't believe the many arguments I have gotten into with people regarding Wii games. When they ask for suggestions and recommendations I always make an overwhelming list of games (especially for a system that is only a year old), yet they either say that they don't have the money to buy all that "crap", or say stuff like "This game is too short, not my type of game" or "The only ones worth owning are Mario galaxy and Brawl".
Its one thing playing everything the Wii has to offer and being disappointed, the other is being disappointed with the Wii while avoiding most of its game titles with excuses that really don't make sense or are hypocritical.
Sorry I started rambling, but I've had this argument before and its very annoying. In fact its so aggravating that if the consoles in question were the 360 and PS3 I too would be mad as the sentiment of avoiding titles, then complaining about them is stupid and retarded.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Plugabugz on April 17, 2008, 03:57:09 PM
I'm going to whine because NOE is useless. Is that acceptable?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 17, 2008, 04:02:18 PM
I have, for my Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Excite Truck, Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, and Zack and Wiki. I am interested in Okami.
Aside from those, nothing is worth owning.
Forgot SSBB on that list. According to a certain HULA HOOPS LIST you own that one too...
There's also photographic evidence...
As for the thread, I have to agree 100% with the sentiment. Its true that the Wii's library of games isn't perfect (but come on, its only a year old), it has many rock solid, fun and just plain great titles, which is more than the GC did in its first year.
I always tell people that if you can't buy, RENT. Seriously, nearly all video stores carry Wii games. Then there's services like Gamefly which are convenient, easy to use and let you keep the game till you are tired of it.
You won't believe the many arguments I have gotten into with people regarding Wii games. When they ask for suggestions and recommendations I always make an overwhelming list of games (especially for a system that is only a year old), yet they either say that they don't have the money to buy all that "crap", or say stuff like "This game is too short, not my type of game" or "The only ones worth owning are Mario galaxy and Brawl".
Its one thing playing everything the Wii has to offer and being disappointed, the other is being disappointed with the Wii while avoiding most of its game titles with excuses that really don't make sense or are hypocritical.
Sorry I started rambling, but I've had this argument before and its very annoying. In fact its so aggravating that if the consoles in question were the 360 and PS3 I too would be mad as the sentiment of avoiding titles, then complaining about them is stupid and retarded.
I agree with you completely. It's worth pointing out too that it nullifies the argument of narghnarghbaldspacemarinenargnargnarg.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 17, 2008, 04:29:33 PM
I'm going to whine because NOE is useless. Is that acceptable?
It's always acceptable to whine about a company in the market. Thats the point. Don't let those who whine about the whiners get your goat.
Yeah, but is the title of the thread "Nintendo of Europe sucks" or "Nintendo's online strategy needs to change"?
I thought so.
Hey don't try to own me, I didn't say ****.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 17, 2008, 04:40:32 PM
Actually my brother in law had that same sentiment until I took him to Best Buy and SHOWED him all there was on Wii, now he is frantically stalking UPS trucks weekly in his never ending quest to snatch a Wii.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 17, 2008, 05:06:08 PM
My issues with the Gamecube lineup were:
1. The third party support sucked. Seemingly every game would be annouced for every console BUT the Gamecube. 2. Nintendo was way too sequel crazy and a lot of the franchise formulas are running out of steam. This is partially a problem with following up the N64. Although many first party N64 titles were sequels they were remarkably fresh and innovative. Many of Nintendo's franchised peaked and have had nowhere to go but down since. 3. Little variety. Many genres had one good game to represent them if they had any at all.
The Wii has pretty much the exact same problems. If a major third party game is annouced it can be assumed to be for every console BUT the Wii. I find Nintendo's non-games very low on depth but their big "traditional" games are all sequels. Yeah I love SSBB but this is probably the last SSB game I'll get. Mario Kart is due to come out but I don't really care because to me Mario Kart is PLAYED. Nintendo is putting most of their creativity into titles like Wii Fit. Where is the Wii's Pikmin? Where is that major original game for the Wii that isn't aimed at non-gamers? I honestly am not that interested in the old franchises anymore but those are always the big titles. It's like non-games or sequels. Why are the options so black & white?
It's never about listing 20 games that you think are good and saying "see there are enough games". The Atari, NES, SNES, PS1 and PS2 all had one thing in common: you want it you got it. Any type of game and any genre was represented with many different options. If the game you wanted wasn't on that console odds are SOMETHING similar was at least there as an alternative. There was something for everybody. "Not enough bald space marines. LOL!" Why not? Who are you to tell us what we want or don't? Since the N64, Nintendo has told people what they want and the best consoles didn't do that. They gave you almost everything. The Wii SHOULD have generic shooters along with non-games and platformers and RPGs and fighters, etc.
To really be satisfied with the Gamecube you had to have very specific tastes. The Wii is very much the same way and that is why people are still "whining".
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 17, 2008, 05:17:08 PM
Where are the games? 3rd parties are too afraid to make them. They are confused. They're not adjusting. Things have gone... sideways.
Wii is the market leader. An unexpected market leader, so surprising that 3rd parties did not have "big" titles planned for its first year in the market. But in the process of planning new catch-up titles, they're afraid they can't compete with Nintendo's execution and vision in producing titles that embrace the new functions, afraid their old-world core games won't be embraced by Wii's non-known, non-understood non-market. They are afraid to commit to the new "risk".
Sony used to have a market leader. 3rd parties were surprised PS3 is not the champion system that the market would parade and maintain the core gamer audience. 3rd parties did have games planned, some cancelled, many "delayed" in hopes of entering a ripened PS3 installed base. But nearly 1.5 years later, the grass is not greener. The installed base has not caught-up with their "projections". They are afraid to commit their sure-fire "big" projects to the champ of the "old ways". Committing to the fallen king is also a risk.
So now, there'll be even less games than before, leaving 3rd parties "stuck."
But that's all right. The forest fires of the real movers (the market) will burn down the old trees and let the low-laying sproutlings flourish. And it will be obvious which platform the new risk-taking game makers will choose.
The climate is still in transition, so while the old champs, the GTAs/MGS/bangbanggungun, have come out, what's in the line-up afterward? Will there be another 3-4 year wait for the other "real" games? Maybe the market changes have gone deep enough that there aren't any "real" games planned afterward, just "risky" games with an all-new commitment behind them.
Don't worry about the ones who are whining, cuz they'll be washed away and become the new lapsed gamers.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 17, 2008, 05:55:30 PM
Quote
Don't worry about the ones who are whining, cuz they'll be washed away and become the new lapsed gamers.
Kind of a formal way to say "love it or leave it". Sadly you're probably right. Hell it already happend to me with wrestling. What I want out of wrestling and what the WWE provides have become so different that I can't imagine them ever having me as a fan again. It's an interest that no longer is available to me, with the exception of old stuff I missed the first time around. I see a lot of eerie parallels here. The change of focus to non-gamers is such that my interest has really dropped. I probably will become "lapsed" at some point. I seems like Nintendo has virtually no interest in catering to my tastes. They're assuming I'll stick around no matter what and the WWE did the same thing. And they probably won't miss me when I'm gone either, like the WWE.
Though I think "the company I've supported for over ten years though dark times is rewarding my loyalty with neglect" is a valid complaint and not whining.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 17, 2008, 06:15:30 PM
Where are the games? 3rd parties are too afraid to make them. They are confused. They're not adjusting. Things have gone... sideways.
Wii is the market leader. An unexpected market leader, so surprising that 3rd parties did not have "big" titles planned for its first year in the market. But in the process of planning new catch-up titles, they're afraid they can't compete with Nintendo's execution and vision in producing titles that embrace the new functions, afraid their old-world core games won't be embraced by Wii's non-known, non-understood non-market. They are afraid to commit to the new "risk".
Sony used to have a market leader. 3rd parties were surprised PS3 is not the champion system that the market would parade and maintain the core gamer audience. 3rd parties did have games planned, some cancelled, many "delayed" in hopes of entering a ripened PS3 installed base. But nearly 1.5 years later, the grass is not greener. The installed base has not caught-up with their "projections". They are afraid to commit their sure-fire "big" projects to the champ of the "old ways". Committing to the fallen king is also a risk.
So now, there'll be even less games than before, leaving 3rd parties "stuck."
But that's all right. The forest fires of the real movers (the market) will burn down the old trees and let the low-laying sproutlings flourish. And it will be obvious which platform the new risk-taking game makers will choose.
The climate is still in transition, so while the old champs, the GTAs/MGS/bangbanggungun, have come out, what's in the line-up afterward? Will there be another 3-4 year wait for the other "real" games? Maybe the market changes have gone deep enough that there aren't any "real" games planned afterward, just "risky" games with an all-new commitment behind them.
Don't worry about the ones who are whining, cuz they'll be washed away and become the new lapsed gamers.
That whole post made me think of LoZ: Wind Waker/the flooding of Hyrule/the Koroks
POTY
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 17, 2008, 06:22:53 PM
"Hell it already happend to me with wrestling"
I stopped watching after Stone Cold's rise to stardom, and the new "edge" the org embraced. Monday Night RAW lost its class. Monday Night was not fun anymore.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 17, 2008, 06:27:40 PM
Or maybe your getting old and your tastes have changed. I keep thinking that way my self.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 17, 2008, 06:32:49 PM
It's the other way around.
Personal tastes are deeply rooted and are difficult to change, while the world, the market, travels whatever path that doesn't keep it from moving.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 17, 2008, 06:37:28 PM
Quote
Or maybe your getting old and your tastes have changed. I keep thinking that way my self.
Yeah but I'm not even 30 yet. Though I'll admit I haven't liked current music much at all since about 1996. I don't like reality TV. I don't chat on MSN much. I don't text with my phone. I don't have an iPod and have no real desire to have one. I'm not on Facebook. Is this the future? I meet people five years younger than me and it's like they're from a different world. I'm old at 26?! Huh? Maybe it's just a timing thing. I am pretty much the youngest a person can be to have had a childhood without the internet. Perhaps I'm just at the very end of one generation and people who are 20 or so are the very beginning of another one.
Still if someone from the future told me that ten years from now people who are with it at 12 are old fuddy duddies at 18 I'd believe them. In the future it will be "don't trust anyone over 20" if it isn't already.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 17, 2008, 06:38:56 PM
STOP IT IAN, YOU'RE DESCRIBING *ME*
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 17, 2008, 06:43:08 PM
I don't know maybe you are right, maybe it is because guys like me and Ian are looking for the same types of games we played as kids and the new stuff isn't ever going to cut it. I can agree with that, I have more VC games than actual Wii games and there are fewer games I care for and most are sequels or remakes to tell you the truth. At least that is how I feel about it, Ian may be in a totally different state of mind. For me, the people who get excited about some of these new types of games seam a little crazy.
I haven't yet completely bought into the new way to play either to be honest. I have a DS, my DS library consists of Tetris DS, Sonic Rush, NEW Super Mario Bros, Mario 64 DS, Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow and I had Mario Kart DS but I traded it in a while back to get MP3.
As for Wii, I love Wii Play, I love Zelda, MP, and Super Paper Mario. I have two other games (I despise Wii Sports and only play it when other people are around who want to) and that is all I have. There are a few games that interest me but for the most part they are "more of the same" the games for Wii I *want* are NiGHTS, Alien Syndrome, RE:UC, House of the Dead 2 and 3, and Brawl. Other than that there isn't any of the new stuff that has jumped out at me. It wasn't like that with GC, I ate everything up they threw at me. That is why I am torn, I strongly feel the Wii games are going to get better, but maybe it is me who just isn't that into them as much as I want to be. Damn I kinda contradicted myself didn't I?
Or maybe your getting old and your tastes have changed. I keep thinking that way my self.
Yeah but I'm not even 30 yet. Though I'll admit I haven't liked current music much at all since about 1996. I don't like reality TV. I don't chat on MSN much. I don't text with my phone. I don't have an iPod and have no real desire to have one. I'm not on Facebook. Is this the future? I meet people five years younger than me and it's like they're from a different world. I'm old at 26?! Huh? Maybe it's just a timing thing. I am pretty much the youngest a person can be to have had a childhood without the internet. Perhaps I'm just at the very end of one generation and people who are 20 or so are the very beginning of another one.
Still if someone from the future told me that ten years from now people who are with it at 12 are old fuddy duddies at 18 I'd believe them. In the future it will be "don't trust anyone over 20" if it isn't already.
that is what I mean, not old as in old in life, but old enough that it changes things. That is how I feel and I am 25. I don't' fell old at all but everything you said is spot on with how I feel.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 17, 2008, 07:07:50 PM
People whine because Nintendo is the only company that's putting any effort in making good, original titles for the Wii. Not surprising, but not much different than Gamecube, the difference being Wii is successful. 3rd parties aren't really helping Nintendo sell the Wii, they're just feeding off Nintendo's success with a lot of second-rate efforts. While I'm extremely happy with the 3rd party Wii games I own, only 1 (No More Heroes) of them is original and exclusive. Every console has ports. However, ports on the Wii are mostly of last generation games which, understandably, don't count to some people.
I've bought a lot of Wii games this year, I'm picking up Okami tonight and Mario Kart next week. After Wii Fit though, I have nothing reserved. I'm not complaining as I have tons to play, I just find it odd since I ALWAYS have something reserved.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Deguello on April 17, 2008, 09:24:08 PM
Pro's right. It's easier to change the world than it is to change yourself.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 18, 2008, 12:34:01 AM
People whine because Nintendo is the only company that's putting any effort in making good, original titles for the Wii. Not surprising, but not much different than Gamecube, the difference being Wii is successful. 3rd parties aren't really helping Nintendo sell the Wii, they're just feeding off Nintendo's success with a lot of second-rate efforts. While I'm extremely happy with the 3rd party Wii games I own, only 1 (No More Heroes) of them is original and exclusive. Every console has ports. However, ports on the Wii are mostly of last generation games which, understandably, don't count to some people.
I've bought a lot of Wii games this year, I'm picking up Okami tonight and Mario Kart next week. After Wii Fit though, I have nothing reserved. I'm not complaining as I have tons to play, I just find it odd since I ALWAYS have something reserved.
Somewhere out there, Zack and Wiki are crying their little hearts out...
But in all seriousness, aren't we all jumping the gun here? The Wii is only a year old, yet we are talking about it like its a lifetime of failure, especially on the third party front.
Yes, its true that third parties need to release better games. However, you can't ask for change to happen in an instant. You have to remember that things have changed drastically this generation. The Wii is a massive hit while the 360 and PS3 have failed to catch up to it, despite having better graphics, features and games. Nintendo has gone from the mocked and ridiculed console to being the cool kid that everyone wants to hang with.
Things are slowly changing, but are changing. Wii games are getting better all around. Take for example, Sega Superstars Tennis. While the overall game was criticized harshly for its gameplay, many said the best version to play is the Wii version due to its controls.
And must we forget The Godfather and Resident Evil 4? Both are ports of last gen games, but were made better thanks to how intuitive the Wiimote is. So much, in fact, that its now impossible to play the older versions.
Finally, what about WiiWare? Many small developers and even some third parties are putting a lot of effort into their releases, hoping to create very innovative and fun games for the Wii (like Lost Winds, Strong Bad Game and many others).
So I think people are just looking at some bad Wii games and thinking that's how its going to be for the rest of the generation. People, the typical lifespan of a system is 5 to 6 years, the Wii only has one. Who knows what will happen between now and then?
Its silly to always think of the positive outlook, yes, but expecting the worse is just as stupid.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 18, 2008, 06:24:29 PM
I actually didn't really like Zack and Wiki. (insert flame here)
Anyway, I'd say I'm cautious more so than pessimistic. Almost all of last year, I said we should expect 3rd parties to make more announcements in 2008 because they can't possibly ignore the Wii's popularity. Yet, here were are in 2008, albeit in the middle of April, and nothing has changed. I can only be so optomistic and I don't think I can rightly say the old Nintendo fan adage, "Wait for E3" without feeling like it's half-BS because E3 has come and gone year after year and Nintendo is still the only company stepping up to the plate. Sure, it's their platform, but I expected Wii's breakout success to lure more publishers into supporting the console with stronger titles. At least announce something! Instead we view Okami as a major 3rd party announcement. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm super happy to get Okami on the Wii. At the same time, I'd hardly call that progress. When Capcom decides to make a completely original game like they did with Okami on PS2, I'll change my tune. The Wii doesn't command that kind of respect and there's really no reason for it with the way the console is still selling.
I'm hopeful, but cautious which I think is fair. Publishers are flat-out refusing to publish "mature" games on the platform. What the F is that about? Before I form a positive outlook, I need something to be more optomistic about.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mario on April 18, 2008, 09:11:03 PM
Quote
Where is the Wii's Pikmin? Where is that major original game for the Wii that isn't aimed at non-gamers? I honestly am not that interested in the old franchises anymore but those are always the big titles. It's like non-games or sequels. Why are the options so black & white?
ELEDEES (Elebits in US) is the Wiis PIKMIN! GO GET IT!!! Look outside Nintendo you close minded Nintard. You're a GIANT hypocrite, ask for third party games then don't even look at them.
Quote
3rd parties aren't really helping Nintendo sell the Wii, they're just feeding off Nintendo's success with a lot of second-rate efforts. While I'm extremely happy with the 3rd party Wii games I own, only 1 (No More Heroes) of them is original and exclusive.
I have, for my Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Excite Truck, Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, and Zack and Wiki. I am interested in Okami.
Aside from those, nothing is worth owning.
And you just plain SUCK!
YOU ARE ALL NON-GAMERS!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 18, 2008, 10:12:41 PM
I agree with Mario's sentiment.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 18, 2008, 10:35:24 PM
I had Elebits, I really liked it, it was great. I sold it because the save file was stupidly over 100 blocks and I have way too many VC games to put up with that (except for Brawl). Kororinpa is awesome and I should really go back and get 100% in it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 18, 2008, 10:50:33 PM
I wasn't terribly impressed with Elebits. Kororinpa is that marble game, right? Ehh....
About half of my Wii games are 3rd party. I think I'm doing my part.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 19, 2008, 12:06:36 AM
Quote
ELEDEES (Elebits in US) is the Wiis PIKMIN! GO GET IT!!! Look outside Nintendo you close minded Nintard. You're a GIANT hypocrite, ask for third party games then don't even look at them.
Sadly, I'll have to partially agree with Mario here. In the Cube era you whined on and on about a lack of mature exclusive third party titles, then when Resident Evil 4 came along you didn't even play it, saying you were never interested in RE or something. Seriously, it was the best mature exclusive third-party title on ANY platform.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 19, 2008, 02:11:48 AM
But RE4 wasn't exclusive at all. In fact, not only did Capcom go out of their way to make sure everyone knew that RE4 wasn't exclusive, they also loaded the PS2 version with all kinds of extras.
I know that's besides the point. I just don't think any Nintendo fan should ever forget how entirely douchey that was on Capcom's part.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 19, 2008, 04:47:18 AM
I know that's besides the point. I just don't think any Nintendo fan should ever forget how entirely douchey that was on Capcom's part.
Don't worry, I never forgot. I also never forgot how every other 3rd party screwed over Nintendo last gen and continues to do so as well.
Now I've expressed my views on third parties many times, so I'll just say this. When the Wii outsold the 360 last summer to become the market leader, that's when third parties should have gotten the message. After last December when the Wii dominated the holiday season, that's when they really should have gotten the message. And now when the Wii sold over 700,000 units last month alone, which is over 200,000 more units then the 360 and PS3 COMBINED in the same month, they should understand very very well.
The way I see it is this E3 is going to be the big decider. We'll finally see if third parties are going to take the system seriously, or if they're just going to completely screw over Nintendo this gen, like they did last gen. After this E3 the whole, give third parties more time argument is dead. By this July they will have had a whole year and a half of the Wii dominating the competition in every single territory, for every single month to finally get a clue.
If they haven't gotten it by then, then I doubt they ever will.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 19, 2008, 05:50:35 AM
Luigi's right - at the very least third parties should announce major titles in the pipeline for Wii, even if they're a year or two down the road.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 19, 2008, 06:33:00 AM
Boom Blox says “Hi”.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 19, 2008, 02:47:57 PM
Don't worry, I never forgot. I also never forgot how every other 3rd party screwed over Nintendo last gen and continues to do so as well.
I would argue that 3rd parties, for the most part, did not screw over Nintendo last generation. Gamecube was dead last and if there was a dumbf*ck decision to be made, Nintendo made it.
I won't say 3rd parties are screwing Nintendo over with the Wii yet though it's certainly seeming more and more like it with every passing week.
Recognition fail. Adrock is right. Luigi Dude is just biting all of my super awesome points. :P
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 19, 2008, 03:42:54 PM
Capcom went back on its word about the exclusive five, if that isn't screwing over, I don't know what is.
Also Namco making Soul Calibur III a PS2 exclusive screwed over both Xbox and Gamecube.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 19, 2008, 04:14:52 PM
I was thinking of making a long, blowhard post about the argument, but I decided to do this instead...
*Ahem...
Third parties suck. Nintendo sucks. The Nintendo fanboys suck for not supporting good third parties, they suck for only support Nintendo and they suck for supporting both of them.
There's no middle ground or gray area in the argument. Everyone just plain sucks, and this thread is clearly evident of this.
Everyone's a hypocrite and everyone's too forgiving. Everyone's way too pessimistic and everyone's way too hopeful of a brighter future.
Again, no middle ground. No matter which train of thought you are in, you are most likely a pathetic person for being there.
There, my whole argument.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 19, 2008, 04:27:31 PM
Also Namco making Soul Calibur III a PS2 exclusive screwed over both Xbox and Gamecube.
No, if you want screwed over by Namco, the Tales series is the perfect example.
Now Tales of Symphonia for the Gamecube sold well in Japan, with over 300,000 copies, but that wasn't quite what Namco hoped for. But thanks to Nintendo, who FUNDED the english translation, the game went on to sell over 1 million copies worldwide, over 500,000 of those were in the US alone. This made the Gamecube version of the game the best selling Tales game of all time, which it still is to this very day.
But you see, because they weren't happy with the Japanese numbers, they released a PS2 port of Tales of Symphonia which went on to sell over 400,000 copies. Even though it was only a 100,000 unit difference between the two version, that was all Namco needed to go on and announce, Tales of Rebirth, Legendia, and Abyss would all be PS2 exclusive.
That's right, even though it was thanks to Nintendo and the Gamecube fanbase that made Symphonia a wordwide hit, Namco repays us by making every other Tales game PS2 exclusive. Oh and the real kicker, Tales of the Abyss was actually started on the Gamecube, but then moved to the PS2.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 19, 2008, 04:33:34 PM
Who needs daytime soap operas when you can just go to a Nintendo forums and watch the drama? :p
"Watch as Namco once again betrays the love and loyalty of its fans by porting a game over to a rival console"
Instant masterpiece.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 19, 2008, 04:58:47 PM
Who needs daytime soap operas when you can just go to a Nintendo forums and watch the drama? :p
"Watch as Namco once again betrays the love and loyalty of its fans by porting a game over to a rival console"
Instant masterpiece.
Wow, you didn't even bother too read my post, good job. If you had, you'd see the point was Tales of Symphonia sold amazing on the Gamecube, and yet Namco never bothered to release any more Tales games on the system. Even though Symphonia showed there was a huge fanbase for the series, Namco refused to even give us a port. If that doesn't show that Namco clearly had a bias towards the system, then I don't know what does.
Of course if you know a reason other then bias, go right ahead and say it. Explain why Namco, after Symphonia sells over 1 million copies wordwide on the Gamecube, doesn't bother to even port one of the PS2 games over.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 19, 2008, 05:15:16 PM
I would argue that 3rd parties, for the most part, did not screw over Nintendo last generation. Gamecube was dead last and if there was a dumbf*ck decision to be made, Nintendo made it.
True enough. Nintendo has learned from some of the mistakes they made with the GC. For one thing, they know use full-size DVD media which offers a lot more space than the dinky GC discs that could only hold a fraction as much. Plus, this time Nintendo is really embracing online capabilities and has made some other improvements as well.
They still are making a mistake by not having a hard-drive for the Wii, but this isn't as much of a mistake as the mistakes they made with the GC and they will probably have hard drive support eventually anyway. I guess someone might say Nintendo is still making a mistake by not including HD support, but I think actually the opposite is true and that Sony and MS are making the mistake by forcing HD down developer's throats. HD games cost a lot more to make, so they're more expensive and the profit margin is less. So this time around Nintendo is actually doing most things right (aside from the hard drive, and maybe friend codes).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 19, 2008, 05:16:47 PM
Who needs daytime soap operas when you can just go to a Nintendo forums and watch the drama? :p
"Watch as Namco once again betrays the love and loyalty of its fans by porting a game over to a rival console"
Instant masterpiece.
