Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Caterkiller on March 29, 2016, 08:36:34 PM
Title: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on March 29, 2016, 08:36:34 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/xHpvgCl.jpg) Actually I don't know that for sure but I couldn't find a Star Fox Zero topic all its own.
I'm not good at those big fancy first posts and I'm not going to even try. Actually scratch that, I bet I could make a killer one but aint no body got time for that. Instead here are my impressions from Wondercon this passed weekend.
So I got to play Star Fox Zero on Sunday. As you read my impressions keep in mind I am a HUGE Star Fox fan but I hated Command, hated Adventures, and boy did I hate Assault. I didn't even enjoy Assaults first stage or multiplayer which all reviews seemed to rave about. Didn't fool me at all.
1) Motion Control. The Nintendo Rep told me I can recenter the reticle at anytime with Y or pressing on the left stick. During the rail segments I found that I didn't need to use the motion too much and mostly played it like classing Star Fox. One thing I realized after playing is that almost every preview and trailer makes the game look particularly boring because no one is trying to dodge anything. Has anyone else noticed this? I watched others play as well and realized they are so focused on trying to aim with the motion they can barely focus on moving the ship. When I played the game, I made it look as fun and as frantic as you remember Star Fox 64 to be. I was juking out enemies, constantly barrel rolling and whipping around trying not to get lit up. Occasionally I would fly away from the enemies to grab items while targeting towards the enemies to hit 2 birds with 1 stone, then I would snap the targeting reticle back into place for the classic feel.
During the boss segments is when the motion and first person view become more mandatory. Gameplay wise I didn't buy into it until I actually played it. I was using the Land Master which felt as great as you remember and with the screen zoomed out, I could keep an eye on the dangerous environment and drive around the giant sand worm while still shooting its weak points. I noticed I didn't have to totally wait for its idle phase if I was good enough. Hovering over his giant swinging body, boosting out of the quick sand or barrel rolling away from it's giant claw grab was very fun. It did take a while to get used to though, because I was using the first person view to steer which threw me off way too many times. If I were a little more coordinated I could imagine it would have felt very satisfying. Once I actually did get the hang of it the monster killed me.
The Nintendo Rep told me you can turn the motion off. What he meant by that is you can assign motion to a shoulder button, then when you hold down that button the gyro is activated. I didn't try this method but I think it would be ideal in some cases if you are accidentally using motion when you don't want to.
The Gyro works well, as well as Splatoon, but it is going to take some getting used to thats for sure.
2)All Range Cinematic View. When this was first shown and up until Sunday I just thought why? It's supposed to be cinematic but to me it just made things look slower and boring, not only that what gameplay purpose did it really serve? I realized that being able to watch the dangerous environments like quick sand or the electro shield while targeting the enemies without having to fave it head on is actually pretty cool gameplay wise. It's a little tough going from the different view points but I can see why it works and it really does add something new to the old SNES/64 formula.
Then I watched someone fight Pigma and he played somewhat like me, actually barrel rolling and trying to out maneuver enemies. Looping around, making sharp turns and u-turning did actually look pretty cinematic when I got to see a full fight from someone who played a little more like Star Fox should be played. Plus with that view point I could see Peppy and the other guys in the back ground blasting away at enemies waaaaaaaaaay off in the distance, so far in fact I wondered if Fox could actually go there himself in real time gameplay. I'm pretty sure you can. With the dynamic view points it really did make things look like it was all on such a grand scale.
3)Voice Acting. I know people like to give Star Fox 64's acting a hard time but that acting was genuine, when I listen to those lines being delivered it maybe B-movie quality but it sounds downright believable. Star Fox 64 3D was a mess. It was as if the directors pushed the actors to make the lines way too over the top and cheesy as if that was one of the high lights of the original 64. This game doesn't do that however. It's still a B-movie but it once again sounds genuine and while a few lines I feel are off given certain situations, for the most part in the 3 stages I got to see everything sounded just like I would like it to.
4) Visuals. I love it. The game being rendered in 60fps twice didn't allow this game to be as pretty as it possibly could but I think it looks just great! The mountains, the oceans and the machines look really nice. The characters inside their ships as well as their profiles all look really well done to me. The environments are much more open and varied than 64 thats for sure and the draw distance is pretty huge. Low health shows physical damage all over the arwing, you can see your lasers splash the water from really far away and I'm sure a ton of other little nice details that aren't coming to mind. After my first session with the game I came away absolutely convinced that this is the Star Fox that we've been waiting for since Star Fox 64. Everything about it feels natural and in line with what I expect from Str Fox. Nothing I played feels forced. We'll see about that though, I didn't get to play the Gyro Copter.
I don't want to over hype it but I went from cautiously optimistic to completely sold in a day. Too bad about no VS multiplayer though.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: ShyGuy on March 29, 2016, 11:46:30 PM
I'm Rocking Slippy and his creepy uncle as my avatar!
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 30, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
Most of the Star Fox talk was in the E3 2015 thread, were there was interest in the game as well as the Star Fox related Talkback topics but nobody felt like making a thread on this part of the board until now.
Anyway, the game looked fun to me back at E3 and new footage looks awesome. Of course that shouldn't be a surprise since like I said back at E3, Nintendo games always improve from their original E3 showings. And that extra delay from Fall to Spring really payed off as well. Easily looks like it'll be the true sequel to Star Fox 64 I've wanted for almost 20 years.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: ShyGuy on March 30, 2016, 01:02:04 AM
Psst, you guys wanna see some deep space action?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on March 30, 2016, 02:07:02 AM
As someone who has never really been a Star Fox fan, and a Wii U owner that would like the system to have games...
Yeah, I have zero interest in this title.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on March 30, 2016, 01:33:10 PM
Having a button to activate the gyro is a pretty good idea. Too often with motion controls I run into problems where the game thinks I wanted it to do something when I didn't and I guess I moved the controller without intending to. It's funny that part of the marketing of motion controls was that they were intuitive but for me it was a steep learning curve. After 20+ years of there being no concerns with moving controllers as I play you're suddenly telling me I have to keep the damn thing still. Having some sort of button to say "okay I'm in motion control mode now" is an idea that seems incredibly obvious in hindsight.
Still the design approach to this games seems to be "incorporate motion controls and the second screen into the gameplay" and I don't put up with Miyamoto's post-senility infatuation with controller gimmicks anymore. I would be very interested in a Star Fox game where the intentions are to just make a great Star Fox game and not try to "prove" the validity of controller features that the vast majority of the gaming population doesn't give a **** about.
And here's a weird thing - I'm suspicious of positive opinions about new Star Fox games. The series has just gone so far off the deep end that the people that are still fans of it seem desperate to have it return to glory so it feels like they're going to cut each new game a lot more slack than they otherwise would to deceive themselves into thinking it's back to being good again. I call this the Sonic Phenomenon as you'll note that with every new Sonic game that is completely ripped to shreds in reviews that the Sonic fanboys come out of the woodwork and defend it and act like the Sonic game du jour is a return-to-form for the series. You can't believe a Sonic fan. They want Sonic to be good again so badly that their opinion is tainted by their hope. Same with Star Fox fans. Some day it might be the same with Metroid fans (please NO!) There is a difference between a good Star Fox game and a Star Fox game that just isn't as terrible as the worst entries in the series but I don't trust a really die hard Star Fox fan to differentiate.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: supermario2k on March 30, 2016, 03:49:02 PM
Having a button to activate the gyro is a pretty good idea. Too often with motion controls I run into problems where the game thinks I wanted it to do something when I didn't and I guess I moved the controller without intending to. It's funny that part of the marketing of motion controls was that they were intuitive but for me it was a steep learning curve. After 20+ years of there being no concerns with moving controllers as I play you're suddenly telling me I have to keep the damn thing still. Having some sort of button to say "okay I'm in motion control mode now" is an idea that seems incredibly obvious in hindsight.