Wow, you didn't even bother too read my post, good job. If you had, you'd see the point was Tales of Symphonia sold amazing on the Gamecube, and yet Namco never bothered to release any more Tales games on the system. Even though Symphonia showed there was a huge fanbase for the series, Namco refused to even give us a port. If that doesn't show that Namco clearly had a bias towards the system, then I don't know what does.
Of course if you know a reason other then bias, go right ahead and say it. Explain why Namco, after Symphonia sells over 1 million copies wordwide on the Gamecube, doesn't bother to even port one of the PS2 games over.
Dude, don't get your panties in a bunch. I read what you posted, and yes, it ain't surprising that Namco has f*cked up priorities when it comes to their games.
I was simply stating that there's so much double crossing and betrayal going on in the videogame world between fans and companies that it rivals many daytime soap operas.
Its what we like to call "a joke", something you missed during your temper tantrum.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: that Baby guy on April 19, 2008, 05:21:49 PM
Easy: Namco likes the Tales series to sell well in Japan, and it did that on the PS2. Tales of Symphonia did not sell nearly as well on the Gamecube as it did on the PS2 in Japan, even with a long delay between the original and the port's release.
It's of worth to note that it wasn't until after Tales of Symphonia that we began to see Tales games released in North America frequently, or as frequently as a series can be released. It's of further worth that most of the projects released were for the PS2, though there was one PSP release and a GBA release, as well, and since then, we haven't seen the series except for upcoming games, two of which are on Nintendo platforms.
When you consider the development lifetime of a product, along with the userbase of the other consoles last generation, both in North America and in Japan, it's clear that it just wasn't worth the resources to port/make a second tales game for the Gamecube: In Japan, with the option between PS2 and GC, the PS2 won handily, and I believe in North America, sales of Tales games were about even for both platforms, though I haven't checked that. Furthermore, it's likely that the games you're complaining about were in development for the PS2 by the time Namco gained a complete grasp of Symphonia sales, decreasing the likelihood of the project switching development to a different platform.
As far as why they didn't port an older game over: Symphonia's sales took some time to accumulate. The game was released in August of 2004, if memory serves correct, and sales were steady up until Christmas, I think. I'd check, but I'd rather criticize you. Essentially, Namco wouldn't have great sales numbers for the game until January 2005, which, of course would be another holiday season where Gamecube sales were much lower than their competition. Essentially, to most developers, it seemed like everyone owned a PS2 by now, including owners of Gamecubes, and thus, they likely believed the PS2 to be the platform that could reach the most people, and that a GC port would take too much time and resources for too little return, considering most Tales fans would already have the game on the PS2.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 19, 2008, 05:29:00 PM
If it makes you feel better, pap64, I knew you were joking. That's why you put the ":p" there.
Also, I read that Tales of Symphonia was ported to PS2 because Japanese fans complained it was being released on Gamecube, not PS2. And Namco is releasing a sequel to Tales of Symphonia on the Wii. They wouldn't bother with a sequel on a Nintendo platform if they didn't recognize the sales of the original.
I guess someone might say Nintendo is still making a mistake by not including HD support, but I think actually the opposite is true and that Sony and MS are making the mistake by forcing HD down developer's throats. HD games cost a lot more to make, so they're more expensive and the profit margin is less. So this time around Nintendo is actually doing most things right (aside from the hard drive, and maybe friend codes).
Definitely friend codes, maybe on the hard drive. I don't think not supporting HD was a mistake. The Wii could stand to have more powerful hardware, but it's getting by just fine without it. Sales wise, anyway. Maybe 3rd parties would be more receptive to releasing more Wii games if they could downport their titles. Lazy, but at least there would be more games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 19, 2008, 05:30:19 PM
[modern analyst] Tales of Symphonia GCN had the best attach rate of all Tales games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 19, 2008, 05:38:08 PM
I'm going to whine because NOE is useless. Is that acceptable?
It's always acceptable to whine about a company in the market. Thats the point. Don't let those who whine about the whiners get your goat.
Yeah, but is the title of the thread "Nintendo of Europe sucks" or "Nintendo's online strategy needs to change"?
I thought so.
I can only complain with gusto the things that affect me. The supposed lack of games, don't. What does is NOE being already sold out of Wii Fit before it even gets here.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 20, 2008, 02:46:30 AM
Somehow, I knew someone was going to use the "Internet serious business" joke...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 20, 2008, 04:04:12 AM
He bans all blue shells and items in Wii Bowling.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 20, 2008, 04:23:45 AM
God I disappear for a couple of days and this thread goes INSANE. I gotta read through it and probably make a ton of responses to quotes now... ay-yay-yay!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 20, 2008, 11:37:24 AM
Great, I'm gone for two days and a thread starts and gets derailed.
Anyway, I agree that the Wii has too few games.
First off, yes, the shelves contain a lot of games. The first problem is that most are shoddy (same for every system of course). Nintendo does release a lot of games but these are just a trickle and they are scattered over ther whole range of possible games, if one genre isn't your thing that means a nice gap in the releases. If you narrow your choice to the genres you like the catalogue is pretty much halved (this is normal but must be considered, noone likes every genre).
The number of good third party games is tiny. A large part of the good ones are just ports. Others are weak but get promoted through the small pond syndrome, titles like Sonic, Elebits and Kororinpa are B-list games yet people here herald them as great games.
Once I filter the library for good games that I haven't played before and are in a genre I like the list shrinks way too much.
Hell, I know everyone talked how awesome the Wiimote would be for FPSes but there's only one good FPS out for the system (Metroid Prime 3), the rest is just haphazardly implemented near-launch stuff that gets really bad review averages (Red Steel, CoD3 and Medal of Honor: Vanguard are the only FPSes except MP3 I've seen).
My mother wanted a racing game but there's not a single decent racer that's not arcadey.
RPGs? Is there even ONE RPG on the system? I haven't heard of any. (Opoona hasn't even been announced for a local release BTW)
Another point is sticker shock, Zack & Wiki may be a great game but I can't bring myself to pay 50 Euros on it and 60 for NMH is just right out. The Wii simply has NO bargain bin games. Well, okay, it has crappy movie tie-ins in the bins but no good games fall in price. This really fails their non-gamer strategy, non-gamers aren't willing to spend much money and a line of cheap games that don't leave you feeling ripped off is imperative in generating mainstream appeal. For the PS2 I can get a HUGE list of 20 Euro games including many old million sellers. Nintendo alone is the majority of the good game library of the Wii and they don't want to drop prices, making people who don't have much money buy shitty games and getting the impression that the Wii is full of crap.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 20, 2008, 02:58:14 PM
Hell, I know everyone talked how awesome the Wiimote would be for FPSes but there's only one good FPS out for the system (Metroid Prime 3)...
First Person Adventure, you f-ing n00b. :P
Quote
The Wii simply has NO bargain bin games.
Well, to be fair, the Wii has been out all of, what, 18 months? Can we really expect many "Player's Choice" titles yet? Also, Wii has a lot of games that were released for under $50. RE4 was $30, House of the Dead 2 and 3 was $30 (but Sega discounted some of their games so I got it for $20), Okami was $40 and so on.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 20, 2008, 03:37:33 PM
Well Europe sucks when it comes to Nintendo getting new games out there. But MP3 being a FPS and not a FPA? ROFL.
MP3 is much more linear than previous Metroids and much more story heavy (as in, "do this-or-that before the next map area is unlocked" instead of "get item X so you can get past obstacle Y"). There's little exploration and not much interesting stuff to find (only some capacity upgrades, everything else is mandatory). It's like the Prime version of Metroid Fusion.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: LuigiHann on April 21, 2008, 04:31:11 PM
Myst is a first-person adventure. Any Metroid game would be an action-adventure, if that. :P
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 21, 2008, 06:50:41 PM
Quote
guess someone might say Nintendo is still making a mistake by not including HD support, but I think actually the opposite is true and that Sony and MS are making the mistake by forcing HD down developer's throats.
I think everyone is doing it wrong. Forced HD is just as restrictive and stupid as no HD at all. It should be an option and developers should then make the call themselves about whether or not their game should support it.
It is the gimped hardware that is more the problem. By being too different the decision for a third party is either "X360 and PS3" or "just Wii". The Wii is a great option if using the remote makes sense but for a game that uses a "normal" controller the other consoles are more ideal. Make a "traditional" game on the Wii and there is a hardware limit that the other consoles don't have. The Wii isn't better or even equal, it's just different.
Plus I think the kids console crap is still very much alive. Sh!t like friend codes doesn't help. Neither does promoting grandmothers playing your console. Neither does the lack of HD or the "weaker" hardware. Kid focused products are often dumbed down and the Wii is very blatantly dumbed down. I remember when the N64 had cartridges, many people I knew assumed Nintendo did that because they're easier for kids to understand. Once the idea is in their head people are going to look at any irregular decision and come to the conclusion they want from it. You dumb stuff down and then promote the whole family playing and you're just damning the console to be full of third party kid focused crap. But then how else would they get the non-gamer market? I'll admit I can't think of a solution to that.
Nintendo is the kid that gets made fun of a school and shows up the next day wearing a pink shirt and suspenders. It's the bully target that you feel sorry for, but still seems to bring it on themselves. They shouldn't pick on you, but do you have to be such a weenie little dork? Third parties shouldn't jerk Nintendo around but Nintendo shouldn't give them so many excuses to. I'd like to see Nintendo design a console without any blatantly obvious cons or tradeofs or lame excuses that might make a developer question support. They've been shooting themselves in the foot for three consoles now and, surprise, they've had sh!tty third party support all throughout. Despite regaining the top spot with the Wii, Nintendo has still never given themselves a fair playing field. If they ever do I imagine things will improve dramatically, regardless of what market share they have going in.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 21, 2008, 07:31:04 PM
[q]Despite regaining the top spot with the Wii, Nintendo has still never given themselves a fair playing field.[/q]
I agree completely. Nintendo has always played the game by their own rules. I applaud them for it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 21, 2008, 07:41:15 PM
All I have to say is play Doom 3 and then say MP3 is still just a FPS. But that is getting off topic.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 21, 2008, 07:59:22 PM
Quote
I agree completely. Nintendo has always played the game by their own rules. I applaud them for it.
In most games if you play by your own rules you get disqualified. That happened to Nintendo two generations in a row.
I admire individuality but don't admire anti-social behaviour. Everything works best in moderation. A person that is an individual in everything has no companions but a person that follows the crowd in everything makes no real personal connections with anybody. You have to mix it up. I admire when Nintendo goes against the "rules" and makes something like Metroid Prime. I don't admire when they ignore industry conventions just because. When they don't release demo discs through any conventional means or do online in some screwed up sh!tty Nintendo way it's irritating as hell.
Steal your competition's good ideas, avoid their mistakes, learn from your own mistakes, improve on their ideas if you can, introduce your own ideas to compliment them. To always do things differently is just stubborn pride. Nintendo's ability to think outside of the box is admirable but they seem to think that any idea they didn't come up with isn't a good idea. That's just f*cking dumb.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 21, 2008, 08:25:26 PM
Yeah Nintendo needs to learn to listen to other companies, it has hurt them terribly with the Wii. Stupid Nintendo.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 21, 2008, 08:55:22 PM
I'm a dark mysterious loner. Just like Nintendo.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Arbok on April 21, 2008, 09:16:20 PM
Make a "traditional" game on the Wii and there is a hardware limit that the other consoles don't have. The Wii isn't better or even equal, it's just different.
Well... I guess there is two ways to look at this. If Nintendo had beefed up the hardware specs, it's true that they wouldn't have alienated their console this generation and probably would be getting a lot more games that would now be "Wii, 360, PS3" titles, instead of just showing up on the latter two.
The question, though, is if this would be in the best interest in the long run? Would an inflated price of the Wii above $300 have affected their sales rate? Probably, at the very least it would have slowed down the word of mouth factor since less people would be willing to give it a try and there would have been less of a rush. So just with that alone the result is probably that the 360 would still be in the lead today.
Okay, so what if Nintendo decided to just take a loss instead on the system? Better for the consumer, but from an economic standpoint I really doubt they would be making up that lost income with the additional third party software they would get that was also appearing on the other two systems.
Finally, one must also consider their current strategy. The weaker console and lack of HD really benefits smaller developers as budgets are reasonable. This was part of Nintendo's aim. It allows for more risky titles that don't have to be guaranteed 1/2 million sellers just to stay out of the red. Is this environment ideal for the big third party publishers who can throw millions at projects and would likely benefit from no competition from smaller dev houses? That's negative, and this might explain why they have been reluctant to support the Wii.
So I guess it's a mixed answer in the end, depending on both how you want to look at it and what aspects of the market you desire on the console.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mario on April 21, 2008, 09:32:22 PM
GameCube just isn't taking off. Nintendo needs to show more gameplay footage in ads. Joe Football Player NEEDS to appreciate Mario Sunshine damn it! Ram it down consumers throats! They'll LOVE that! You know what, Nintendo needs to reach a wider audience to get up there with the big guys. No more relying on franchise games, how about something new and creative that doesn't scare people away. And a realistic Zelda.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 21, 2008, 09:46:00 PM
Pfffff, you want Nintendo to be third again?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 22, 2008, 04:19:37 AM
I think everyone is doing it wrong. Forced HD is just as restrictive and stupid as no HD at all. It should be an option and developers should then make the call themselves about whether or not their game should support it.
But you forget that HD support would make the hardware more expensive, and Nintendo wants to actually profit from their consoles unlike MS and Sony. If they included HD support then they would either have to charge more for their console, or else sell it at a loss. What they are doing by leaving HD out makes perfect sense - especially since most consumers don't even have HD TVs to make use of it just yet. In the end, HD does make a sharper picture, but it has absolutely no impact on playability or fun factor of games.
It is the gimped hardware that is more the problem. By being too different the decision for a third party is either "X360 and PS3" or "just Wii". The Wii is a great option if using the remote makes sense but for a game that uses a "normal" controller the other consoles are more ideal. Make a "traditional" game on the Wii and there is a hardware limit that the other consoles don't have. The Wii isn't better or even equal, it's just different.
Actually, I think the nunchuck arrangement has proven that any traditional sort of game can be done on the Wii. The only real problem is that the motion control is there, and most developers think they must incorporate it somehow, but that isn't the case at all. I remember the DS was like that in it's first year or two on the market. Every developer seemed to think it was necessary to make use of the touch screen, so you even had games like Castlevania requiring the touch screen to draw seals after beating bosses, but it wasn't really necessary, and the developers seemed to have learned from that because now there are lots of DS games which don't rely on the touch screen at all.
The Wii is like this now, and many developers want to tack on motion controls where it isn't necessary and doesn't make any sense, but they don't have to. The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.
Plus I think the kids console crap is still very much alive. Sh!t like friend codes doesn't help. Neither does promoting grandmothers playing your console. Neither does the lack of HD or the "weaker" hardware. Kid focused products are often dumbed down and the Wii is very blatantly dumbed down. I remember when the N64 had cartridges, many people I knew assumed Nintendo did that because they're easier for kids to understand. Once the idea is in their head people are going to look at any irregular decision and come to the conclusion they want from it. You dumb stuff down and then promote the whole family playing and you're just damning the console to be full of third party kid focused crap. But then how else would they get the non-gamer market? I'll admit I can't think of a solution to that.
I know what you mean, by the "kiddie" crap, but it really makes no sense whatsoever since the Median age for a Wii owner/player is a good deal higher than the Median age of their 360 or PS3 counterparts. The 360 and PS3 are actually the immature consoles, if you think about it.
Nintendo is the kid that gets made fun of a school and shows up the next day wearing a pink shirt and suspenders. It's the bully target that you feel sorry for, but still seems to bring it on themselves. They shouldn't pick on you, but do you have to be such a weenie little dork? Third parties shouldn't jerk Nintendo around but Nintendo shouldn't give them so many excuses to. I'd like to see Nintendo design a console without any blatantly obvious cons or tradeofs or lame excuses that might make a developer question support. They've been shooting themselves in the foot for three consoles now and, surprise, they've had sh!tty third party support all throughout. Despite regaining the top spot with the Wii, Nintendo has still never given themselves a fair playing field. If they ever do I imagine things will improve dramatically, regardless of what market share they have going in.
They've definitely made some mistakes here and there, but they've managed to remain profitable all this time, even though their last two consoles are labeled "failures". Could they have done better? Absolutely, but at least they are still a 1st party unlike Sega, Atari, or 3D0. Heck, they must have learned from some of their mistakes because they are the market leader again. I think the "kiddie console" stigma is beginning to loosen up a bit, because now we're seeing things like No More Heroes and Bully, when stuff like this was unheard of in the GC era.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 22, 2008, 08:43:05 AM
I call BS on having HD would cost more money for Nintendo. The Xbox AND PS2 both could do HD why can't the Wii? Don't tell me adding HD output would raise the cost of hardware because that is bogus. The added development cost is BS also, it does not take much more to create higher res textures as people think. It is not the HD that drives up the cost of the other consoles, it is all the other garbage they have crammed into their little boxes. Look at the Core 360, it started life out a mere $50.00 higher than Wii is right now.
The 360 and Ps3 have more powerful processors and graphics chips, both which likely cost more than the CPU/GPU in the Wii, along with additional ram, and a few other tweaks, that is what makes them cost more, not the being able to output in HD. The Game Cubes GPU was surely capable of higher resolutions that 720 x 480, if that same chip was in a PC it would easily display in 1280 x 1024, which is higher than the necessary 1200 x 720 needed to output in HD. They could still do 720P easily with the existing hardware, it is only a matter of Nintendo not caring enough to make it possible. They don't even need anything extra if they Wii can already display in 480p and the GPU is more than capable of going higher res than that 720p is not even a stretch.
Everyone who says going HD for Wii knows nothing about what is required to do HD in the first place. I do not buy that excuse at all, it wouldn't take anything more than a firmware update to go at least 720p with the current hardware, that is all up to Nintendo. Now the system can't do better graphics than it was designed to do no matter what, up to now no dev has even tried to push it because they are assuming it is nothing more than a GC with a waggle wand.
Nintendo chose not to go HD because they knew with the hardware they had showing Wii graphics in higher resolutions wouldn't make them look any better and they didn't want to put in any extra effort and assumed if they didn't nobody else would. Pure stubbornness plain and simple. It isn't even too late to get at least 720p out of the Wii and not too far of a stretch to imagine in the next year or two they might even figure out how to make it happen.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 22, 2008, 08:51:54 AM
HD doesn't need much more hardware but it emphasizes the flaws in the graphics, indirectly requiring more power because otherwise everything looks ugly.
BTW, the gamecube's fillrate was chosen to exactly cover a 640x480 framebuffer, a larger framebuffer would mean the fillrate would be too small.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2008, 01:03:19 PM
Quote
The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.
Well I disagree about the Nunchuk/remote combo having all that's necessary. It doesn't even have dual analog sticks. But it is pretty close and like you said the Classic Controller is right there.
The Wii is capable of handling traditional games, it's just from a hardware perspective the worst option. If you're a developer and who have ambitious ideas that won't use the remote the PS3 or X360 are going to take you further.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 01:21:39 PM
The Nunchuck and Wii-mote combo have all the analog sticks and buttons necessary for traditional gaming. All they have to do is just ignore the motion aspect. Plus, there's also the Classic Controller too. So the Wii has no real difficulty handling traditional games.
Well I disagree about the Nunchuk/remote combo having all that's necessary. It doesn't even have dual analog sticks. But it is pretty close and like you said the Classic Controller is right there.
The Wii is capable of handling traditional games, it's just from a hardware perspective the worst option. If you're a developer and who have ambitious ideas that won't use the remote the PS3 or X360 are going to take you further.
We've seen many ambitious new ideas on PS3 and Xbox 360.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 22, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
Ian, define traditional. Many traditional genres would benefit from having motion controls or IR pointing.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Armak88 on April 22, 2008, 02:34:24 PM
What traditional games really require the second analogue stick? The only ones I can think of are FPS's and using the IR on the remote is a vastly superior control scheme. Other than that the second analogue stick was mostly used for changing the camera angle, and Mario Galaxy did just fine without it and it is more movement oriented than any game I've ever played on any system.
The only true draw back that I see is the lack of face buttons. The control pad on the remote is uncomfortable to reach the up button with your thumb and the 1 and 2 buttons are in an awkward position. Still I didn't have any problems with Twilight Princess, so perhaps all the traditional control schemes just need to be tweaked slightly to work.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 22, 2008, 02:43:21 PM
Yes I do contest to the IR superiority over a stick. In Bully you use the IR a lot (Works really really well), except for when I had to use this Potato cannon. That mission really sucked because of my accuracy was trashed without the IR. Maybe thats because I had to use the left joystick for aiming though.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2008, 02:51:41 PM
Quote
Ian, define traditional. Many traditional genres would benefit from having motion controls or IR pointing.
I would argue that only a handful of genres benefit from motion controls and point to waggle as proof of that. By "traditional" I mean a game that uses a traditional controller. If a developer wants to make a game that does not use the remote the PS3 and Xbox 360 provide more flexibility. "Well that's just better graphics so it doesn't matter." Doesn't matter to you maybe but to some pretentious wank like Hideo Kojima or that Dead or Alive guy it does matter. "Who cares about them?" Well with third party support you're not going to get anywhere if you have too many tradeoffs and developers have to compromise their ideas.
Nintendo isn't designing the games for the third parties. So them saying "well you don't need a cutting edge presentation because you can use this different control scheme" isn't always going to fly. They can't tell third parties what they want. Is it really any different than "well you don't need online play because you can use connectivity with the GBA"? The only difference is the remote is popular with consumers and connectivity sure as hell wasn't. It's the same old Nintendo designing a console solely with their own use in mind and having crappy third party support due to the resulting tunnel-vision design.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 22, 2008, 03:00:45 PM
It's the same old Nintendo designing a console solely with their own use in mind and having crappy third party support due to the resulting tunnel-vision design.
Really? I'd argue that third-party support is the best we've seen on a Nintendo console since the SNES.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 03:03:42 PM
It sure doesn't feel like the Wii has a lot of games . . .
I don't need people to ramble off a list to me of good/great games all I know is I barely play the system.
As was said in other threads to me, and I agree, it could be because my tastes in games are shifting. All I know is, I was a Nintendo hardcore gamer for all my life but now I am final going to take the plunge and get a 360 and/or a PS3 to fulfill my gaming needs.
The Wii's current line up of games just isn't cutting it, for me.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 22, 2008, 03:11:49 PM
It sure doesn't feel like the Wii has a lot of games . . .
I don't need people to ramble off a list to me of good/great games all I know is I barely play the system.
As was said in other threads to me, and I agree, it could be because my tastes in games are shifting. All I know is, I was a Nintendo hardcore gamer for all my life but now I am final going to take the plunge and get a 360 and/or a PS3 to fulfill my gaming needs.
The Wii's current line up of games just isn't cutting it, for me.
That's perfectly fine. I think we can all agree that the Wii is not the PS2. But we can also agree that the Wii is seeing a resurgence in third party attention for a Nintendo platform after the declines of the N64 and GC periods.
Myself however, as a Nintendo-only gamer, the Wii is getting a lod of the games I used to envy other systems for: DDR, Parappa the Rapper games, quirks like PuchiCopter (which I relate in my head to Ka, that PS2 mosquito game...)... these are the games that I envied PS2 owners for, and these are the games I'm delighted to find on the Wii now.
The real reward for being the market leader is being the defacto home for niche titles and quirky titles that try out new things. I've never had such a feast of options before as a Nintendo-only owner.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 04:13:47 PM
I think an argument can be made that Wii is opening up the possibility of EXPANDING what developers can do. Look what they did with PES which is arguably the greatest innovation ever in sports gaming. Zack and Wiki is another and let's not forget Boom Blox which is extremely innovative and would NOT have been possible elsewhere.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 22, 2008, 04:29:19 PM
This thread makes no sense to me because I don't have time to play many games, so the games that are out seem like TOO many. I actually wish the major game releases would trickle out like they used to.
I've barely touched brawl, i still need to finish NMH and Galaxy properly, tons of cars to unlock in Excitetruck still, not 1 but 2 trauma centers to get thru, and Mario Kart comes out when!?!?!?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 22, 2008, 04:31:42 PM
I still think all we can do is give it more time. Like it was said, if E3 comes along and still no changes, then we have a right to complain.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 04:33:22 PM
This thread makes no sense to me because I don't have time to play many games, so the games that are out seem like TOO many. I actually wish the major game releases would trickle out like they used to.
I've barely touched brawl, i still need to finish NMH and Galaxy properly, tons of cars to unlock in Excitetruck still, not 1 but 2 trauma centers to get thru, and Mario Kart comes out when!?!?!?
Ian never makes sense, so nothing new here. ;) j/k
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 22, 2008, 05:21:51 PM
By "traditional" I mean a game that uses a traditional controller.
Okay, if you define a game by its controller then obviously no alternate controls will work. Also if you define a traditional controller as a Dualshock then of course any deviation from that design will cause problems (e.g. 6 face buttons and 2 shoulder buttons...). However I'm not sure there's many games that need the exact design of a dualshock, many just use a subset of the buttons on that mess.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 22, 2008, 05:23:41 PM
since when has Nintendo ever made "traditional" controllers anyways?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 05:28:32 PM
I would call the SNES controller a traditional controller.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2008, 05:36:16 PM
Quote
Really? I'd argue that third-party support is the best we've seen on a Nintendo console since the SNES.
"Better" is a relative term. Just because it might be better than the Gamecube's last few years doesn't mean it's good. I'd say it being better is iffy anyway. At this point on the Cube we at least had this promise about Resident Evil exclusivity and Soul Calibur II was going to have Link in it. None of those really amounted to much but they were something. Where are the big exclusive third party games that have been annouced that I am unaware of? I'll count multiplatform games here too provided they're available on the Wii on day one. I see lots of spin-offs and second tier titles aimed at kids and last-gen ports, just like I saw last year. At this time with the Cube there were still third party games in the pipeline that were creating a buzz. What third party Wii game is doing that? I hear a lot of arguement that third party support is better than the last two gens. How so?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 05:42:35 PM
Yeah the spin off garbage is just plain annoying.
RE:4 for GC made me happy to own a GC. Heck it even made me happy to own a Wii, and then Capcom gives us RE:UC and we (as of now) miss out on 5. Thanks Capcom.
Same for Soul Calibur. SC2 did the best on the Cube (thanks to Link), SC3 goes to PS2 exclusively and now SC4 skips the Wii and instead we get SC Legends.
:deep sigh::
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 22, 2008, 05:55:26 PM
You guys act like it's surprising to see third parties cheating Nintendo yet again...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 06:08:21 PM
It's not surprising it's just silly to put up with it when there are better alternatives to go to =)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 22, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
Not really, especially when most 3rd party offerings are still crap (speaking as a 360 owner)...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 06:41:09 PM
Not really, especially when most 3rd party offerings are still crap (speaking as a 360 owner)...
I like my 360 but Bill has a point, the system is just as bad when it comes to being flooded by "flashy" but shallow titles that are kind of like clones of each other. Personally I think having graphical power as a crutch is far more likely to lead to stagnation than having to think of new ways of creating games without relying on that one thing (Boom BLox is a perfect example of this).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 06:48:06 PM
I'm not looking for a plethora of good third party games . . . just third party games (and well games in general) that I know won't be on the Wii.
See: GTA IV, SC 4, Mass Effect
I also am interested in some Xbox Live games like SFII HD and the recently announced SC I remake.
I'm not looking for a lot but lately even Nintendo first party titles aren't doing it for me or my friends.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 22, 2008, 07:22:47 PM
Sounds more like you are burning out on gaming, period...Well, at least the good side of gaming... =)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 07:23:08 PM
I'm not looking for a plethora of good third party games . . . just third party games (and well games in general) that I know won't be on the Wii.
See: GTA IV, SC 4, Mass Effect
I also am interested in some Xbox Live games like SFII HD and the recently announced SC I remake.
I'm not looking for a lot but lately even Nintendo first party titles aren't doing it for me or my friends.
Nintendo R 4 Kidz
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2008, 07:25:53 PM
Quote
I like my 360 but Bill has a point, the system is just as bad when it comes to being flooded by "flashy" but shallow titles that are kind of like clones of each other.
Maybe the problem is that third parties in general aren't maintaining a good level of quality. I still think there's some really obvious stuff like GTA IV being on every console BUT the Wii. That shouldn't be happening.
I do think their are far too many bland games with boring setting though. Pretty much any non-Japanese game that strives for somewhat realistic looking graphics just doesn't stand out. Compare the Call of Duty, Rainbow Six and Battlefield series. F*ck, does ANYTHING stand out about those at all? I would get screenshots of those games mixed up. Crap on Halo but at least Master Chief has a distinct look that gives the game some personality. All these modern setting army games and realistic racing games and sports games all blur together. It makes those games seem more disposable. And they are. Those games have no shelf life once a sequel comes out.
Realistic graphics don't have to be boring. Konami and Capcom frequently release games with human characters with correct proportions and yet it doesn't look dull. Metal Gear Solid and Resident Evil for example don't look generic.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 07:29:18 PM
Ian you forgot to add Army of One in your list with Rainbow Six and co ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 07:32:36 PM
::shrugs:: Good is a suggestive term.
What is good to some isn't good to others.
Should I keep with nintendo so I can play the next version of Mario Kart? or should I stomp on new grounds, play some new games and have fun with it like I used to many years ago?
Are Nintendo games great? Of course they are, it's just getting tiring now. Brawl made me realize just how tired I am of the Nintendo formula. Playing with friends on the 360 made me realize how much I have been restricting myself by sticking with the Wii and only the Wii.
It just makes no sense.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 07:35:58 PM
Nothing like stepping out of the Nintendo formula to the sci-fi/wwII/shoot lots of things formula!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 22, 2008, 07:41:52 PM
Hey Crackdown was fun ok. Everything else yeah sure why not, but at least 360 had Crackdown and Lost Planet and Dead Rising and a few others in the beginning. Not saying I think Wii doesn't have good games cuz I like a lot of what Wii has to offer, but 360 does have some of the good stuff Wii is lacking, hell it even has BETTER RPG's so far. damn it somebody remind me how much I love the VC before I put my Wii up on ebay...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 22, 2008, 07:52:51 PM
or should I stomp on new grounds, play some new games and have fun with it like I used to many years ago?
I guess...If you actually had listed some games that are actually new...
GTAIV and SCIV? SFIIHD and SC, which are REMAKE/PORTS!? The only game there that is somewhat original is Mass Effect, and even that relies on some rather outdated battle gameplay... =/
At least add something like Bioshock (which I guess also isn't all that original considering it's basically System Shock 2) or, uh...Oblivion? Geez, I like both of these games tons but they are hardly original...But whatever, it's not like I'm trying to talk you out of getting a 360, I'm just trying to save you some money so you don't get it and realize that gaming is rather derivative for the most part on the other side of the fence...
Hey Crackdown was fun ok. Everything else yeah sure why not, but at least 360 had Crackdown and Lost Planet and Dead Rising and a few others in the beginning.
Thanks, I was looking for some more examples of derivative 3rd party games!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2008, 07:58:59 PM
I'm not sick of the Nintendo formula but rather the execution of it. I AM tired of the same old sequels. I look at the big Wii games and it's Zelda, Mario, Metroid, SSB, Mario Kart. All good but, f*ck, I've played it before. Wii Sports feels like a demo to me but at least it's new. It's a new concept that isn't attached to a franchise. I was getting sick of the sequels on the Cube as well. Nintendo seems to think "core gamers" just want sequels and that sucks. I want to see brand new stuff from Nintendo that isn't simplistic dumbed-down non-game junk. But that's where their creativity is going. Hate to always bring up Pikmin but Nintendo doesn't have that many other relatively new franchises to use as an example. That was a new concept and new franchise and it was typical Nintendo formula. But it engrossed me and all the Cube Mario spin-offs didn't.
The Nintendo formula is awesome and I don't think it will ever get old. It's just a good design strategy for games. It's the rehashing that hurts it. Though rehashing is a problem with everybody.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 08:04:07 PM
I'm crisscrossing a lot of thoughts so lets some it up like this:
Why wait for good third party support/specific games to come out on the Wii when you can just buy the alternative and get the games?
Is depriving one self of games because they don't exist on your chosen platform wise or just foolish?
The Wii is failing to get some main stream games which I REALLY want to play (RE5, GTAIV, SC4, Mass Effect, Bio Shock (almost forgot about that one). And while I will forever cherish all the great games Nintendo has brought my way I can no longer just "live" off of Nintendo games.
I'm not looking for originality, I'm just looking to have fun. Every Nintendo game this gen left me feeling like "I should be having more fun than this" but I wasn't. I had the most fun with the Wii playing Wii sports honestly. I don't know of many 360 games TBH. I do know I have fun playing at my friends home though from his collection and I do know I want to get GTAIV one way or another. With a stead job now why not take the plunge and buy a 360. At least I won't feel left out anymore.
I've just starved myself of certain games for too long trying to stick with just one system and it's just silly to stick with one system. I'm not saying 360 or PS3 has a line up of games that just make the Wii look terrible, it's that missing out on that systems handful of great games just because you want to stick with one company is plain foolish.
Edit: Thank you Ian for putting into words what I could not. That is exactly how I feel.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 22, 2008, 08:16:09 PM
Hey, it's your money, do what makes you happy...
But first, if you are just going to be buying sequels and ports regardless, how about buying Okami as well? :music;
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 22, 2008, 08:27:20 PM
This thread makes no sense to me because I don't have time to play many games, so the games that are out seem like TOO many. I actually wish the major game releases would trickle out like they used to.
I've barely touched brawl, i still need to finish NMH and Galaxy properly, tons of cars to unlock in Excitetruck still, not 1 but 2 trauma centers to get thru, and Mario Kart comes out when!?!?!?
My sentiments exaclty. I don't play Brawl much at all, and I don't even own NMH or Okami or all these major releases. I'd like to play them, but I just don't have the time.
But I think it also comes down to me phasing gaming out for the most part. If not for the Wii I would probably have stopped playing games almost entirely, but I'm still playing a lot less than usual.. Right now, I jump at certain games, like Mario Galaxy or Phoenix Wright.. but I'm just not inclined to play most games, even if they're supposed to be good. And don't get me started on PS3 and 360 games - I have virtually zero interest in all of them, save for the NHL series and perhaps Too Human.
I think something weird happened after I played Mario Galaxy.. I think I subconsciously realised that compared to that game, most other ones are almost a chore. I don't want to spend 35 or 40 hours playing Okami or whatever.. I'll get some enjoyment, but I don't find it worth it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 22, 2008, 08:41:18 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I think what I want right now is a game like Jungle Beat. Easy to pick up, allows for short sessions, and most importantly.. is just pure fun. I've said it before, but Jungle Beat was the most pure, unadulterated fun I had last generation, and I'm craving that right now. I'm more or less done with epic and tedious games - hopefully Tokyo EAD has started on something else already.
And also, for me a major test will be F-Zero Wii. GX was one of my top three GameCube games (maybe even my favourite one), and it's easily one of my favourite games ever. If the Wii version evokes the same feelings for me as SSBB did, then I'll be really disappointed. With Brawl, the new features and extras and all that were incredible for sure... but I didn't feel like it was a big enough jump. Obviously it's hard to mess with that formula, but from SSB64 to Melee the jump was huge. And it didn't help that I far enjoyed the quicker pace of Melee to the sluggish one of Brawl.
But anyway, hopefully Amusement Vision makes F-Zero again, and I get that same rush of adrenaline that I did in GX.
Wow, that was my first rant in a long time. And it wasn't very coherent - sorry about that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 22, 2008, 09:50:14 PM
Sounds more like you are burning out on gaming, period...Well, at least the good side of gaming... =)
Bill hits it perfectly. Anyone that's tired of Nintendo games has no idea what the rest of the industry is like.
If some of you think Smash Bros Brawl was too much like Melee, then you wont like ANY sequels on the 360/PS3. The jump between Melee to Brawl is greater then over 99% of all other sequels out there.
Same thing with Mario Kart. Everyone complains about the Mario Kart series not doing enough with each game, but then when you compare it to most other racing games out there, you'd see Nintendo actually does a lot more with each game then most 3rd parties.
It comes back to how everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. All of you that think the 360 and PS3 is the answer, don't know just how good you've had it with Nintendo and continue to have it with them.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 10:25:31 PM
Actually, I think Brawl wasn't enough like Melee (see: gameplay).
I love how many people here are taking up arms for Nintendo. God forbid someone ::gasps:: has fun on another system.
You're right I don't know how good I have it with Nintendo, I'll go back to not playing my Wii and not having fun.
::rolls eyes::
I'm not knocking Nintendo but why do people feel the need to defend a system? Why shove down someones throat how they should feel. It's just like Nintendo themselves telling us what we want and don't want.
Person: I have fun playing games on 360 or Ps3, I think I should get one. Fanboys: No you shouldn't. That's just stupid Nintendo has everything you want! Person: but I . . . Fanboys: No no you can't have fun anywhere else! Nintendo is the only place to have fun!
Come now that's just silly. I think we can all agree, limiting yourself to one system is stupid. Especially in this day and age.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 22, 2008, 10:36:59 PM
It comes back to how everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. All of you that think the 360 and PS3 is the answer, don't know just how good you've had it with Nintendo and continue to have it with them.
Or, alternatively, that Nintendo can do no wrong.... Listen to yourself? Is it possible that neither Nintendo nor 3rd parties are releasing terribly original sequels? What am I thinking? Of course, not. I'm talking to a Nintendo fan.....
I'm all for opinions, but when one essentially boils down to "Nintendo is perfect" every single time, I have a hard time taking it seriously. I'm not saying you specifically. I'm refering to most fans who can only view Nintendo through rose colored glasses.
I have to agree with Mashiro, here. I think it's ridiculous that someone gets forum mobbed by fans when he says that he had fun on another system.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 22, 2008, 10:55:58 PM
Now, I think that with Smash Bros, Sakurai and Nintendo did nearly everything they could to make it a worthy sequel. The production values were astounding (just look at the music) but the problem with that game is that.. Smash Bros just can't be changed much without making it a different franchise. It's not an action/adventure game; it's a fighting game with specific mechanics. And I think Melee was so good that nothing afterwards can be as fresh.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 11:03:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with liking and having fun with games on other systems, heck I have all 3 systems INCLUDING the PC. It was the way that Mashiro was presenting himself that got to me, it felt an awful like "Well I'm getting too mature for Nintendo games, so I'm going to move over to 360". Also it was far from getting nasty with him, I was poking fun at him and Bill was quite respectful. If you want to see nasty go to the gamefaqs's board or GONintendo.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 22, 2008, 11:26:25 PM
I really don't think I was presenting myself like that . . . and besides you have every system and a PC. Perhaps I am getting mature. Does that mean I'm too mature for Nintendo or it's game? No, it means my tastes have matured and expanded.
If I had to take away all your systems aside from Wii wouldn't you feel like you are missing out?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 22, 2008, 11:31:01 PM
I really don't think I was presenting myself like that . . . and besides you have every system and a PC. Perhaps I am getting mature. Does that mean I'm too mature for Nintendo or it's game? No, it means my tastes have matured and expanded.
If I had to take away all your systems aside from Wii wouldn't you feel like you are missing out?
You better not touch my PC, I just got done upgrading it! Seriously, I've been one of the few here that has defended the 360 and even PS3 to a lesser extent. Talking about "maturing" does come across as "Nintendo R 4 kidz" even if you may not intend it to be. I like to think of it as being interested in other games, not sure if maturing has anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 23, 2008, 12:16:07 AM
Talking about "maturing" does come across as "Nintendo R 4 kidz" even if you may not intend it to be. I like to thinkg of it as being interested in other games, not sure if maturing has anything to do with it.
My feelings exactly...And if you have stopped enjoying Nintendo games and are enjoying other games instead, that would be more of a "shift", not an "expansion", yes? ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 23, 2008, 02:15:23 AM
I really don't think I was presenting myself like that . . . and besides you have every system and a PC. Perhaps I am getting mature. Does that mean I'm too mature for Nintendo or it's game? No, it means my tastes have matured and expanded.
If I had to take away all your systems aside from Wii wouldn't you feel like you are missing out?
You better not touch my PC, I just got done upgrading it! Seriously, I've been one of the few here that has defended the 360 and even PS3 to a lesser extent. Talking about "maturing" does come across as "Nintendo R 4 kidz" even if you may not intend it to be. I like to thinkg of it as being interested in other games, not sure if maturing has anything to do with it.
Yeah, I don't get this. Golden Phoenix has all three systems, and we all know that. TONS of us on this forum have other systems. I don't... but, well.. TONS OF US do. We had to. We played GTA games, RPGs, shooters, etc. What's so wrong with playing a 360?
Man... I wish I had good access to a 360. I'd seriously buy GTA IV JUST for the radio channels. DMA was awesome back on the N64, and Rockstar is awesome now on the PS360. That's all there is to it.
But, all I have is a Wii and DS and really old computer, and I'm actually sitting in a better place than I've been in for quite awhile.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 23, 2008, 02:31:23 AM
Complain about the sequels on other platforms all you want, when you've only had Nintendo platforms before many cookie-cutter rehashes will still seem new to you because there was never a good game of that design on a Nintendo console.
As for third party support Ian, what about the fact that we got several exclusives from EA? And that the Wii has the best version of Pro Evo '08, a series the GC never got? Boom Blox doesn't seem like a big deal now but you can be pretty damn sure EA will make everyone and their mother know that Steven Spielberg made a game for the Wii. What about Monster Hunter Wii? The Japanese seem to love those games.
Besides, with "at this time" don't you mean post-E3?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2008, 03:44:24 AM
I view Wii vs PS3/Xbox 360 as more of a contrast then a comparison. Personally I think to get the complete spectrum of gaming experiencing owning a Wii and either a Xbox 360 or PS3. Wii has some amazing games that you cannot find anywhere else (Boom Blox!). The same can be said about 360/PS3 which are more traditional in their gaming experiences.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 23, 2008, 04:30:13 AM
Let's not forget that the Wii is an AND console. Reggie said so, so it must be true!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 23, 2008, 06:02:34 AM
Sorry guys I'm too busy playing Pinball Hall of Fame: Williams Collection and Dream Pinball 3D. :]
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 23, 2008, 07:56:51 AM
Here is my opinion, get a 360 Mashiro. There are DEFINITELY games worth playing on the system, especially if you like FPSs. I think everyone is just touchy on the subject because as Nintendo fans all you ever hear from 90% of the gaming world is how childish and immature Nintendo games are. Hell even the president of Epic said so, and you know when that happens just how bad it is. I think people also respect you and don't want to see you drop $400 on something that you seem so on the fence about.
But like I said, go buy the 360, now is the perfect opportunity. Best Buy is offering $50 GCs to anyone who picks up any version of the 360 and GTA IV together, can't go wrong with that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 23, 2008, 08:52:20 AM
I'm with KDR when it comes to the "grass is greener" argument. To anyone who grew up with one system, in this case nintendo branded ones, will eventually grow tired of the types of games it has to offfer. This is especially the case if you lived thru the N64 and GC periods where 3rd party support was lacking.
It's natural to want to experience more (gaming can be a selfish hobby afterall) and even though alot of us "know" that gaming experiences on other current platforms are "even more of 'more of the same," to someone who hasn't experienced them, or soemone in Mashiros case where he feels deprived of those experiences, it'll still feel like new.
If you're having fun playing your friends 360 and hitting up xbox live, get one. Just know that in another few years you might be burnt out on gaming in general (and not just the nintendo stuff) because these new experiences will feel old once you play them and their sequels more and more often.
Eventually you'll realize that gaming hasn't made that many leaps and bounds as we think. Making prettier graphics and adding more enemies gets tired when you start to feel like you're doing the same old things over and over again. Once you realize no matter what console you choose you'll be playing the same game with a new coat of paint on it, whether its this gen or next gen or 3 gens from now*. Thats when you have to decide if its still something you're into or not. I've been there, and obviously I'm still into gaming, but i won't kid myself and think that HD graphics or motion controls is anything groundbreaking, because i'll still be playing the games i did as a kid.
*I don't care if the next Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony/God forbit EA console has holographics displays or VR helmets, i'll still be playing a GAME where i'll either have to pass that guy and race to the finish, shoot a bunch of people until i get to some giant creature and find its weak point for massive damage, beat my way up to the top of a larg roster of insane fighters, jump around collecting stuff, manage inventory and magic points and level up a whole bunch, or catch 'em all.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 23, 2008, 10:12:31 AM
Thanks guys, that's some solid and much appreciated input. =)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 23, 2008, 10:38:49 AM
I myself am torn also, I love the Wii and everything it represents but sitting at my friends house playing Crackdown was just so much fun for me. I know that aside from that there isn't a lot on the 360 and to tell you the truth it is the same with Wii, I just don't find myself playing much of anything anymore.
I prefer to sit down and play some Shinobi III or Sim City on the VC than half of what is out now. I lost interest in gaming in the middle of the GC life, and I had a PS2 and an Xbox and gamed on my PC so it was like it hit me pretty hard, I just don't play much anymore. But I do not think the Wii doesn't have a great selection of games and some how 360 has better games, not even one bit, I liked Crackdown, so far that and Eternal Sonata were the two games I enjoyed the most.
Maybe it is I just haven't had money to buy anything new I don't know. I know that I like RPG's and so far, the 360 has those and the Wii doesn't but I don't think getting a 360 will make much difference. If I could afford all three consoles you can bet your bottom dollar I'd already have them. I got Wii on day one because I wanted one and for the first time in my entire life I got a console on day one because I did not want to miss on second of this "revolution" I had been hearing about for three years. but hey Ghostbusters is still coming to Wii and now Star Wars Force Unleashed is also so those are two 3rd party games that should satisfy any gamer.
So to sum it up, I am with everyone on the Wii has more than it's fair share of great games but I am with Ian and Mashiro in that it really does feel like it is lacking to some extent. Plus I enjoy fighting games and Wii doesn't have but 2 I like and they were better on GC. Maybe once I get some money coming in and I can afford to buy more games things will change until then I am happy with Virtual Console and the five Wii games I have.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 23, 2008, 10:50:44 AM
So to sum it up, I am with everyone on the Wii has more than it's fair share of great games but I am with Ian and Mashiro in that it really does feel like it is lacking to some extent.
Gaming in general is lacking, I don't think that can be restricted to just the Wii. Not enough devs willing to take risks anymore. I see potential in WiiWare for this reason though, and I think there will be some truly unique and stunning titles coming through there.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 23, 2008, 12:58:38 PM
I don't bother reading or caring about threads like this, however, a 360/PS3 doesn't interest me enough because I find those games on the other systems very easily forgettable and they all seem to have a sexual obsession with games that look "mature" or "cool." Which to me is a douche bag alert right there.
I mean I rarely ever give "mature" or "cool" games the time of day unless they are authentically innovative or a series I already knew I enjoyed. Otherwise, I hear the same game over and over when I hear my friends talk about their 360 games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 23, 2008, 01:18:51 PM
Aren't there only two systems that can reasonably make an argument for having a full breadth of gaming? The PC and DS?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 23, 2008, 02:27:23 PM
Gaming in general is lacking, I don't think that can be restricted to just the Wii. Not enough devs willing to take risks anymore.
Exactly, Nintendo isn't perfect, but the rest of the industry is just as bad and in some cases like EA, much much worse.
Unlike what some of you think, I also play Non Nintendo systems and I have all my life. And this generation so far is the worst I've seen in terms of innovation. Every other gen, companies would use the extra power of a system to do things they couldn't in the previous one, except now. So far most games that have been on the PS3/360 could have easily been done on the PS2. The extra power of these systems is only being used for graphics and that's about it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 23, 2008, 02:31:31 PM
PC and DS have games where you poke young maidens. So they have the widest spectrum.
"The extra power of these systems is only being used for graphics and that's about it."
Bingo. I wasn't crazy about what came out on xbox and ps2 yesterdecade, and the stuff that did interest me, and played, turned me off. So I've probably saved thousands of dollars this console cycle by going Wii-only (where I've spent quite a bit, defeating any "lack of gaming experiences" notion crap).
Oh, and the recent lightgun port revival on Wii has pretty much defeated half the motivation behind my discount Dreamcast.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2008, 04:14:07 PM
Dang that EA and their bland, uninspired crap like Spore. Dang them!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 23, 2008, 04:22:31 PM
Vaporware.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 23, 2008, 08:56:44 PM
Dang that EA and their bland, uninspired crap like Spore. Dang them!
One game doesn't change the company as a whole. Plus Spore turning out well is because Will Wright is behind it. Will Wright is one of the legends of the videogame industry, and the whole Sims series which Wright created is still making EA a ton of money right now. If EA was to piss Wright off and start telling him what to do, he could easily go someplace else. Considering how success Spore will be when it finally comes out, EA would not want to loss him right now.
But when you go to the rest of EA, it's business model is to product as many games as possible in the shortest amount of time. They don't encourage their employees be creative with series, but to just copy and paste the same game they released last year in a new package this year.