Still the design approach to this games seems to be "incorporate motion controls and the second screen into the gameplay" and I don't put up with Miyamoto's post-senility infatuation with controller gimmicks anymore. I would be very interested in a Star Fox game where the intentions are to just make a great Star Fox game and not try to "prove" the validity of controller features that the vast majority of the gaming population doesn't give a **** about.
And here's a weird thing - I'm suspicious of positive opinions about new Star Fox games. The series has just gone so far off the deep end that the people that are still fans of it seem desperate to have it return to glory so it feels like they're going to cut each new game a lot more slack than they otherwise would to deceive themselves into thinking it's back to being good again. I call this the Sonic Phenomenon as you'll note that with every new Sonic game that is completely ripped to shreds in reviews that the Sonic fanboys come out of the woodwork and defend it and act like the Sonic game du jour is a return-to-form for the series. You can't believe a Sonic fan. They want Sonic to be good again so badly that their opinion is tainted by their hope. Same with Star Fox fans. Some day it might be the same with Metroid fans (please NO!) There is a difference between a good Star Fox game and a Star Fox game that just isn't as terrible as the worst entries in the series but I don't trust a really die hard Star Fox fan to differentiate.
So what constitutes a "good" Star Fox game? There have only been what, five games in the series? From what I can get reading your post it sounds like you disliked all but maybe one of them? It sounds to me like what you want is a complete remake of the first Star Fox game and nothing else am I right?
There isn't really much to go on so you have only four "true" Star Fox games if you separate Adventures into its own category that leaves a 50-50 split between the "good" and the "bad" except Star Fox 64 was nothing more than an upgraded remake of the SNES game so really there has only been one good Star Fox game by your logic. Damn. So basically all you want is Star Fox 64 remade in HD? I am also curious what makes the other two games "bad" in the first place?
Back on topic: I am very excited for this game, maybe more so than Zelda since we have plenty of Zelda to go around but so little Star Fox.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on March 30, 2016, 04:31:56 PM
Well Ian you may question my enthusiasm here but I think I'm right on with my impressions. I honestly went in looking for something to get mad at. With Adventures I don't even really count that, since it's not a true Star Fox gameplay wise. With Assault, I was down on it the very first time I played it because it felt wrong. Not that it just felt different from SF64, it just felt wrong and played wrong and not even the first level had me convinced. I played it up until the end of the story out of curiosity and knew from start to finish it was garbage. I'm pretty sure you can find my impressions from when I was in... high school? Oh god.
With Command I gave it a chance but anyone and everyone knew that no rails missions and forced stylus controls weren't doing that game any favors.
And same with Sonic, I know I got super excited for Heroes and Sonic 4 but I think I'm the only Sonic fan who does not like Colors, Unleashed(day levels) or Generations. I got hyped for the look of Sonic Lost World but when I actually played it, once again it just wasn't right. Sonic needs to feel like Mario, like I'm controlling a 2 legged character, not a mech or a car in Sonic's image.
So yeah, embrace my impressions. Knowing you over the last decade I bet that you would completely eat up the levels I played. Well everything but the boss fights because of the dependance on motion. I just hope the rest of the game holds up to the stages I got to experience.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on March 30, 2016, 04:40:35 PM
Having a button to activate the gyro is a pretty good idea. Too often with motion controls I run into problems where the game thinks I wanted it to do something when I didn't and I guess I moved the controller without intending to. It's funny that part of the marketing of motion controls was that they were intuitive but for me it was a steep learning curve. After 20+ years of there being no concerns with moving controllers as I play you're suddenly telling me I have to keep the damn thing still. Having some sort of button to say "okay I'm in motion control mode now" is an idea that seems incredibly obvious in hindsight.
Still the design approach to this games seems to be "incorporate motion controls and the second screen into the gameplay" and I don't put up with Miyamoto's post-senility infatuation with controller gimmicks anymore. I would be very interested in a Star Fox game where the intentions are to just make a great Star Fox game and not try to "prove" the validity of controller features that the vast majority of the gaming population doesn't give a **** about.
And here's a weird thing - I'm suspicious of positive opinions about new Star Fox games. The series has just gone so far off the deep end that the people that are still fans of it seem desperate to have it return to glory so it feels like they're going to cut each new game a lot more slack than they otherwise would to deceive themselves into thinking it's back to being good again. I call this the Sonic Phenomenon as you'll note that with every new Sonic game that is completely ripped to shreds in reviews that the Sonic fanboys come out of the woodwork and defend it and act like the Sonic game du jour is a return-to-form for the series. You can't believe a Sonic fan. They want Sonic to be good again so badly that their opinion is tainted by their hope. Same with Star Fox fans. Some day it might be the same with Metroid fans (please NO!) There is a difference between a good Star Fox game and a Star Fox game that just isn't as terrible as the worst entries in the series but I don't trust a really die hard Star Fox fan to differentiate.
So what constitutes a "good" Star Fox game? There have only been what, five games in the series? From what I can get reading your post it sounds like you disliked all but maybe one of them? It sounds to me like what you want is a complete remake of the first Star Fox game and nothing else am I right?
There isn't really much to go on so you have only four "true" Star Fox games if you separate Adventures into its own category that leaves a 50-50 split between the "good" and the "bad" except Star Fox 64 was nothing more than an upgraded remake of the SNES game so really there has only been one good Star Fox game by your logic. Damn. So basically all you want is Star Fox 64 remade in HD? I am also curious what makes the other two games "bad" in the first place?
Back on topic: I am very excited for this game, maybe more so than Zelda since we have plenty of Zelda to go around but so little Star Fox.
There is some big speculation here on what I think. I would see the first two Star Fox games as the good ones. Then they shoehorned Star Fox into Dinosaur Planet (which is a pretty meh game to begin with and not really a proper Star Fox game) and then outsourced Star Fox for Assault and the whole thing went downhill. On the Gamecube Nintendo treated Star Fox as an afterthought. I suppose what I would want to see would be where Star Fox would have ended up if Nintendo had continued to treat it as one of their main series and worked on a Cube game themselves. I would guess we would have gotten something like Rogue Leader. Okay, so if that happened and you wanted to make a console Star Fox in 2016 what should that be like? Not just a Star Fox 64 clone but a natural progression of that type of gameplay (like how Star Fox 64 expands on the SNES game's gameplay).
And the problem is that Nintendo and I differ greatly in our attitude towards unconventional controls. Nintendo has embraced the concept over the last ten years as a way to introduce new ideas into videogames. I personally think the whole thing is a smokescreen to mask a lack of ideas or a lack of willingness to truly innovate behind novelty concepts that wear out their welcome quickly. Miyamoto in particular has the idea that if the controls are fun to use then the game is fun but I see controls as pure functionality. I get no thrill out of controlling a game in an unconventional way, I want the most responsive and flexible scheme to play the game. So the whole approach here just goes against what I want. It doesn't matter that it's Star Fox or whatever. I'm now at the point where if Nintendo is going to go the novelty controls route for a game, I'm not interested.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on March 30, 2016, 05:04:21 PM
And same with Sonic, I know I got super excited for Heroes and Sonic 4 but I think I'm the only Sonic fan who does not like Colors, Unleashed(day levels) or Generations. I got hyped for the look of Sonic Lost World but when I actually played it, once again it just wasn't right. Sonic needs to feel like Mario, like I'm controlling a 2 legged character, not a mech or a car in Sonic's image.
I hate to derail the thread, but what's wrong with Sonic Colors and Unleashed? I actually felt like Unleashed Wii had some of the best controls in the series, and treated Sonic like he should be treated at hyper-fast speed- which, I suppose, is your issue. However, Colors did a better job at toning down the speed and emphasizing the platforming.
I would say the problem with Star Fox, and the problem with Sonic, is that there really only has been one or two good games in their series and the series has been unable or just flat out refuses to return to the mechanics present in those games. Unfortunately, there is no "better version" of classic Sonic gameplay (though Freedom Planet parallels it closely), but with Star Fox, it has been outclassed by Sin and Punishment in just about every way except free-range mode, where it is then outclassed by Rouge Squadron.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on March 30, 2016, 06:38:31 PM
I haven't played a Star Fox game before, so naturally I have no real interest in a new one. Maybe if they finally offered real co-op...
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on March 30, 2016, 07:17:39 PM
I haven't played a Star Fox game before, so naturally I have no real interest in a new one. Maybe if they finally offered real co-op...
Really? Didn't you collect every N64 game released in North America? How have you been able to sit on Star Fox 64? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I didn't say I didn't own any Star Fox games, just haven't played them. ;) I don't have Assault, but I own all the others, including the 3DS version of 64. I can't play everything, so something has to fall through the cracks, which usually ends up being the games that appear less interesting / more iffy.
I'm a bit surprised you remembered this.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Dim on March 31, 2016, 05:37:16 AM
I'm glad to see that the reception to Star Fox: Zero during previews has become increasingly positive, and - as all those extremely thorough GameXplain videos show - it has definitely improved visually from its underwhelming debut at E3 last year.
However, I'm still not convinced. I might get crucified for this (way to start off coming to this forum, haha), but I don't like Star Fox 64 anywhere near as much as most people seem to. Which is weird, because I feel I have a lot of affection for Star Fox generally, and consider it one of my favourite B-tier franchises. I didn't play 64 at the time of it's release (I would have been, what, two years old!?), but did manage to pick up a cheap copy when I was about ten - but it did nothing for me. When I bought Assault, however, I fell in love - yes, it's been about a decade since I've played it, and I can admit that the ground-based levels aren't very interesting, but I loved the (all-too-few) on-rail sections and the whole visual spectacle of it all.
I later played Adventures and Command - both of which I enjoy to a certain degree on their own merits - and even re-played 64; in fact, only a few days ago I picked up 64 3D and played through all of the levels again, just to see if I feel more favourable towards it after all these years. I don't. I think it's good enough, but its Arwing combat isn't as good as that in Assault, and it's nowhere near as good as some other third-person 3D on-rail shooters, like Sin & Punishment.
From everything I've seen, Star Fox: Zero seems a lot like Star Fox 64-2 - and I don't want that.
(Also, can I just saw that I really don't like the voice acting in Star Fox 64 (and now Zero)? I hate to talk about 'characterisation' in Star Fox games - because, I mean, jeez, they're STAR FOX games - but I really preferred the characterisation - gah - of Fox and everyone else in Assault. I have a lot of fond memories of Assault. I really liked its multiplayer, too).
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 17, 2016, 08:32:54 AM
Got my copy pre-ordered and excited to pick it up this Friday. The game looks fantastic and I'm extremely hyped for it. It looks like anything I ever hoped for in a sequel to Starfox 64.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Order.RSS on April 17, 2016, 12:41:39 PM
Oh I never even realised some people were down on the visuals. It looks great to me, very excited to pick both it and Star Fox Guard up as soon as they release. But maybe I'm not the most discerning fan here, only played Star Fox 64 which I quite enjoyed and Star Fox Adventures which - barring a few excruciating obstacles - I was really hyped on too. Heck, Adventures' first few worlds still look gorgeous to me.
The only thing I hope will be easier in Zero than 64 is switching between paths. In 64 it was really easy to completely miss an opportunity to pursue another branch of the story, I don't think I ever even saw all the levels on the left path.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 19, 2016, 08:51:29 PM
The game has been getting a lot of praise. Screen shots are bland, and it has framerate issues, but overall the reactions I've seen have been pretty positive. Famitsu gave it 9/9/8/9.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 19, 2016, 11:47:28 PM
So it's not as good as Final Fantasy XIII, then? How disappointing.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 20, 2016, 01:55:13 PM
And now it's getting pretty terrible reviews.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 20, 2016, 02:14:16 PM
In other words, it's a typical Star Fox title? How disappointing.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: TOPHATANT123 on April 20, 2016, 02:53:52 PM
Ehh I'd say the majority of reviews tend towards positive.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 20, 2016, 03:07:18 PM
Right now on GameRankings it's average is at 71.69% which is not completely terrible but is a pretty middling review score. It suggests a mediocre title and certainly not the return-to-form for the series that was hoped for. Oddly enough the current average for Star Fox Guard is higher! Now it has like half the reviews so it's not quite comparing apples to apples but it's still funny that that the bonus game tossed in for free has the better score.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Enner on April 20, 2016, 03:56:15 PM
Star Fox Guard getting the better score is not unexpected when Star Fox Zero is asking you to be the pilot and the gunner of an attack helicopter, jobs that are separated for two people in real life.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 20, 2016, 04:37:29 PM
You ever have someone try to set you up on a blind date and when you ask what she looks like they give you all sorts of vague pseudo-compliments about specific features or shift the conversation to her personality but will not just outright say "yeah, she's a real babe" because they can't? That's what Star Fox Zero reviews are reading like to me in regards to the controls. I'm asking "are they good?" and I'm getting lots of "there's a learning curve but they work pretty well". No one is saying "these controls are great!" because they can't, because the controls aren't.
When I was 18 I would have been much more willing to work with an odd control scheme to find a hidden gem but I don't have the patience for that now. And I certainly don't with motion controls after fighting with them during the Wii generation. The games reviewers said had good motion controls didn't control all that well in my eyes, let alone the ones where I'm told I have to approach with an open mind. And there are lots of games out there across lots of platforms and for an adult in his 30s I don't have the time I had to play 15 years ago. I have to prioritize my gaming time so "learn the controls" doesn't seem like the best use of my free time when there are all these other games, including many made by Nintendo, where I just pick up the controller and figure it out in a minute because it's all using standard conventions.
It's all very ironic because Nintendo touted motion controls as more intuitive than buttons when they launched the Wii and yet here they're increasing the learning curve with less intuitive controls. "You'll learn to like them" sure as hell wasn't the original marketing of motion controls and suggests that Nintendo missed the plot with these gimmick controls at some point. I find it very odd though that they're doing that NOW towards the end of the Wii U's life when it's no secret that the Gamepad didn't take off and "proving" the concept at this point is going to have no effect on the Wii U's fate whatsoever. Though perhaps they're well aware that this concept is on its last legs and this is the last chance to incorporate a control scheme like this in a game. Miyamoto in particular comes across a true believer in "innovative" controls and may have wanted to see some of these ideas make it into a full game.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 20, 2016, 06:12:31 PM
Did you play Sin and Punishment- Star Successor, Ian? Because that's a really good game with really good motion controls.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 20, 2016, 07:15:30 PM
Did you play Sin and Punishment- Star Successor, Ian? Because that's a really good game with really good motion controls.
That game has Classic Controller support so I probably just used that. It's been years so I honestly can't remember.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 20, 2016, 08:53:55 PM
I see.
I think motion controls work best when input is restricted. Cabal shooters, and the like.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 20, 2016, 09:25:54 PM
I guess it was just the first batch released this morning. IGN gave it a 7.5, GameSpot gave it a 7.0, but then Polygon refused to even review it and all the others I saw were equivalent to a 5/10. I still want to play it.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 20, 2016, 09:53:37 PM
I still want to play it because I think I'm going to end up loving the controls. The reaction I had with Splatoon was also a big factor.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: broodwars on April 20, 2016, 10:43:29 PM
I still want to play it because I think I'm going to end up loving the controls. The reaction I had with Splatoon was also a big factor.
Nice retro Jazz logo. :D Not my favorite logo (obviously), but it does have a certain charm to it.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: sudoshuff on April 21, 2016, 06:49:52 PM
Since there is often an inverse relationship between the things "traditional gamers" like and what I like, the middling to low review scores may have actually caused an uptick in my interest. Especially since most of the criticism revolves around the control scheme, which I think I will be able to get used to.