Now occasionally EA might release something good and innovative, but that's usually from a company that they just bought out who was making that game BEFORE EA bought them. And so if that game does well a sequel will be made right away in exactly 1 year that will have little change.
Of course this is if the game does well. If it doesn't then EA might just shut down that studio entirely.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2008, 09:10:18 PM
Dang that EA and their bland, uninspired crap like Spore. Dang them!
One game doesn't change the company as a whole. Plus Spore turning out well is because Will Wright is behind it. Will Wright is one of the legends of the videogame industry, and the whole Sims series which Wright created is still making EA a ton of money right now. If EA was to piss Wright off and start telling him what to do, he could easily go someplace else. Considering how success Spore will be when it finally comes out, EA would not want to loss him right now.
But when you go to the rest of EA, it's business model is to product as many games as possible in the shortest amount of time. They don't encourage their employees be creative with series, but to just copy and paste the same game they released last year in a new package this year.
Now occasionally EA might release something good and innovative, but that's usually from a company that they just bought out who was making that game BEFORE EA bought them. And so if that game does well a sequel will be made right away in exactly 1 year that will have little change.
Of course this is if the game does well. If it doesn't then EA might just shut down that studio entirely.
I am not going to get into this stupid EA bashing, it is childish and ridiculous, look at Bioware, look at Maxis, heck look at most of the studios that EA has bought they put out good to great games. Every big company has a tendency to churn out sequels left and right, INCLUDING Nintendo. Many churn out games as fast as they can (THQ and Take-Two are pretty bad at this). I'd really like to see all these examples of EA shutting down a studio entirely as well, at least a significant one. Funny thing I recall Capcom doing the exact same thing to the developer of Okami.
EA has been one of the biggest 3rd party innovators on Wii, everything from new IPs like MySims to stand out and polished titles like MoH2. Not only that but Boom Blox is blowing people away and is something unique and NEW. Perhaps the biggest offenders EA has when it comes to short development cycles are their sports titles (Then again like I stated Take Two does the same thing) the Burnout series, and Medal of Honor.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 23, 2008, 09:25:31 PM
EA sucks.
Where's Rolo to the Rescue 2 already.
Oh right. Nowhere.
EA sucks.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 23, 2008, 09:34:36 PM
I would call the SNES controller a traditional controller.
The Snes controller seems to be the most copied controller of all time, but when it first came out it was a bit revolutionary, I guess. It certainly had a major edge over the Genesis contrtoller, which was shaped like the batman symbol and only had three buttons. The SNES controller was the first one to have shoulder buttons, and the positioning of the X Y A B buttons was pretty much flawless. There is really nothing about the SNES controller that can be criticized, and that's why future controllers like the dualshock and Xbox controller are really just clones of the SNES controller, but with analog sticks tacked on.
Come to think of it, Nintendo seems to have come out with revolutionary controller with every system they made. Even the original NES controller was revolutionary, because it was the first one to have the D-pad, when in those days you mainly just had paddles and joysticks... The there was the weird three pronged controller thing for N64, which is certainly different, but not really practical. It was revolutionary for being the first to have an analog stick, but that advantage was lost because Sony tacked 2 onto their PS1 controller and stole the advantage.
The gamecube controller was probably the best one of the three controllers last gen, but this one didn't really offer anything new or innovating. I'd say the GC controller was one of the best traditional controller designs. To me, it feels good to hold onto, and the buttons are easy to figure out. I mean, the make the buttons different sizes, so you can feel the difference between one button and the next. Still, it just wasn't revolutionary. I won't say that was why the Gamecube failed as a console, but it probably was one of the factors for it.
Now we have the Wii's controller, and no one can claim this is something that's been done before. It's good that Nintendo is innovating once again, like they did with the NES and SNES, and maybe this is the key to the Wii's success. The N64 and GC didn't really offer anything very innovative controller wise, but all their other consoles did and were successful. Is that a coincidence?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 24, 2008, 02:08:13 AM
That was more or less a reply to animecyberrat comment of "since when has Nintendo ever made "traditional" controllers anyways?" =)
But yes SNEs controller is IMHO the best controller I've ever used, period.
I think you are shorting the N64 controller. It's design (while not the best) really worked well for a number of games and incorporated the use of a trigger button and an analog stick perfectly, to me at least it felt like this. Plus the allocated expansion space allowed for the industry standard rumble feature =D
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 24, 2008, 02:10:10 AM
Exactly, Nintendo isn't perfect, but the rest of the industry is just as bad and in some cases like EA, much much worse.
Eh, I don't think Nintendo fans should really bash EA, because EA has always supported Nintendo and included it in their multi-system games lineup. Granted, they do make a lot of multi-system crap, but at least that crap makes it's way to Nintendo hardware, and that's certainly more than can be said about many 3rd parties.
Plus, some of their games are pretty good. You just have to do a little research.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 24, 2008, 02:13:33 AM
Quote
The gamecube controller was probably the best one of the three controllers last gen, but this one didn't really offer anything new or innovating.
Hey hey hey, I'll defend digital click to my death. Plus, the Wavebird was the first decent RF wireless controller ever - I'd say it was innovative.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 24, 2008, 02:19:09 AM
The Wavebird . . . the controller Nintendo NEVER should have stopped making.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 24, 2008, 02:33:24 AM
The wavebird is like James Dean man, the Wavebird legend grows 'cause only the good die young.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 24, 2008, 02:41:15 AM
The only way I'd ever forgive Nintendo for stopping production of the WaveBird is if they released the WaveBird 2.0 with the added ability to use it as a Wii Classic Controller for things like Geometry Wars that don't support Cube controllers and a switch that lets you switch the button layout to SNES positions (A=B, B=Y, etc.) so it's usable in games like Super Mario World. This is never going to happen, so this will continue to be one of the biggest mistakes Nintendo has ever made.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: that Baby guy on April 24, 2008, 03:10:56 AM
That would be awesome. I'd need at least one of those. Besides, my wavebird receivers have gone missing, or at least, three of them have.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 24, 2008, 09:15:37 AM
i envy you wavebird using bastards.. i really do
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on April 24, 2008, 10:18:15 AM
I think Nintendo's online store still sells the receivers thatguy =D get em while you can!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 11:40:22 AM
Quote
The Snes controller seems to be the most copied controller of all time, but when it first came out it was a bit revolutionary, I guess. It certainly had a major edge over the Genesis contrtoller, which was shaped like the batman symbol and only had three buttons. The SNES controller was the first one to have shoulder buttons, and the positioning of the X Y A B buttons was pretty much flawless. There is really nothing about the SNES controller that can be criticized, and that's why future controllers like the dualshock and Xbox controller are really just clones of the SNES controller, but with analog sticks tacked on.
That was the point I was making, Nintendo never stick with a controller design they always try and do something new with each system. I was not bashing them because that is one of their best qualities. Sega tried to do something different with each console but it wasn't always a good thing, Dreamcast pads are the worst designed controllers ever.
To say SNES pad is most copied is a stretch though, the 3DO as well as Neo Geo both used a variation of the Genesis pad, Playstation copied SNES definitely but the Xbox pad was modeled after the DC controller and they mad improvements where they could but it looks, feels and plays nothing like a Dual Shock or a SNES pad with analog sticks. The only thing that remains the same is the button layout but even that is slightly different.
Nintendo maybe came up with the D-Pad first but Sega had a better D Pad and since SNES the Nintendo D Pads have never been that good.
Quote
It was revolutionary for being the first to have an analog stick,
Do some research pal, this always get thrown out there but the Atari 5200 had these a full decade before N64 came out. The 5200 pad had flaws but the stick they had worked a lot better than the N64 sticks and lasted a lot longer.
Quote
Hey hey hey, I'll defend digital click to my death. Plus, the Wavebird was the first decent RF wireless controller ever - I'd say it was innovative.
I'll give you the standard GC pads because they were great, but the Wavebird took a step back in removing the rumble. Also the Wavebird is an accessory like the Bongos or the Dance Pad, not the main controller. Ok it is more like the 6 Button pads of the Genesis days, an enhancement of the traditional controller but not the main controller everyone had. Still a good controller but nothing innovative.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 24, 2008, 01:43:50 PM
"The Snes controller seems to be the most copied controller of all time, but when it first came out it was a bit revolutionary, I guess."
I love the SNES controller. It's the absolute ideal digital controller design. Damn near any game that only requires digital input works perfectly on it. But even then it's more of an evolutionary design than a revolutionary one. The NES controller is largely hidden in the SNES design. It takes the NES design and adds to it. The SNES design is also largely hidden in the N64 design. At this point Nintendo was always building. It's funny that they didn't have backwards compatibility back then because their controllers always were so compatible with the last generation.
They were slipping a little with the N64 C buttons and losing the Select button. There's an easy workaround so you could still play any NES or SNES game on the N64 controller with no real issues. On the Cube though they stopped taking past conventions into account. The d-pad was literally an afterthought. The face button arrangement was different. There was actually one less action button than the N64 and since the Z button was added at developers' request the original design included two less buttons and no d-pad at all. The Cube controller really isn't ideally designed for any game but Gamecube exclusives. Even ports from the other current consoles would occasionally run into issues. The Gamecube is more revolutionary because it's clear Nintendo really didn't care about what came before.
The Wii controller obviously took that philosophy WAY further. The remote by itself is incompatible with every Nintendo game system except the NES and Gameboy. Games made for the Genesis in f*cking 1989 can't use the remote for a controller without some annoying workaround. The large incompatibility with whole generations of videogames seperates it from the SNES controller. The SNES controller was suitable for virtually every non-PC game ever made at that point with the exception of the Intellivision and paddle controlled games. So the remote doesn't compare. With the remote Nintendo was truly starting over and throwing years of controller conventions out the window. They had never really done that before, though they experimented a bit with the Cube design.
"The 5200 pad had flaws but the stick they had worked a lot better than the N64 sticks and lasted a lot longer."
You are literally the ONLY person I've ever heard say anything nice about 5200 controllers. :) The sticks were non-centering. Everyone complains about that. That little difference is probably why the N64 changed videogames forever and the 5200 was seen as a major Atari misstep.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 24, 2008, 02:00:32 PM
Well to be fair the N64 Controller had the first analog thumbstick. Though the 5200 created the concept years earlier, the thumbstick design was clearly superior and continues to be used today. Even still around the same time Nintendo released the N64 Controller, Sega released the 3D controller with NiGHTs and Sony shortly thereafter released the dual shock.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 24, 2008, 02:05:41 PM
I think Nintendo's online store still sells the receivers thatguy =D get em while you can!
It doesn't, I went to check when I saw his post.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 24, 2008, 02:11:08 PM
God I love Nintendo controllers. All of them. Especially the N64 one. But not the VB one...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 24, 2008, 02:18:00 PM
The VB one is comfortable, just ugly as shat.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 03:16:36 PM
I wasn't defending it as superior design, but it didn't break as easily and worked far better for arcade games than the N64 stick. The thumb stick was a good idea, but every N64 pad I have ever owned is now broken. They were only good until Mario Party came out.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 24, 2008, 03:36:42 PM
Well, I only tried it once, that's true. Also, Sony stole the prong design from it.
LOL they kinda do look similar.
I remember telling my cousin, who owned the ps1, that the controller was just like the Virtual Boys and he looked at me with a blank stare...
This was the days before i had the interwebs to let me google a picture of what the VB was since, you know, it was SOOooo popular...
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Deguello on April 24, 2008, 04:26:35 PM
Quote
I wasn't defending it as superior design, but it didn't break as easily
They never worked right to begin with, rat. At least the N64 pads deteriorated from working. The Atari 5200 was an absolute disaster and it was its cellphone controller that confused the hell out of the populace and led to Atari's fall.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 24, 2008, 04:35:47 PM
The SNES controller might have had the NES controller as a subset but how exactly would you have to design a controller so that would no longer be true? The NES controller was so simple that it's almost impossible to avoid similarities.
Adding to the controller keeps backwards compatibility but think about it, how ergonomic would the Wiimote be with four face buttons (where the 1 and 2 buttons are ATM), two shoulder buttons and two analog sticks? You cannot keep adding, not for an interface! That just wrecks ergonomy. It'd also make the Wiimote fail its goal which was extending the market to people who didn't play games before the Wii. Buttons are there and people naturally assume that every button is needed, more buttons make the interface seem daunting and difficult to understand. The Wiimote has a huge number of inputs but they aren't as blunt as sticking more buttons on the top, the motion and pointer sensors are pretty much hidden while providing additional functionality. I'm pretty sure with some smart thinking you could convert most traditional game controls into controls that fit on a Wiimote plus Nunchuk, for most games only a few buttons are used often (and if you use too many often the controls are most likely confusing anyway) with others being stuff like selecting weapons or magic, displaying maps or menus, stuff that can be bound to gestures or hard to reach buttons without making it harder to control.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 04:59:13 PM
Mine worked just fine. I never had any problems. SO what if they weren't self centering or whatever the complaint is, I played endless hours of Joust and Pac-Man without any complaints. I think people who complain now are doing so through hind sight, not looking at it from the eyes they had when they were younger. At the time it worked fine.
Now, over 20 years latter sure not so much anymore we have batter technology. I don't think the controller had one impact AT ALL on the system as a failure, the lack of original games played a large part in that along with being released during the great crash *and* having two hardware configurations to chose from at a time when people weren't used to that concept yet had a hand in it's demise along with the continued success and support of the 2600 even after it's release.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 24, 2008, 05:30:33 PM
Adding to the controller keeps backwards compatibility but think about it, how ergonomic would the Wiimote be with four face buttons (where the 1 and 2 buttons are ATM), two shoulder buttons and two analog sticks? You cannot keep adding, not for an interface! That just wrecks ergonomy. It'd also make the Wiimote fail its goal which was extending the market to people who didn't play games before the Wii.
I disagree. The Wii's appeal lies in seeing other people play and wanting to try it out. People don't see the buttons immediately. They see someone swinging a remote around. Games like Wii Sports sparingly use buttons, if at all. Instructing someone how to play is extremely simple, relying primarily on motion controls rather than button imput so I don't think extra buttons contracts Nintendo's expanded market goal.
Still, what it comes down to is Nintendo shouldn't be afraid of adding buttons to the controller, but 3rd parties shouldn't feel the need to use every button just because the buttons are there. Assassin's Creed and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Metal Gear series are notorious being button whores.
I'll leave it at that since this debate is pretty old and off topic (then again, we've been off topic for some time now).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 24, 2008, 05:35:20 PM
If Ninty's end goal was to only to get people to buy the Wii off of Wii Sports, then yeah, they would have added more buttons...
But no, what Ninty wants to do is to introduce more people to games and then build them up to the more hardcore games (which is what they did with Mario Galaxy, a hardcore game that has a simple control scheme)...The mass number of buttons would scare potential gamers away from these types of games, even if they did purchase it based off of watching others alone...(Also, saying that 3rd parties shouldn't be encouraged to use all the buttons would make things even MORE confusing...Having to use ALL of a smaller number of buttons is far more appealing than using half of many...)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 05:55:24 PM
Quote
I'll leave it at that since this debate is pretty old and off topic (then again, we've been off topic for some time now).
If we had more games to play we wouldn't be in this predicament now would we ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 24, 2008, 06:09:32 PM
But forcing 3rd parties to make compromises to their control scheme due to a lack of buttons is not appealing and many of them have made their displeasure known.
And who said anything about a mass number of buttons? Take the A button and make it 2-4 buttons. How is that any more complicated than a DS which has 4 face buttons?
Also, I don't buy the whole "build them up to be more hardcore gamers" thing. Sounds like BS to me. New players aren't "graduating" to more "hardcore" games like Super Mario Galaxy. Gamers are buy games like Super Mario Galaxy. The people who were (re)introduced to gaming through Wii Sports buy crap like Carnival Games to keep playing games that don't require much or any button imput. You want proof? I work at a videostore with a game retailer inside of it. I suggest Super Mario Galaxy to every customer who asks me what good games are on the Wii and they ALWAYS pick crap like Carnival Games. It is the most rented game at my Hollywood Video. They're not building up towards anything....
But forcing 3rd parties to make compromises to their control scheme due to a lack of buttons is not appealing and many of them have made their displeasure known.
Yeah, well, these are the developers that need a button for every little action, which is hilarious over-kill...Okami is a recent perfect example of using every button fully and effectively EVEN THOUGH it was originally developed for the most button-hog controller of all-time...This so-called "displeasure" results from just plain LAZINESS...
(Also, I never said that Ninty's plan is working, but I don't really buy a single person's accounts of what games sell to what kind of person as evidence of anything in the first place, no insult intended...)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 24, 2008, 06:38:13 PM
Quote
This so-called "displeasure" results from just plain LAZINESS...
Or DISPLEASURE.....
Not every game can work out perfectly on the Wii remote and if you think so, you're living in a dream world. For example, I thought that Metroid Prime 3 did the best that it could with the Wii remote though it certainly could've been better with more buttons, namely mapping missles to the D-pad and holding the minus button to switch visors.
Quote
I don't really buy a single person's accounts of what games sell to what kind of person as evidence of anything in the first place, no insult intended
Take it or leave it. I just can't imagine it being much different elsewhere.... otherwise we wouldn't have the influx of mini-game collections we currently have. Someone has to be buying them or there wouldn't be so many on store shelves.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 06:45:44 PM
I would already own it if I HAD MONEY. My problem isnot there are no games to play my problem is I CANT AFFORD them. Before I was in this slump I was doing great spending over $200 a week on video games, I had all the major releases for GC and I had a PS2 and an Xbox plus most of the classic consoles even some of the hard to find games for Saturn. I would LOVE to be out buying every single game Wii has to offer that interests me and believe me theres more than enough that I want to play I just can't.
I know my post was a joke and yours likely was too, but man it is depressing me the more people talk about all these games they're playing and the last game I bought with my own money was Resident Evil 4 Wii edition right when it came out. I was in a good mood now your post has pushed me back into my depression :(
In the next couple of weeks I will be back to working and I am selling a lot more stuff now than I did last year so things are looking to improve. Wii already is flooded with VC so I am doing my best with as little money as I have. I had to trade GC games in for Wii games and that was depressing in and of itself, just giving all those games to Gamestop.
I haven't played Okami yet but it is one of the games I really, really want to play.
But I promise as soon as I have money I will get Brawl first, then Okami is on the list of games to get right away.
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Take it or leave it. I just can't imagine it being much different elsewhere.... otherwise we wouldn't have the influx of mini-game collections we currently have. Someone has to be buying them or there wouldn't be so many on store shelves.
Around here it's like Wii doesn't even exist, everyone has a 360 and wants a PS3 and talks trash on Wii all day long, so going by my own experiences Wii is a worse dud than GC, and I don't buy that one bit. Not saying your wrong just saying things are different in every town I am sure.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 24, 2008, 06:56:18 PM
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Adding to the controller keeps backwards compatibility but think about it, how ergonomic would the Wiimote be with four face buttons (where the 1 and 2 buttons are ATM), two shoulder buttons and two analog sticks?
Well obviously they couldn't use the current shape and keep everything. They had to remove funcationality and risk incompatibility to get the shape. The only way I could see it working any other way is if the remote slid into a traditional controller shell. For games that require just the remote you remove it from the rest of the controller. I recall that design was batted around when the Wii was first revealed. I don't remember if it was official stuff or just speculation.
Though really the remote, nunchuk, classic controller combo is pretty close to perfect. If they had bundled all three components together there would probably be no control issues at all. The problem is the classic controller is considered more of a VC controller because it's sold seperately. Had they included it with each system then it likely would have been treated as what it should be: an alternative for when motion control makes no sense.
It's like how for years it used to be that some games worked best with a keyboard and mouse and some worked best with a controller. The remote is really just a third option. It's too different to be an outright replacement and overall standard but is useful enough to be one of multiple standards.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 24, 2008, 07:06:14 PM
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Around here it's like Wii doesn't even exist, everyone has a 360 and wants a PS3 and talks trash on Wii all day long, so going by my own experiences Wii is a worse dud than GC, and I don't buy that one bit. Not saying your wrong just saying things are different in every town I am sure.
Well, of course things are different in every town, but the degree of which is what I'm pointing out. Just looking at store shelves or even a comprehensive list of Wii games should tip anyone off as to what kinds of games there are more of on the Wii. There's a reason the Wii has so many mini-game collections. People are buying them and who do you think the vast majority of those people are? All of those people can be Kairon........
And dude, you used to spend over $200 a week on games? Jeez, I just got a full-time job in addition to working part time at the video store and I still don't think I make enough money to spend anywhere near that much on gaming on a weekly basis.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 24, 2008, 07:10:43 PM
I worked my ass off and did a lot of business on the side. Plus I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment with my sister and her roommate so we split the bills three ways.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 25, 2008, 12:15:57 AM
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Also, I don't buy the whole "build them up to be more hardcore gamers" thing. Sounds like BS to me. New players aren't "graduating" to more "hardcore" games like Super Mario Galaxy. Gamers are buy games like Super Mario Galaxy. The people who were (re)introduced to gaming through Wii Sports buy crap like Carnival Games to keep playing games that don't require much or any button imput.
Oh yeah? Then how come when WiiFit came out and expanded the Wii userbase in Japan, Super Mario Galaxy's sales got a HUGE boost? The same thing happened with Nintendogs and the DS - traditional games all sold better because of nongames.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 25, 2008, 12:19:46 AM
And also rat, I will never respect your opinions if you don't buy Mario Galaxy.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 25, 2008, 12:46:50 AM
It is on my list of games to get I assure you.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 25, 2008, 05:25:59 AM
I love the SNES controller. It's the absolute ideal digital controller design. Damn near any game that only requires digital input works perfectly on it. But even then it's more of an evolutionary design than a revolutionary one. The NES controller is largely hidden in the SNES design. It takes the NES design and adds to it. The SNES design is also largely hidden in the N64 design. At this point Nintendo was always building. It's funny that they didn't have backwards compatibility back then because their controllers always were so compatible with the last generation.
BTW, has anyone else thought the Wii's classic controller is imitating the style of the SNES controller? I don't own a classic controller myself yet, but I am anxious to get one and see how similar it feels to the old SNES style. It just might be that the Wii's classic controller is everything any traditional controller ever ought to be.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: that Baby guy on April 25, 2008, 07:37:00 AM
The classic controller, I believed, was an attempt to mix the SNES controller with the Gamecube controller, and in my opinion, it ended up worse than either. That's just me, though. I can certainly see how you can favor the classic controller. It's a matter of taste, really.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 25, 2008, 08:12:54 AM
Adrock: The minus button made sense IMO, you'd have needed a mad number of buttons otherwise that would just get in the way or be hard to find blindly. You've got a cursor so why not use it to select something? The huge "buttons" make it easy to pull off quickly. The missile on the dpad was strange but not a control problem. I was more surprised to find that there weren't other weapons that used the other dpad directions.
Splitting the A button into four small buttons would be really confusing, it'd give no visual anchor for which one is the "ok" button, four buttons are harder to hit properly when you aren't looking and you'd lose the pinch gesture used for grabbing.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 25, 2008, 04:35:12 PM
To each his own, I guess. I would've preferred that they just let me press the minus button to scroll through the different visors like in Super Metroid where you scroll through the missles, X-ray visor etc. And I just hate when anything is mapped to the D-pad (for games that use the nunchuck too). It's just not comfortable.
Splitting the A button into four small buttons would be really confusing, it'd give no visual anchor for which one is the "ok" button, four buttons are harder to hit properly when you aren't looking and you'd lose the pinch gesture used for grabbing.
Tell that to all the expanded market DS owners out there. If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap. There are ways to make it easier for people if in fact they need to be. Convex/concave buttons (like the SNES), different shaped/sized buttons (like Gamecube, but not as ugly) and so on.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 25, 2008, 04:45:47 PM
If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap.
There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT. Throw anything extraneous at them and forget it, they will struggle. I have seen it more times than I can count. Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 25, 2008, 04:56:59 PM
If someone can operate a standard TV or DVD remote, they should have no problem dealing with 2-3 extra buttons. I don't want to hear this confusion crap.
There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT. Throw anything extraneous at them and forget it, they will struggle. I have seen it more times than I can count. Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.
QFT. Also, STT.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 25, 2008, 05:13:54 PM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2441855976_234d5aefec.jpg) I'M INTIMIDATED RITE NOW
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 25, 2008, 05:16:26 PM
Adrock, with the DS most games that use the touchscreen extensively don't use the buttons. When the Wii first came out, I had the idea to put the D-Pad on the bottom and have four buttons at the top. But whoever said it before is right; trying to figure out button combinations while using motion control is a terrible idea. And the Wii remote + nunchuck is quite adequate for most games out there.. except for niche ones like 2D fighters, which can use the classic controller.