I guess it was just the first batch released this morning. IGN gave it a 7.5, GameSpot gave it a 7.0, but then Polygon refused to even review it and all the others I saw were equivalent to a 5/10. I still want to play it.
Wait...Polygon refused to review it? That actually makes me want to play it even more...
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 21, 2016, 07:18:58 PM
Refusing to review a game, unless it's like some pro-Nazi game or something, is pretty stupid. Play it and if you don't like it, let us know why. Isn't that what a review is for?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Enner on April 22, 2016, 02:34:43 AM
If what is in question is the Polygon appraisal, the author did detail the aspects of the game that lead to refusing to playing the game enough for a proper review.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Order.RSS on April 22, 2016, 07:50:02 AM
Saw elsewhere that the reviews are supposedly 'bad', but honestly I'm mainly seeing a whole bunch of 7s and 8s. Even metacritic names it mixed/average with a 72 rating. That's not even that low though right? Might be stubborn here, but my main takeaway is simply that the controls take getting used to at best, or just kinda don't work well at worst. Don't think that'll be an issue for me since I'll be playing this in co-op anyway.
Anyone here give it a go yet? Hoping to pick it up soon myself. :)
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 22, 2016, 11:53:42 AM
Totilo at Kotaku supposedly figured out a way to make the game's controls more bearable. But you can go read it on their review because I fell like if I post them here it's just going to incite another long tired rant by the usual suspects.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 22, 2016, 12:43:57 PM
I read Kotaku's review and their description of the controls turns me off as much as the descriptions of Kid Icarus Uprising's controls turned me off of that game. It sounds so unwieldy and unintuitive that the only way anyone would come up with it is to try to "prove" the validity of a controller idea that hasn't caught on. The way they describe it sounds so bad that I wonder if the devs themselves actually enjoyed playing the game with it. The design wasn't "make a great game" it was "make a game using this goofy controller idea Miyamoto came up with".
Looking at two screens at once seems complicated enough but then you also have to keep the controller still when you don't intend to move the crosshair. I figure while my head is bobbing up and down between the TV and Gamepad that the controller is probably going to move a bit. Why not make me peddle a stationary bike while you're at it? And then you fight the controls to play a rehash of an N64 game? Like all this trouble doesn't even have some industry-changing game-of-the-year behind it? All you get is the same sort of thing that a console from 20 years ago did better because the controls weren't needlessly weird?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on April 22, 2016, 08:26:08 PM
Saw elsewhere that the reviews are supposedly 'bad', but honestly I'm mainly seeing a whole bunch of 7s and 8s. Even metacritic names it mixed/average with a 72 rating. That's not even that low though right?
The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common. So, a 72 average is pretty low based on the inflated scores given out by most reviewers.
I don't think most Nintendo games appeal very much to the average reviewer though, so I don't put much stock in them.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 22, 2016, 10:08:52 PM
I don't put any stock into reviews of games with alternative controls since the whole Wii thing.
Anyway, I played Corneria, and I just tilted the GamePad to aim at enemies while looking at the TV screen the entire time. Worked wonderfully. Then I faced off in all-range mode against a boss, and using both screens to get into position to aim and take down the boss's weak points was a lot of fun. I got 276 points out of the 300 for a gold medal my first go-round.
I think the Gyrowing sections are a bit slow, but once you get through them the first time they go by much faster. Also, the Walker was confusing at first, but I learned to hold the ZL button and the left stick to strafe enemy fire and take down foes without needing to use the GamePad screen.
Really enjoying this one.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Oedo on April 22, 2016, 10:28:25 PM
There's a meaningful difference between a game that is not good and a game that is highly divisive that an aggregate review score can't capture. The Legend of Legacy fell into that trap last year. For most people, either you loved it like I did or you could not stand it (and I get the feeling that Star Fox Zero is headed the same way). That's not the same as a game that the majority of people can agree is just decent, but an aggregate review score treats them the same.
As for the game itself, after spending some time with it today, yeah, the heavy integration of motion controls is a questionable design decision. This definitely does not fall in line with Nintendo's often repeated goal of making games that are accessible to a wide audience. Kids or non-gamers are not going to pick up this control scheme easily, if they can do it at all. I can see that side of the criticism. Taking the controls as a given, though, they work fine. I haven't messed around with the sensitivity settings yet, but even on default, the motion controls are tight. You can move to a target within your cockpit view quickly without completely veering off in that direction if you try to do it too fast. The two screens part takes some getting used to, but overall I'm having fun playing this way so far. It'd be really fun in co-op (at least for the person with the gamepad).
Then I faced off in all-range mode against a boss, and using both screens to get into position to aim and take down the boss's weak points was a lot of fun. I got 276 points out of the 300 for a gold medal my first go-round.
Man, I don't think I've gotten particularly close to gold in any of the stages so far. I'm just happy to avoid bronze right now. I guess picking up the controls is even easier for a lot of people than I might give it credit for.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 22, 2016, 10:31:03 PM
Well, really there's just one medal to get for high score along with the other four (one for getting three gold rings with the medal icons on them), and I don't know how to get the others. I think one was because I did a Mission Accomplished instead of a Mission Complete.
Anyway, if you beat your score but don't get gold, that original score is the bronze one, and the newest score is silver. I hope that made sense! :X
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Oedo on April 22, 2016, 10:38:33 PM
Ah, I thought since they display the score you need for gold next to that trophy that there was a set score for silver and bronze too. That makes sense though, I probably didn't catch it because I haven't replayed a level yet.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 22, 2016, 10:44:20 PM
Yeah, there are five medals to earn each level, and only one is for a high score.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: sudoshuff on April 22, 2016, 11:38:08 PM
The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common.
Review inflation is definitely a real thing! I'm not exactly sure why it is happening though. For students, grade inflation is all correlated with how strong of a signal grades are for scholarships, careers, and grad school. I wonder if game scores climb up because readers prefer more positive outcomes?
Back to the topic, I've played the first few levels and the controls haven't prevented me from completely enjoying the experience. My strategy: shoot and aim using the TV screen as much as possible and only look down at the game pad if it is clear you need a precision shot.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: MagicCow64 on April 23, 2016, 12:28:37 AM
My concern is that there seems to be a split between "the controls have a steep learning curve" and "the controls have a steep learning curve and the level design is lackluster and the non-arwing vehicles suck."
Any feedback on that aspect? Also, I'm confused about the actual game structure. Can you replay levels at will to find alternate exits and try for medals, or do you have to start from scratch from the beginning of the campaign? It sounds like you can't do certain things on the first run, which is confusing.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 23, 2016, 02:03:52 AM
The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common.
Review inflation is definitely a real thing! I'm not exactly sure why it is happening though. For students, grade inflation is all correlated with how strong of a signal grades are for scholarships, careers, and grad school. I wonder if game scores climb up because readers prefer more positive outcomes?
It's because the video game industry is far less mainstream than that of other graded forms of entertainment, therefore the need to sell a product is higher than the level of satisfaction or artistic integrity. Consider some of the largest releases of the past year, in which reviews of games needing patches, additional content, or overly reliant on franchise power without much forward thinking received unwarranted scores despite these elements. The consumerist hype is far more important a factor in video games.
That's an awfully cynical view, however. Sometimes, games are well-made from artistic and technical levels but lack in other areas. Should they be considered bad just because their gameplay is weak? Does the story make up for this? These are all elements that should go into video game reviews, but I highly doubt that is the actual case for inflated scores. If so, Star Fox would be receiving even lower scores because of its technical instability and overall lack of originality.
I honestly wonder why people were clamoring for another entry in the franchise, or even obsess over it at all. It's honestly one of Nintendo's weakest IPs and only features one game that is truly beloved- and even then, its more of a nostalgic love of the atmosphere of the game and not really its gameplay. At least, that's what Nintendo seems to think, since they've taken painstaking steps towards recreating the look, sound, and story of Star Fox 64.
Then again, I get all hot and flustered over Paper Mario, so my opinion probably means jack ****.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 23, 2016, 02:31:36 AM
So far for my first playthrough it has been Corneria>Sector Alpha>Area 3>Zoness>Sector Beta>Titania. Titania has had the best boss fight overall and it's crazy because it was in a Landmaster.
I've played with all of the different vehicles and I have to say every one of them has a learning curve. I had trouble aiming properly with the Arwing and All-Range Mode was a bit of a mess my first time. Evading enemy fire with the chicken walker was a bit clumsy but locking on and rolling to the side works very well. Ditto with the Landmaster. The Gyro was ok but the slow exploratory mode it brings wears out pretty quickly.
I think reviewers might be right. I'm not seeing much in the way of creative level design, and the fact that it took me until the sixth level to find a boss battle that awed me is a bit troubling. There's really not much meat on the bone and even less variety on the gameplay. I've yet to encounter extended moments of dogfighting. The game wants to hurry you into the next moment so badly that it misses what's so great about the series. Just get out of my way and put some enemies on the screen so I can blast them for a high score.
I don't want to be all negative though. As I said, the boss battle on Titania was genuinely fun, and I think I'm going to love finding ways to get high scores on some levels, specially in places like the stealth level in Zoness. The aiming wasn't too bad, but I wish the game didn't force its precision aiming on the GamePad. My current gaming setup on Wii U doesn't leave me much room to get comfortable and be able to have the GamePad and the TV screen within range of my eyes. So far it's too much looking down at the GamePad and I'm still learning how to play the game.
Ultimately it was't the motion controls that annoyed me at first, but the constant nagging voices of Peppy and Slippy. Yes, damnit you don't need to keep telling me to aim with the motion controls, I got that the first 50 times you said it. Unfortunately those grating voices look like they're here to stay unless I mute the GamePad audio. Which sounds like a great idea really.
I'll keep at it. I think if things get better there's still a chance I get hooked on the game.
EDIT: Also, Jeeeeez there is no need for so much exposition at the beginning. How did 5 brief paragraphs in 64 turn into 5 plus minutes of story here?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 23, 2016, 07:03:32 AM
These controls are bad? I mean I know it takes a bit to get used too, but these are what ruined the game? Yeah they seem to be docking this game for some other reason.
I loved the Star Wolf level. When you fly really close by them and it goes slo-mo for a bit, they did a good job making it cinematic. I'm happy with it.
(And the SNES Walker looks ridiculous)
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on April 23, 2016, 09:39:44 AM
"FINALLY...THE FOX HAS COME BACK TO NIN-TEN-DO!"
The wait is over. Just picked up the game and as soon as this episode of "Jessie" is off I'm firing up this bad boy and we are going to see what's what.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 23, 2016, 01:11:05 PM
I am eating this game all up.
I don't get the comparison to Kid Icarus, while I found that games controls to be ok, I do remember getting cramped up from time to time and just having a difficult time navigating.
There is a learning curve here, but I don't think it's steep at all. Play like normal Star Fox and just tilt the pad ever so often when you need motion. The biggest issue is assigning u-turn, bombs, summersault, all to the stick and buttons. I mess up when I'm in a tense moment and all I want to do is break but I press so hard on the stick I waste a bomb in the process.
People seem to get really thrown off with the cinematic perspective. That I can understand. My advice, just play those portions almost completely in 1st person, occasionally looking at the 3rd person perspective to keep an eye out on hazards.
I binged about 6 hours yesterday. I haven't done anything like that since I was in high school. This game has almost completely delivered in my opinion. All I would need is a VS multiplayer to make my heart whole.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 23, 2016, 01:58:52 PM
I beat the game last night, and the final battle was intense, tough, and fun. Really made me feel like I accomplished something great when I beat Andross (spoiler: Andross is the final boss. Shock. Awe. :) )
I also got my first medal for a high score. 303 on Corneria 1. And I was going to go do the alternate mission that run. Glad I decided against it at the last second!
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 23, 2016, 03:57:49 PM
Looking over my recorded gameplay from yesterday, I wasn't that bad really. I think my current gaming setup makes playing this game a bit uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 23, 2016, 04:06:52 PM
Hey are we talking about one of the most underrated 3DS titles in the opinion of Radio Free Nintendo?
Kid Icarus was awesome, but I couldn't play it without leaning the 3DS on something. After that, NO issues.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: ThePerm on April 23, 2016, 06:57:35 PM
I rarely trust reviews. It could be getting 7s because its graphic style. The gameplay looks up my alley. I'm sure reviews will fall into several camps
completely enjoy the game (the fanboy review)
Don't like the game at all (the i don't like Nintendo review)
Like the game, but the controls are awkward (The I don't want to move around review)
The I like the game because of the controls review (the gimmick whore)
Like the gameplay, but the graphics are a weird mixed bag. (the graphic whore review)
The I saw a video of it at e3, never played it, but I still did a positive review of the game (the unprofessional journalist)
The I saw a video of it at e3, never played it, but I still did a negative eview of the game (the unprofessional journalist 2)
The I'm too young to understand a game that isn't Call of Duty Review (the noob review)
This game is kinda fun, but how do I build a cottage? review (the minecrafter review)
I'm sure I could come up with a few other camps.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 23, 2016, 07:13:19 PM
Those are some nice generalizations there which ALWAYS lead to good things.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: King of Twitch on April 23, 2016, 08:04:20 PM
Actually it looks every review of the last 10 years. Can someone make a pie chart graphic out of it?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: ThePerm on April 23, 2016, 09:42:26 PM
I used to work for a survey company.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: King of Twitch on April 23, 2016, 10:10:14 PM
I asked if you could make a pie chart, not for your resume. Are you high right now?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Khushrenada on April 23, 2016, 11:09:43 PM
I asked if you could make a pie chart, not for your resume. Are you high right now?
You said someone. I wasn't the someone who wanted to go that far... at least not on this computer.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Shaymin on April 24, 2016, 10:30:07 AM
Well played, Khush. Well played.
/me resumes his cursing of Amazon for randomly deciding to lump shipment of this with Mighty Never Coming Out
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: sudoshuff on April 24, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
Ok, what's the deal with the Star Fox Guard "Special Demo"? If you click in the lower right corner of the main menu it offers to take you to the eshop to download the "Special Demo" for Guard. When the eshop launches it says "demo currently unavailable".
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: King of Twitch on April 25, 2016, 02:10:18 AM
I was the original Bob the Builder.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Nile Boogie Returns on April 25, 2016, 07:23:24 AM
So Ive only played the first 3 levels. I keep playing Cornaria over and over again until I get the controls right. Once I feel like they click, I'll proceed through the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 25, 2016, 11:32:33 AM
So Ive only played the first 3 levels. I keep playing Cornaria over and over again until I get the controls right. Once I feel like they click, I'll proceed through the rest of the game.
Advice.
In all range mode if the camera is fixed play it like a 1st person shooter using the cinematic view as somewhat of a "rear view" mirror. Don't try to navigate from that thing. What I've noticed is because of that cinematic view the enemies are much more relentless. The AI is much more dynamic and unforgiving because now you can always see what the enemy is doing. Thats the real benefit of that fixed view. Once you understand that it's actually a really really good idea and makes the enemies much more challenging and the controls much more engaging.
Though since you are replaying Corneria over and over you won't have to worry about this fixed view until a few stages later.