If you look at Wii remote prototypes from Nintendo, you'll see that they also considered using more buttons, but then decided to stick with only an A button. And it was the right choice.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: vudu on April 25, 2008, 05:31:21 PM
There is the hole in your logic, most people CAN'T operate a standard TV or DVD remote. They understand power on/off button, channel up/down, and volume up/down buttons ... and that's IT.
That's 5 buttons (and 6 if you consider that they'd have to know or at least, figure out, what TV/Video does to even play videogames). How is it that with the hundreds of remote controls out there, people, who by your own admission only understand 5 buttons, couldn't figure out a Wii Remote with 2-3 more buttons?
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Nintendo wanted to pull in this same demographic, and to do that they needed a controller that doesn't even look intimidating. Give developers more buttons and they WILL use them even if they could think of a way to simplify the controls without simplifying the gameplay.
Um... ok. So, tell me, why does the DS not look intimidating when it has more buttons, but the Wii remote does? Why do some developers not use all the buttons on DS, even if they can?
And the Wii remote + nunchuck is quite adequate for most games out there...
Developers on the Wii have no choice but to make due with that they have. It's not like adding 2-3 buttons makes the Wii remote and nunchuck inadequate somehow. And the point is to get rid of the classic controller.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 26, 2008, 11:36:23 AM
The DS does looks intimidating I'm sure. If you were to poll the demographic, I would also bet that the majority of it is different than the Wii's. Games that do appeal to the same demographic are advertised with noone even touching the buttons, just drawing on the screen, and most people I know aren't intimidated by writing.
As far as not understanding more buttons goes, it's easy to explain that one. People aren't interested in learning more buttons. It's not that they couldn't it's just that they don't care to. If they know going in, the most they have to worry about is pointing at a screen and pushing 2 buttons, they can make the time investment to learn it. If it was instead 5 or 6 buttons to worry about to control the game, I'd bet for most you have passed the threshold. My dad is the perfect example of this. The guy won't touch a game controller, but I had him playing Wii Sports last Christmas for hours. He is the type of guy who doesn't mess with the TV remote much because he doesn't care to learn what all the buttons do. If the Wii was any more complicated than it was, I guarantee he wouldn't have bothered. Once you start telling people push this button or that button and they aren't clearly obvious to the player without having to look at the controller, you have lost them.
My last question to you is, don't you think Nintendo did extensive market testing with this to see where the button threshold was? I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they did. The success they've had with the Wii is not accidental and I would guess that with the controller being the main attraction, they market tested the hell out of it to make sure it worked with their target demograpic perfectly.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2008, 12:37:22 PM
I really don't understand why everyone is just throwing around the same words and phrases that Nintendo does since they sling as much BS as any other company in the industry.
Nintendo contradicts its own philosophy with the DS. If buttons are so damn complicated, why did they add even more buttons from GBA to DS? And aren't two displays more complicated than one? If Nintendo was so concerned with intimidating people, why did they seemingly over-complicate their handheld? But, people aren't having trouble with the DS. They see the buttons, but if the software they're playing doesn't use it, then the buttons being there don't matter.
The problem some of you are having is that you're assuming that if there are more buttons on the Wii remote, it would automatically frustrate and intimidate casual and non-gamers. That's simply not true. It wouldn't matter if the Wii remote had more buttons if they had no/optional function in certain games. You can use the A button in Wii Tennis, but you don't have to. Furthermore, anything taken out of context can potentially drive people away. However, the Wii remote is always shown within the context of its function. No one sees the buttons right away. They see people playing and that's what piques people's interests.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 26, 2008, 01:56:28 PM
I think the one part you are mistaken on is the demographic of the two systems. Nintendo built the Wii around the casual demographic, the DS however they made a grab for the Wii demographic with Brain Age, after the system came out. The Wii has a much older, more casual fan base than the DS, guaranteed. The DS demographic seems to consist more of children - teens and of course the more serious gaming demographic.
We could beat this to death, but it stands that the Wii has what it has in the way of buttons, and I have yet to see a game that NEEDED more. Between the Nunchuk and the Wiimote, there are enough buttons to play any game. Like I said earlier, if a game needs more buttons than what is there, chances are they could re-engineer the game to use less buttons while not changing the gameplay experience, Nintendo has proved this with their game time after time.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 26, 2008, 04:28:02 PM
Nintendo already did testing with multi-buttomed Wiimote prototypes. And let's not forget that the Wiimote is a gaming device, not a controld evice. There is no reaction component to changing TV channels, you don't lose the cable if you can't find a button. But the ergonomic strictures for a game device is much more stringent, which is why you see people already complaining about needing to use the D-Pad or minus buttons. More buttons simply wouldn't ergonomically work on the Wiimote, you'd have to be shifting your handhold, which is a big no-no if you want to attract the uninitiated to gaming. Just try walking around town in DQ Swords, ugh.
In fact, the Wiimote makes plenty of sense in it's current style. One button for your thumb, one button for your index finger, and just wave it around. Miyamoto's been moving towards this concept ever since the big GC button and his interest in one-button gaming as seen in Kirby's Air Ride. With the Wii, he may have finally gotten it right.
As for the DS, it's a chimaera. That's why it's got so much on it. But some of the most successful games on the DS, actually, completely ignore the buttons. Especially the ones that "expand the market," like Brain Age or Nintendogs. In fact, by holding the DS in the "book" position, Nintendo is basically hiding the buttons from casual players. Perhaps if Nintendo has a way of hiding the extra buttons on a Wiimote, that could've been a good solution. But the Wiimote as simplified-removable controller from larger shell idea was already considered by Nintendo, in fact, it was the first idea they considered and eventually moved away from. If I recall, actually, the idea for the nunchuck as a seperate control unit (hence causing the move away from unified controller with detachable wiimote) came from a western developer: Retro.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 26, 2008, 05:36:50 PM
I really don't understand why everyone is just throwing around the same words and phrases that Nintendo does since they sling as much BS as any other company in the industry.
It's a lot like Apple fans, no? There's an answer for everything.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2008, 06:31:18 PM
I have yet to see a game that NEEDED more. Between the Nunchuk and the Wiimote, there are enough buttons to play any game.
Well, since we've gone way off topic, I think this is a good oportunity to steer it back to the question posed in the beginning. We haven't seen a game that needed more buttons because 3rd parties just aren't releasing them on the Wii. They aren't taking the Wii seriously. You say that developers could re-engineer games to use less buttons, but why should they have to? We've seen developers choose not use all the buttons on the DS, so that's not the problem. This is another case of Nintendo marching to their own beat. Their "take it or leave it" attitude comes off as quite selfish and 3rd parties are responding by not supporting the Wii as well as we all know they could.
The DS has captured a very wide demographic. So, I ask, why can't the Wii do the same? Why is there a need to adhere to casual gamers? Why can't Nintendo adhere to both? There's really no good reason why they can't. The Wii is another result of Nintendo's backwards thinking. It's like they didn't know why the Gamecube wasn't more successful.
I have yet to hear an argument that reaches past Nintendo's own mantra. Nintendo fans have conditioned themselves to simply accepting whatever Nintendo tells/gives them. I understand how pointless this debate is. The Wii remote is what it is and that's not going to change. I guess I just can't understand blind devotion. Fans demand that 3rd parties fall in line and adhere to Nintendo. That's bullsh*t. I'm not saying the opposite should be true, but what happened to compromise? So yeah, just like Apple fans........
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 26, 2008, 06:36:09 PM
Um Nintendo does support both the casual and hardcore demographics, so right there the argument falls apart with games like Galaxy, MP3, BWii, and others. The Wii has a been a phenomena because of its diversity in gamers, and Nintendo has been doing their best to adhere to both. Third Parties HAVE NOT for the most part, and I blame the 3rd parties for that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 26, 2008, 07:13:14 PM
Yikes, the fact that this is still even a debate 1.5 years into the cycle demonstrates those that "whined" back then had a point, much to apologists' dismay.
Nintendo technically does support both types of audiences. They actually decided to become a jack of all trades and master of none a couple years before Wii came out. So both audiences have customers that twiddle their thumbs until something they really want comes to market.
Substandard 3rd party support is not a new phenomena resulting from the Wii. Nintendo hasn't been strong on 3rd party support for 3 cycles. At some point one needs to stop blaming everybody except Nintendo for that decade-plus of skimpy performance. If Nintendo can't or chooses not to advance 3rd party relations in all that time, even with a market-leading console, then plenty of blame rests with them if they don't adequately fill the gaps.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 26, 2008, 07:54:30 PM
I have yet to hear an argument that reaches past Nintendo's own mantra. Nintendo fans have conditioned themselves to simply accepting whatever Nintendo tells/gives them. I understand how pointless this debate is. The Wii remote is what it is and that's not going to change. I guess I just can't understand blind devotion. Fans demand that 3rd parties fall in line and adhere to Nintendo. That's bullsh*t. I'm not saying the opposite should be true, but what happened to compromise? So yeah, just like Apple fans........
I can already see where this thread is headed..... Saying someone is blindly devoted is inflammatory and unnecessary. Many of use are quite happy with what Nintendo has provided us with. As a person who owns a 360 as well I can openly and honestly state that what I see on the Wii even in the way of third parties is better ... for me. That doesn't mean I'm blindly devoted, it just means that I have particular tastes that seem to only be satisfied on the Wii. I'm sure this holds true for many other "blindly devoted fanboys" as well. They don't complain because they aren't unhappy.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 26, 2008, 08:24:35 PM
Substandard 3rd party support is not a new phenomena resulting from the Wii. Nintendo hasn't been strong on 3rd party support for 3 cycles. At some point one needs to stop blaming everybody except Nintendo for that decade-plus of skimpy performance. If Nintendo can't or chooses not to advance 3rd party relations in all that time, even with a market-leading console, then plenty of blame rests with them if they don't adequately fill the gaps.
I don't disagree. I'd just like to propose that Nintendo has made huge strides in third party support and breadth of game library with the Wii. We're still substandard, but Nintendo's actually managed to enact positive change in this field after their failed N64 and GC initiatives.
This is the first time I've ever been confident that Nintendo's making real progress on the "Third Party Question." And because of this progress, the Wii's library feels so much healthier and promising than the GC's. From RE:UC, NMH, and TC:NB (and Atlus games in general) to Strong Bad, We Cheer, and Deadly Creatures, I don't think we've had a wider choice of games without resorting to vaporware.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2008, 08:39:41 PM
That's 5 buttons (and 6 if you consider that they'd have to know or at least, figure out, what TV/Video does to even play videogames). How is it that with the hundreds of remote controls out there, people, who by your own admission only understand 5 buttons, couldn't figure out a Wii Remote with 2-3 more buttons?-3 buttons makes the Wii remote and nunchuck inadequate somehow. And the point is to get rid of the classic controller.
Well, as I see it most people don't even use all the functions of their remotes. They'll figure out how to turn it on and off, and work the channels and the volume and that's about it. If they need to, they can hunt and peck for the mute or menu button, but chances are they won't have this button's position memorized.
So you're asking why can't people figure out a video game controller which only has 2-3 more buttons? See my explanation above. Plus, in video games timing is crucial. With a tv remote, you have all the time to hunt and peck for that menu button, but in a video game you'll probably be dead before you find it. And this is precisely why many older folks can't handle video games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 26, 2008, 08:56:40 PM
I think it's worth examining that the Wii has the most console exclusives according to GamingTarget.
And that the Wii at about 1.5 years of life has 14 of those exclusives rated 75 or higher by metacritic, whereas the 360 had 15 exclusives rated above 75 according to metacritic at the same point in its life cycle.
In fact, the PS3 is accruing quality exclusives, as well as exclusives period, at much slower rates than the Wii. PS3 fans are the ones who should really be arguing about what we're talking about.
So if the Wii is outperforming the other consoles in number of exclusives, and perfectly on track in terms of number of quality exclusives, how can we narrow down specific criticisms?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 26, 2008, 09:03:08 PM
Yikes, the fact that this is still even a debate 1.5 years into the cycle demonstrates those that "whined" back then had a point, much to apologists' dismay.
Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be. The Wii has been great gaming wise, SMG, Corruption, No More Heroes, Zack and Wiki, being just a few of the games that are stellar titles. Third party support, while far from perfect has improved from the GC era. Heck look at Pro Evolution Soccer which has turned the sports formula on its head and has finally revolutionized it.
Also people conveniently forget how closely Nintendo has tried to work with companies like Ubi Soft. We have to realize that the Wii concept is still very fresh, it is a completely new way of experiencing games and it has a broader market then ANY console before it. It is STILL going to take time for 3rd parties to become accustomed to a market that may not always gravitate towards games that sell well on 360/PS3.
You want to know the biggest problem pushing 3rd Parties towards making more "casual" games? It is not Nintendo, but the people that end up buying those games and making them profitable. Until a company really goes all out on a game, with a big budget that proves to be a success 3rd parties are going to stick with what is successful regardless of what Nintendo does.
I think people expect far too much from the Wii in such a short time, like the DS, it takes time for developers to actually take shots at crafting more traditional games on such an untraditional market and console. New territory is something that is always scary. I think the best thing Nintendo can do is show through their own stuff what can be done with Wii, and hope 3rd parties take some chances.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 26, 2008, 10:23:54 PM
I agree with you GP, but this gen one big negative stigma it's actually the PS3 and 360 since publishers and devs have to spend more resources on making high definition assets, more man hours making those assets, longer development cycles which makes publishers go into a safe mode for something that will sell and unfortunately means a lot of yearly sequels, generic types of games that will appeal to the male teen - adult demographic with little room for the unique games on those two platforms.
Since development is cheapest on Wii DS and PSP we could see a lot more niche, unique and in a way every type of genre and in a way we do see that, on these three platforms we have "testing the water games", revivals of classic genres(especially on the Wii), ports (mostly on Wii and PSP, or PSP to PS2).
I think that this generation is a mess though considering how many revisions the PS3 and 360 have gone through, publishers playing it safe on the HD consoles, and all three console manufacturers making mistakes on consoles (MS with the worst console and customer support reliability,DRM issues, banning people on live due to expired credit cards, Sony not stocking parts for the 20/60 GB units for repairs, Sony cutting PS2 support on the 40GB units, Nintendo's storage issues and channel limits, and the hotly debated friend code debacle(even though I don't have problem using friend codes one unified friend code would be nice).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 26, 2008, 11:13:27 PM
So you're asking why can't people figure out a video game controller which only has 2-3 more buttons? See my explanation above. Plus, in video games timing is crucial. With a tv remote, you have all the time to hunt and peck for that menu button, but in a video game you'll probably be dead before you find it.
If the average person can handle at least 5 different buttons and use them at will, what's stopping them from using a Wii remote with 2-3 more buttons? At some point, they had to find those buttons on the TV/DVD remote and learn what they do so it's not like people are incapable of doing so. You don't hunt and peck for buttons if you know what they do and where they are. That learning what different buttons do is part of playing many videogames. Sure, not everyone wants to play games that require more advanced controls, but no one is forcing them to. That's the beauty of the motion controls in the Wii remote. Casual gamers will never have to learn button combinations if they don't want to. There are plenty of games that use one button only to start the game, the exclusively use motion controls.
I think the best thing Nintendo can do is show through their own stuff what can be done with Wii, and hope 3rd parties take some chances.
Hasn't Nintendo been leading through example for the last 11-12 years? Yeah, lot of good that did........
When it comes to support on the Wii, I blame both Nintendo and 3rd parties. On one hand, I feel Nintendo's focus on casual gamers (which includes but isn't limited to the Wii remote itself, as we've discussed) is making publishers hesitant to support the platform with more hardcore titles. Nintendo, additionally, hasn't done as much as they probably should to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, play the odds. The install base is too large to ignore.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 27, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
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Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be.
Oh, I'm being grouped now. Awesome. :) Ironically, the response from the start to "people like Ian and I" has been, "you're so impatient. wait for E3, wait for TGS, wait for GDC, wait for DICE, wait for [vague] 2008 then you will totally see, etc" and one by one not a whole lot of results seemed to pan out. About a year and a half later, the line has been re-drawn enough times that perhaps it's time that the people that insisted on drawing and redrawing it reflect a little on the labels they have been quick to issue all the while. I digress.
Running off lists of games we personally like is easy. I can do the same, but it unfortunately has gaping holes between their releases. Anecdotal lists don't prove anything either way, including stubbornness, when there has always been cash in hand waiting to be spent. The 3rd party situation can be fluffed up any way desired, lists or not, but it won't change that there are issues.
I am aware that wanting more AAA games (from all parties) to fill gaps is controversial and evidently worthy of argument, but consumers are allowed to be demanding. As for adaptability, that's not the consumer's problem either (other than being handed the results).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 27, 2008, 02:07:04 AM
I am sorry Adrock but that silly. On a TV remote or DVD remote you pick up the remote and press the volume button what once every couple of hours? Even channel surfing only requires a constant pressing of either the up or the down key. There is no thought involved.
Playing a video game you are not only dealing with the button presses, which are more frequent and come in various combinations, you also have to press the D-pad, Joystick or wave the remote around in combination to the button presses. For most non gamers that can be a bit much.
Classic example, Mario and Tetris. Tetris requires moving a piece left or right and rotating one direction or another, the game can be played using only 2 buttons. More casual gamers play Tetris. Mario, just the basics, requires one to be constantly using the D-pad/Joystick or what have you to move your man on screen. In it's basic form yu have running and jumping, which is mapped to two different buttons and works in conjunction with the movement input device.
Mario games are a lot more complicated than running and jumping nowadays and even though he appeals to casuals based merely on recognition, a lot of "old school" Mario gamers who are the lapsed gamers that got into Wii because of it's simplicity still can be intimidated by the more complex controls of the newer games. That there is considering one of the more casual gamer friendly, yet also hard core gamer appealing games Nintendo has to offer.
As for the Wii install base, true it is larger but consider this, how many of the people who own a Wii are the grandmas and grandpas who only play it occasionally and aside from Brain Age, Wii Play and maybe Wii Fit if their doctors ok it first, don't play much of anything else. How many of those people who own a Wii but could care less what games it has to offer? Right now people talk about the large install base, but I think the true size of the install base who is actually buying games is much smaller than those who are only grabbing the system and maybe 2 or 3 games max.
Right now taking into consideration how many consoles sold is not enough, one must also take into consideration who is buying those consoles and what games are they playing. Yes there are probably a lot of "hard core" gamers but what if hypothetically those numbers are more on par with GC? 3rd Party Devs may need more solid evidence to assure them that Wii can in fact handle the hard core games on a large scale. As of right now all we have to go by are Nintendos own games and the sales of 3rd party games released on the system.
Someone should compare the sales numbers of the casual games and the "hard core" games with GC software sales of similar games. How much more did Galaxies sell than Sunshine? How much more did RE:UC sell than RE:4 GC? How much did Man Hunt 2, Bully, The Godfather, the various Need for Speed games? How much do their sales compare to GC sales? Now compare those same numbers to PS34/360 games. Without that missing data nobody is getting the full picture and both sides are arguing over half truths. None of us know the exact cost of making a game for any of the other consoles. Hell even the costs quoted a year ago are no longer relavent because
A: most devs who made 1 game for PS3 already have the dev kits to make more games for the system,
B: dev kits are cheaper now than they were a year ago so that cost has gone down,
C: Hardware sales are much brighter now than a year ago so there is more potential customers to sell games to than a year ago,
D: Games made last year whose sequels are based on existing software are already cheaper to make and are easier to do so costs are lower there as well.
Bottom line is, whatever it cost a company to make a launch title for PS3 it does not cost that same amount to make a game for PS3 for that same company as the start up costs have already been spent and now they HAVE to recoup those cost one way or another.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 27, 2008, 02:27:02 AM
Actually it just shows how stubborn people like you and Ian can be.
Oh, I'm being grouped now. Awesome. :) Ironically, the response from the start to "people like Ian and I" has been, "you're so impatient. wait for E3, wait for TGS, wait for GDC, wait for DICE, wait for 2008 then you will totally see, etc" and one by one not a whole lot of results seemed to pan out. About a year and a half later, the line has been re-drawn enough times that perhaps it's time that the people that insisted on redrawing it reflect a little on the labels they have been quick to issue all the while. I digress.
Running off lists of games we personally like is easy. I can do the same, but it unfortunately has gaping holes between their releases. Anecdotal lists don't prove anything either way, including stubbornness, when there has always been cash in hand waiting to be spent. The 3rd party situation can be fluffed up any way desired, lists or not, but it won't change that there are issues.
I am aware that wanting more AAA games (from all parties) to fill gaps is controversial and evidently worthy of argument, but consumers are allowed to be demanding. As for adaptability, that's not the consumer's problem either (other than being handed the results).
I think you summed up your position perfectly, you don't like the games out and since they don't please YOU, then support must be lacking. People (Not sure if you were in this group or not) were dooming Wii before it came out, and turns out they had no idea what you were talking about. Nintendo has been doing great, and so have 3rd parties who have actually took time to actually create games for Wii (Capcom, EA, Ubisoft to name a couple). Is it perfect? No but things are getting better, we are finally starting to see people like High Voltage, EA, and THQ start to take more risks with Wii with games like Conduit, Boom Blox (Oh noes, one of those casual games how horrendous), and Deadly Creatures.
Wii Ware is also showing extreme promise for more traditional and "hardcore" experiences but you don't even mention that. I'm sorry that you cannot see that the 3rd party situation is and HAS been improving over the last year and a half, especially over GC, but it is the truth. Now will we be seeing more traditional, ground-up, games for Wii from Third Parties? Well I have no idea, but that does not make the casual games any less valuable because they don't satisfy BigJim. It is a fascinating situation and it is ridiculous to start stating the sky is falling when the Wii and its concept are young.
Please look at the DS as a reference to how long it takes for 3rd Parties to actually start taking risks, it took close to 2 years before it got any substantial support. Now to be clear, I do NOT think the 3rd Party situation is perfect, but I think putting most of the blame on Nintendo is silly. It is kind of funny, perhaps the biggest budget title on Wii, Red Steel, showed right off the bat how 3rd parties can be successful. That was a game that Nintendo worked with Ubisoft on as well. Now who's fault is it really to not take a second jump? Both a 3rd Party AND Nintendo did their job, but 3rd parties still floundered in indecision and crappy ports.
Now I will give you a point, many of us were wrong when it came to what to expect from 3rd Parties. I personally thought we were going to see a bit more risk being taken at this level, though that does not mean I am not pleased at all with the situation because there have been some surprisingly great Wii games (And it isn't just my opinion) from 3rd parties. Is it slower than I would like? Sure. Am I a bit disappointed? Yep, to a degree. Am I completely unsatisfied? Heck no because there have been pleasing games released by 3rd parties!
P.S. You can also argue "gaps" in between games is relative to an individual as well. I could argue 360 and PS3 have had a ton of gaps as well for myself, does that mean they have big problems with 3rd parties? No, it just means the games that were released did not interest me. On the flip side I've always found something to play on Wii, so there have been few if any gaps since I've consistently bought a Wii game or two a MONTH since it was released.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 27, 2008, 02:31:15 AM
One thing we need to take into consideration is that Brawl is smashing records, and may even surpass Halo 3 in units sold. Isn't that showing something to 3rd Parties? Nintendo may have a more casual focus but they creating enough traditional games that show the market is there, but that the publishers need to take some risks and actually MARKET their games instead of letting them die on the shelves.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2008, 02:59:13 AM
And that the Wii at about 1.5 years of life has 14 of those exclusives rated 75 or higher by metacritic, whereas the 360 had 15 exclusives rated above 75 according to metacritic at the same point in its life cycle.
Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.
And with regards to million sellers, I personally believe (ugh... I hate having to rely on VGChartz) that the Wii is tracking ahead of the 360 in terms of million sellers.
So on the subject of "there aren't enough games" I'd argue that the Wii seems to be tracking with or better than the XBox 360 in terms of breadth of game library, quantity and quality of exclusives and sales power.
The only place I can see there remaining for discussion is third-party multiplatform games that don't appear on the Wii.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2008, 03:03:00 AM
On one hand, I feel Nintendo's focus on casual gamers (which includes but isn't limited to the Wii remote itself, as we've discussed) is making publishers hesitant to support the platform with more hardcore titles. Nintendo, additionally, hasn't done as much as they probably should to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, play the odds. The install base is too large to ignore.