If anyone still hates the cinematic fixed camera then I believe they just don't understand how to use it. This way of playing Star Fox is just superior to everything we had before it. I just played SF64 yesterday and realized that control wise Zero is affectively Star Fox's equivalent to Mario or Zelda going 3D. If only 9 different things weren't assigned to the R stick.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: sudoshuff on April 25, 2016, 12:01:15 PM
If only 9 different things weren't assigned to the R stick.
Yeah, this is actually my biggest problem with the controls.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 25, 2016, 12:43:31 PM
I like that you can do somersaults and U-turns with the X and B buttons respectively. Doing those with the sticks just feels unnatural after being used to one button press actions in past games.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 25, 2016, 01:13:14 PM
I like that you can do somersaults and U-turns with the X and B buttons respectively. Doing those with the sticks just feels unnatural after being used to one button press actions in past games.
Doing it with the sticks is supposed to mimic the N64 c-buttons I suppose. Doing it with the X or B is great but its when you are trying too boost forward while flying up or down is when you accidentally do an acrobatic move. The summersault and u-turn already have buttons, why do they have to be on the stick as well?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 25, 2016, 02:19:32 PM
If anyone still hates the cinematic fixed camera then I believe they just don't understand how to use it.
No, just no. This isn't the argument to take when trying to defend your point. There are plenty of legitimately questionable issues with target view. So much so that the suggestions popping up that you switch cockpit view to the main screen during this mode to offset some of its jankiness may prove the mode isn't perfect and there's reason to dislike it.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 25, 2016, 05:41:19 PM
If anyone still hates the cinematic fixed camera then I believe they just don't understand how to use it.
No, just no. This isn't the argument to take when trying to defend your point. There are plenty of legitimately questionable issues with target view. So much so that the suggestions popping up that you switch cockpit view to the main screen during this mode to offset some of its jankiness may prove the mode isn't perfect and there's reason to dislike it.
No, you just no.
This reminds of my friends back in high school who couldn't even make it to Talon IV in Metroid Prime because the game had the worst FPS controls they ever experienced. They just didn't understand and didn't want to.
I explained it clear enough. Many of the bosses are much more relentless and have attacks that come out of no where. Same with the random fodder as well. They will shoot these streaking missiles from way the heck away and if you're constantly facing one way you'll never know whats hitting you. Like the final boss, I don't know how one is supposed to dodge those lasers with a traditional 3rd person view.
You and everyone else complaining are probably still trying to use that fixed view to navigate. Play those sections as if it were a 1st person shooter, be it on the tv or the game pad. Glance at that fixed view ever so often to get an idea of what is going on in the environment.
It works really well if you approach it properly but if the player is focusing on that fixed 3rd person to maneuver and fight then no wonder they can't handle it. This view and the controls gives you a ton of spacial awareness that previous Star Fox titles could never allow. The enemies are free to be faster and much more complex in their AI because now we can always see them.
Get good and use it right. It took just a couple of hours to understand this and now on my medal runs I feel like an ace.
I can't expect everyone to understand it as quickly as I did but what ever fears I had about this game were completely unfounded. As a matter of fact the biggest flaw in the controls as I said earlier is assigning everything to the right stick. The extra screen and motion make this a full evolution for Star Fox's controls in away that honestly makes the old way completely dated.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 25, 2016, 07:20:05 PM
It's a hard sell to ask people to learn a control scheme that doesn't seem intuitive at first when there are tons of great games released each year where they can just pick up the controller and immediately get what's going on. There's a lot of competition and games are not cheap. Plus Star Fox 64 had controls you just picked up and immediately got. So not only is Nintendo asking gamers in general to adapt to non-traditional controls, they're asking fans of this very series to do so when the most popular entry in that series did not. I can very easily conceptualize how Nintendo could make a Star Fox game that doesn't need these controls because they made them already 20 years ago and those games played great.
Star Fox in particular is a poor choice to experiment with control schemes because the series has been in need of a comeback game. There isn't the wiggle room to ask people to approach with an open mind because they've already written the series off and need something with a bit more instant gratification to get back on board. Experimentation would be better suited in a more established IP that isn't already skating on thin ice in terms of relevancy. The Star Fox series now STILL needs a comeback game because this control scheme has resulted in a mixed reception, which may not have been the case if they just made it control like Star Fox 64 and put their creativity towards the level design instead of the controls.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 25, 2016, 07:52:20 PM
Kid Icarus Uprising had far FAR worse controls and still has a more positive reception by critics.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Evan_B on April 26, 2016, 12:39:06 PM
Star Fox Zero is not as cool as Kid Icarus Uprising and has a more negative reception by critics.
That's what I thought you said.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 26, 2016, 01:06:51 PM
I think many critics need to take a step back and realize that any new control system takes time to learn. I recall a magazine review in the early days of dual analog for FPS controls that just slaughtered them. At the time dual analog was still in its infancy and new, and many players didn't take the time to want to learn them, or it was difficult to adjust. I think it's the same thing with Star Fox Zero's controls. If we stuck with what we were accustomed to without wanting to learn new controls, we'd still be using a d-pad.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2016, 02:42:00 PM
Plus Star Fox 64 had controls you just picked up and immediately got. So not only is Nintendo asking gamers in general to adapt to non-traditional controls, they're asking fans of this very series to do so when the most popular entry in that series did not.
I think you are underestimating the time it took to learn how to use the then-new analogue stick on the N64 controller. It certainly took me a lot longer than a few minutes to get used to the control in Super Mario 64, and no one I've known picked up on it quickly either. Plus, 3D games were a new thing back then so that took some time to get used to as well.
Also, in 1997, analogue stick control was unconventional. If Nintendo made traditional controls for Star Fox 64, it would have used the D-pad instead of the analogue stick.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 26, 2016, 06:14:02 PM
Plus Star Fox 64 had controls you just picked up and immediately got. So not only is Nintendo asking gamers in general to adapt to non-traditional controls, they're asking fans of this very series to do so when the most popular entry in that series did not.
I think you are underestimating the time it took to learn how to use the then-new analogue stick on the N64 controller. It certainly took me a lot longer than a few minutes to get used to the control in Super Mario 64, and no one I've known picked up on it quickly either. Plus, 3D games were a new thing back then so that took some time to get used to as well.
Also, in 1997, analogue stick control was unconventional. If Nintendo made traditional controls for Star Fox 64, it would have used the D-pad instead of the analogue stick.
By the time Star Fox 64 came out analog stick controls were expected and had been used in multiple major N64 titles. The only way you wouldn't get it is if it was your first N64 game. What game has controls like Star Fox Zero?
And the thing with the analog stick was that it was an awesome idea and took off right away and has been the standard ever since. Not every controller idea takes off like that. Very few do. Motion control came, had a fad level of success, and is now pretty much gone, except for the odd project from Nintendo which seems more like desperately pushing a failed ideology instead of using what actually works. The d-pad and analog stick and shoulder buttons all took off and became standard because they were great ideas that worked really well. Motion control ran its course because the concept itself is flawed and the market was tired of it.
It's hard to compare Nintendo controller innovations that became standard and ones that didn't. They aren't really the same. Not all ideas are equal and Nintendo is capable of fantastic ideas and horrible ones. The mixed reviews of this game and the general dislike of motion controls from hardcore gamers, who all loved the analog stick and embraced it quickly, suggests that the specific nature of motion controls is why it is unpopular, not the general concept of new ideas or the closedmindedness of reviewers. Good innovation is good, bad innovation is bad. It's isn't a black and white concept where if you don't accept every new concept in videogames that you're closedminded and just want the same thing again and again. Innovation in itself is not good, it is merely something with the potential for greatness.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
By the time Star Fox 64 came out analog stick controls were expected and had been used in multiple major N64 titles. The only way you wouldn't get it is if it was your first N64 game. What game has controls like Star Fox Zero?
This question makes no sense. Star Fox 64 does not control like Super Mario 64. What game released before Star Fox 64 controls like Star Fox 64? You're speaking in generalities, and so plenty of other games use motion like Star Fox Zero.