Nintendo has to practically service the entire casual gaming segment on their own, third parties have been so inept at it. Cut 'em some slack. Nintendo's pulling double duty with the Wii, didn't ya know, AND they got Mario Zelda and Metroid out in the first year to boot!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Luigi Dude on April 27, 2008, 03:06:36 AM
One thing we need to take into consideration is that Brawl is smashing records, and may even surpass Halo 3 in units sold. Isn't that showing something to 3rd Parties? Nintendo may have a more casual focus but they creating enough traditional games that show the market is there, but that the publishers need to take some risks and actually MARKET their games instead of letting them die on the shelves.
You are correct. Brawl has sold 4.85 million copies worldwide, with 1.61 million in Japan, and 3.24 million of those sold here in North America in the last SIX WEEKS. That's right, Brawl which some people on this board thought would be too hardcore for the Wii's userbase to enjoy, has sold over 3 million copies here in America in not even 2 months. Then when we count the sales this game will get in Europe, Brawl should be somewhere over 7 million worldwide by the end of this summer, which means Brawl will have surpassed Melee lifetime total that it took 6 YEARS to get in a little over 6 MONTHS.
And Brawl isn't the only game doing stuff like this. Mario Galaxy outsold Sunshines lifetime total in only 2 months last holiday andTwilight Princess for the Wii outsold Wind Wakers lifetime total in only a year. Of course when you add the Gamecube and Wii version of Twilight Princess together, it's over 6 million worldwide, which crushes Wind Waker. And all the other ones are the same way, Paper Mario, Mario Strikers, Mario Party, Fire Emblem, even Metroid Prime 3 are outdoing their Gamecube counterparts. Well Metroid Prime 3 isn't close to Prime 1's numbers but it has outsold Prime 2, which still makes it a success story.
Plus even for 3rd parties, they're getting much better sales. Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition is close to surpassing the Gamecube version of Resident Evil 4, which is amazing considering Wii Edition is only a port. This means if Capcom was to make an original Resident Evil for the Wii, it would have incredible sales. Not to mention Umbrella Chronicles has surpassed 1 million and is still selling. The recent Winning Eleven (Pro Evolution Soccer) from Konami has sold better then any of their Gamecube games by far, not to mention is actually selling better then the 360/PS3 version. Plus in Europe, Sega is having amazing sales off of all their Wii games. Every week the UK charts shows several Sega Wii games on the top charts, doing better then any of Sega's 360 and PS3 games.
Oh I could go on, but the bottom line is the Wii is having amazing sales for pretty much EVERY genre and EVERY type of game, whether it's casual or hardcore.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on April 27, 2008, 04:46:49 AM
We should give you the title of "Official Sales Aficionado" ;)
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The recent Winning Eleven (Pro Evolution Soccer) from Konami has sold better then any of their Gamecube games by far, not to mention is actually selling better then the 360/PS3 version.
Seriously? That's incredible - innovation like PES should be rewardsed.
Also, you forgot to mention Red Steel - it was a huge commercial success.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 27, 2008, 05:02:51 AM
Talking about button counts on remotes is silly if you forget that most of the buttons peopel know are paired. When you have two buttons affecting volume, one increasing and one decreasing it's easier to remember them as a pair. Such a pair should be considered one button (just like the dpad is one "button") since you only have to remember one to know both.
More buttons = lower signal to noise. Even if you only use two buttons, finding them isn't always easy. Hell, a game using only "confirm" and "cancel" on the PS2 is already confusing because you don't know which button does which. It's important to provide visual and tactile guidance towards the buttons that will probably do something.
Also consider how people remember the controls. They will often forget details, remembering only "press the button near the thumb" which means they are screwed if they have to remember one button out of a button diamond, they will remember it's in the diamond but not which button in there. On the GC you could remember "big green button", on the Wiimote you can remember "big thumb button" and have more or less a unique grip for each button (I often confuse + with - and 1 with 2 since those buttons are very similar but I never confuse, say, 1 with A).
The game situation to me is still that there are way too few games I want, there's almost none (or truly none?) that I want badly and the rest are more of the "moderate want" type which I'm not willing to pay full price for.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2008, 05:15:38 AM
Hell, a game using only "confirm" and "cancel" on the PS2 is already confusing because you don't know which button does which.
I've been a gamer all my life and I've been tricked by that so many times, and usually on the PS controller too. I think it's got to do with a cultural disconnect between westerners and the Japanese about what an X and O mean. I'm thinking that to Westerners, "X marks the spot" or "Sign your X on the line" and is therefore an affirmative symbol. However, I suspect that the Japanese use X as a "dame desu" and a sign to mark something wrong, and therefore, a negatory response.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ceric on April 27, 2008, 09:35:50 AM
I have to agree with the line in the sand. There hasn't been much that has had me wanting to buy it at launch or I must have. Also Wiiware is Vapor Ware until I can buy it. Like Home and LBP for the PS3 till I can get it in my hand I don't count it.
Even Mario Kart I don't really want because I really enjoyed Double Dash and Mario Kart DS. I wanted a blending of the best of both in the Wii game and from what I've read that is not the case. I'll probably eventually rent it.
As for those sales numbers if they weren't better then the Cube I be surprised. If I had the time I go digging for numbers but I'm not there yet. I rather like to see what percentage of Wii owners own the game compared to the percentage of Cube owner who own the equivalent. Let say, imaginary numbers, Sunshine had a 71% attach rate with the Cube and Galaxy had a 60% attach rate with the Wii. By virtue of selling more raw copies Galaxy is doing fiscally better but it be doing worse then Sunshine in the arena of the users it had to work with.
All very interesting.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mario on April 27, 2008, 10:06:38 AM
I think it comes down to this. If you're open minded, you'll find heaps of games you WILL love on Wii. If you're dumb, you wont, and you'll complain, and life will suck so bad you'll try and you'll bring other things down to raise yourself.
So basically Wii is amazing.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 27, 2008, 10:39:16 AM
I think it comes down to this. If you're open minded, you'll find heaps of games you WILL love on Wii. If you're dumb, you wont, and you'll complain, and life will suck so bad you'll try and you'll bring other things down to raise yourself.
So basically Wii is amazing.
If your looking by the different amount of genres then yes Wii is amazing, the crazy thing is even though I have owned a 360 first my Wii library is bigger than my 360 or PS3 library.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on April 27, 2008, 01:07:30 PM
Such a pair should be considered one button (just like the dpad is one "button") since you only have to remember one to know both.
You still need to know what they do and where there are, just as any other button. You can't separate function and position. There's still a degree of learning involved in both a TV remote and a game controller.
Casual games on the Wii are designed around motion controls, rather than button presses. However, if a casual gamer wanted (and that's the key here) to move on to traditional games, "graduate" from casual to "hardcore" games if you will, they can and buttons aren't going to stop them. Why? Because they can figure out a regular remote (position and function of certain buttons). Because every seasoned gamer had to once. Were we deterred by the SNES? Still, that's if they want to and I'd say, most of them do not. They'll keep playing Wii Sports.
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Also consider how people remember the controls. They will often forget details, remembering only "press the button near the thumb" which means they are screwed if they have to remember one button out of a button diamond, they will remember it's in the diamond but not which button in there. On the GC you could remember "big green button", on the Wiimote you can remember "big thumb button" and have more or less a unique grip for each button...
I've already adressed this: There are ways to make it easier for people if in fact, people need it to be. Convex/concave buttons (like the SNES), different shaped/sized buttons (like Gamecube, but not as ugly) and so on.
There doesn't need to be a diamond arrangement (though I'd like to point out again that the DS has one). Take the Wii remote and add 3 "satellites" buttons. If, at that point, people still can't figure out that they must press the big, round A button when an onscreen indicator tells them to press the big, round A button (i.e. Wii Sports), especially when their thumbs rest directly on the big, round A button, and the other satellite buttons located around the big, round A button are programmed to do nothing, then that's their own fault because they are stupid and they have no business being anywhere near a videogame controller. I would wager that very few people fit into that catagory and I don't think a whole controller should be designed around accomodating/coddling them.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 27, 2008, 02:18:26 PM
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I think you summed up your position perfectly, you don't like the games out and since they don't please YOU, then support must be lacking. People (Not sure if you were in this group or not) were dooming Wii before it came out, and turns out they had no idea what you were talking about. Nintendo has been doing great, and so have 3rd parties who have actually took time to actually create games for Wii (Capcom, EA, Ubisoft to name a couple). Is it perfect? No but things are getting better, we are finally starting to see people like High Voltage, EA, and THQ start to take more risks with Wii with games like Conduit, Boom Blox (Oh noes, one of those casual games how horrendous), and Deadly Creatures.
Well we can swing that pendulum either way -- if you are satisfied, then there's not a drought, etc etc. ad infinitum. As you mentioned, droughts are relative. But anyway, I personally didn't doom the Wii, but I did say "show me the money" and thus ensued a moving benchmark of wait for this or that event, and using titles like Red Steel as proof of perpetual AAA title support. When that didn't pan out, they moved on to the safest and only other future likely-AAA titles they knew of including Mario and SSB that were still a year-plus away. One couldn't have a valid point because [insert future titles and events here] was coming. The answer was always around the corner. Apparently still is. :)
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Now I will give you a point, many of us were wrong when it came to what to expect from 3rd Parties. I personally thought we were going to see a bit more risk being taken at this level, though that does not mean I am not pleased at all with the situation because there have been some surprisingly great Wii games (And it isn't just my opinion) from 3rd parties. Is it slower than I would like? Sure. Am I a bit disappointed? Yep, to a degree. Am I completely unsatisfied? Heck no because there have been pleasing games released by 3rd parties!
Ahhhhhhh. Finally. Sweet smell if validation. Such a rarity here. :P
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Wii Ware is also showing extreme promise for more traditional and "hardcore" experiences but you don't even mention that. I'm sorry that you cannot see that the 3rd party situation is and HAS been improving over the last year and a half, especially over GC, but it is the truth. Now will we be seeing more traditional, ground-up, games for Wii from Third Parties? Well I have no idea, but that does not make the casual games any less valuable because they don't satisfy BigJim. It is a fascinating situation and it is ridiculous to start stating the sky is falling when the Wii and its concept are young.
I didn't say the sky was falling or anything bad about casual games. You've kinda run off with a false assumption there. I'm looking forward to Wii Ware, no doubt about it. I'm not banking on them to fill X-month-long gaps since so little is known about it, but anything is *some* help. I am jazzed about the possibilities, but we can't play possibilities. So yeah, it boils down to just another "wait for" talking point with a nebulous pending outcome. That record's been playing for the last 1.5 years. Heh.
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Please look at the DS as a reference to how long it takes for 3rd Parties to actually start taking risks, it took close to 2 years before it got any substantial support. Now to be clear, I do NOT think the 3rd Party situation is perfect, but I think putting most of the blame on Nintendo is silly. It is kind of funny, perhaps the biggest budget title on Wii, Red Steel, showed right off the bat how 3rd parties can be successful. That was a game that Nintendo worked with Ubisoft on as well. Now who's fault is it really to not take a second jump? Both a 3rd Party AND Nintendo did their job, but 3rd parties still floundered in indecision and crappy ports.
D'oh! Red Steel again! :) All I can say again is that this is a decade-plus-long problem. If you think that the clock should be "reset" because the DS and Wii are so different, we just disagree. I don't know who gets the majority of the blame for the issue, I just said Nintendo gets plenty. Additionally, ultimately the onus is on them to rectify it, one way or another, regardless of how it's divided up.
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Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.
Oh I didn't mean to forget you Kairon. The results seem kinda ho-hum across the board. LOL. A 75 rating is a bit subjective to them. I didn't count the number of 80+ rated titles (my own equally useless subjective benchmark for a flawed rating system) but I'll dig around when I get a chance. But I don't think any particular tastes are well accounted for, unless maybe if you're an FPS fan with an Xbox. (just a generalization since I didn't look yet.) It's possibly problematic across the board.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2008, 03:12:21 PM
Hey! Don't forget about my post! This is specifically talking about console exclusives, but in terms of quality exclusives the Wii is right there with the XBox 360 for this time in its life cycle. Shocking I know.
Oh I didn't mean to forget you Kairon. The results seem kinda ho-hum across the board. LOL. A 75 rating is a bit subjective to them. I didn't count the number of 80+ rated titles (my own equally useless subjective benchmark for a flawed rating system) but I'll dig around when I get a chance. But I don't think any particular tastes are well accounted for, unless maybe if you're an FPS fan with an Xbox. (just a generalization since I didn't look yet.) It's possibly problematic across the board.
Well, unless you can think of a better metric, which is what you're asking for, I think that metacritic is the most stable one we have at hand to measure game quality. In fact, it may even be biased against Nintendo since certain big sellers like Carnival Games and Wii Play and even Excite Truck do NOT reach 75 on that scale, and it's widely suspected that a lot of reviewers have difficulty reviewing Wii games.
If we want to move ahead on this topic, I think we have to draw a line in the sand, and metacritic is agreat place to start. And according to those metacritic figures based on exclusive games, the Wii is doing just fine in quality. In quantity it holds the lead. I wonder if we look at genres, whether the Wii might have a breadth in that too that would be healthy.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 27, 2008, 04:37:21 PM
Well I think this is a good place to say BigJim and I agree to disagree. Before I go I think the only system that you can truly argue that there were droughts on in the context of a TRUE drought (games hardly coming out at all) is the N64. Now there was a drought lol.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Plugabugz on April 27, 2008, 06:12:33 PM
I think we all expect too much to a certain standard, and anything that is PERCEIVED to be below that we collectively turn our nose up at.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 27, 2008, 06:30:30 PM
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Well, unless you can think of a better metric, which is what you're asking for, I think that metacritic is the most stable one we have at hand to measure game quality. In fact, it may even be biased against Nintendo since certain big sellers like Carnival Games and Wii Play and even Excite Truck do NOT reach 75 on that scale, and it's widely suspected that a lot of reviewers have difficulty reviewing Wii games.
If we want to move ahead on this topic, I think we have to draw a line in the sand, and metacritic is agreat place to start. And according to those metacritic figures based on exclusive games, the Wii is doing just fine in quality. In quantity it holds the lead. I wonder if we look at genres, whether the Wii might have a breadth in that too that would be healthy.
I dunno. It seems like there is some consensus showing that there is room for improvement. It's just a matter of varying degrees by which people are individually impacted. I don't think a statistical breakdown is going to resolve much beyond that. For example, if someone's not interested in sports or Zack and Wiki games (and why not, you silly fools?) then their inclusion on a list doesn't alleviate their impact. I think it's reasonably acceptable enough that there's acknowledgment of an issue, and based on tastes, its severity (if any effect) is flexible but real.
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Before I go I think the only system that you can truly argue that there were droughts on in the context of a TRUE drought (games hardly coming out at all) is the N64. Now there was a drought lol.
Oh gawd, if nothing else we agree those were teh hardc0r3 droughts. ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2008, 11:53:23 PM
I dunno. It seems like there is some consensus showing that there is room for improvement. It's just a matter of varying degrees by which people are individually impacted. I don't think a statistical breakdown is going to resolve much beyond that. For example, if someone's not interested in sports or Zack and Wiki games (and why not, you silly fools?) then their inclusion on a list doesn't alleviate their impact. I think it's reasonably acceptable enough that there's acknowledgment of an issue, and based on tastes, its severity (if any effect) is flexible but real.
But then we've essentially abandoned the issue and said, "well it's subjective!" I mean, the same criticism can, and has, been levelled at the XBox 360. Well, whatever your stance on this, the Wii is in much better shape than the PS3. I mean, as bad as the N64 was, I think it was still an amazing time for amazing games. The PS3 doesn't have a Mario 64, let's all remember.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 28, 2008, 12:26:44 AM
ps3 doesn't even have a StarFox Adventures.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 28, 2008, 03:41:05 AM
The PS3 situation is not that great. It has like 3 or 4 exclusives that are somewhat decent and the rest are a mix of multi platform games and sometimes even those are inferior to the 360 one. PS3 needs a big kick in the butt which will probably start with MGS, but beyond that, I'm not sure what else there is (Whatever happened to LittleBigPlanet?).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 28, 2008, 03:51:57 AM
It says Fall 2008 but has been delayed several times. Although I doubt it'll go past this winter.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 28, 2008, 11:58:59 AM
I don't think Sony cares one flying %$&* how the PS3 does on it's own merits. All they wanted to do was get BRD is peoples living rooms and they pulled that off with flying colors.
As for Nintendo, and their 3rd party "problem" I still have mixed feelings. Truth is yes there are a lot of games for Wii, and 360 that interest a lot of people. Truth is Wii has a ton more 3rd party support than GC had, truth is *I* am more than satisfied with VC and WiiWare is looking to keep me interested enough to keep the Wii hooked up and powered on regularly.
Truth is also that there are tons of games and genres NOT represented on Wii and I think they are on their way but until they get here a lot of what is on Wii doesn't interest *me* and Mario's comments are laughable because taste and preference are both subjective and a lot of Wii games just don't seam "amazing" to me. But There are plenty of games that do interest me and a lot of "fun and interesting" things being done for the system, but there are very few of the hard core action games, very few fighting games, next to no RPG's and only a couple of bear em ups.
I like games like Brawl and Metroid, I really do, but I also like they kinds of games that Wii isn't getting. My favorite game series of all time is MK, and looks like Wii is getting shafted when it comes to that. Not to mention the lack of other fighting games. So far there are a couple of DBZ games and a couple of Naruto games. I don't care for Naruto and one DBZ game is the same as another.
I personally will be more satisfied once games like that Conduit and Disaster start showing up. See where I am torn is event hough GC support was lacking I never had trouble finding games to play, Wii is getting heaps more games, but most of them are games I didn't care for on PS and I don't care for now.
Sad thing is there are already too many games on Wii I don't have the money for so I am honestly ok with the gaps in releases cuz it gives me more time to come up with the money to buy the games I want.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: BigJim on April 28, 2008, 12:57:12 PM
Quote
But then we've essentially abandoned the issue and said, "well it's subjective!" I mean, the same criticism can, and has, been levelled at the XBox 360.
I don't really think it's abandoned, there's just no benchmark that's going to resolve anything specific (as sort of demonstrated by anime's post). Acknowledgment is progress over some of the thickheadednesses that hasn't even accepted the existence of the debate before as it relates to Wii.
Also, nice post, anime. I feel very much the same way.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 28, 2008, 01:17:34 PM
Well if we want to say that certain genres aren't seeing the coverage that they should on the Wii, I will completely agree with that. But to say that there aren't a bunch of fantastic games on the Wii being offered by 3rd parties, that's just wrong.
As far as certain genres not seeing representation on the Wii (Fighting, RPG, FPS), I say give it time. Unfortunately the PS3, due to the PS2's success and the graphical power of the PS3, it will likely be the home to many of the best RPGs. FPSs seem to have found a home on the 360, but I think this has the most potential to pick up on the Wii due to the superior control scheme. Fighting games have really been on the decline lately, with only a few key franchises still existing and releasing games consistently. The Wii will probably never see good representation of fighting games because of it's lack of graphical prowess in comparison to the other systems.
There isn't much to say other than that. If Nintendo made a choice to included more horsepower in the Wii I think it would have been more successful with the "hardcore gamer" crowd, but apparently Nintendo felt there was more progress and money to be made with casuals, and clearly they were right. So what do you do if you are one of these people? Simple, you either expand your tastes or you buy a 360/PS3 to complement your Wii. Maybe next generation things will be different because Nintendo will have no choice but to bump the graphics to at least the 360's quality. But for now, you are going to have to grin and bear it.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 28, 2008, 01:24:05 PM
Didn't we all already know the Wii was there to compliment complement other systems? Or vice versa depending on who you are?
I enjoy the Wii a lot, way more than most of the systems in the past. Just look at my library, Mario Kart Wii is my 29 game :o That is easily the fastest growth rate of any of my gaming libraries. AND none of the games suck. haha really great.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 28, 2008, 01:25:57 PM
I enjoy the Wii a lot, way more than most of the systems in the past. Just look at my library, Mario Kart Wii is my 29 game :o That is easily the fastest growth rate of any of my gaming libraries. AND none of the games suck. haha really great.
"As far as certain genres not seeing representation on the Wii (Fighting, RPG, FPS)"
Oh look at that, the 3 genres responsible for making the current industry stale, risky, and fragile.
I thought Wii was here to combat stale gaming, yet stale gaming is apparently what the hardcore betrayed n-gamers want.
Agreed
The only other library I've had grow as quick as the Wii's is the DS, go figure.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Ian Sane on April 28, 2008, 03:30:04 PM
Quote
Oh look at that, the 3 genres responsible for making the current industry stale, risky, and fragile.
I thought Wii was here to combat stale gaming, yet stale gaming is apparently what the hardcore betrayed n-gamers want.
This is such a typical attitude of Nintendo fans that I find very annoying and I don't relate to. I think it stems from the N64 and Gamecube years. Certain genres are not represented practically at all and thus it's decided they're not worth having anyway. It's like a weird devotion.
Every genre is worth having. A good console provides options. The guys who were going nutso over GTA and Madden probably weren't playing R-Type Final. Hell that game was a sequel to series in a genre that's no longer very popular. It was a high quality title of clearly limited appeal. But the PS2 still had it along with mass-market games.
The Wii, if it's to be even compared with the best consoles of all time, should have that kind of variety. No genres left out. No target demographics neglected. Something for everybody doens't mean Wii Fit and Wii Sports. It means that everyone willing to play a videogame can find some stuff that really fits their tastes. Nintendo NEVER gets this anymore. They think "something for everyone" means "everything for everyone". They fill a lineup full of games that anyone COULD like instead of a variety of games that certain groups of people absolutely will like, even if no one else does.
And why does a genre automatically need to be stale? There's no rule. Nintendo is one who has this narrowed minded view that anyone who isn't down with non-games wants the same crap again and again. That's bullsh!t. It's too black and white. It's too extreme. What's to stop someone from innovating with a fighting game? Just because Capcom won't or SNK won't doesn't mean no one CAN.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 28, 2008, 04:07:43 PM
Ian your argument isn't even true for 360 and PS3 which really neglect the casual market, more so than the Wii neglects the "hardcore" market. Every system has a philosophy and games that they "specialize" in. We are in an era where companies can't slap together a game for a relatively small budget like the NES and SNES era (to a certain extent).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 28, 2008, 04:18:00 PM
I already have three games in my need-to-buy-for-the-Wii backlog.
I hope we have a bit of a game drought this summer.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 28, 2008, 04:19:35 PM
Quote
Just because Capcom won't or SNK won't doesn't mean no one CAN.
This is just my opinion but i think the problem is that no one HAS. If it weren't for Soul Caliber on GC being $20 bucks and having Link as a character I wouldnt of had the desire to buy a game since the SNES era. SFII:T was awesome, MK3 was pretty good and Killer Instinct was a must have.
Everything after that seemed like a step backwards to me. Virtua Fighter and Tekken were too slow, it just didnt make sense to me. It's like an action movie: Would you go see one where all the martial arts moves are slow and cool but dull blocks/dogdes/reversals, or would you want to see something fast paced with people performing sh*t you've never seen at a lightning speed?
Then the 2d fighters started coming back into the mainstream with the SNK and Marvel Vs Capcom games but by then they all felt too redundant. Pick up any one of those and input down-to-forward + (button) and you'll perform a move you've seen a million times before with a new coat of paint and some new over the top character doing it. The Combo systems became ridiculous as well as those ultimate/team moves in the Marvel Vs Capcom game. You'd think Cyclops shooting a beam covering most of the screen would be a KO to your opponent but nope; he blocks what would of been a 72hit combo...wtf?
Then you had things like Soul Calibur which inroduced weapon-based combat but by then i was just burnt out on all of it. It all just got old so fast. I tried to get excited for the new MK games that wanted to introduce on the fly martial art technique changes but i couldnt.
I'd hate to say it but Smash Bros games are the only "fighters" i care for now (not counting a few retro games of SF and KI) and thats because they didn't follow a formula. I remember first reading about it in an old NP mag and thinking "oh god, another "X vs X" type game until more information came out on it. The second i read "4 player simultaneaus matches" my eyes lit up thinking "ok.... this is getting interesting." Then the end product comes out and the mechanics were so a breath of fresh air.
Now i'm not saying Nintendo is the only company who CAN re-invent the fighters, nor am i saying they're the only ones who HAVE. I'm just saying that to me, who used to be a fan of fighters back in the day when you'd go to the arcades to see whats new and challenge that kid who's still on a single quarter, Nintendo with Smash Bros. has been the only series to do something to catch my attention. To me every thing else really does feel stale.
Before i end this, i'd like to give an honorable mention to the DBZ game that came out at/around wii's launch. I'd never been into DBZ so i've never played the fighting games in that series, but it was pretty unique and had me hooked the few hours i played it at a friends house. Too bad i dont care for the (dbz) series enough to want to purchase the game.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 28, 2008, 04:49:20 PM
"This is such a typical attitude of Nintendo fans that I find very annoying and I don't relate to."