Also, there is no controller or method that is right for every game. Not every game uses an analogue stick or shoulder buttons, even today. It was also easier for people to accept new control methods back then because there were a lot less established standards than there are now. It's still good to have motion as an option, as it works exceptionally well for some games, although it is unfortunate that they have been forced into some games where they don't belong as I feel that has tainted them. But of course you'd rather just ignore those and all the people who like them and push your own view as the accepted standard. You've gone on record saying you don't like motion controls even if they're good, so that says all we need to know about you. It doesn't make them bad just because you don't like them.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on April 26, 2016, 07:44:44 PM
I don't see how the hell Star Fox 64 controls any different than Star Fox on the SNES other than that it uses an analog stick instead of a d-pad. Left still goes left, right still goes right, it just uses a stick instead if a d-pad. It took me all of 10 seconds to figure out how to play it the first time. Any unfamiliarity with the analog stick was ironed out in other N64 games. Star Fox Zero wants you to look at two screens at once while controlling one screen with traditional inputs and one with motion control. Numerous reviews mention it as a learning curve while I don't recall any Star Fox 64 reviews saying that.
Nintendo can use whatever controls they want but my views on motion controls are not the minority. So they can use them but the reviews and sales will suffer as any such game is going to be a "love it or hate it" thing. If they're going to go in with full knowledge that that's the likely outcome and are okay with that, fine. If they're trying to resurrect a series in need of it, this approach is not going to work. Did they want to make a comeback game for Star Fox or create a proof-of-concept for an untraditional control scheme? I think you can only make one or the other.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on April 26, 2016, 08:04:04 PM
I won't get tied into the same conversations with you again. Regardless, the point is your original statement that the controls in Star Fox 64 are conventional has been shown to be incorrect. Admit it. Be a man.
A Batman.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 26, 2016, 09:38:37 PM
Star Fox 64 was my first game for the N64 and despite getting all the way to Venom on the hard path in Star fox SNES, adjusting to the stick was difficult to me. During that time I remember thats when my mom and my favorite video gaming cousin quit video games, the idea of the stick in and of itself was too much for them to handle.
I'm pretty sure a large part of that blue ocean crowd was pretty pleased when all they initially saw on the Wii remote wa a D-Pad.
Of course thats just the problem of some people, they can't hang with the sticks and I don't blame them. Some people can't hang with Splatoons motions or Star Fox's and I don't blame them either but if either games didn't have motion I'm certain they wouldn't play as well.
Star Fox's biggest issues are assigning too many things on one stick. The motion is really the best part about it. I'm going through the game stage by stage collecting every gold medal and each time I realize that Miyamoto was right on with these controls(accept the right stick). This is Star Fox's next level but because they are more complex then most things out there it's only natural that some people won't try it or won't even try to open their minds when given the chance.
It's no different than 2D Mario and 3D Mario. Some people just don't want to deal with all that extra "baggage" of 3D.
On a side note but somewhat related, I found the following very fascinating.
My daughter asked to play Mario 3D World with me at 3 years and 6 months of age. The first few days, she would only walk, like our moms did with Mario World back on the SNES, you know never running? I would pick her up and run to the flag poles.
After a week she understood running and jumping. Within the first month she could make it to and beat the 1st castle without the super leaf.
Today she is 4 years old and 1 month almost exactly. I kid you not(except for that clown boss and that stage where you have to walk along the tilting rainbow blocks in lava), she can get all the way to World Bowser and defeat him without the super leaf. I watch her and it's amazing! We can actually play 2 players and it isn't ultra frustrating for me.
BUT you know what she can't do? She has an extremely hard time with NSMBU and Super Mario World. Playing on a 2D plane and timing jumps almost completely eludes her. She understands the run button in 3D World but when I tell her to do the same in the 2D games it just doesn't compute. So she just doesn't play those games.
I think that says a lot about how we as gamers perceive things that are new and sometimes strange. My 4 year old knows how to crouch dash and long jump in a 3D Mario, but put her in a 2D setting and she plays one level before she gives up because it's too hard. How many purists out there could never leave the mouse and key board for the FPS's and how many are out there that refuse that because they grew up on dual analog and it just gells with their mental systems?
I will never forget how Metroid Prime of all things was slammed in various magazines and that game rating TV show on G4. Maybe not slammed but there was no way that game deserved 6's and 7's if you played it the way it was meant to be played. Didn't you have to hold R to look up? Yeah that did not go over well back then.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 26, 2016, 09:42:52 PM
I don't understand the need for flicking the sticks to somersault and U-turn when they're already assigned to buttons. The fact that the tutorial mentions the sticks instead of the buttons first is confusing to me as well. I say this as a middle-of-the-road game designer. It just seems counterintuitive to me, especially for a Miyamoto game. Then again, I doubt he had his hand in EVERY decision. hehe
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 27, 2016, 12:22:50 AM
Add me to the growing list of people who got stuck at that godawful Andross battle. To be honest, I kinda got stuck on a few boss battles previous to Andross. I cannot for the life of me understand how little margin for error this game gives you ,specially when there's so much you have to deal with and be aware.
The game has stopped being fun and it's not starting to feel like a chore. Now amount of patience for the controls can help with that. Which is disappointing because the game has its moments. I've had 2 play sessions and my opinion now is worse than when I started.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Triforce Hermit on April 27, 2016, 05:38:05 AM
Are people really having problems? I mean I've died a few times here and there, but that was par for the course when I first started SF64. The only annoying controls are the stick flicking and lock-on during Star Wolf fights.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Order.RSS on April 27, 2016, 12:04:06 PM
Picked up both the main game and Star Fox Guard. The latter is surprisingly fun so far! It's a clever little idea and there seems to be a lot of content in it.
Star Fox Zero... Well it feels really cool so far, I love the transforming from Arwing to Walker and back. But the controls are very complex. So far I keep pressing Y to reset the reticule and kinda winging it. Definitely feels like co-op will be the way to go here. I'm also finding it easier when switching the screens, but that leaves little time to look at the cool scenery haha.
Honestly so far I just feel kinda inept when playing this, but I expect to get used to it.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: ThePerm on April 27, 2016, 04:46:16 PM
Caterkiller awesome story about your daughter. It wasn't long ago that she was just born. She's already 4? Time flies. I haven't even played Super Mario 3d world yet. Amazing.
I got Splatoon for my birthday at the end of March, but I haven't played it yet because my nephews will want to play. They're 4 and 6. I've played Super Mario maker a lot though. I can off screen play that. Maybe I'll let them play.
I helped my older nephew play Minecraft. It was a chore, but fun. He kept killing Steve and losing all the items. He kept telling me he knew everything there was to know about minecraft. Except he never played before. All he knows from about Minecraft is from toys that are at the store. It's pretty cute. I don't even know if they advertise on TV. What he did know, he probably learned some things from the box backs. I learned a lot about x-men that way.
I wonder when the minecraft movie is coming out?
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on April 27, 2016, 09:42:06 PM
Soren would you believe me if I said I could beat Andross without even taking a hit?
I completely admit that the stick to U-Turn and Summersault can be really frustrating because maybe you want to boost but you perform tricks instead and miss your target.
Advice for Andross: 1) Use the First Person view to find the blue entrances of course. Don't fly into them, land on the ledges with the walker and drop in. 2) Don't fly with the Arwing around Andross. 3) When he raises his fist to punch or clap shoot his weak point for a few seconds and then RUN don't fly to one end of the arena. 4) You'll be facing a wall when you run to the opposite side, use ZL targeting or U-Turn input to turn the Walker around instantly. Sometimes you will want to turn the walker with the R Stick and regrettably in the heat of the moment it will do a barrel roll >:( 5) Once you destroy a hand, don't try to get that double laser, just fly out a window immediately. 6) Andross will shoot lasers all over the arena. Fly towards the camera(the Arwing facing you in the TV) and just lightly push up and down to avoid the lasers. They are extremely difficult to avoid if you are flying along side the arena or using the First Person view. 7) Fly back in a hole and keep an eye on where that double laser is. Either get it as you drop in as a Walker or don't get it at all unless you know you have enough health to take the tractor beam hit. 8) Still no need to fly, run/boost away from his attacks. 9) When he sucks you in use your bombs to get him off you quickly. Aiming with the laser is hard but thats the only other way. 10) Once his hands are destroyed don't fly around. Just do 2 or 3 barrel rolls do dodge his head rush attack and spit panels. 11) Shoot him in the glowing parts and when he is dizzy now feel free to fly to the opposite side or run to hit the sore on the back of his head.
I'm telling you it can be done without getting touched. Well the tractor beam is one that is really hard to avoid.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: pokepal148 on April 28, 2016, 01:21:06 AM
To be fair not getting a sequel would probably be a better rate then what Spyro got considering this screenshot came from Spyro 3.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on April 28, 2016, 08:41:03 AM
I beat Andross last night and it felt very rewarding. I basically had the same strategy you mentioned above Caterkiller. For most of his hand attacks I was able to damage him just before he would inflict damage on me. The tractor beam is totally unfair because it gives you a very short time to damage him the margin for error is extremely tight. If your aim is off for a second or two, forget it. You'll be thrown across the room.
A problem I have is that there's just so much to do in a finite amount of time. I don't have the controls mastered yet so I'll end up doing something stupid like transform back into the Arwing before I press "-" to put target mode back on the main screen and then I feel like my whole flow is gone. Then I don't have enough time to fly out of the hole and when I do make it out I'm struck by laser that's going round at a fair bit of speed. I realize I'm talking about the final boss and there has to be a level of difficulty to make it rewarding. But I feel like the game isn't helping me get better aside from "memorize his patterns as you die a lot and you'll make small bits of progress". I get more knowledge from forums and stuff I can actually use.
I...like the game. I don't love it yet. But at least I walked away from the final fight with a desire to keep playing the game and to get better at it. I'll put it down while I play Guard for a bit and the come back later to start playing all the different missions with the knowledge I have now.
Also, the Star Wolf battle on Venom is pretty cool. I want more of that.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on April 28, 2016, 01:52:07 PM
Stupid here quit Arcade Mode at Venom thinking it wouldn't force me to start over from the beginning. It did. Dammit!
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Phil on May 01, 2016, 04:21:58 PM
Got all 70 medals from high scores, mission accomplished victories, and miscellaneous tasks. Beat Arcade Mode several nights ago to earn the Sound Test.
Star Fox 64 was my first game for the N64 and despite getting all the way to Venom on the hard path in Star fox SNES, adjusting to the stick was difficult to me. During that time I remember thats when my mom and my favorite video gaming cousin quit video games, the idea of the stick in and of itself was too much for them to handle... [buncha other good stuff]
I don't really have anything to add, just wanted to say what a well-expressed post you have here. It just goes to show how people have different preferences and tendencies which lead to different control styles fit for different people. A good example of why custom controls should have been a standard by now, and who knows why they're not. Myself, I've never really liked dual-analogue, which may have something to do with my willingness to embrace the Wiimote.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Enner on May 05, 2016, 02:23:54 AM
A good example of why custom controls should have been a standard by now, and who knows why they're not.
One explanation that I sorta buy is that having control mapping options is an additional and complex thing to design, implement, and check for quality. Emphasis on the "sorta" because nearly all PC games have been featuring custom control mappings for years without much issue.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on May 05, 2016, 04:17:06 PM
One explanation that I sorta buy is that having control mapping options is an additional and complex thing to design, implement, and check for quality. Emphasis on the "sorta" because nearly all PC games have been featuring custom control mappings for years without much issue.
It depends on the input in question. From what I understand, analogue inputs such as sticks, motion, IR pointer, etc. can be complicated to program and are not really interchangeable, so providing options for more than one of those would take some extra work. That said, I don't think it's an exorbitant amount of work, and it seems like something worthwhile as it would accommodate more players, resulting in games appealing to more people. However, I do recall the devs of Conduit 2 stating that when they decided to add in Classic Controller support, it took only a day of work.
In the case of buttons however, from what I have seen, assigning functions to buttons is very simple code, and so allowing for mappable buttons is extremely easy to do. Therefore, there's no real excuse for games to not offer custom button settings at the least.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Ian Sane on May 05, 2016, 04:39:17 PM
I think there should be a certain level of button mapping at the console level. Yeah as Mop pointed out something like analog controls aren't interchangeable but if I decide to map the A button to the B button that is really easy. Like in an emulator you can just map the controller buttons to whatever you want. It's a digital button, on/off, so if I map it to another digital button it should just work. If they put that in the OS itself then you gain some flexibility even if the developer doesn't offer it.
In Windows I can go into the setting and flip my mouse buttons and every program just works because as far as they know they're receiving a left mouse button click, even though I'm actually clicking the right mouse button because I configured it as such.
I can see a console maker not doing it because it would take some work to implement and it isn't really a feature that's going to draw sales. Or I could see them being concerned about people getting all confused when the game says "press B" and they actually have to press A because they remapped the buttons and forgot about it. To me I wouldn't need the visual instructions to adapt to my remapping but Nintendo probably would care about that. It's an extra layer of polish and professionalism that makes the feature a lot more expensive to implement and much more of a pain in the ass for devs to deal with.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Mop it up on May 05, 2016, 04:42:11 PM
It's funny you mention that, because the Virtual Console on Wii U allows for button mapping which could present that exact problem in games like Zelda OoT which tell you that A is the action icon and Z is targeting.
I guess it sounds like new games should work more like VC games!
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: DreamyWarrior00 on May 10, 2016, 03:56:12 PM
I haven't played much yet just the first couple of stages. I'm planning on streaming it the gameplay so I want to be surprised alongside the viewers. But the first stage was so reminisce of StarFox 64 which I absolutely loved. It seemed smooth and crisp from the first stage though.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 10, 2016, 11:26:19 PM
I kind of like the controls, and I kind of hate the controls. I *almost* get it...then again, I've only played for 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: broodwars on May 27, 2016, 01:56:28 AM
I picked up a $40 Used copy from Amazon over the weekend, and I just finished my 1st playthrough. Overall, the game is...OK. It's not great, but it's not horrible (the quintessential 6.5/10, really). When the game focused on fast-paced Arwing action (and even the first Landmaster stage I ran into on Fortuna), I thought it generally succeeded. On the flipside, I thought the Gyrowing stage I played through (covert action on Z) was boring as ****, with extremely slow movement and very little of interest to do. As for Andross, sure I died a few times on him but generally thought he wasn't particularly hard.
So...yeah...the controls. The best I could say of them is that I "tolerated" their existence and tried to use the motion controls as little as possible. I really could have done without several boss fights relying entirely on the motion controls working 100% in walker mode (where the camera goes nuts). I didn't come out of the game angry at the controls like many reviewers did. I'm just completely unimpressed, as the gimmicky gamepad crap didn't really feel like it added anything to the game, and it made some routine actions like aiming more annoying than they would be with traditional controls.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Caterkiller on May 31, 2016, 09:42:10 PM
Wow at the above. I guess Star Fox Zero is a success after all.
Title: Re: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum
Post by: Soren on September 06, 2016, 06:15:56 PM
I've been looking for excuses to pick this game back up and I'm coming up short. Re-visiting areas and finding new worlds just isn't worth the time having to get re-acquainted with the controls. I found this deep dive interesting and ultimately I agree with most of it. I agree that there's a good game hidden under all the cumbersome controls and I think that's why I keep thinking about going back to it. It just seems like it's going to be a chore. I think I'd rather re-play Affordable Space Adventures.