You forgot to acknowledge it's also the state of the industry.
"No genres left out. No target demographics neglected." "And why does a genre automatically need to be stale? There's no rule." "What's to stop someone from innovating with a fighting game?"
I don't remember Nintendo saying "no, your popular genre is not allowed on our system"; I also don't see 3rd parties stepping up to fill those genre gaps (you know, historically, that's WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO, CUZ THAT'S HOW THEY MADE NAMES FOR THEMSELVES IN THE FIRST PLACE); Despite what a console maker "neglects", it's the paying customers who do the real neglecting; I remember reading something about genre saturation, when the market is saturated, only the blockbuster "genre kings" consistently get the big sales, while the 2nd-rank copycats fall into low-sales quicksand and obscurity, hurting the bottom lines of the publishers; Aside from genre kings, the market pretty much has its fill, and collective sales/attention decline sharply after; To the play-it-safe 3rd parties out there, a disinterested market is enough to stop them from "innovating" (or at least halt the yearly iterations); To the play-it-safe 3rd parties out there, "emerging markets/genres" probably make better business opportunities, adding more fuel to the "leave those old franchises behind" approach to profitability.
Luckily for Nintendo, they not just own, but REVIVED several genre kings, AND they're the master of the emerging market.
Gaming is doomed.
Eat it.
"I'd hate to say it but Smash Bros games are the only "fighters" i care for now."
hur
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 28, 2008, 04:52:38 PM
Now i'm not saying Nintendo is the only company who CAN re-invent the fighters, nor am i saying they're the only ones who HAVE. I'm just saying that to me, who used to be a fan of fighters back in the day when you'd go to the arcades to see whats new and challenge that kid who's still on a single quarter, Nintendo with Smash Bros. has been the only series to do something to catch my attention. To me every thing else really does feel stale.
Ironic isn't it?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 28, 2008, 06:35:34 PM
Now i'm not saying Nintendo is the only company who CAN re-invent the fighters, nor am i saying they're the only ones who HAVE. I'm just saying that to me, who used to be a fan of fighters back in the day when you'd go to the arcades to see whats new and challenge that kid who's still on a single quarter, Nintendo with Smash Bros. has been the only series to do something to catch my attention. To me every thing else really does feel stale.
Ironic isn't it?
Very.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 28, 2008, 06:37:36 PM
Stale Oreos are soft. I like.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 28, 2008, 06:40:41 PM
Wow, Pro has a serious response and it is GOOD.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 28, 2008, 07:27:29 PM
oreos are seirous business
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 29, 2008, 07:31:18 AM
Of course the hardcore wants stale genres, how do you think those genres got stale in first place? There was a lot of demand for those genres and people didn't care how similar a game was to the previous one so publishers delivered what the market bought.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 29, 2008, 12:07:28 PM
KDR makes a valid, and highly cyincal point.
We are forced to remember that although gaming is an artform, it is also a business...and games that sell get sequels. Innovative genres get ripped off and copied, and anything deemed risky isn't worth the chance in most developers and publishers eyes.
It is just like movies, we get mostly crappy romantic comedies, and really cheesy action films, because that is what sells in the theaters. And truthfully, would you rather see King Kong or Star Wars in a theater or Magnolia? King Kong/Star Wars will have a bigger effect on the big screen, while the superior film Magnolia will be just as great at home.
And this is basically the analogy of the Wii vs. Xbox 360 and PS3. I do not believe there are very many games that could not be made for the Wii that are being made for the Xbox 360 or PS3. Yes, sacrifices would be made, but the core experience of the game would be the same...and perhaps gameplay even better.
Yet, as a developer and a consumer, look at what can be accomplished with the higher graphical capabilities of 360 and PS3. They are stunning, and if you had to choice of which version you would play, it would always be the nicer looking and sounding of the two. So the Wii misses out on some of the big games like Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, and such...however we are getting more original game designs and indie games, because of cost factors, and innovations of the Wii itself. Basically, the Magnolia's of the game world will be just as enjoyable on the Wii if not more than on the big screen.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on April 29, 2008, 03:35:19 PM
And let's not forget that art and fun are not related. A game that breaks with all conventions, inovates everywhere, etc still isn't necessarily fun while a generic sequel can be great fun.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 29, 2008, 03:47:28 PM
"There was a lot of demand for those genres and people didn't care how similar a game was" They do care (in terms of what's actually purchased). They flock to the genre kings, and the rest of the games get you $4 cash back at GameStop.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: ShyGuy on April 29, 2008, 04:00:59 PM
A site called Lost Garden had an excellent four part article about game genres a few years back that I think nailed the problem with the hard core audience today.
"There was a lot of demand for those genres and people didn't care how similar a game was" They do care (in terms of what's actually purchased). They flock to the genre kings, and the rest of the games get you $4 cash back at GameStop.
Publishers don't seem to care much about that gamble though as evident by those releasing on Christmas. The genre kings aren't always something new either, maybe just something old done well.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2008, 02:05:44 AM
That's a strong, quick reason to not innovate.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 30, 2008, 02:57:09 AM
But WHY does something HAVE to be new to be good?! I don't get it, you guys who bash the "hard core" and the throw innovation out there make me sick. How the hell is Mario Kart Wii any more innovative than Mario Kart DS or Mario Kart DD? Forget it I don't want to reopen that can of worms again. I just hate that word.
It's like if something has been done once some people think it can't be done again. Yet the same people who bash all these genre safe sequels who try and keep doing what they always do, forget that even Nintendo's own sequels do the same thing.
To someone who has lost interest in fighting games fine don't play them, but to someone who still cares very much about them and feels starved for good options it can be a problem. Now releasing old Neo Geo and SNES fighting games for VC is nice and all, but that is not satisfying enough. So Pro, Easycure and some others don't like fighting games, fine ok but STOP insulting those who do by talking trash on the genre. Hypocrits the lot of you. When I say how I don't like F-Zero or Pokemon or Wind Waker, I get chastized and provoked to no end with stupid lame fanboy comments like those in some of the more recent posts.
But it's ok for you guys to trash talk a genre others may like just because it's not what interests you? I hate it when people do that. I don't like every FPS that comes out, but I do like the genre and I would like some more variety to chose from instead of having to spend $400 on a second console, which I will address that not so simple and not as feasible issue in a bit.
Never in this thread did I agree or being to think Wii doesn't have enough good games, notice also that the games that don't interest me I did not make fun of, call names, or belittle one bit. But the games I would like to see on Wii that aren't very likely to be on Wii, everyone trash talks on, insults, makes generalizations about the audience, like that insulting post about the "hard core crowd"
Ian nailed it head on with most of his last post. I threw those three genres out there because like it or not there are some good games within each and there are people who like those games and they should be better represented on Wii considering the massive sales and all.
Also note nowhere in any of my posts did I say anything negative about the casual games either yet most responses since have been putting down the hard core crowd/games, and pointing out the lack of casual games on the other systems, but what relevance does that have? We already KNOW the Wii is the system for casual games, nobody was saying PS3 or 360 was better by any means because of their selections, or at least I wasn't, but that some, SOME, *some* genres get better attention on those consoles than Wii and as market leader that is crap.
Now I do maintain that I *hope* and still believe that RPG's and FPSes will get better on Wii and I can live with the lack of good fighting games because let's face it it is a dieing genere and VC is going to have to do. But I will not run out and buy a 360 to play a handful of games that should have been on Wii and that I could get on my PC anyways.
The whole, "if you don't like it buy the second console" argument doesn't really work this time like it usually has in the past, because before ALL of the main consoles started out below $300 and only went down as time went on, this time around ONLY the Wii started below that fair and reasonable price point and therefore was the only budget friendly console to chose from. Last gen if I wasn't satisfied with GC variety it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other two consoles and grab the games I wanted, which I did BTW. But this gen just to buy all three consoles not 1 single game is over a grand, money not everyone has. Then throw in how expensive the controllers, games, and other accessories are and it gets ridiculous.
By this time last gen all three consoles were all under $250 and GC was already around $150 so for the price of just a Ps3 and a couple of games, you could get all three consoles and at least 1 game each. For those who got a Wii and can't afford to buy very many games for it, sure as hell don't have the money to pick up a 360, let alone a PS3. So please don't list that as an option when it isn't as realistic as it has historically been. Hell back in the 16 Bit days when you could survive owning one or the other, it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other console after a while and games dropped in price a lot more rapidly than they do now, for the most part.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 30, 2008, 03:35:19 AM
Good points and I completely agree with you animecyberrat. Heck, people. You know what else isn't new? Phoenix Wright. Yeah, you heard me. Text adventures are sooooo 1980's.
I absolutely adore newness, but I'm as much a genre addict as the next gamer. I long for JRPGs. I long for god-sim games, and adventure games, and corridor and 3D arcade flight sims and RTS'... basically, all these games that I grew up with in the late 80's and early 90's. Heck, River City Ransom owned my childhood. But the Wii has nothing like it. Maybe the closest thing to RCR nowadays is GTA...
Yes, I'm buying Wii Fit and I'm buying World of Goo and stuff. But it's the hardcore gamer in me that celebrates when I hear that Sam & Max is coming to the Wii, or Strong Bad. Nothing's more hardcore than a point-and-click adventure game. And rail-gun shooters. Bring 'em on! Playing Ghost Squad with my brother was one of the happiest moments in recent memory for me! Thank god there are at least these two hardcore genres that the Wii is undeniably strong in!
And gosh darn it, I LIKED FAR CRY! So there! Friggin' need more decent, playable, FPS games on the Wii...
.
..
...
But you're right animecyberrat. It's just... this generation sucks for multiconsole gamers because Sony and MS just friggin' jacked the price out of reach for the common man. And while the Wii is sensibly priced, its immense success means it's not going to get price dropped for a long while. So while in the past multiconsole gamers (of which I've never been one, mind you) could shell out a mere $600 and be done with it, the business maneuverings of today make that economically infeasible.
Nevertheless, there's no argueing with what those business decisions have reaped for the companies and gamers. Nintendo is number 1 again and may actually match or surpass the PS2 in sales. The XBox 360 has a near impregnable fanbase. And the graphical and interface leaps this generation are impressive... they're just exponentially more expensive. ARGH.
It's such a WEIRD generation. It's exciting, I'm loving it, I'm happier with my Wii-only collection than I've been for a long time... but it's just so confusing.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 30, 2008, 08:22:44 AM
The whole, "if you don't like it buy the second console" argument doesn't really work this time like it usually has in the past, because before ALL of the main consoles started out below $300 and only went down as time went on, this time around ONLY the Wii started below that fair and reasonable price point and therefore was the only budget friendly console to chose from. Last gen if I wasn't satisfied with GC variety it wasn't that expensive to pick up the other two consoles and grab the games I wanted, which I did BTW. But this gen just to buy all three consoles not 1 single game is over a grand, money not everyone has. Then throw in how expensive the controllers, games, and other accessories are and it gets ridiculous.
Unfortunately that argument has to work, because it is reality. Yeah it sucks that all of these other systems are very expensive, but if you want to experience the full gamut of games you NEED to buy a second console. But like I said before there are plenty of great games on the Wii in particular genres, but that is not going to satisfy everybody. If you are willing to try and like new things a Wii will get you through, but if you want certain experiences and are unwilling to change your tastes, forget it, the Wii is not going to cut it.
The thing that annoys me is how everyone just expects that the Wii SHOULD get everything. Sure it is a market leader, but with 3 consoles all with a strong fanbase, there are certain games that are guaranteed to sell better on each system. Shooters are totally locked up by Microsoft. Their fans live and breath them. I bet the same will become true on the PS3 with RPGs, particularly JRPGs, so don't expect them to see a release on the Wii because of said reasons. The Wii has it's niche just like everyone else, I think the bigger problem is the total lack of quality in many games that could and should be good but aren't. The developers know the games will sell whether or not they put in the extra effort, so why bother? Thankfully some companies have really picked up the ball and showed that they are committed to quality.
It is also worth noting that the Wii is still in it's infancy and it took even longer than this to really get the DS off the ground. About this time in the DS lifecycle, the PSP was launching and everyone was predicting a slaughter. But Nintendo pulled out a couple critical titles and the floodgates opened. I'd say the floodgates have already opened, but people are just changing gears and in another year people will be singing another tune. But in all honesty, I couldn't care less. I love the Wii. I have had great experiences and more and more games keep coming out that I want. The only lull I experienced was right after it came out, and that was short-lived.
To bring it full circle, invest in a second console if and when you have the ability to do so. You will be much happier with the state of things if you do. The console market is not the same as it was (due largely to Nintendo turning it on it's head with the Wii), so you can't expect to buy just one console and get full (and good) representation of every genre out there.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mario on April 30, 2008, 09:44:42 AM
Don't do it. He's a plant. Get Mario Kart.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 30, 2008, 11:15:45 AM
To be fair, I will concede that Nintendo's AAA titles for the Wii are pretty much the same sort of AAA titles as they put out for the Gamecube (Zelda, Mario, Metroid). The Wii should have completely different stuff. Innovating doesn't always have to be about creating completely new stuff. I think it's also innovating when you take something really old and bring it back to the forefront.
All that said, where the heck is punch-out and Icarus and all those other non-zelda-metroid-mario games that Nintendo used to make in the good old days? I don't really understand why Nintendo is so obsessed with the two Ms and their Z franchise. They've done lots of other cool stuff in the past, but they abandoned those things in the NES or SNES era. I say it is time they bring all that back, because I am kinda in agreement with many of you that Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Metroid Prime, et cetera is all basically the same as what we seen on the Gamecube only a few years ago. Rehashing a franchise over and over again isn't innovative... but bringing back a long dead one probably is.
Edited to add: Mario Paint FTW! Nintendo could even bundle it with a printer add-on so you could print the stuff you make on your Wii.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 30, 2008, 11:43:01 AM
*does rain dance to promote Industry Crash*
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 30, 2008, 12:31:39 PM
To be fair, I will concede that Nintendo's AAA titles for the Wii are pretty much the same sort of AAA titles as they put out for the Gamecube (Zelda, Mario, Metroid). The Wii should have completely different stuff. Innovating doesn't always have to be about creating completely new stuff. I think it's also innovating when you take something really old and bring it back to the forefront.
All that said, where the heck is punch-out and Icarus and all those other non-zelda-metroid-mario games that Nintendo used to make in the good old days? I don't really understand why Nintendo is so obsessed with the two Ms and their Z franchise. They've done lots of other cool stuff in the past, but they abandoned those things in the NES or SNES era. I say it is time they bring all that back, because I am kinda in agreement with many of you that Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Metroid Prime, et cetera is all basically the same as what we seen on the Gamecube only a few years ago. Rehashing a franchise over and over again isn't innovative... but bringing back a long dead one probably is.
Edited to add: Mario Paint FTW! Nintendo could even bundle it with a printer add-on so you could print the stuff you make on your Wii.
Well in addition to anything they announce at E3 they've got Disaster: Day of Crisis (new IP) and Kirby (a franchise, but one that didn't get a mainline game on the Cube) coming later this year.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: DAaaMan64 on April 30, 2008, 12:47:50 PM
I really hope it's like the dreamland series or more adventure-ish. I wonder how a 3rd person camera would work with Kirby?
I loved Kirby 64.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2008, 03:15:00 PM
Well before I begin I want to state I was not referring to Rat's posts at all during my responses, they mainly to Ian. In regards to some of the rat's points, I have to really disagree.
FPS shooters are mostly picked on because there has been an absolute flood of them with each game basically being the same thing (Like WWII based). It is extremely unfair to compare Nintendo to many of these flooded genres, Nintendo may have its games where it knocks them out (Mario Party 8) but overall their "bigger" games usually attempt to innovate in some ways. One example is Super Mario Galaxy, that game took the platformer genre to new places, while maintaining the platformer feel. Few companies attempt to do something so drastic.
Interesting that the rat brings up Mario Kart for his argument, I don't believe anyone that is serious would say the MK series is innovative at all. It is pretty much the same thing it has always been. Is it still fun? Of course, but unlike games like Mario Party it isn't released every year, and is still "special" when it does come out.
Now in regards to the Wii and casual games, I take it the rat was responding to my point, even if he did take it completely out of context. What I was stating is that every console since the PSone era has had a predominant type of game for it. The main reason why systems like SNES or NES didn't have such a stigma is because development costs were much lower then. Now companies need to be careful and consoles are usually shifted to a particular type of game or gamer. The Wii is no different. When the PS2 was on top, good casual games were tough to come by, but more "traditional" games were its bread n butter so developers stuck with it. This generation the Wii's bread N butter is casual games so I do not expect a ton of traditional games to show up to balance the casual games, it is just not historically shown. So, I hate to say it, you are just going to have to live with it, or buy another console.
So to sum things up. Nintendo at least attempts to innovate in their big games and has done far more for the industry in terms of setting the standard then Sony or MS combined, so it is NOT on the same level as either of those companies or even 3rd parties. They may have their rehash problem but at least the balance it out with some of the freshest gameplay experiences around. Even Wii Sports was quite fresh. If you don't like predominant casual games, mixed with some good traditional games (Mark my words there will be some traditional games) then buy one of the competitors like I have. I really doubt history is going to change because Nintendo is on top now. Either live with it or get something else.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on April 30, 2008, 03:30:59 PM
But hardcore gaming has gotten too expensive GP. That's why everyone's mad at Nintendo: it's Nintendo's fault that Sony and MS are slowly seeking new ways to alienate hardcore players from their hobby, whether by pricing them out of it, or by concentrating on fewer and fewer genres to the exclusion of other hardcore genres that deserve just as much attention.
BTW, I'd like to point out that the Wii is actually extremely hardcore. Adventure gaming is a hardcore genre that outdates anything first-person-bleh, and rail-shooters leapt out of the beloved-but-dying arcade field to survive on the Wii, not the PS3. (Time Crisis wouldn't have sucked if it was on the Wii! ARGH!)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2008, 03:34:00 PM
But hardcore gaming has gotten too expensive GP. That's why everyone's mad at Nintendo: it's Nintendo's fault that Sony and MS are slowly seeking new ways to alienate hardcore players from their hobby, whether by pricing them out of it, or by concentrating on fewer and fewer genres to the exclusion of other hardcore genres that deserve just as much attention.
BTW, I'd like to point out that the Wii is actually extremely hardcore. Adventure gaming is a hardcore genre that outdates anything first-person-bleh, and rail-shooters leapt out of the beloved-but-dying arcade field to survive on the Wii, not the PS3. (Time Crisis wouldn't have sucked if it was on the Wii! ARGH!)
Well I try to avoid "hardcore" because I think it is extremely subjective, I like "traditional" much better. If anything Wii has been anti-traditional and that in itself is innovative (though it does tick people off who like traditional experiences).
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Armak88 on April 30, 2008, 03:35:06 PM
I don't think that wii games aren't for people who are unwilling to change their tastes or don't like trying new things. I don't like sports games or (typical) racing games, until I experienced wii controls I wasn't to fond of FPS's either. I have always bought nintendo consoles because I like action/adventure games and platformers. Where else am I going to get these games? They are by no means new genre's or casually oriented. I just know that nintendo will deliver on these genres, as long as they have mario, metroid and zelda I'll be happy.
On the other hand I also enjoy RPG's. I have played through almost every final fantasy and enjoyed my fill of the genre on the SNES. Since then, however, I haven't been satisfied in this genre. However, I don't really like the direction that FF is going recently, and I'm not going to shell out the money for a new system for one game. I don't feel particularly deprived, I just wish I could play a GOOD new RPG every once in a while.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on April 30, 2008, 03:43:00 PM
I don't think that wii games aren't for people who are unwilling to change their tastes or don't like trying new things. I don't like sports games or (typical) racing games, until I experienced wii controls I wasn't to fond of FPS's either. I have always bought nintendo consoles because I like action/adventure games and platformers. Where else am I going to get these games? They are by no means new genre's or casually oriented. I just know that nintendo will deliver on these genres, as long as they have mario, metroid and zelda I'll be happy.
If you are referring to what I posted, the only point I was trying to convey about taste-changing was that each system has established a niche where certain genres are more predominant than on the other systems. If you don't like the genres the Wii specializes in or want more genres, you are kind of SOL. The only way you will be happy is by purchasing a second system to complement the Wii. That argument applies to the other systems as well. If you are a PS3 owner and aren't happy, you are going to have to complement that with another system.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on April 30, 2008, 03:51:07 PM
Hey Hey Hey lets be fair here... i never insulted anyone person here or any type of gamer that enjoys fighting games with my post so i dont deserve to have my name in that one post accusing me of bashing on any gamers.
Besides if you look back a few pages ago, you'll see that my stance on gaming in general is that, like movies, "EVERYTHING" has been done so its nothing new when it comes to the majority of mainstream gaming. In fact i said something along the lines of:
"even if Virtual Reality was the new standard in gaming, you'd still be going from point A to point B/racing to the finish/fighting bosses etc etc etc"
Sure things like Nintendogs come along (which i DONT own mind you) and seem new but sims have been around for years. To me that series is nothing more but a fancy Tomagachi thing. Electroplankton? seems fun but i never bought it, sorry. Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either. I could go on, really.
What i was trying to say in my post is that some genres that don't have much to them to begin with, (in this case fighters) because there isnt much that CAN be done, are as frustrating as the clones in brawl. It's one thing to buy a sequel to a game you like and have it be similar but why would I want to buy a whole "new" IP that plays just like the other IP and its sequel i payed good money for. It really comes down to the individual on whats stale or not. To me fighters have become stale, that is until someone introduces a new mechanic that makes it feel new again. Mario and Zelda are stale franchises too but galaxy's physics made what would of been "just another platformer" enjoyable so it was worth it for the experience. As for Twilight Princess, i'll be honest i just can't get enough of some hot Link action. There havent been any clever puzzles in awhile that brought a smile to my face when solved, but its something i know i still like so if anyone wants to call it stale, i'll agree with them.
I think some of you guys are taking this stuff a little too personally. It's just video games dammit.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 30, 2008, 05:02:47 PM
You're right easycure, your comments weren't what upset me, mostly Pro, but you long anti fighting game rant made it sound like you were just anti fighting game period and I tossed your name in because I didn't read your whole rant.
I still love the Wii and all and as far as 360 the few games that it has I want, most people here trash talk on so I don't think listing them will matter. To be fair, I just chose fighting games because, clones or not, I love Samurai Showdown, Art of Fighting, SFII, MK, Capcom vs, Children of the Atom, Tekken, Soul Caliber, VF, World Heroes, Cosmic Carnage, Primal Rage, and countless others. I don't see how making a sequel that adheres to the established formula is such a bad thing. I hate it when fighting games *try* to mix things up, because I prefer straight up one on one bare bones butt kicking. So for me, the few fighting games there are for any console not just Wii, is never enough.
But sadly the 360 seams to be getting all of the good ones and Wii only gets last gens MK port, generic DBZ rehash (the only fighting game serious I don't care to rebuy each iteration because the story never changes and it's always the same scenarios.) I bought DBZ and will buy MK eventually because there isn't much else. But if I had the money I would snatch up an Elite in a heart beat.
But to also be fair to Wii, at leas VC does a good job filling in the blanks so I am not complaining about the games or lack of cuz I don't feel that, I just don't like how it feels like being a fighting game fans makes me anti fun or something.
And GP, have you not heard of Guitar Hero? Or Dance Dance Revolution? None of those started out on Wii or GC.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Maverick on April 30, 2008, 07:58:26 PM
Best fighting game ever made. Fuckin' dinosaurs, man.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2008, 09:13:40 PM
"And GP, have you not heard of Guitar Hero? Or Dance Dance Revolution?"
Wow you found two examples, funny I don't believe I said anything about PS2 NOT having ANY casual games. Not to mention that Guitar Hero started out as fairly "hardcore" niche game. Dance Dance Revolution pretty much got its start in the arcade. But I guess if that is the best response you can counteract my argument on how the industry works I'm doing pretty good. Also I find it odd you decide to get testy with me since I am one of the few multi-console owners here that has defended all the systems.
Let's look at the franchises there were started (or embraced) on PS2 that are NOT casual and we'll see how your casual picks stack up.
-God of War -GTA -Final Fantasy -Metal Gear Solid -Tekken -Castlevania -Kingdom Hearts
I know there are tons more, but putting it in perspective I would not be surprised if the ratio of good "traditional" games outweighed "good" casual games by 90%+. Take out your music related games and it is a much more bleak picture when it comes to good casual games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on April 30, 2008, 10:30:07 PM
Why did you turn this into an argument? I wasn't saying PS2 is all about casual games at all, and Ps3 wasn't even a part of my example at all. But whatever.
I am not saying Wii ISNT the system for casual games and I sure as hell wasn't saying that the other system are competing with those, so I don't know what your post was even about.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 30, 2008, 11:58:34 PM
Why did you turn this into an argument? I wasn't saying PS2 is all about casual games at all, and Ps3 wasn't even a part of my example at all. But whatever.
I am not saying Wii ISNT the system for casual games and I sure as hell wasn't saying that the other system are competing with those, so I don't know what your post was even about.
Perhaps you should read your own post
"genres get better attention on those consoles than Wii and as market leader that is crap. "
You basically stated that a market leader should have this vast array of genres, yet it has never been the case in previous generations (Down to the PSone era). It may be crap to you, but it has ZERO to do with a system being a market leader since every market leader had its own genre or emphasis when it came to what kinds of games were being made for it.
PSone=Tradtional titles with little emphasis on quality "for everyone" titles PS2=Traditional titles with little emphasis on "for everyone" titles Wii="for everyone" titles with little emphasis on traditional games
Also why did I "turn" this into an argument, I believe you did that when you went after some of my comments, and attacking others here. I don't appreciate people doing that to my writing, especially when all I was doing was trying to show why I think it isn't surprising that Wii, even as market leader, doesn't have "X" genre in large quantities.
On a side note, if you are going to "call" people out, please have the courtesy to state who said what. That is how things get misinterpreted,
P.S. The PS3 was a typo
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on May 01, 2008, 03:44:12 AM
Quote
Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either.
That's just crazy. Anyone who dismisses Pikmin like that without even playing it is in my bad books ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: IceCold on May 01, 2008, 03:46:34 AM
Quote
notice also that the games that don't interest me I did not make fun of, call names, or belittle one bit.
Haha, Monkey Ball..
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 01, 2008, 03:51:24 AM
I think Ninjabread Man is poo.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 01, 2008, 07:43:48 AM
I never played it, but every time I hear about it the reviews are always very negatives, so it must be a crappy game. But at least the name is kinda witty... You gotta admit.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on May 01, 2008, 08:10:55 AM
"even if Virtual Reality was the new standard in gaming, you'd still be going from point A to point B/racing to the finish/fighting bosses etc etc etc"
Sure things like Nintendogs come along (which i DONT own mind you) and seem new but sims have been around for years. To me that series is nothing more but a fancy Tomagachi thing. Electroplankton? seems fun but i never bought it, sorry. Pikmin is a RTS so it didnt get my money either. I could go on, really.
"All games are only about simple tasks except for genres A,B,C and D that I don't count!"
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on May 01, 2008, 08:41:21 AM
On The Rat:
It's cool if you feel the need to defend the genre because thats what you're into, i was just defending myself and didnt want to get drawn into a debate or be labeled as a game basher. By the way Primal Fury was sweet, i almost forgot about that game. I also just remembere another fighting game that wasnt 16-bit that i actually did love; its a little gem called Flying Dragon for the N64. Anyone ever play it? It had two modes: one was a serious fighter with a weak-point system in place where for a split second a flashing dot would appear on your or your opponents weak point and if struck you could do some serious damage, if not KO them completely. It was probably the most technical fighter I ever enjoyed but i liked the second game mode better. It was almost all the same characters but in a kid form and it had an rpg element to it where you could buy items from a store to increas some stats on your fighter, or win a battle in certain conditions to win rare items. I'm pretty sure you could even level up too, so even if you won a certain item you might need to level up just to use it. It was sweet.
On IceCold:
I never outright dismissed Pikmin. I always wanted to check it out because everyone raved about it. When people rave about a Miyamoto game and claim it as the best new IP ever, it deserves to be played. Unfortunately in high school i didnt make much money so i didnt want to spend the $50 on something i wasnt sure about. I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check the series out I cant because i cant find the damn game.
On KDR 11k:
You either specifically took my words out of context or just missed the point of my post entirely, i cant tell.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 01, 2008, 09:53:18 AM
No GP, the point I was making is that as market leader the Wii should have a wider variety. How can you say PS2 didn't do that? Have you not heard of Eye Toy? Or those games that use the buzzers? Or what about American Idol? PS2 had plenty of these casual non gamer games. Not to mention the most casual market of all, Sports games, dominated the PS2.
I was saying that Wii should have more of the traditional games as well as more casual games, YOU SAID that PS2 didn't even have casual games or something to that affect and that you made it sound like Wii only needed casual type games or something. That was how I was reading your comments.
You rattled off a bunch of big name PS2 titles and somehow thought I wa arguing against the system having hard core games, I know already PS2 had more traditional games, I never contested that!
I wasn't making an argument either I was defending the genres people bash because it honestly boggles my mind people can trash talk a game for not straying from the established formula and say it sucks because it doesn't innovate then turn around and bitch about heir favorite franchise getting some unwanted overhaul.
Icecold, that was over a year ago and I dropped it didn't I? Yes I honestly feel that way about Monkey Ball, the game just screams PBS kids to me, I can't do that. It's no different than Bratz or any of the Nick Toons as far as I am concerned. I should not have brought down those who enjoy the series but when I played it I felt the same as if I sat down to watch Barney and friends without my 3 year old nephew around. But Hey if you enjoy it fine. That was *MY* impression of the game.
Easycure, you're right I was mostly meaning Pro but I never can tell when he is serious or not but his repeated comments on innovations and touched a nerve.
My main gripe is the Wii doesn't have any fighting games, but with VC giving me all the classics I can live without the remakes and sequels for now. RPG's on the other hand, just because PS is more famous for them is no excuse to write the Wii off as not capable or not having the fanbase for it.
The thing is as market leader, Wii should have a wider variety than it does, PS2 did have that something for everyone even if the focus was on more action oriented games. 360 on the other hand, if you're not into First Person Shooters or Halo Clones than forget it you will be less happy than a Wii gamer into Fighting games and RPG's ,except 360 is getting more RPG's than Wii and some comments on here were saying how RPG's tend to flock to PS3 or something when I still see more on the 360 than either of the other two so I don't get that logic either.
I seam to recall an argument we had a year or two ago over SNES being superior to Genesis due to it's RPG and Fighting game library, how things have changed huh. Consequently Eternal Champions still is to this day the only fighting game I have experienced I hate. I may or may not have defended it before I don't remember but if I did it was more or less to defend the Genesis varied library over anything else.
So now re-read my previous post and re-read yours and tell me who started what please. I was only trying to defend both sides this entire thread. Because that is how I feel, both hopeful and yet dissatisfied at the same time.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mesu on May 01, 2008, 09:08:25 PM
You basically stated that a market leader should have this vast array of genres, yet it has never been the case in previous generations (Down to the PSone era). It may be crap to you, but it has ZERO to do with a system being a market leader since every market leader had its own genre or emphasis when it came to what kinds of games were being made for it.
This is not correct. The thing to remember is Playstation didn't miss out and any important 3rd party games that N64 and Saturn got (and in the rare cases that they did the playstation was not lacking in other games from that genre). The playstation did miss out on turok and no mercy but it wasn't lacking in those genres.
The PS2 followed the playstation in not missing out on genres that were made from 3rd parties on the XBOX or GC. An example of this is with games like Ikaruga on gamecube, the ps2 got more side scrolling shooters than gamecube. The most important casual games playstation 2 missed out were first party game(mario party, animal crossing). If Playstation and PS 2 lacked casual games it's because 3rd parties weren't making many of them.
There's no historical evidence the Wii won't get more Japanese RPGs than the PS3 in the future if it keeps outselling at the rate it is.
I think the reason it seems like it's taking forever for the wii to get significant 3rd party games is people can read the internet everyday and check if wii has support yet. In the past people could not do that. It makes a week without any new announcements to seem like a lot longer than it did the past.
The NES had a slow start too for important 3rd party games. For instance the NES was released in 1985 but a lot of the most remembered 3rd party games didn't get released until 1987:
Castlevania 1987
Mega Man 1987
Contra 1988
Double Dragon 1988
Bubble Bobble 1988
R.C. Pro Am 1988
Blaster Master 1988
Metal Gear 1988
Adventure Island 1988
Ninja Gaiden 1989
Dragon Warrior 1989
Tecmo Bowl 1989
Bomberman 1989
River City Ransom 1989
Final Fantasy 1990
Little Nemo: The Dream Master 1990
Battletoads 1991
It's true that they Ghouls and Ghosts, and Gradius were out in 1986 but the wii also had 3rd party games of comparable importance with its first 12 months.
The NES is best console to compare wii to since it started without 3rd party support. Playstation 1 isn't the best comparision because it was easier to switch to early because of the high cost of N64 carts.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 01, 2008, 09:13:52 PM
To Rat: That is a fair response I apologize for misinterpreting what you said.
Mesu: Fair points but my basic point had more to do with ratio differences between genres on a system like PS2 and how the Wii is almost "flipped" in favor of casual games with less emphasis on hardcore. That is all I was trying to say.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2008, 03:14:51 AM
The NES is best console to compare wii to since it started without 3rd party support. Playstation 1 isn't the best comparision because it was easier to switch to early because of the high cost of N64 carts.
What about the high cost of developing for the 360 and PS3? In the case of the PS3, there is also the high cost of Blu-ray to take into account as well. The Wii is much cheaper to develop for than its competitors, so isn't this just like how the PS1 was cheaper to develop for than the N64 and Saturn?
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 02, 2008, 11:38:20 AM
PS1 doesn't compare well since it wasn't that much cheaper relative to the graphical output that could be achieved on the other consoles.
Devs/Pubs these days are still dazzled by the HD/horsepower prospects despite the high costs. The Bigger & Better has become their norm, making Wii look like GBA development relative to GC/PS2/Xb development.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: vudu on May 02, 2008, 02:50:29 PM
I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check out [Pikmin, but] I cant because i cant find the damn game.
That's a damn shame. This is a situation that needs to be rectified quickly. I'm happy to loan you either (or both) of the games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on May 02, 2008, 02:59:18 PM
I try not to buy Nintendo branded games used either so even though now, more than ever, i want to check out [Pikmin, but] I cant because i cant find the damn game.
That's a damn shame. This is a situation that needs to be rectified quickly. I'm happy to loan you either (or both) of the games.
DEAL!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 02, 2008, 06:36:24 PM
Pikmin was fun I really enjoyed it for about a week, unfortunately I got stuck right away and had too many other games to play to stay focused on one for too long and got bored and sold it before I had a chance to finish it. I regret doing that now.
GP, and I thought you just liked pushing my buttons. J/K I guess we both misread each others posts.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 02, 2008, 06:41:49 PM
No animecyberrat. You got it right. GP likes pushing people's buttons. But it's nothing personal, I'm sure.
just kidding GP!
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 03, 2008, 08:27:36 AM
How could Pikmin be hard to find? It became a player's choice title, for crying out loud! If you can only find it used, then get it used then. It's a last gen title, so Nintendo has made all the money from it that they're going to at this point. Although, they may wii-make it for the Wii, or make a sequel... but don't hold your breathe on that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 03, 2008, 10:56:45 AM
Pikmin goes for about $20 for a used copy on eBay/Half.com and Pikmin 2 goes for AT LEAST $50 for a used copy on the same sites. Pikmin 2 is 1 of the more sought after Gamecube titles.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Adrock on May 03, 2008, 01:47:48 PM
There's a copy of Pikmin 2 gathering dust at work. I would've purchased it already if it had the instruction booklet. I just wanted to try either Pikmin because I completely ignored them when they first came out.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: EasyCure on May 03, 2008, 03:12:17 PM
How could Pikmin be hard to find? It became a player's choice title, for crying out loud! If you can only find it used, then get it used then. It's a last gen title, so Nintendo has made all the money from it that they're going to at this point. Although, they may wii-make it for the Wii, or make a sequel... but don't hold your breathe on that.
because other people like me wanted to pick up gamecube titles before they were ALL gone (the good games anyway) like they are now. I said i dislike buying nintendo games used from places like gamestop but sometimes its all you can do.
I've purchased both Donkey Konga Games, Star Fox Adventures and Assault, Killer 7 all used because i knew they'd be harder to find.
I planned on getting Jungle Beat (cuz Icecold is always raving about it), Irakuga (or whatever that shoot 'em up game is called that i also heard was fantastic), both Pikmins, Paper Mario 1000 year door, and i cant remember what else. I missed my chance though it seems. Out of 4 different Gamestops in my immidiate area, only one still sells GC games and most of the better ones have been sold. All you see now is madden games, harvest moon, and hello kitty lol. There are a few others but either they're games i already have (metroid prime, megaman collection, f-zero GX etc) or just utter crap (see: Helly Kitty again)
Other places like TRU and Best Buy are similar situations. It's either they ONLY have crap or nothing at all. Unfortunately i dont trust any sort of online retailer so don't bother recommending ebay and the like.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 03, 2008, 04:30:44 PM
half.com isn't bad for used games because they have very strict guidelines for what constitutes like new condition. If those guidelines aren't met, you the buyer are favored because the seller incorrectly listed the item.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mesu on May 03, 2008, 06:56:28 PM
Mesu: Fair points but my basic point had more to do with ratio differences between genres on a system like PS2 and how the Wii is almost "flipped" in favor of casual games with less emphasis on hardcore. That is all I was trying to say.
That observation might be true, but it's still too early in the Wiis life to know what its library will be like by the time it's over. Historically market leading console have a more balanced library than the other consoles. If you think of casual games as simply games created for people who play casaully, the PS2 did very well with casual games(it probably had more movie licence games that any console in history). I don't have a problem seeing that a system can have an emphasis but it has never been important enough for a market leading console to miss out on any popular genre that 3rd parties were making on other consoles. The statement that bothered me was this one:
Quote
This generation the Wii's bread N butter is casual games so I do not expect a ton of traditional games to show up to balance the casual games, it is just not historically shown. So, I hate to say it, you are just going to have to live with it, or buy another console.
It is a reasonable theory that Wii will get less traditional games because its newer buyers aren't traditional gamers, but it is still just a theory. There is no precedent for this happening historically. If you want to see an unbalanced console look at the ones that sold moderate to poorly. The Xbox sold about 1/5 of what PS2 sold and it's emphasis is alot more clearly defined than PS2s(the PS2 still got most of the 3rd party FPS the Xbox got.) The Neo Geo sold even less than Xbox and it's emphasis was even more clear. What was the PS2s emphasis anyways? "Traditional games"? Were non traditional game really popular until PS2 came along? Couldn't the 2600, NES, SNES, PS1s emphasis reasonably be called traditional games also? In 5 years Wii sports, Wii fit, etc will known as traditional games because the other consoles maker will include motion controls in their next consoles.
Personally I don't care if most traditional games never make it Wii. The only reason I care is I hope someday they make a Virtua Fighter for it. Not just for the sake me being able to play for the series to try to reach new audience. I see the series' presentation becoming more like tekken and less unique. The "hardcore" market already decided it likes tekken more. Virtua Fighter just need to find as many people as possible that naturally find it more compelling. I don't care if in 5 years the majority of gamers never heard of the all big francishes on PS3 and Xbox360 but I don't Virtua Fighter to have the same fate.
LIke I said I am fine with what kinds of games Wii is getting(Trauma Center is amazing). I don't like how 3rd parties underestimate the Wii audience. Nintendo fans have diverse tastes and so do a lot of the people buying a Wii as their first console(or first since the NES era). The PS2 had diverse games even and genres that weren't on PSone even though the audience was very similar.
What about the high cost of developing for the 360 and PS3? In the case of the PS3, there is also the high cost of Blu-ray to take into account as well. The Wii is much cheaper to develop for than its competitors, so isn't this just like how the PS1 was cheaper to develop for than the N64 and Saturn?
I am still trying to understand 3rd party developers. I think they knew about the high development costs of PS3 and 360 long before they launched and accepted it as inevitable. A lot of 3rd parties resented Nintendo for the way they were treated before the N64 launched and were looking for excuses to leave anyways. If some 3rd parties made the decision to split with Nintendo pre launch(because 3rd parties knew Nintendo was using carts well before launch) the results would show up on opposing systems faster than it would for the Wii. With the Wii the decsion can't start until after a consistent sales pattern emerges. Even last year a Sega executive said he though the PS3 would outsell the Wii eventually. Also remember that Namco made key games like Ridge Racer and Tekken early in Playstations life and they wanted the Saturn to fail because they were rivals with Sega in the arcades.
The most important thing to remember is ps2/xbox had around 85% market share so focusing on Wii instead of the HD consoles prelaunch would have been a large risk. While SNESes market share lead was significant, there was enough Genesis owners that wasn't a huge risk. Also Sony paid developers for exclusives and Nintendo seems to have policy against that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 03, 2008, 09:50:43 PM
I don't buy the high dev cost crap. Everything is going up, thats the way life works. As for PS3/360, look any company that made games for those systems at launch already SPENT the money on Dev Kits and already SPENT the money on developing game engines so a lot of the start up cost is negligible now. I also don't see how just making a game in HD raises the cost that much. I mean it requires what more powerful hardware to develop the games on, well isn't that included in the SDK? Any dev who has the PS3 SDK already has the hardware to make PS3 games in HD.
I mean sure PS3/360games likely do cost more to make, but considering all factors involved it can't be so much higher that they don't make money on the games.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 03, 2008, 11:17:46 PM
The latest Ubisoft fiscal year results revealed the fact that Wii games can cost $ 7.8-9 million US to make... and PS360/PC titles $ 18.8 - 28.2 million US to make. That's a very significant difference.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on May 04, 2008, 02:44:18 AM
Rat, the cost of the tools is negligible. The real cost comes from the need to make more complicated art assets which takes work and work is expensive.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 04, 2008, 03:31:07 PM
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I mean sure PS3/360games likely do cost more to make, but considering all factors involved it can't be so much higher that they don't make money on the games.
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$ 7.8-9 million US to make... and PS360/PC titles $ 18.8 - 28.2 million
But not so much higher that making games for the others can't be profitable otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. Plus don't the PS3/360 Games cost more so they make up a little bit of that with each disc sold. Overall It can't be too big of a difference it doesn't balance out somehow.
I didn't say it doesn't cost more, and sure from those numbers it is almost double, but you have to take into consideration that a game developed for PS3 or 360 can easily be ported to the other console and the PC with no more effort and right there open up a larger market.
But KRD you forgot to mention that a lot of games reuse the same character models, like the sports games, the FPS Sequels, etc, so those costs are already spent. Especially if you refer to Ubisoft or EA who certainly do reuse likely at least 50% of the last game in the series, those actual costs are cut down more.
Kairon, those numbers were from Post launch reports for games developed in he launch period. By now a lot of those costs have been recouped.
I figure it is easily cheaper for a new dev or a small studio to jump into Wii than the other two, but for the BIG studios who make the BIG games were are talking about, those devs already spent most of the cost required to "get in the door" and now are only having to recoup individual costs.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 04, 2008, 04:32:09 PM
Were those really launch games rat? That was commenary from the fiscal year that just ended, which didn't include any launch titles.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 04, 2008, 04:47:46 PM
The year JUST ended means games released LAST YEAR, which was the first year of PS3 sales. 360 is way past launch and I am sure their costs have gone down quit a bit since then.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 04, 2008, 05:02:34 PM
The year JUST ended means games released LAST YEAR, which was the first year of PS3 sales. 360 is way past launch and I am sure their costs have gone down quit a bit since then.
Maybe not "launch titles," but perhaps we can agree on the "first wave" of games?
Either way, the Wii is just a couple million units from passing the COMBINED totals for the XBox360 and PS3 worldwide. That's gotta count for something, right?
And like KDR said, it's this HD graphical quality that makes content creation expensive. You have to make models, then you have to rig the models, then you have to animate the models, then you have to texture the models... and who knows what else. I'm not an artist, but I remember from E3 2006 that one speaker at a confeence was esaily forseeing a future with 200 artist teams, and another was saying that if anyone had the resumes of 20 good artists, give them to him immediately and he'd hire them all. Art is becoming a real pain-in-the-buttocks.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Mashiro on May 04, 2008, 06:38:50 PM
"And like KDR said, it's this HD graphical quality that makes content creation expensive. You have to make models, then you have to rig the models, then you have to animate the models, then you have to texture the models... and who knows what else."
That's the same for every 3D game ;)
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 04, 2008, 06:52:29 PM
Yeah, but with increased graphical fidelity and the push towards realism(the most typical application of improved graphics), you have to work harder to avoid the uncanny valley.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 04, 2008, 07:38:00 PM
Ok so we agree they are more expensive, I never contested that, I just don't buy the argument that PS3/360 games AREN'T Profitable. I am sure that NBA Live 2007 recycled a lot of code and character models from NBA Live 2006 and I am sure the same can be said for COD 2 to COD 3, etc.
I think I presented myself as to be on the other side of this as I truly am. I no doubt think Wii has the customers to buy games, and I do doubt think that any game that is profitable on PS3 would be MORE profitable on Wii.
But I don't think people can just assume PS3 doesn't make money and say it is stupid for developers to make games for it that aren't on Wii. It can be just as costly to port down a game made in HD as it can to make it from scratch right?
It's like Hollywood, once they got went Digital and HD and CGI, etc, they didn't want to turn back. Major studios invest in all this fancy hi tech gadgetry and now they want to make the most of it so they get their moneys worth.
I can see how if a developer spends the money to invest in making a big budget hi definition, graphical masterpeice that they spend time and money and effort trying to realize a artistic or what have you vision, then it makes sense they would want to continue using their fancy HD tools to keep moving forwards. I mean making a hollywood movie on film is probably cheaper than using HD/Digital cameras, but the extra cost won't stop them from putting in the extra effort.
I guess it is more like this, I don't agree fully with the developers not wanting to put their biggest and best efforts into Wii, I would like to see games like Lost Planet, Oblivion, COD4, etc, on the Wii, but I can also see how some companies would see Wii as a step forward and to steps backwards.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Kairon on May 04, 2008, 08:18:19 PM
I can see how if a developer spends the money to invest in making a big budget hi definition, graphical masterpeice that they spend time and money and effort trying to realize a artistic or what have you vision, then it makes sense they would want to continue using their fancy HD tools to keep moving forwards. I mean making a hollywood movie on film is probably cheaper than using HD/Digital cameras, but the extra cost won't stop them from putting in the extra effort.
Yeah, that's true. You'll always have visionaries who want to push as far in any direction as they can no matter what the consequences, including the directions that benefit from more and more graphical fidelity. Squaresoft and FFXIII, for example. Or Konami's MGS4. Those are games where the developers have a clear agenda for no-holds-barred graphics.
However, business sense usually trumps those. I'm looking forward to changing market economies that make Wii versions of most multiplatform games a near-necessity. Just look at Guitar Hero III. Despite a laundry list of lacking features (including hardcore favorites DLC and... I dunno... STEREO SOUND) the Wii version of the game has had the strongest long-term sales, has climbed to 2 million, and can stand toe-to-toe against the 360 version (and head-and-shoulders above the PS3 version). Again, with the Wii on-track to match or surpass PS2 sales worldwide, there's simply no way to ignore that. I mean, we're getting Sonic Unleashed and Force:Unleashed, two games that we feared would be excluded for graphical fidelity concerns, but that ultimately show that the market dictates game placement.
There will always be games on the fringes (Like the Xbox and GC exclusives from last gen), but by and large I'm anticipating market dominance for the Wii, just delayed at that.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: animecyberrat on May 04, 2008, 08:31:40 PM
That is why I think so many Wii games are PS2 ports. So developers can raise some money fast to be able to fund their bigger projects, which should start showing up on Wii in the near future.
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I mean, we're getting Sonic Unleashed and Force:Unleashed, two games that we feared would be excluded for graphical fidelity concerns, but that ultimately show that the market dictates game placement.
Two games I am greatly anticipating as well.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2008, 06:53:28 AM
I just don't buy the argument that PS3/360 games AREN'T Profitable.
Yes 360/PS3 games have the potential to be profitably, but the profit margin is much smaller than it is for the Wii because of the costs and because (at least with the PS3 anyway) the install base is much smaller. As a result, the Wii is the system that developers are more likely to make a profit or at least break even on, so I think this will be the console where we'll see the greatest risks taken this generation. In fact, that's already the case with a number of titles, such as Red Steel and No More Heroes. Expect to see more stuff emerge over the next year or two.
Profiting isn't really enough in most cases, most companies want to profit GREATLY and that's easier to do on the Wii.
Title: Re: Why are people still whining that there aren't enough games?
Post by: KDR_11k on May 05, 2008, 07:49:42 AM
Recycling assets saves money but since you can't recycle last-gen assets fior this-gen games you have to pay a lot more for the HD jump than the usual sequels.
